No EOL control in NB 6.1?

[Eric Armstrong-2]

This is a tiny thing, but it's a killer.

I use a windows box to run NetBeans, with the intention
of editing scripts that are on a Solaris/Unix server,
using the miracle of cross-platform file systems.

Since NB is running on Windows, it adds a CR to the
end of every line I create.

That tends not to work so well for files that I anticipate
running from Solaris. I wind up having to run dos2unix
a lot.

--

Eric Armstrong, Document Systems Architect, Sun Microsystems
http://blogs.sun.com/coolstuff
http://www.artima.com/weblogs/index.jsp?blogger=cooltools

[Kurt Olsen-3]

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Thanks for listening,
Kurt

[Will Hartung-3]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:12 PM, Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...> wrote:

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Funny, all of the IDEs I know require you to install an Operating System and Java before they'll run.

All of the IDEs I know of need you to install the appropriate DB drivers if you want to use any of the database functionality.

My IDE didn't come with a keyboard or mouse either, yet it seems to require those in order for me to interact with it. Pretty arrogant of it I think.

[Bayless Kirtley]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

And from the stories we here, apparently you have to also download and install a whole load of plugins in order to get Eclipse to do anything useful.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: willh@...

To: nbusers@...

Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 8:22 PM

Subject: Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:12 PM, Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...> wrote:

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Funny, all of the IDEs I know require you to install an Operating System and Java before they'll run.

All of the IDEs I know of need you to install the appropriate DB drivers if you want to use any of the database functionality.

My IDE didn't come with a keyboard or mouse either, yet it seems to require those in order for me to interact with it. Pretty arrogant of it I think.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1551 - Release Date: 7/14/2008 6:49 AM

[Kurt Olsen-3]

Regarding Eclipse, no actually, I download the standard version then add
the subversion plugin. That's all.
And I can download versions of Netbeans and Eclipse that include Java if
I'm not mistaken.

The point folks, is that integrated is, or isn't, and we're getting away
from an 'integration level' that is useful.
I'm trying to point out that there was a reason IDE's were create.
And when you require a lot of customization, or additional software,
then you are NOT integrated.
It's about that simple. If you integrate, then do all of it, or at least
provide wizards to help with the 'extra installs'.
If you don't do either of those, then you aren't integrated.
As usual, thanks for listening, and the feedback.

Take care,
Kurt

> And from the stories we here, apparently you have to also download and
> install a whole load of plugins in order to get Eclipse to do anything
> useful.
>  
>  
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Will Hartung <mailto:willh@...>
>     *To:* nbusers@... <mailto:nbusers@...>
>     *Sent:* Monday, July 14, 2008 8:22 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>
>
>     On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:12 PM, Kurt Olsen
>     <kolsen@...
>     <mailto:kolsen@...>> wrote:
>
>         If you can't install the
>         whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT INTEGRATED!
>
>
>     Funny, all of the IDEs I know require you to install an Operating
>     System and Java before they'll run.
>
>     All of the IDEs I know of need you to install the appropriate DB
>     drivers if you want to use any of the database functionality.
>
>     My IDE didn't come with a keyboard or mouse either, yet it seems
>     to require those in order for me to interact with it. Pretty
>     arrogant of it I think.
>
>
>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>     Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
>     Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1551 - Release Date: 7/14/2008 6:49 AM
>        
>

[Gary Greenberg-4]

Let's just call it DDE (disintegrated development environment) :-))

I worked with both Netbeans and Eclipse (and IntelliJ Idea too).
IMHO, Netbeans is much more integrated then Eclipse (by the order of
magnitude).
I did not use Eclipse for over 2 years but I remember well all the
plugin hell I had to wade through to make it work.
Netbeans installation in comparison was a breeze.

Cheers,
        Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Olsen [mailto:kolsen@...]
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:32 PM
To: nbusers@...
Subject: Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

Regarding Eclipse, no actually, I download the standard version then add

the subversion plugin. That's all.
And I can download versions of Netbeans and Eclipse that include Java if

I'm not mistaken.

