Next Generation Database Schema

[Steve Wyles]

Another example of releases with identical content (titles / times) but
released under different names on the front cover is:

http://musicbrainz.org/album/406674d7-9a53-4c2b-866a-533801a8a00e.html

and

http://musicbrainz.org/album/945cf9b2-0168-400f-95ca-69f9e4476886.html

Steve (inhouseuk)
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[Beth-2]

Another duel album, though slightly different,
Different title, different artist. (literally same TRM lookup/pressing)

http://musicbrainz.org/album/7fd95c15-e8c4-4239-9cbc-a2fdb468b966.html

http://musicbrainz.org/showalbum.html?albumid=87412





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[Jan van Thiel-2]

Something else I'd like to see:
for a person using more than 1 performance name, on one performance
name links to the other performance names would be helpful.

Example:
Mario Piperno ( http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=279166
) performs as
DJ Arabesque ( http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=151871 )
and
Mario Più ( http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=41473 )

Jan

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[Steve Wyles]

It would be nice to be able to store more than one date for group
formation and dissolving.

This group
http://musicbrainz.org/artist/24d2505b-388c-46cc-8a64-48223ea6d78d.html
has just reformed.

Steve (inhouseuk)
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[Schika]

It would be nice:
* to see the track relationships (was Remixed by ArtistX) in the album
overview. I mean when you look at the album itself and not the album
overview of an artist.
* to simply switch artists in already existing AR's instead of deleting
the existing one and adding to the ather artist
* to enter tracks / artist independend of the ID points, which is very
usefull for mix-cds where one or more songs appears in a track (I wrote
a possible solution for this same days ago, could be attached on request)
* to list the ARs of an artist the same way as for the albums (the
simular ways as on discogs.com)
* to enter and edit artist comments, not only when we have duplicate entries

Schika
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[William Noble]

Something else that I think would be very useful (although this could possibly
be solved by AR) would be special handling for groups that are practically
synonyms for the group leader.  I'm sure most people would rather see albums
by the Jimi Hendrix Experience and Prince & The Revolution listed under Jimi
Hendrix and Prince, respectively.  Currently, some albums, such as the three
by the Jimi Hendrix Experience, have the leader as the artist, even though
officially credited to the group, while others have the group as the artist.

This would make MB much more useful to jazz listeners, as perhaps 60% of
jazz recordings are released under such ostensible group names (e.g. the
Miles Davis Quartet, Quintet, Sextet, and Nonet, which are separate artists
on MB).
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[William Noble]

Something else that I think would be very useful (although this could possibly
be solved by AR) would be special handling for groups that are practically
synonyms for the group leader.  I'm sure most people would rather see albums
by the Jimi Hendrix Experience and Prince & The Revolution listed under Jimi
Hendrix and Prince, respectively.  Currently, some albums, such as the three
by the Jimi Hendrix Experience, have the leader as the artist, even though
officially credited to the group, while others have the group as the artist.

This would make MB much more useful to jazz listeners, as perhaps 60% of
jazz recordings are released under such ostensible group names (e.g. the
Miles Davis Quartet, Quintet, Sextet, and Nonet, which are separate artists
on MB).
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[William Noble]

Oops. Sorry for the double post.
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[Beth-2]

I would like AR type:   Artist A formed Group B
                AR type Artist A programmed Song, Album
whatnot
                AR type Artist A performed all
instrumentation on Song, Album whatnot. (useful in NIN and other one person
group instances where they used a featuring lyricist)

I would like the AR type Artist has official website at... to be forced to
the top of the AR list.
(good for both artists recognition and to keep them from being added later
by people that don't check all ARs)

I would like, to see a particular artists AR information for multiple names
with one click to a master page of "This is the works this artist" has been
involved with, the various bands etc, spanned from the various pseudonyms
and legal name changes.

Example (and I've tried to flesh out the AR's so you get a good picture,
it's only half done if that.)

Scott Albert - Legal name change Klayton Scott (often times referred simply
as Klay or Klayton in liner notes.)

pseudonyms: Dethwish, Celldweller, Dred, Cell Dweller, Tox.... (there are
easily three more at least, which attributes him on album works seems insane
to build an artist for each pseudonym)
 
Formed:
Immortal (with his brother Level)

Brainchild (worked with one other person)

Argyle Park (his instrumentation with Buka, Level, and many featuring
artists like foetus and others)

Circle of Dust (his "brainchild", though there was two others involved.
Klank, and another. Re-released Brainchild's Mindwarp, which was more or
less a solo work.)

