New to mapping in Perth, WA

[Arie Paap]

Hello,

I've just discovered osm and would like to introduce myself. I live in Stoneville[1] and work at Edith Cowan University in Joondalup[2] so travel a fair distance every day (by varying routes). It seems that there has been a lot of work getting roads mapped in Perth with a lot of it sourced from Yahoo imagery but there doesn't seem to be much detail or annotation in a lot of areas. I am interested in contributing to the map in Western Australia but I'm uncertain about tagging for a lot of things. For example, I used to live in Greenmount and drove around part of the suburb to survey road names. Most of the roads don't have a source tag and most don't have gps tracks. The odd road has source=Yahoo. So I'm wondering is it worth adding source:name=survey to the roads I've named. And in general is it worth trying to remedy the lack of source information.

I've read through some pages on the wiki (in particular: Map Features, the Australian tagging guidelines and the Western Australia specific page - which seems very out of date) and I'm struggling to see a clear path. I've also read quite a few threads on this list and the main talk list and it's apparent that there isn't a consensus about consistent tagging, but I would like to know what other people on this list are doing, particularly in WA.

Regards,

Arie.


[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.8722&lon=116.1686&zoom=14&layers=B000FTF (mostly unmapped)
[2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.7474&lon=115.773&zoom=14&layers=B000FTF

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[Liz-25]

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Arie Paap wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I've just discovered osm and would like to introduce myself. I live in
> Stoneville[1] and work at Edith Cowan University in Joondalup[2] so travel
> a fair distance every day (by varying routes). It seems that there has been
> a lot of work getting roads mapped in Perth with a lot of it sourced from
> Yahoo imagery but there doesn't seem to be much detail or annotation in a
> lot of areas. I am interested in contributing to the map in Western
> Australia but I'm uncertain about tagging for a lot of things. For example,
> I used to live in Greenmount and drove around part of the suburb to survey
> road names. Most of the roads don't have a source tag and most don't have
> gps tracks. The odd road has source=Yahoo. So I'm wondering is it worth
> adding source:name=survey to the roads I've named. And in general is it
> worth trying to remedy the lack of source information.
>
> I've read through some pages on the wiki (in particular: Map Features, the
> Australian tagging guidelines and the Western Australia specific page -
> which seems very out of date) and I'm struggling to see a clear path. I've
> also read quite a few threads on this list and the main talk list and it's
> apparent that there isn't a consensus about consistent tagging, but I would
> like to know what other people on this list are doing, particularly in WA.
>
> Regards,
>
> Arie.
>
>
> [1]
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.8722&lon=116.1686&zoom=14&layers=B000
>FTF(mostly unmapped)
> [2]
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.7474&lon=115.773&zoom=14&layers=B000F
>TF

welcome to OSM
if you have surveyed, please note it as surveyed, or if you wish, gps
source:name=survey is very useful

hopefully one of the WA mappers will contact you and give you somehelp with
the nitty-gritty of mapping because it is easiest person-to-person
of course if you ask here, we guarantee at least 2 opinions

:)


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[Andrew Gregory]

I originally unintentionally replied directly to Arie, who also  
unintentionally replied directly to me! I must watch those Reply-To's more  
carefully!

For the list, here is my response to his original question, his reponse to  
that, then my reponse to *that*. Whew! :)



I'm fairly new to OSM myself, having discovered it in June. I live NOR and
have been filling in empty parts of the map near to me. In fact, pretty
much all the grey roads you see in the northern suburbs around Joondalup
I've traced in from the Yahoo photos. I'm currently surveying my way
through all that. Last week a did Mullaloo east of Dampier Drive. The week
before was Kallaroo.

I try to get all the street names (of course), plus any phone boxes, post
boxes, schools, bus stops, parks. I take particular interest in walkways
and footpaths that join roads (as opposed to those that run alongside
roads). I don't think there's any other map that shows those and they are
very useful for walkers and bike riders. My own suburb in particular had
already been surveyed (it had all the street names), but no walkways. Not
any more :)

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:35:49 +0800, Arie Paap <wildmyron@...> wrote:

> I'm wondering is it worth adding source:name=survey to the roads I've  
> named. And in general is it worth trying to remedy the lack of source  
> information.

If you've surveyed something, it's always a good idea to document that. It
shows that someone has been there and looked. I don't worry about
unsourced roads, although if I go there and make a GPS track, then I might
tweak the road if necessary and add a source=survey.