The point folks, is that integrated is, or isn't, and we're getting away

from an 'integration level' that is useful.
I'm trying to point out that there was a reason IDE's were create.
And when you require a lot of customization, or additional software,
then you are NOT integrated.
It's about that simple. If you integrate, then do all of it, or at least

provide wizards to help with the 'extra installs'.
If you don't do either of those, then you aren't integrated.
As usual, thanks for listening, and the feedback.

Take care,
Kurt


> And from the stories we here, apparently you have to also download and

> install a whole load of plugins in order to get Eclipse to do anything

> useful.
>  
>  
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Will Hartung <mailto:willh@...>
>     *To:* nbusers@... <mailto:nbusers@...>
>     *Sent:* Monday, July 14, 2008 8:22 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>
>
>     On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:12 PM, Kurt Olsen
>     <kolsen@...
>     <mailto:kolsen@...>> wrote:
>
>         If you can't install the
>         whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT

INTEGRATED!

>
>
>     Funny, all of the IDEs I know require you to install an Operating
>     System and Java before they'll run.
>
>     All of the IDEs I know of need you to install the appropriate DB
>     drivers if you want to use any of the database functionality.
>
>     My IDE didn't come with a keyboard or mouse either, yet it seems
>     to require those in order for me to interact with it. Pretty
>     arrogant of it I think.
>
>
>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>     Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
>     Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1551 - Release Date:

7/14/2008 6:49 AM
>        
>

[Alex Sherwin]

In defense of Eclipse (yes, I like Eclipse better),

What exactly do people consider "usable"? A bunch of people have said they
had to wade through tons of plugins and extra installs to make it work.

Eclipse has a few distros, including an EE distro that has built in support
for EAR, WAR and EJB creation for editing the descriptors etc, a Java
edition with some extra java stuff and CV, C/C++ (which I have not tried)
and Classic (which I use).

The only plugin I install is Checkstyles (which is in no way required to
make anything work, obviously).  The complete bare minimum installation of
Eclipse is a much more stable, faster, less memory hungry IDE that is
undoubtedly faster and more feature rich in terms of sitting down and
writing code.

So, again, in defense of Eclipse, what do you mean when you say its
unusable?  In my experience, out of the box it's one of the best free tools
I've ever used (possibly the best).

I like NetBeans for some things, but I feel like it tries to do too much
parenting of its private user data cache and project setup files.  It's too
overbearing of the projects, very inflexible in terms of how you
configure/customize the setup and layout of your project.  The recent
releases are getting better (allowing you to define relative paths to
external jars, for example) but it's still got a long way to go to be a
really powerful IDE in my opinion.

P.S.  

I've never had Eclipse crash on me, in years... NetBeans has crashed on me
atleast 5 times this week (yes, there has only been one work day thus far
this week).  I will defend NetBeans a bit and admit that this is probably
from the Visual Web pack plugin and some other the other more fancy/advanced
things that it tries to do that Eclipse doesn't, but nevertheless, it still
crashes and Eclipse doesn't.

I have no choice but to use NetBeans on a daily basis side-by-side with
Eclipse, so I make due the best I can.  I spend the time to learn the
shortcuts, the equivalent useful things; such as Open type (Ctrl+O in NB,
Shift+Ctrl+T in Eclipse), Fix imports etc.  It appears to me these are
obvious and necessary features to make life better for a developer, but it's
funny how similarly they function to the way Eclipse implemented them.  In
general, they are also much slower then the Eclipse equivalent.

I hate to bash NetBeans so much, because it is a good IDE.  But being a Java
IDE, it shares a lot of features in common with Eclipse, and I happen to
think that Eclipse does just about all of those shared features better,
faster, more efficiently and without any bugs.