Celldweller began as a solo project though took on band members to travel
live and utilized many talented artists.)

Worked extensively on Angeldust Criss Angel's project that became Criss
Angel (credited with 4 discs of Klayton's work)

Most of this was done under Scott Albert, which the artist has downplayed
and yet shows on his current website for Celldweller and listed as Klayton
has done (therefore it gets confusing as to which name to attribute it to. I
attempt to go with liner notes, though there is bound to be more duplicated
entries as more people utilize Musicbrainz and grow fond of Celldweller
(already in the upper 40,000 in Amazon sells, even though he's working
independent of a label.)

Scott Albert:
http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=276657
Klayton Scott:  http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=276655
Immortal:
http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=293014
Brainchild:     http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=1454
Circle of Dust: http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=2349
Argyle Park:
http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=32576
Celldweller:
http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=94575

AP2:
http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=162349
Angeldust:
http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=159365
Criss Angel:
http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=37765
Level:
http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=52570


Celldweller.com Projects http://celldweller.com/2005/related+projects.html



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[DonRedman]

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 03:39:11 +0100, Schika wrote:

> * to enter tracks / artist independend of the ID points, which is very
> usefull for mix-cds where one or more songs appears in a track (I wrote
> a possible solution for this same days ago, could be attached on request)

Yes, please!

We do not have a proper solution to this problem yet.

And regarding this, a question to everybody: How frequent do you think are  
multiple songs in one track? I would assume that this is far less than 10%  
of all tracks, but then I listen to some musical genres only.

   DonRedman



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[Schika]

Don Redman wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 03:39:11 +0100, Schika wrote:
>
>> * to enter tracks / artist independend of the ID points, which is very
>> usefull for mix-cds where one or more songs appears in a track (I wrote
>> a possible solution for this same days ago, could be attached on
>> request)
>
>
> Yes, please!
>
> We do not have a proper solution to this problem yet.
>
>
>   DonRedman
>
>
>

Here the mail - as requested:

"Jan van Thiel wrote:


>>On 11/22/05, Schika <schika@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>
>>>> We need the possibility to enter artist / tracks independent to the ID
>>>>points of a CD / MP3 file.  I think of Mix CDs where more than 2
artists /
>>>>tracks are part of an ID point.
>>>> I was on a start to correct Richie Hawtin's Mix-CD series (Decks, EFX &
>>>>909) and had to start more than 5 times cause of loosing the
overview and

>>>>finally stopped my edit. You may take a look here ->
>>>>http://www.discogs.com/release/34921 (DE9: Closer to the
>>>>Edit) and here -> http://www.discogs.com/release/554040
>>>>(DE9: Transitions) to see what I mean.
>>>>  
>>>>
>
>>
>>(This was not really related to the discussion on mb-style, so I moved
>>this to mb-users.)
>>
>>It is a known problem, BTW. See
>>http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/TracksWithMultipleArtists for releases
>>with the same problem and how they are entered.
>>
>>Jan
>>
>>
>>
>>

Yeah, I've read that.
The "Tracks by Various Artists" guideline is OK when there's no playlist
known.
But the "Tracks by '/' separated artists" guideline is completely a mess.

* The first artists appears correctly in the artist filed, all other
following artists are now mixed up with the tracks and appear as track
by the first artist of that ID point.

* According to ID3.org -> Title/songname information belongs into the
TIT2 frame and artist/performer information belongs into the TPE1 frame.
The "/" character is used for seperation within the frames.


My solution/suggestion would be: sub entries between ID points

When you add a new album to the database you will be asked: "how many
tracks?" (These are the ID points of the CD and what we already have.)
* Answer: "X"
Next question could be: "Is this is a Mix-CD with multiple entries per
ID point?"
* Answer: No -> nothing new, the same way we already have. The entry
mask with our X track /artist fields appears. And everything goes as
already known.
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 1 ID-Point  |  1 track title                  | 1 artist            
| 1 ID-Point duration |
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 2 ID-Point  |  2 track title                  | 2 artist            
| 2 ID-Point duration |
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 3 ID-Point  |  3 track title                  | 3 artist            
| 3 ID-Point duration |
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
...
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| X ID-Point  |  X track title                  | X artist            
| X ID-Point duration |
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+


* Answer: Yes -> The entry mask with our X track/artist fields appears,
but with an additional table per track and artist field, with
possibility to split & merge / enter & delete sub-fields .

