No EOL control in NB 6.1?

[Alex Sherwin]

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Mithun,

 

If you try to have projects share some common source directories (as I have done recently), you will find that NetBeans will not allow you to add a source folder to your project that is referenced by another NetBeans project.

 

This was much to my amazement when I tried it, in my opinion NetBeans should have NO idea that another project is using a given folder for ANYTHING.  Another major pitfall to the nannying project config files and user data cache NB uses are problems like these.  However, if you delete the NetBeans cache inside your home directory (i.e. “C:\Documents and Settings\alex\.netbeans\6.1\var\cache\index\0.8\*”), then you will be able to add that shared src folder to another project.  You will have to repeat this until you add that folder to all the desired projects.

 

Surprisingly, at this point, you can have all of those projects open simultaneously with the shared source with no issues.  Whose idea was it to let NetBeans tell the developers how they can and cant setup their files?

 

 

Alex Sherwin

alex.sherwin@...

 

From: Mithun Gonsalvez [mailto:mithungonsalvez@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 11:31 AM
To: nbusers@...
Subject: Re: [nbusers] Re: The meaning of Integrated

 

Hey Tom,
That is the first thing i disabled .... when i put up that project and saw that it was building a jar after compile, Thanks anyway :-)

Now i am on a mission to split up all the files into dependent projects, but i am not sure what will be the outcome...... and how much performance improvement i can expect..... or worst even whether there will be any .....

But i do manage.... Because i like NB way better than Eclipse....
And sometimes when i see that Eclipse is Much more faster ... it kinda feels bad...

Thanks,
Mithun

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Thomas Wolf <twolf@...> wrote:

Mithun,
Did you try disabling the jar building for your day-to-day edit->compile->debug/run cycle?  I was having miserable cycle time until I did that.  Our project "only" has 4000 files, but they're highly complex (many inner classes, most > 1kloc).  Anyway, this feature was added after 6.0 came out, I think , after a bug I filed.  See if that helps you - helped me tremendously.

tom

p.s. it's under Project->Build->Packaging->"Build Jar After Compiling".  I also have "Track Java Dependencies" unchecked under the Build->Compile area.

Mithun Gonsalvez wrote:

Hi Thufir,

No offense man... I think you should try with some extremely huge source codes...
Try at least 8000+ with around 1500+ files having at least 2-3 Inner classes [Not sure whether this counts]
then you would see that the performance is poor..... at least when compared to Eclipse.

Thanks,
Mithun

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 1:09 PM, thufir <hawat.thufir@...> wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:12:41 +0530, Mithun Gonsalvez wrote:

> Netbeans has a lot of catching up to do... if it has to reach Eclipse,
> atleast in the performance front....
> Btw, the New Versions are definetely looking promising..... Hope it does
> live up to its expectations....

The performance gains you outline seem minimal.  Huge efforts could be
put into that for little gain, I'd rather see the developers work on
other stuff.



-Thufir

 

 

[Louis Botterill]

Hey Mithun,

This is _exactly_ a problem I've been a little surprised about for a little while now. My work around was to add the src path a level higher up (until it doesn't clash) close the project, edit the project file by hand to amend it by adding the rest of the path in and then reload it - voilà it's fine, just as you say...

Your solution/work around is probably better, I'll try that next time...

I too was shocked to see this level of restriction and to learn it works just fine anyway when you apply a work around.

Exactly as you say, NB should care or impose constraints regarding imports and source directories, this is plain wrong!

At the time I first discovered it I wondered if it was some "best practice" thing encouraging us to use library projects - in fact I think I saw this as a suggested solution. That's fine, if I want libraries anyway, but in the case where I don't need them, I'd rather not be forced into it due to the traits of an IDE.

I guess someone should raise a bug / enhancement on this - does anyone know if there already is one for it?

I'd say this is fairly fundamental issue that should be addressed. Not wanting to get off-topic, since this thread is about the meaning of integrated...

and my two pennith is Netbeans is just as integrated than most other ides and having to download modules / dependencies is clearly a good thing because simply "1 size" ide can't "fit all" purposes and extensibility via modularity is a common, age old solution to this problem. As has been mentioned, having the ability to mix and match and extend via downloading and installing separate versions of external software tools (say JBoss, Glassfish, Subversion etc) is an absolute must have ability for any IDE (IMHO) - so I struggle to see how Netbeans can be criticised in this respec over alternatives.

I would say if every issue found is turned into a full blown drama, the important issues will get lost in the noise... :)

[Mithun Gonsalvez]

Hey Alex / Louis,

Thank you both for the Info provided.... it does solve a lot of problems/pain that would have come up.........