> I've read through some pages on the wiki (in particular: Map Features,  
> the Australian tagging guidelines and the Western Australia specific  
> page - which seems very out of date) and I'm struggling to see a clear  
> path. I've also read quite a few threads on this list and the main talk  
> list and it's apparent that there isn't a consensus about consistent  
> tagging, but I would like to know what other people on this list are  
> doing, particularly in WA.

I've been focusing on the Map Features page, and paying less attention to
the Aus/WA pages (but not ignoring them). For areas where there have been
confusion, I've tried to match what other people have mapped before me,
but really there's no way to go wrong. So long as someone can go to where
you've surveyed and agree with what your tags say, then I don't see a
problem. If someone decides all my highway=footway;foot=yes should be
highway=path;foot=yes then there are automatic tools around to make that
change. I just try to be consistent.



Arie later replied to me, clearly intending it to be sent to the list,  
which appears not to have happened:



That does help, I've had a look at some of the suburbs where you've been  
editing and I like the result. I'm mostly collecting data / info while  
driving though so footpaths and bus stops etc can be a bit tricky. Some  
things that I haven't settled on which I'd appreciate comments on (from  
anyone who cares to respond!) are:

1) Tagging roads residential in commercial areas - there doesn't seem to  
be a better option and this is how roads have been tagged in Osbourne Park  
(as an example).

2) Lots of roads that are dual carriage way (like Ocean Reef Road) aren't  
at the moment, but making them dual carriageway is tricky with junctions.

3) Flares at intersection - in particular tagging with name= on all the  
different ways that make up the road looks really messy. Can someone point  
to a good example of this?

4) Tagging roundabouts with name= . I've seen this in quite a few places  
on the map but I'm sure I read advice to not do so somewhere - can't  
remember where. Map Features and the Aus tagging guidelines are  
non-committal on this.

5) Postcodes - I understand this is an ongoing project. As an example, see  
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.9192&lon=116.1059&zoom=14 
Darlington's postcode shows up, but Mahogony Creek's doesn't even though  
the Administrative boundaries for both suburbs are part of relations  
specifying the postcode.

While writhing this I just discovered  
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_JOSM which has some advice  
relating to the above points. Several of the sections on that page don't  
seem specific to JOSM.

I've just surveyed and uploaded roads for the area around the Ocean Reef  
Road extension. I still need to add names and classify roads but I'd  
appreciate comments on other obvious problems.



My reply:



1. IMO highway=residential is the best option. It most closely matches the  
sort of road it is, for Australia anyway. My personal opinion is that  
highway=residential as a tag was a mistake, but I believe there is (or has  
been) considerable controversy about it anyway. Of all the highway  
classifications, it is the only one that appears to be related to a  
quality of the adjacent landuse, rather than a quality of the road itself.  
highway=local (as in, for local traffic only) sounds a whole lot better to  
me. I'm quite certain I don't want to know how hard it would be to make  
that sort of change.

2. I would just examine how someone has done that sort of thing before. I  
would also think about it from a topological point of view, rather than a  
strictly physical point of view. For example, joining roads need to cross  
and join both paths of the dual carriageway. Unless they don't, of course!

3. I would name the turning lanes. There's a phrase for this that you'll  
hear frequently in OSM. "Don't tag for the renderer." IMO, turning lanes  
are part of the road, and share the name. If they look ugly, that's a  
rendering problem that should be fixed by the renderer.

4. Yes, there is conflicting advice here. My view is to name the  
roundabout. Consider a residence with driveway access from the roundabout.  
They won't be on an un-named road! I use my best judgement to use the name  
of the most important road. Watch the path direction as roundabouts  
default to oneway.

5. I don't know how postcodes work. I'm more than happy to leave that sort  
of thing to people who do know. There's plenty of other things to keep me  
busy mapping...

What you've done (assuming that's you at the very east end of Ocean Reef  
Road) looks fine to me.

I do have some comments in relation to mapping that was done before I  
started:

* There are a lot of mini_roundabouts that should be full-blown  
junction=roundabout. In fact, I don't think I've seen anything that would  
qualify as an actual mini_roundabout. I fix those as I come to them.
* When it comes to drawing roundabouts, I draw a diamond/square shape.  
JOSM is easier than Potlatch due to zooming. Afterwards, I use Potlatch to  
tidy that diamond/square into a nice circle.
* There are quite a few highway=living_street tags. I'm not so sure that  
they really do qualify as living streets. Fancy, narrow, brick-paved  
surfaces as found in new stylish subdivisions, are still just  
highway=residential to me.