Alex Sherwin
alex.sherwin@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Greenberg [mailto:gary.greenberg@...]
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 11:02 PM
To: nbusers@...
Subject: RE: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

Let's just call it DDE (disintegrated development environment) :-))

I worked with both Netbeans and Eclipse (and IntelliJ Idea too).
IMHO, Netbeans is much more integrated then Eclipse (by the order of
magnitude).
I did not use Eclipse for over 2 years but I remember well all the
plugin hell I had to wade through to make it work.
Netbeans installation in comparison was a breeze.

Cheers,
        Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Olsen [mailto:kolsen@...]
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:32 PM
To: nbusers@...
Subject: Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

Regarding Eclipse, no actually, I download the standard version then add

the subversion plugin. That's all.
And I can download versions of Netbeans and Eclipse that include Java if

I'm not mistaken.

The point folks, is that integrated is, or isn't, and we're getting away

from an 'integration level' that is useful.
I'm trying to point out that there was a reason IDE's were create.
And when you require a lot of customization, or additional software,
then you are NOT integrated.
It's about that simple. If you integrate, then do all of it, or at least

provide wizards to help with the 'extra installs'.
If you don't do either of those, then you aren't integrated.
As usual, thanks for listening, and the feedback.

Take care,
Kurt


> And from the stories we here, apparently you have to also download and

> install a whole load of plugins in order to get Eclipse to do anything

> useful.
>  
>  
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Will Hartung <mailto:willh@...>
>     *To:* nbusers@... <mailto:nbusers@...>
>     *Sent:* Monday, July 14, 2008 8:22 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>
>
>     On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:12 PM, Kurt Olsen
>     <kolsen@...
>     <mailto:kolsen@...>> wrote:
>
>         If you can't install the
>         whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT

INTEGRATED!

>
>
>     Funny, all of the IDEs I know require you to install an Operating
>     System and Java before they'll run.
>
>     All of the IDEs I know of need you to install the appropriate DB
>     drivers if you want to use any of the database functionality.
>
>     My IDE didn't come with a keyboard or mouse either, yet it seems
>     to require those in order for me to interact with it. Pretty
>     arrogant of it I think.
>
>
>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>     Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
>     Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1551 - Release Date:

7/14/2008 6:49 AM
>        
>

[Mithun Gonsalvez]

Hi Alex,

I do agree on some points that you have mentioned...

The Good Points about Eclipse

A bit more emphasis on I like NetBeans for some things, but I feel like it tries to do too much
parenting of its private user data cache and project setup files.

I have a source of about 8000+ files.

1. The Auto complete feature.
      The first time [Only Once, unless you change the complete stuff] it scans the source tree
      and then makes some indexes or some thing..... and after that ..... man it is extremely extremely extremely fast.....
      You press Ctrl + 1 (equivalent to Alt + Enter in NB), you do not have to wait.... It is not as fancy as NB but it does its job...
      Please note that the next time you open Eclipse, it uses the old indexes or some thing and it does not complain, and start scanning.

2. Fix Imports
     Much much more faster..... (In NB it some times freezes for a second or so... not noticeable some times)
     BTW, there is an option to customize the order of imports as well as a new line after imports from different packages...
         for example it might look like
                  
                   import com.abc.A
                   import com.abc.B
                   import com.abc.A

                   import net.abc.C
                   import net.abc.D
                   import net.abc.E

Please notice the new line in between....

3. Build Automatically ( There is an option to not build automatically )
     Till now i could not find an option to do this in NB. (Please correct me if i have missed this not seen this yet).
     If we disable build automatically the IDE can pick up class file from a directory where the files will be kept[ this is the compilation output ]. If it is being built automatically, the class files will go into that directory.


The Bad Points (If you are considering this as a bad points ie.)

1. "The complete bare minimum installation of Eclipse is a much more stable, faster, less memory hungry IDE that is undoubtedly faster and more feature rich in terms of sitting down and writing code."