Thanks again,
Mithun

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Louis Botterill <[e-mail]> wrote:

Hey Mithun,

This is _exactly_ a problem I've been a little surprised about for a little while now. My work around was to add the src path a level higher up (until it doesn't clash) close the project, edit the project file by hand to amend it by adding the rest of the path in and then reload it - voilà it's fine, just as you say...

Your solution/work around is probably better, I'll try that next time...

I too was shocked to see this level of restriction and to learn it works just fine anyway when you apply a work around.

Exactly as you say, NB should care or impose constraints regarding imports and source directories, this is plain wrong!

At the time I first discovered it I wondered if it was some "best practice" thing encouraging us to use library projects - in fact I think I saw this as a suggested solution. That's fine, if I want libraries anyway, but in the case where I don't need them, I'd rather not be forced into it due to the traits of an IDE.

I guess someone should raise a bug / enhancement on this - does anyone know if there already is one for it?

I'd say this is fairly fundamental issue that should be addressed. Not wanting to get off-topic, since this thread is about the meaning of integrated...

and my two pennith is Netbeans is just as integrated than most other ides and having to download modules / dependencies is clearly a good thing because simply "1 size" ide can't "fit all" purposes and extensibility via modularity is a common, age old solution to this problem. As has been mentioned, having the ability to mix and match and extend via downloading and installing separate versions of external software tools (say JBoss, Glassfish, Subversion etc) is an absolute must have ability for any IDE (IMHO) - so I struggle to see how Netbeans can be criticised in this respec over alternatives.

I would say if every issue found is turned into a full blown drama, the important issues will get lost in the noise... :)

[Thufir]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:29:25 -0400, Wendy Bossons wrote:

> I think
> also that happens because folks like the open source concept and see the
> promise of Netbeans as truly an industry leading ide if it were more
> stable.


Ditto.  I find that after I use NB for a while it starts to bog down.  
Exiting and restarting fixes that.


-Thufir

[Glenn Holmer]

On Mon, 2008-07-14 at 13:12 -1000, Kurt Olsen wrote:
> Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
> because of......" save it please.

That is absolutely one of the most arrogant, self-centered posts I've
ever seen on an Open Source mailing list.

--
____________________________________________________________
Glenn Holmer                          gholmer@...
Software Engineer                        phone: [phone]
Weyco Group, Inc.                          fax: [phone]

[Daoud]

- As a developer I have more tasks then just writing code and NetBeans
is what giving me this ability.
- Manage configurations is a complete software field and that's at the
core of any thing willing to call itself an IDE. (NetBeans Do!)
- Manage software life cycle is must have. (NetBeans Do!)
- Extensibility and interfaces to the external word are what mean
Integration. (NetBeans Do!)
- Calling himself integrated is being able to communicate with that
world. (NetBeans Do!)
- In OSS era let users imagine and build their own scenarios, trying to
fill in all of possibilities is running to failure! (NetBeans Do!)
- Trying to optimise performance early is always doomed to failure!
Getting a working prototype and continuously improve it a more mature
pattern. Don't fear massive refactoring Agile guys would say!
- If you want to leave on the bleeding edge of latest feature||version
do it at your own risk! Am still running some servers with 2.4 kernel
and wont switch till I evaluated the risk and tested the migration.
- There is nothing bad in trying to reach a larger audience
(ruby/php/python/c/put whatever here) since the core platform allow it.
All NB users will benefit from a larger audience since each user will be
a potential tester providing he's willing to integrate the community and
being CONSTRUCTIVE. It's at the heart of OS movement!
- NetBeans developers are being very responsive, I've faced the silly
arrogant 'do it yourself' || 'RTFM' automatic hackish-script-kiddies
attitude in many other OSS communities with massif eccentric self
oriented ego.

A final word, I choose to use NB and take the risk that come with it as
in any life activity that could mess at any time. I simply raise the
problem (to issuezilla or mailing list) got help and tried to help. I
deal with the risk as i do with normal life when I cross the road or
went to the doctor or eat medicines...



--
http://kissthedots.blogspot.com/

"Le dieu n'est pas a craindre ; la mort ne donne pas de souci ; et
tandis que le bien est facile a obtenir, le mal est facile a supporter."

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
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[Kurt Olsen-3]

DDE? Good one?
I have to agree about Eclipse, I remember trying 3-4 times over say two
years, before I finally learned all the magic spells, and when to incant
them!