--
Andrew

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[John Smith-131]

2009/11/6 Andrew Gregory <andrew@...>:
> * There are a lot of mini_roundabouts that should be full-blown
> junction=roundabout. In fact, I don't think I've seen anything that would
> qualify as an actual mini_roundabout. I fix those as I come to them.

There is 2 I know of off the top of my head, one in Maroochydore, Qld

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=maroochydore,+qld&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=57.2581,114.169922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Maroochydore+QLD&ll=-26.652363,153.090427&spn=0.003577,0.006968&z=18&layer=c&cbll=-26.65241,153.09034&panoid=akIJdCP03pRoauoJvWyHBg&cbp=12,96.48,,0,13.29

And possibly this one in Inverell, NSW

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=inverell,+nsw&sll=-26.65241,153.09034&sspn=0.003476,0.006968&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Inverell+NSW&ll=-29.772387,151.111874&spn=0.003474,0.006968&z=18&layer=c&cbll=-29.772203,151.111719&panoid=zOMqanROpdvY5__-ImYI_g&cbp=12,169.12,,0,-0.06

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[James Andrewartha-4]

On Sat, 7 Nov 2009, John Smith wrote:

> 2009/11/6 Andrew Gregory <andrew@...>:
> > * There are a lot of mini_roundabouts that should be full-blown
> > junction=roundabout. In fact, I don't think I've seen anything that would
> > qualify as an actual mini_roundabout. I fix those as I come to them.
>
> There is 2 I know of off the top of my head, one in Maroochydore, Qld
>
> http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=maroochydore,+qld&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=57.2581,114.169922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Maroochydore+QLD&ll=-26.652363,153.090427&spn=0.003577,0.006968&z=18&layer=c&cbll=-26.65241,153.09034&panoid=akIJdCP03pRoauoJvWyHBg&cbp=12,96.48,,0,13.29
>
> And possibly this one in Inverell, NSW
>
> http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=inverell,+nsw&sll=-26.65241,153.09034&sspn=0.003476,0.006968&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Inverell+NSW&ll=-29.772387,151.111874&spn=0.003474,0.006968&z=18&layer=c&cbll=-29.772203,151.111719&panoid=zOMqanROpdvY5__-ImYI_g&cbp=12,169.12,,0,-0.06

In Fremantle, WA there's this one
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-32.053667,115.749245&z=21&t=k

James Andrewartha


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[Liz-25]

I deliberately replied separately to Arie, to assure him that asking here
would result in at least 2 different answers to every question.

>
> That does help, I've had a look at some of the suburbs where you've been
> editing and I like the result. I'm mostly collecting data / info while
> driving though so footpaths and bus stops etc can be a bit tricky. Some
> things that I haven't settled on which I'd appreciate comments on (from
> anyone who cares to respond!) are:
>
> 1) Tagging roads residential in commercial areas - there doesn't seem to
> be a better option and this is how roads have been tagged in Osbourne Park
> (as an example).

I do residential. The suggestion below for "local" makes more sense, but won't
render without major changes to the system.
>
> 2) Lots of roads that are dual carriage way (like Ocean Reef Road) aren't
> at the moment, but making them dual carriageway is tricky with junctions.
Tricky at first, but needs doing
>
> 3) Flares at intersection - in particular tagging with name= on all the
> different ways that make up the road looks really messy. Can someone point
> to a good example of this?
Don't tag flares - they don't clearly belong to either road

>
> 4) Tagging roundabouts with name= . I've seen this in quite a few places
> on the map but I'm sure I read advice to not do so somewhere - can't
> remember where. Map Features and the Aus tagging guidelines are
> non-committal on this.
Some roundabouts have a name. I tag those. I don't carry a street name over
because it belongs to 2 streets, and roundabouts are not used where one street
has a far greater flow of traffic than another - so no one street is ever
going to be "more important"

>
> 5) Postcodes - I understand this is an ongoing project. As an example, see
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.9192&lon=116.1059&zoom=14
> Darlington's postcode shows up, but Mahogony Creek's doesn't even though
> the Administrative boundaries for both suburbs are part of relations
> specifying the postcode.
John will explain


>
> 4. Yes, there is conflicting advice here. My view is to name the
> roundabout. Consider a residence with driveway access from the roundabout.
> They won't be on an un-named road! I use my best judgement to use the name
> of the most important road. Watch the path direction as roundabouts
> default to oneway.
Driveways shouldn't access a roundabout (I've read big quantities of the
Ausroads guides)


>
> * There are a lot of mini_roundabouts that should be full-blown
> junction=roundabout. In fact, I don't think I've seen anything that would
> qualify as an actual mini_roundabout. I fix those as I come to them.
> * When it comes to drawing roundabouts, I draw a diamond/square shape.
> JOSM is easier than Potlatch due to zooming. Afterwards, I use Potlatch to
> tidy that diamond/square into a nice circle.
I draw a nice circle in JOSM and then copy and paste that circle for the rest
of my editing session.
Legally, there are NO mini-roundabouts in Australia. A mini roundabout has a
blue sign, not a yellow one.