But in some cases the bare minimum installation might not be enough, For example in my case, I do need C++ , Make / XML......
So i do have to download some additional stuff.....

2. Man... it is damn confusing......to even navigate through the menu's and the options as well.... but there is a quick search in almost everything that makes it bearable (Some times)......
In NetBeans almost every thing is ordered... and it look neat...

3. What is with those shortcuts

Not sure from where they derived from... some commonly used stuff in Eclipse

1. Goto Line (Ctrl + L)
2. Next/Previous Tab (Ctrl + PgUp /PgDwn)

These are not standard for atleat a windows user.

they are configurable, but it is sometimes irritating when you are going to some one Else's machine...... and getting stuck...... or something....




Conclusion
Netbeans has a lot of catching up to do... if it has to reach Eclipse, atleast in the performance front....
Btw, the New Versions are definetely looking promising..... Hope it does live up to its expectations....



Thanks,
Mithun Gonsalvez

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Alex Sherwin <alex.sherwin@...> wrote:

In defense of Eclipse (yes, I like Eclipse better),

What exactly do people consider "usable"? A bunch of people have said they
had to wade through tons of plugins and extra installs to make it work.

Eclipse has a few distros, including an EE distro that has built in support
for EAR, WAR and EJB creation for editing the descriptors etc, a Java
edition with some extra java stuff and CV, C/C++ (which I have not tried)
and Classic (which I use).

The only plugin I install is Checkstyles (which is in no way required to
make anything work, obviously).  The complete bare minimum installation of
Eclipse is a much more stable, faster, less memory hungry IDE that is
undoubtedly faster and more feature rich in terms of sitting down and
writing code.

So, again, in defense of Eclipse, what do you mean when you say its
unusable?  In my experience, out of the box it's one of the best free tools
I've ever used (possibly the best).

I like NetBeans for some things, but I feel like it tries to do too much
parenting of its private user data cache and project setup files.  It's too
overbearing of the projects, very inflexible in terms of how you
configure/customize the setup and layout of your project.  The recent
releases are getting better (allowing you to define relative paths to
external jars, for example) but it's still got a long way to go to be a
really powerful IDE in my opinion.

P.S.

I've never had Eclipse crash on me, in years... NetBeans has crashed on me
atleast 5 times this week (yes, there has only been one work day thus far
this week).  I will defend NetBeans a bit and admit that this is probably
from the Visual Web pack plugin and some other the other more fancy/advanced
things that it tries to do that Eclipse doesn't, but nevertheless, it still
crashes and Eclipse doesn't.

I have no choice but to use NetBeans on a daily basis side-by-side with
Eclipse, so I make due the best I can.  I spend the time to learn the
shortcuts, the equivalent useful things; such as Open type (Ctrl+O in NB,
Shift+Ctrl+T in Eclipse), Fix imports etc.  It appears to me these are
obvious and necessary features to make life better for a developer, but it's
funny how similarly they function to the way Eclipse implemented them.  In
general, they are also much slower then the Eclipse equivalent.

I hate to bash NetBeans so much, because it is a good IDE.  But being a Java
IDE, it shares a lot of features in common with Eclipse, and I happen to
think that Eclipse does just about all of those shared features better,
faster, more efficiently and without any bugs.


Alex Sherwin
alex.sherwin@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Greenberg [mailto:gary.greenberg@...]
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 11:02 PM
To: nbusers@...

Subject: RE: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

Let's just call it DDE (disintegrated development environment) :-))

I worked with both Netbeans and Eclipse (and IntelliJ Idea too).
IMHO, Netbeans is much more integrated then Eclipse (by the order of
magnitude).
I did not use Eclipse for over 2 years but I remember well all the
plugin hell I had to wade through to make it work.
Netbeans installation in comparison was a breeze.

Cheers,
       Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Olsen [mailto:kolsen@...]
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:32 PM
To: nbusers@...
Subject: Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

Regarding Eclipse, no actually, I download the standard version then add

the subversion plugin. That's all.
And I can download versions of Netbeans and Eclipse that include Java if

I'm not mistaken.