Gary Greenberg wrote:

> Let's just call it DDE (disintegrated development environment) :-))
>
> I worked with both Netbeans and Eclipse (and IntelliJ Idea too).
> IMHO, Netbeans is much more integrated then Eclipse (by the order of
> magnitude).
> I did not use Eclipse for over 2 years but I remember well all the
> plugin hell I had to wade through to make it work.
> Netbeans installation in comparison was a breeze.
>
> Cheers,
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kurt Olsen [mailto:kolsen@...]
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:32 PM
> To: nbusers@...
> Subject: Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>
> Regarding Eclipse, no actually, I download the standard version then add
>
> the subversion plugin. That's all.
> And I can download versions of Netbeans and Eclipse that include Java if
>
> I'm not mistaken.
>
> The point folks, is that integrated is, or isn't, and we're getting away
>
> from an 'integration level' that is useful.
> I'm trying to point out that there was a reason IDE's were create.
> And when you require a lot of customization, or additional software,
> then you are NOT integrated.
> It's about that simple. If you integrate, then do all of it, or at least
>
> provide wizards to help with the 'extra installs'.
> If you don't do either of those, then you aren't integrated.
> As usual, thanks for listening, and the feedback.
>
> Take care,
> Kurt
>
>
>  
>> And from the stories we here, apparently you have to also download and
>>    
>
>  
>> install a whole load of plugins in order to get Eclipse to do anything
>>    
>
>  
>> useful.
>>  
>>  
>>
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>     *From:* Will Hartung <mailto:willh@...>
>>     *To:* nbusers@... <mailto:nbusers@...>
>>     *Sent:* Monday, July 14, 2008 8:22 PM
>>     *Subject:* Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>>
>>
>>     On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:12 PM, Kurt Olsen
>>     <kolsen@...
>>     <mailto:kolsen@...>> wrote:
>>
>>         If you can't install the
>>         whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT
>>    
> INTEGRATED!
>  
>>     Funny, all of the IDEs I know require you to install an Operating
>>     System and Java before they'll run.
>>
>>     All of the IDEs I know of need you to install the appropriate DB
>>     drivers if you want to use any of the database functionality.
>>
>>     My IDE didn't come with a keyboard or mouse either, yet it seems
>>     to require those in order for me to interact with it. Pretty
>>     arrogant of it I think.
>>
>>
>>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>>     Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
>>     Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1551 - Release Date:
>>    
> 7/14/2008 6:49 AM
>  
>>        
>>
>>    
>
>
>  

[Alex Sherwin]

All those things you listed, Eclipse does.  Faster.  No bugs.  It's not
nearly has hard as everyone here seems to think it is... how else do you
learn how to use any application?  Look at the menus (appropriately labeled)
and if you use it a lot, look at the shortcut and start using it.  It has
great contextual menu support as well.

Again, not intending just to bash NetBeans because it does all (or at least
most) of these things too, but there seems to be some misconception that
NetBeans does something that Eclipse doesn't.

The only thing I can think of that NetBeans has exclusively is the visual
drag and drop designers.  And of these, the only useful one is for the
desktop apps; I've spent a good amount of time with the Visual Web stuff and
it's just not a viable option if your employer wants something that doesn't
look like crap.  Sorry VWP guys, but it's true... your stuff works fine for
simple drag and drop demos and presentations, but seriously have you tried
anything besides a 2 page app, and a real fluid (non abs positioned/sized)
layout using your designer?  Nearly impossible.

In fact, I think the descriptor editors for things like EARs and WARs are
better in the Eclipse EE support.  The latest 3.4 release that just came out
has a pretty nice list of enhancements for many view customizations and
javadocs as well (definitely well surpassing that of what NetBeans currently
does).

I'm sure I sound like an Eclipse fanatic, but I'm just trying to keep an
open mind here.  I use Eclipse and NetBeans side by side all day, I know how
to do the equivalent of everything in both (all the same shortcuts, how to
run and deploy to app servers from within the IDEs [yes, Eclipse does this
too, very easily], manage custom projects etc).  With the current state of
both IDEs, I almost always have to lean towards the Eclipse implementation.

Sorry, but that's how I see it right now.  I want NetBeans to continue to
improve and grow because I know I will be using it for many years into the
future, and I would love for it to work as well for me as Eclipse already
does.

Also, the mentality floating around this mailing list seems to hover around
the fact that the NB guys keep trying to put in "bleeding-edge" stuff (like
VWP, appserver/db integration etc), and use it as an excuse for the often
buggy and poor performance of the IDE.  If these kind of technologies keep
getting crammed into NB more so every release (new profiler, for ex) then
the performance and stability of the IDE is NEVER going to improve.  I
whole-heartedly agree with some of the previous suggestions that an entire
major release should be dedicated to bug fixes, stability and speed
enhancements in any way possible.  A smooth, fast and efficient working
environment is crucial for anyone who is using the IDE all day every day;
every time I do something in NB that causes it to become unresponsive for
any amount of time, I have to go do something else.