+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 1 ID-Point  |  1 track title                  | 1 artist            
| 1 ID-Point duration |
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 2 ID-Point  |  2 track title                  | 2 artist            
| 2 ID-Point duration |
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 3 ID-Point  | 3.1 track title                 | 3.1 artist          
| 3 ID-Point duration |
|            
|---------------------------------+-----------------------|                    
|
|             | 3.2 track title                 | 3.2 artist          
|                     |
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 4 ID-Point  |  4 track title                  | 4 artist            
| 4 ID-Point duration |
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 5 ID-Point  | 5.1 track title                 | 5.1 artist          
| 5 ID-Point duration |
|            
|---------------------------------+-----------------------|                    
|
|             | 5.2 track title                 | 5.2 artist          
|                     |
|            
|---------------------------------+-----------------------|                    
|
|             | 5.3 track title                 | 5.3 artist          
|                     |
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| 6 ID-Point  |  6 track title                  | 6 artist            
| 6 ID-Point duration |
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
...
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+
| X ID-Point  |  X track title                  | X artist            
| X ID-Point duration |
+-------------+---------------------------------+-----------------------+---------------------+

For my above example on ID-Point 5: TPE1 frame has then "5.1 artist/5.2
artist/5.3 artist" and TIT2 frame has then "5.1 track title/5.2 track
title/5.3 track title".

however, ... just an idea. o_O

Schika"

> And regarding this, a question to everybody: How frequent do you think
> are  multiple songs in one track? I would assume that this is far less
> than 10%  of all tracks, but then I listen to some musical genres only.

This problem is only (mostly) with mix CD/MP3's or when you have a CD
with only one ID-Point - like the album "Vapourspace - Themes from
Vapourspace" ->
http://musicbrainz.org/album/34c3522a-dbf7-4854-b49b-5e698c82847d.html <-
I agree that this could be less than 10% of all tracks, but I have a lot
of such examples.
Another very common example is a hidden track sharing the same ID Point
of another track (mostly the last one of a CD), which plays after some
time of silence.

Schika
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[DonRedman]

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 22:38:01 +0100, Schika wrote:

> The "Tracks by Various Artists" guideline is OK when there's no playlist
> known.
> But the "Tracks by '/' separated artists" guideline is completely a mess.
>
> * The first artists appears correctly in the artist filed, all other
> following artists are now mixed up with the tracks and appear as track
> by the first artist of that ID point.
>
> * According to ID3.org -> Title/songname information belongs into the
> TIT2 frame and artist/performer information belongs into the TPE1 frame.
> The "/" character is used for seperation within the frames.
>
>
> My solution/suggestion would be: sub entries between ID points

(...)

>> And regarding this, a question to everybody: How frequent do you think
>> are  multiple songs in one track? I would assume that this is far less
>> than 10%  of all tracks, but then I listen to some musical genres only.
>
> This problem is only (mostly) with mix CD/MP3's or when you have a CD
> with only one ID-Point - like the album "Vapourspace - Themes from
> Vapourspace" ->
> http://musicbrainz.org/album/34c3522a-dbf7-4854-b49b-5e698c82847d.html <-
> I agree that this could be less than 10% of all tracks, but I have a lot
> of such examples.
> Another very common example is a hidden track sharing the same ID Point
> of another track (mostly the last one of a CD), which plays after some
> time of silence.

Hmm, your proposal adds a lot of complexity to the datastructure in the  
background. The question is, whether it is woth implementing such a  
complexity for only very few cases.

The current Idea[TM] in Robert and my head would allow the following  
_without_ breaking proper linking to the real single artist:

AlbumTitle: "DE9: Closer To The Edit"
Track1Title: "Range / Smart Card? / 10 Strikes To 2001"
Track1Artist: "Rhythm & Sound / Bluetrain / Lowtec"

In this example, is this a DJ-mix, i.e. are the tracks blended together?

Actually: do you have two examples of multiple songs per ID-Point whith  
one DJ-mixed and the other one not with real silence between the songs)?  
Or did you already point at some and I just missed them?