The point folks, is that integrated is, or isn't, and we're getting away

from an 'integration level' that is useful.
I'm trying to point out that there was a reason IDE's were create.
And when you require a lot of customization, or additional software,
then you are NOT integrated.
It's about that simple. If you integrate, then do all of it, or at least

provide wizards to help with the 'extra installs'.
If you don't do either of those, then you aren't integrated.
As usual, thanks for listening, and the feedback.

Take care,
Kurt


> And from the stories we here, apparently you have to also download and

> install a whole load of plugins in order to get Eclipse to do anything

> useful.
>
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Will Hartung <mailto:willh@...>
>     *To:* nbusers@... <mailto:nbusers@...>
>     *Sent:* Monday, July 14, 2008 8:22 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>
>
>     On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:12 PM, Kurt Olsen
>     <kolsen@...
>     <mailto:kolsen@...>> wrote:
>
>         If you can't install the
>         whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT
INTEGRATED!
>
>
>     Funny, all of the IDEs I know require you to install an Operating
>     System and Java before they'll run.
>
>     All of the IDEs I know of need you to install the appropriate DB
>     drivers if you want to use any of the database functionality.
>
>     My IDE didn't come with a keyboard or mouse either, yet it seems
>     to require those in order for me to interact with it. Pretty
>     arrogant of it I think.
>
>
>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>     Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>     Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1551 - Release Date:
7/14/2008 6:49 AM
>
>

[Thufir]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:12:41 +0530, Mithun Gonsalvez wrote:

> Netbeans has a lot of catching up to do... if it has to reach Eclipse,
> atleast in the performance front....
> Btw, the New Versions are definetely looking promising..... Hope it does
> live up to its expectations....


The performance gains you outline seem minimal.  Huge efforts could be
put into that for little gain, I'd rather see the developers work on
other stuff.



-Thufir

[Mithun Gonsalvez]

Hi Thufir,

No offense man... I think you should try with some extremely huge source codes...
Try at least 8000+ with around 1500+ files having at least 2-3 Inner classes [Not sure whether this counts]
then you would see that the performance is poor..... at least when compared to Eclipse.

Thanks,
Mithun

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 1:09 PM, thufir <hawat.thufir@...> wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:12:41 +0530, Mithun Gonsalvez wrote:

> Netbeans has a lot of catching up to do... if it has to reach Eclipse,
> atleast in the performance front....
> Btw, the New Versions are definetely looking promising..... Hope it does
> live up to its expectations....

The performance gains you outline seem minimal.  Huge efforts could be
put into that for little gain, I'd rather see the developers work on
other stuff.



-Thufir

[Melongo Annabel]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Kurt,

I really understand your frustration and I like your rhetoric. Maybe the "integrated" download will fall into the ears of netbeans ide developers...

----- Original Message ----
From: Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...>
To: nbusers@...
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Thanks for listening,
Kurt

[Melongo Annabel]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Kurt,

I really understand your frustration and I like your rhetoric. Maybe the "integrated" download will fall into the ears of netbeans ide developers...

----- Original Message ----
From: Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...>
To: nbusers@...
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Thanks for listening,
Kurt

[Marc Farrow]

Maybe we should open up a complaint mailing list just for Kurt.

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:09 AM, Melongo Annabel <melongo_annabel@...> wrote:

Kurt,

I really understand your frustration and I like your rhetoric. Maybe the "integrated" download will fall into the ears of netbeans ide developers...

----- Original Message ----
From: Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...>
To: nbusers@...
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Thanks for listening,
Kurt

[Andreas Hesse]

Howdidowdoe :)

Totally disagree. If you integrate all kind of tools into the NB package you force the devs (aka you & me) to use a
specific version of this 'integrated' tools. That's absolutely NOT what i want. If i must use a specific version of a
tool, i don't want NB to force me to use a differnt one.


> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...>
> To: nbusers@...
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
> Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>

<snipsnap>

> You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
> additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
> Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
> because of......" save it please.

lol, thats pure ignorance. Ever thought about licence probs? (*shakehead*)

> You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
> point?
> You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
> installed....
Who says i'm not integtrated? Of course I'm integrated in my social environment. ;)

IMHO NB is an *configurable* IDE which could be enhanced by configuration.
Don't mess things up. You get everything you need for the Code-compile-run/debug cycle right from the start.

BTW, Im quite sure that other IDE's even dont offer the possiblily to integrate additional tools.

>
> If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
> ARE NOT INTEGRATED!
Bah, it's quite easy to shout into the woods.. Im forced to use special tools  with specific versions. You're lucky if
you're not. If NB would install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here it would be useless for us.

>
> Thanks for listening,
> Kurt
PS: Go ahead, give MS-DEVStudio a try. You will be amazed what it *CAN'T* do.


Regards,
Andreas

[wbossons]

That's not fair. The points about stability are well taken. I've used Netbeans off and on since version 2.0, and Eclipse as well. I'm currently using Netbeans because it's a requirement, but I'm yearning for the stability that I found with Eclipse. I often find that the Netbeans releases contain unneeded and sometimes annoying feature improvements -- witness the countless auto color selecting scenarios -- while not addressing the need for stability and improvement in the current feature set, or perhaps implementing new features that introduce instability into the previous feature set. I think that some folks have just gotten accustomed to the issues and somehow have learned to shrug their shoulders and say "oh well -- that's Netbeans for you". I think also that happens because folks like the open source concept and see the promise of Netbeans as truly an industry leading ide if it were more stable.

..\Wendy

****************

Marc Farrow wrote:

Maybe we should open up a complaint mailing list just for Kurt.

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:09 AM, Melongo Annabel <melongo_annabel@...> wrote:

Kurt,

I really understand your frustration and I like your rhetoric. Maybe the "integrated" download will fall into the ears of netbeans ide developers...

----- Original Message ----
From: Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...>
To: nbusers@...
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Thanks for listening,
Kurt

[joshis]

Kurt, where to start... First I will say I will write only one post to
this thread, this one. I don't want to spend my young years by
discussion on this subject...

In context of NB, "integrated" means that you can use many tools
required for SW development in only one application. In other words -
one running application provides various functionality (versioning,
mobility/web/... development, SVG design, ...) by means of various
plugins (I would emphasize here that NB is both IDE and platform).

But it does not neccessarily mean that all the functionality of those
various tools needs to be directly included in the IDE (Do we really
need to write our own versioning system or implement full CVS/SVN/Hg
again inspite of existence of original and well working implementations?
Do we need to "integrate" it in NB to make you satisfied? Thousands of
people would say it is a M$ strategy... There are people complaining
about the fact we included VisualVM in JDK, saying we are pushing
NetBeans platform, as VisualVM uses it...). It also does not mean that
you don't need to download some tools that integrate with NB. Word
"integrated" is more about providing interface for attaching additional
functionality.

Read more for example here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_integration: "In information
technology, systems integration is the process of linking together
different computing systems and software applications physically or
functionally".

Now on a personal note: may I ask you if you could try to answer your
questions/remarks/comments before you make a post here? Make an
opposition to your own ideas first. Try to realize if your posts here
are constructive, if they can bring something new, something else then
just an empty but extremely loud discussion about various points of view
(on simple things, IMO). Provide some possible solutions (I would
emhasize the word "possible" here...).

(And if I can say something purely for myself - use a bit different and
less "roaring" rhetorics... I mean: "It would be nice if you provided
the interface for full instalation of Hg and if you provided tighter
integration of Hg in general - I know it will be hard due to the
platform specific issues - but it would make working with NB sources
easier, for example" instead of "If you can't install the
whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT INTEGRATED!")