Realistically, if I used NB exclusively all day ever day, and waited for all
the pauses and hangs in the IDE instead of doing something else while I
waited, I would have to estimate that anywhere from 25% to 33% of my day
would be wasted just WAITING for the IDE to do something that should be
instant.


My 2c.



Alex Sherwin
alex.sherwin@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Daoud AbdelMonem Faleh [mailto:abdelmonem.faleh@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:54 PM
To: nbusers@...
Subject: Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

- As a developer I have more tasks then just writing code and NetBeans
is what giving me this ability.
- Manage configurations is a complete software field and that's at the
core of any thing willing to call itself an IDE. (NetBeans Do!)
- Manage software life cycle is must have. (NetBeans Do!)
- Extensibility and interfaces to the external word are what mean
Integration. (NetBeans Do!)
- Calling himself integrated is being able to communicate with that
world. (NetBeans Do!)
- In OSS era let users imagine and build their own scenarios, trying to
fill in all of possibilities is running to failure! (NetBeans Do!)
- Trying to optimise performance early is always doomed to failure!
Getting a working prototype and continuously improve it a more mature
pattern. Don't fear massive refactoring Agile guys would say!
- If you want to leave on the bleeding edge of latest feature||version
do it at your own risk! Am still running some servers with 2.4 kernel
and wont switch till I evaluated the risk and tested the migration.
- There is nothing bad in trying to reach a larger audience
(ruby/php/python/c/put whatever here) since the core platform allow it.
All NB users will benefit from a larger audience since each user will be
a potential tester providing he's willing to integrate the community and
being CONSTRUCTIVE. It's at the heart of OS movement!
- NetBeans developers are being very responsive, I've faced the silly
arrogant 'do it yourself' || 'RTFM' automatic hackish-script-kiddies
attitude in many other OSS communities with massif eccentric self
oriented ego.

A final word, I choose to use NB and take the risk that come with it as
in any life activity that could mess at any time. I simply raise the
problem (to issuezilla or mailing list) got help and tried to help. I
deal with the risk as i do with normal life when I cross the road or
went to the doctor or eat medicines...



--
http://kissthedots.blogspot.com/

"Le dieu n'est pas a craindre ; la mort ne donne pas de souci ; et
tandis que le bien est facile a obtenir, le mal est facile a supporter."

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.11/1553 - Release Date: 15/07/2008
05:48

[Kurt Olsen-3]

Well said Wendy.

> That's not fair. The points about stability are well taken. I've used
> Netbeans off and on since version 2.0, and Eclipse as well. I'm
> currently using Netbeans because it's a requirement, but I'm yearning
> for the stability that I found with Eclipse. I often find that the
> Netbeans releases contain unneeded and sometimes annoying feature
> improvements -- witness the countless auto color selecting scenarios
> -- while not addressing the need for stability and improvement in the
> current feature set, or perhaps implementing new features that
> introduce instability into the previous feature set. I think that some
> folks have just gotten accustomed to the issues and somehow have
> learned to shrug their shoulders and say "oh well -- that's Netbeans
> for you". I think also that happens because folks like the open source
> concept and see the promise of Netbeans as truly an industry leading
> ide if it were more stable.
>
> ..\Wendy
>
> ****************
>
> Marc Farrow wrote:
>> Maybe we should open up a complaint mailing list just for Kurt.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:09 AM, Melongo Annabel
>> <melongo_annabel@... <mailto:melongo_annabel@...>> wrote:
>>
>>     Kurt,
>>     I really understand your frustration and I like your rhetoric.
>>     Maybe the "integrated" download will fall into the ears of
>>     netbeans ide developers...
>>
>>     ----- Original Message ----
>>     From: Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...
>>     <mailto:kolsen@...>>
>>     To: nbusers@... <mailto:nbusers@...>
>>     Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
>>     Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>>
>>     I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I
>>     decided
>>     to download all the sources and try building this beast.
>>     So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember
>>     reading
>>     that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used
>>     before.
>>     I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it
>>     is......but it
>>     doesn't work at all...
>>
>>     Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
>>     requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
>>     Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe
>>     not, I
>>     could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.
>>
>>
>>     Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we?
>>     Before there
>>     were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And
>>     every
>>     developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed
>>     themselves.
>>     As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
>>     this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and
>>     they
>>     did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we
>>     purchased them
>>     long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the
>>     curtain,
>>     and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
>>     developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.
>>
>>     But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
>>     'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
>>     So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
>>     remind you of something.
>>
>>     You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
>>     additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
>>     Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
>>     because of......" save it please.
>>     You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are
>>     not.....got
>>     point?
>>     You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
>>     installed....
>>
>>     If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here -
>>     YOU
>>     ARE NOT INTEGRATED!
>>
>>     Thanks for listening,
>>     Kurt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ..\Wendy
> Wendy Bossons
> Senior User Interface Developer
> Harvard-MIT Data Center
> Office Phone:  [phone]
> Email: wbossons <at> hmdc.harvard.edu

[Kurt Olsen-3]

Understood Petr....