   DonRedman


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[Beth-2]

Is there a way at MB level to bring something that should be edited to other
moderators attention? For instance.. I don't know anything about the
album/artist, but, to me by track times it appears as if this should be
merged to whichever is correct?

http://musicbrainz.org/album/9805fd6a-0002-47e4-8bbb-0189eb735d9f.html

http://musicbrainz.org/album/8a6e3cdf-b9e7-4da5-9c5f-1a476589852b.html

Perhaps this is the way to bring it to someone's attention, though it seems
like it would be easier to be able to flag them and have it at the open
moderations level? I don't know, perhaps this is a silly suggestion.

At any rate, if there is someone who knows enough about the artist/album to
make a mod on it...


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[Beth-2]

          >Is there a way at MB level to bring something that should be
          >edited to other
          >moderators attention? For instance.. I don't know anything
          >about the
          >album/artist, but, to me by track times it appears as if this
should
          >be
          >merged to whichever is correct?
          >
          >http://musicbrainz.org/album/9805fd6a-0002-47e4-8bbb-
          >0189eb735d9f.html
          >
          >http://musicbrainz.org/album/8a6e3cdf-b9e7-4da5-9c5f-
          >1a476589852b.html
          >
          >Perhaps this is the way to bring it to someone's attention,
though
          >it seems
          >like it would be easier to be able to flag them and have it at
the
          >open
          >moderations level? I don't know, perhaps this is a silly
suggestion.
          >
          >At any rate, if there is someone who knows enough about the
          >artist/album to
          >make a mod on it...
          >
          >
          >_______________________________________________
          >MusicBrainz-users mailing list
          >MusicBrainz-users@...
          >http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users


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[Jan van Thiel-2]

On 11/29/05, Beth <IMBethers@...> wrote:
> Is there a way at MB level to bring something that should be edited to other
> moderators attention? For instance.. I don't know anything about the
> album/artist, but, to me by track times it appears as if this should be
> merged to whichever is correct?
>
> http://musicbrainz.org/album/9805fd6a-0002-47e4-8bbb-0189eb735d9f.html
>
> http://musicbrainz.org/album/8a6e3cdf-b9e7-4da5-9c5f-1a476589852b.html

http://musicbrainz.org/showmod.html?modid=3801615

> Perhaps this is the way to bring it to someone's attention, though it seems
> like it would be easier to be able to flag them and have it at the open
> moderations level? I don't know, perhaps this is a silly suggestion.

Normally, you can mail the editors that are subscribed to that artist.
But no-one is subscribed to that artist.

Jan

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[Beth-2]

          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: musicbrainz-users-bounces@...
          >[mailto:musicbrainz-users-bounces@...] On Behalf
          >Of Jan van Thiel
          >Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 10:19 AM
          >To: General discussions about MusicBrainz
          >Subject: Re: [mb-users] Next Generation Database Schema
          >
          >On 11/29/05, Beth <IMBethers@...> wrote:
          >> Is there a way at MB level to bring something that should be
          >edited to other
          >> moderators attention? For instance.. I don't know anything
          >about the
          >> album/artist, but, to me by track times it appears as if this
          >should be
          >> merged to whichever is correct?
          >>
          >> http://musicbrainz.org/album/9805fd6a-0002-47e4-8bbb-
          >0189eb735d9f.html
          >>
          >> http://musicbrainz.org/album/8a6e3cdf-b9e7-4da5-9c5f-
          >1a476589852b.html
          >
          >http://musicbrainz.org/showmod.html?modid=3801615
          >
          >> Perhaps this is the way to bring it to someone's attention,
          >though it seems
          >> like it would be easier to be able to flag them and have it at
          >the open
          >> moderations level? I don't know, perhaps this is a silly
          >suggestion.
          >
          >Normally, you can mail the editors that are subscribed to that
          >artist.
          >But no-one is subscribed to that artist.
          >

That was the first thing I checked.. which was why I was at a loss. ;)
Thanks, both Jan and Zout!

Beth



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[Schika]

Don Redman wrote:

> The current Idea[TM] in Robert and my head would allow the following
> _without_ breaking proper linking to the real single artist:
>
> AlbumTitle: "DE9: Closer To The Edit"
> Track1Title: "Range / Smart Card? / 10 Strikes To 2001"
> Track1Artist: "Rhythm & Sound / Bluetrain / Lowtec"
>
LOL - that's exactly what I meant and how the frames in the audio files
will look like. But I had also in mind an user friendly readable and
editing way. That's why I brought it up with my called "sub table entries".