Now, if you want to download NB sources, read here first:
http://wiki.netbeans.org/HgHowTos, but I would suggest you to use Ubuntu
linux, it is the easiest (takes some 2 hours...) - read the script, I
think it is very, very simple:

#get everything that is needed
sudo apt-get install ant ant-optional sun-java5-jdk mercurial
mkdir ~/nbSrc
cd ~/nbSrc
#get nb sources, 1hour+
hg -v clone http://hg.netbeans.org/main
cd ~/nbSrc/main
#introduce variables
sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >  
~/.nbbuild.properties
sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
#following three lines are of category "Just-In-Case"
sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >  
~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  
~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  
~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
#more memory is needed for the build
export ANT_OPTS="-Xmx384m"
#build 40min+
ant -f build.xml
#run IDE
ant tryme

With regards,

Petr Dvorak

>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...>
> To: nbusers@...
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
> Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>
> I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
> to download all the sources and try building this beast.
> So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
> that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
> I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
> doesn't work at all...
>
> Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
> requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
> Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
> could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.
>
>
> Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
> were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
> developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
> As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
> this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
> did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
> long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
> and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
> developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.
>
> But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
> 'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
> So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
> remind you of something.
>
> You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
> additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
> Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
> because of......" save it please.
> You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
> point?
> You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
> installed....
>
> If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
> ARE NOT INTEGRATED!
>
> Thanks for listening,
> Kurt

[Thomas Wolf-4]

Mithun,
Did you try disabling the jar building for your day-to-day edit->compile->debug/run cycle?  I was having miserable cycle time until I did that.  Our project "only" has 4000 files, but they're highly complex (many inner classes, most > 1kloc).  Anyway, this feature was added after 6.0 came out, I think , after a bug I filed.  See if that helps you - helped me tremendously.

tom

p.s. it's under Project->Build->Packaging->"Build Jar After Compiling".  I also have "Track Java Dependencies" unchecked under the Build->Compile area.

Mithun Gonsalvez wrote:

Hi Thufir,

No offense man... I think you should try with some extremely huge source codes...
Try at least 8000+ with around 1500+ files having at least 2-3 Inner classes [Not sure whether this counts]
then you would see that the performance is poor..... at least when compared to Eclipse.

Thanks,
Mithun

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 1:09 PM, thufir <hawat.thufir@...> wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:12:41 +0530, Mithun Gonsalvez wrote:

> Netbeans has a lot of catching up to do... if it has to reach Eclipse,
> atleast in the performance front....
> Btw, the New Versions are definetely looking promising..... Hope it does
> live up to its expectations....

The performance gains you outline seem minimal.  Huge efforts could be
put into that for little gain, I'd rather see the developers work on
other stuff.



-Thufir

[Melongo Annabel]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Really funny Gary,

Maybe from now on we should call it just that "DDE". Can you imagine you go to an interview and you tell the interviewer, by the way the "DDE" I'm accustomed to is Netbeans.....

----- Original Message ----
From: Gary Greenberg <gary.greenberg@...>
To: nbusers@...
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 10:02:04 PM
Subject: RE: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

Let's just call it DDE (disintegrated development environment) :-))

I worked with both Netbeans and Eclipse (and IntelliJ Idea too).
IMHO, Netbeans is much more integrated then Eclipse (by the order of
magnitude).
I did not use Eclipse for over 2 years but I remember well all the
plugin hell I had to wade through to make it work.
Netbeans installation in comparison was a breeze.

Cheers,
    Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Olsen [mailto:kolsen@...]
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:32 PM
To: nbusers@...
Subject: Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

Regarding Eclipse, no actually, I download the standard version then add

the subversion plugin. That's all.
And I can download versions of Netbeans and Eclipse that include Java if

I'm not mistaken.