> * There are quite a few highway=living_street tags. I'm not so sure that
> they really do qualify as living streets. Fancy, narrow, brick-paved
> surfaces as found in new stylish subdivisions, are still just
> highway=residential to me.
I've found one in Orange with a very low speed limit and a sign indicating
children and cars sharing the street.


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[Andrew Gregory]

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 04:06:47 +0800, Liz <edodd@...> wrote:

> Driveways shouldn't access a roundabout (I've read big quantities of the
> Ausroads guides)

It does happen, though:

http://maps.google.com.au/?ie=UTF8&ll=-31.790792,115.745162&spn=0.000911,0.001852&t=k&z=20

I'm fairly sure the driveway came before the roundabout, which is how it  
can happen.

BTW, are the Ausroads guides you mention the ones found at:

http://www.austroads.com.au/

?

> Legally, there are NO mini-roundabouts in Australia. A mini roundabout  
> has a blue sign, not a yellow one.

Signage can't be the defining characteristic of a roundabout, mini- or  
otherwise. Most roundabouts I've seen aren't signed apart from give way  
signs, but not actual roundabout signs. I remember seeing a Google Maps  
aerial photo of someplace in Australia that had what appeared to be a  
mini-roundabout, i.e. a small painted circle on the road, and the road not  
specially widened for it.

>> * There are quite a few highway=living_street tags. I'm not so sure that
>> they really do qualify as living streets. Fancy, narrow, brick-paved
>> surfaces as found in new stylish subdivisions, are still just
>> highway=residential to me.
> I've found one in Orange with a very low speed limit and a sign  
> indicating
> children and cars sharing the street.

So they do exist! :-)

--
Andrew

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[Liz-25]

>
> BTW, are the Ausroads guides you mention the ones found at:
>
> http://www.austroads.com.au/
>
There are no guides there. They ask for money. In the interests of Free
Information I used the Uni library.


>
>> Legally, there are NO mini-roundabouts in Australia. A mini roundabout
>> has a blue sign, not a yellow one.
>
> Signage can't be the defining characteristic of a roundabout, mini- or
> otherwise.

In the Australian Road Rules there are only roundabouts.
The mini roundabout of Europe and UK does have variation on the standard
roundabout rules (remember these people also invented the multiple
roundabout, aka Magic roundabout).
So here, in the road rules = legally, there are only roundabouts.
They do have yellow signs. Sometimes vandals remove signs. Sometimes
council workers remove signs, so they aren't always there.

Liz


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[John Smith-131]

2009/11/7  <edodd@...>:
> In the Australian Road Rules there are only roundabouts.
> The mini roundabout of Europe and UK does have variation on the standard
> roundabout rules (remember these people also invented the multiple
> roundabout, aka Magic roundabout).
> So here, in the road rules = legally, there are only roundabouts.

Legally yes, but drawing a mini roundabout as a proper roundabout is
pointless, especially if they only have a diameter of 1-2m, it will
never look like a roundabout when rendered.

> They do have yellow signs. Sometimes vandals remove signs. Sometimes
> council workers remove signs, so they aren't always there.

I mostly see giveway type signs, most councils seem to be too cheap to
buy proper roundabout signs.

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[John Smith-131]

2009/11/7 Liz <edodd@...>:
>> 5) Postcodes - I understand this is an ongoing project. As an example, see
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.9192&lon=116.1059&zoom=14
>> Darlington's postcode shows up, but Mahogony Creek's doesn't even though
>> the Administrative boundaries for both suburbs are part of relations
>> specifying the postcode.

Hmm must have missed this...

I coded up a page showing which postcodes are in the system, and which
have been verified:

http://map-data.bigtincan.com/postcodes.php

I also made a custom rendering style sheet to show this graphically:

http://maps.bigtincan.com/?z=4&ll=-28.228,134.963&layer=00B000000TT

Franc has turned ABS boundaries of postcode guesstimations into OSM
files which can be loaded in JOSM, they can be found here:

http://map-data.bigtincan.com/data/postcodes/

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[Arie Paap]

Thank you everyone for your comments and advice.

I'll carry on for a while, I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go along.

Arie.

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