> In this example, is this a DJ-mix, i.e. are the tracks blended together?
>
> Actually: do you have two examples of multiple songs per ID-Point
> whith  one DJ-mixed and the other one not with real silence between
> the songs)?  Or did you already point at some and I just missed them?

Yep, I was talking about that all the time. I guess the few conventional
examples (with hidden tracks) I added, brought up the confusion. o_O

Check the "To Do List" at my wiki-user-page, I have there some Mix-CD
examples listed.

Schika

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[Gecks]

general wantlist. half of these probably aren't anything to do with the DB:

i want ARs to be organised on the page like discogs does. ie:

Artist A

Mixed:
    ArtistB - Album1

Performed:
    Guitar:
       ArtistB - Album1
        ArtistC - Album2


i want all track ARs to appear on the album view, not track view. again,
like discogs. example: http://www.discogs.com/release/529464

i want to be able to add a relationship to multiple tracks at once. i want
to be able to say that ArtistA performed Guitar on tracks 1 to 7, 9 and 13
without having to go into each of those tracks. checkboxes, maybe?

i want to be able to add bespoke ARs. it's crazy that EVERY instrument has
to have it's own AR. discogs does it like so:
http://help.discogs.com/wiki/SubmissionGuidelinesCredits - basically common
roles/instrument are indexed (understood by the DB), but you can also add
qualifiers in squared brackets - eg 'Guitar [12 String]' so it would appear
under the Guitar category on the artist page, but is understood to be a
'special case'. You can also add unique instruments manually. AR should be
be a free entry text box, but with a drop down for common & understood
roles.

i want discogs to undestand media types. i want to be able to show that a
release came out on vinyl, and the track layout for it (ie track 1 is A1, 2
is A2, 3 is B1, etc). when i click on a release, it should show all the
format variations, including those that have a different selection of
tracks.

i want to be able to have proper collabs (
http://www.discogs.com/release/571302 ) and splits (
http://www.discogs.com/release/529682 ) - see how those artists are the
actual ARTISTS rather than a makeshift 'fake' artist like 'Mono & World's
End Girlfriend' and then relationships to marry it up to the seperate
artists.

aliases. they shouldn't automatically route things to a all encompassing
artist name. i want to show that 'A Silver Mt. Zion' (
http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=39340 ) released all their
albums under different aliases, but i also want them to have a single page
discography for the lot.

oh, and the moon on a stick :)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Redman" <donredman@...>
To: "MusicBrainz Users" <musicbrainz-users@...>; "MusicBrainz
Style" <musicbrainz-style@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 11:09 PM
Subject: [mb-users] Next Generation Database Schema

> Hi everybody,
>
> Robert and me have met in Hamburg and are trying to do as much preparing
> work for the summit as possible. We have gathered all the excelent ideas
> for database changes that are flying around on the wiki, and it looks like
> we will come up with a pretty cool proposal for the next generation
> schema. This should solve the major PsITA like SG5 (the dreaded
> FeatruingArtistStyle), the mess around DontCreateRelationshipClusters, the
> cludgy special VariousArtistsAlbums, and even a lot of
> InterNationalization issues.
>
> The full proposal is still in our brains, but we will write it up soon. In
> order to do that, however,
>
>   WE NEED YOUR HELP !
>
> We need two kinds of things to strain-test the schema:
>
>  * Examples of Albums, Artists and Tracks with all their weird facts and
> connections that the current database schema cannot represent, but the new
> one should.
>  * Usage cases: What do you want MusicBrainz to be able to do?
>
> Please give us your examples and usage cases. Reply to this post on
> mb-users with one example/usage case per mail. If you have described such
> an example in the past discussions, please dig that mail out and forward
> it here (e.g Orion had some pretty detailed examples, and the current
> thread on  MakingMusicBrainzUsefulForCollectors contains some important
> usage cases).
>
> I will reply to this mail and add an example and a usage case myself so
> that you get an idea of what we need.
>
> Rob and me will meet again on tuesday, it would be great if we had a set
> of at least a dozen of Artists/Albums/Tracks that we could try to apply to
> the new schema.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>   DonRedman
>
> --
> Words that are written in CamelCase refer to WikiPages:
> Visit http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ the best MusicBrainz documentation
> around! :-)
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>

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