The point folks, is that integrated is, or isn't, and we're getting away

from an 'integration level' that is useful.
I'm trying to point out that there was a reason IDE's were create.
And when you require a lot of customization, or additional software,
then you are NOT integrated.
It's about that simple. If you integrate, then do all of it, or at least

provide wizards to help with the 'extra installs'.
If you don't do either of those, then you aren't integrated.
As usual, thanks for listening, and the feedback.

Take care,
Kurt


> And from the stories we here, apparently you have to also download and

> install a whole load of plugins in order to get Eclipse to do anything

> useful.
> 
> 
>
>    ----- Original Message -----
>    *From:* Will Hartung <mailto:willh@...>
>    *To:* nbusers@... <mailto:nbusers@...>
>    *Sent:* Monday, July 14, 2008 8:22 PM
>    *Subject:* Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>
>
>    On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:12 PM, Kurt Olsen
>    <kolsen@...
>    <mailto:kolsen@...>> wrote:
>
>        If you can't install the
>        whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT

INTEGRATED!

>
>
>    Funny, all of the IDEs I know require you to install an Operating
>    System and Java before they'll run.
>
>    All of the IDEs I know of need you to install the appropriate DB
>    drivers if you want to use any of the database functionality.
>
>    My IDE didn't come with a keyboard or mouse either, yet it seems
>    to require those in order for me to interact with it. Pretty
>    arrogant of it I think.
>
>
>    No virus found in this incoming message.
>    Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>    Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1551 - Release Date:

7/14/2008 6:49 AM
>       
>

[Thomas Wolf-4]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

I don't like it.  Although Kurt's previous postings had some good points, this is just mindless and/or obvious drivel.  I think Petr's reply to the posting does a good, diplomatic, job of responding to it.

Sorry Kurt, but shouting out your _opinion_ on what constitutes "integrated" does not make it a reality - nor does it help make NB better.
Tom


Melongo Annabel wrote:

Kurt,

I really understand your frustration and I like your rhetoric. Maybe the "integrated" download will fall into the ears of netbeans ide developers...

----- Original Message ----
From: Kurt Olsen kolsen@...
To: nbusers@...
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Thanks for listening,
Kurt

[Mithun Gonsalvez]

Hey Tom,
That is the first thing i disabled .... when i put up that project and saw that it was building a jar after compile, Thanks anyway :-)

Now i am on a mission to split up all the files into dependent projects, but i am not sure what will be the outcome...... and how much performance improvement i can expect..... or worst even whether there will be any .....

But i do manage.... Because i like NB way better than Eclipse....
And sometimes when i see that Eclipse is Much more faster ... it kinda feels bad...

Thanks,
Mithun

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Thomas Wolf <twolf@...> wrote:

Mithun,
Did you try disabling the jar building for your day-to-day edit->compile->debug/run cycle?  I was having miserable cycle time until I did that.  Our project "only" has 4000 files, but they're highly complex (many inner classes, most > 1kloc).  Anyway, this feature was added after 6.0 came out, I think , after a bug I filed.  See if that helps you - helped me tremendously.

tom

p.s. it's under Project->Build->Packaging->"Build Jar After Compiling".  I also have "Track Java Dependencies" unchecked under the Build->Compile area.

Mithun Gonsalvez wrote:

Hi Thufir,

No offense man... I think you should try with some extremely huge source codes...
Try at least 8000+ with around 1500+ files having at least 2-3 Inner classes [Not sure whether this counts]
then you would see that the performance is poor..... at least when compared to Eclipse.

Thanks,
Mithun

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 1:09 PM, thufir <hawat.thufir@...> wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:12:41 +0530, Mithun Gonsalvez wrote:

> Netbeans has a lot of catching up to do... if it has to reach Eclipse,
> atleast in the performance front....
> Btw, the New Versions are definetely looking promising..... Hope it does
> live up to its expectations....

The performance gains you outline seem minimal.  Huge efforts could be
put into that for little gain, I'd rather see the developers work on
other stuff.



-Thufir