Regarding IDE's ... I was there for the birth of them...I know what the
intent of an IDE originally was...And we're losing that....
That's not a thing that I'm willing to give up on ok?
Nor am I willing to accept the quality level currently displayed in
Netbeans....
Seriously, If you guys worked for me I'd shut this thing down until the
developers had learned to look at what they're doing with different eyes....
You may not like hearing that, but like it or not I am a senior
developer and I've earned the right to be this critical...
Make me happy, read between the lines, I hate pointing out the most
serious and idiotic behavior...THAT'S THE POINT
Why do these bugs get into production at ALL?
I'll be quite happy, if every netbeans coder wonders what I'd have to
say about their latest code....And tries NOT to attract my attention!

I've had my say(s), I will go silent on the complaints, will however
toss in help when I think I can answer someone's questions...

Thanks for listening,
FIX THE BUGS!
Kurt






Petr Dvorak wrote:

> Kurt, where to start... First I will say I will write only one post to
> this thread, this one. I don't want to spend my young years by
> discussion on this subject...
>
> In context of NB, "integrated" means that you can use many tools
> required for SW development in only one application. In other words -
> one running application provides various functionality (versioning,
> mobility/web/... development, SVG design, ...) by means of various
> plugins (I would emphasize here that NB is both IDE and platform).
>
> But it does not neccessarily mean that all the functionality of those
> various tools needs to be directly included in the IDE (Do we really
> need to write our own versioning system or implement full CVS/SVN/Hg
> again inspite of existence of original and well working
> implementations? Do we need to "integrate" it in NB to make you
> satisfied? Thousands of people would say it is a M$ strategy... There
> are people complaining about the fact we included VisualVM in JDK,
> saying we are pushing NetBeans platform, as VisualVM uses it...). It
> also does not mean that you don't need to download some tools that
> integrate with NB. Word "integrated" is more about providing interface
> for attaching additional functionality.
>
> Read more for example here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_integration: "In information
> technology, systems integration is the process of linking together
> different computing systems and software applications physically or
> functionally".
>
> Now on a personal note: may I ask you if you could try to answer your
> questions/remarks/comments before you make a post here? Make an
> opposition to your own ideas first. Try to realize if your posts here
> are constructive, if they can bring something new, something else then
> just an empty but extremely loud discussion about various points of
> view (on simple things, IMO). Provide some possible solutions (I would
> emhasize the word "possible" here...).
>
> (And if I can say something purely for myself - use a bit different
> and less "roaring" rhetorics... I mean: "It would be nice if you
> provided the interface for full instalation of Hg and if you provided
> tighter integration of Hg in general - I know it will be hard due to
> the platform specific issues - but it would make working with NB
> sources easier, for example" instead of "If you can't install the
> whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT INTEGRATED!")
>
> Now, if you want to download NB sources, read here first:
> http://wiki.netbeans.org/HgHowTos, but I would suggest you to use
> Ubuntu linux, it is the easiest (takes some 2 hours...) - read the
> script, I think it is very, very simple:
>
> #get everything that is needed
> sudo apt-get install ant ant-optional sun-java5-jdk mercurial
> mkdir ~/nbSrc
> cd ~/nbSrc
> #get nb sources, 1hour+
> hg -v clone http://hg.netbeans.org/main
> cd ~/nbSrc/main
> #introduce variables
> sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >  
> ~/.nbbuild.properties
> sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
> sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
> #following three lines are of category "Just-In-Case"
> sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >  
> ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
> sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  
> ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
> sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  
> ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
> #more memory is needed for the build
> export ANT_OPTS="-Xmx384m"
> #build 40min+
> ant -f build.xml
> #run IDE
> ant tryme
>
> With regards,
>
> Petr Dvorak
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...>
>> To: nbusers@...
>> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
>> Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>>
>> I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
>> to download all the sources and try building this beast.
>> So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
>> that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
>> I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
>> doesn't work at all...
>>
>> Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
>> requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
>> Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
>> could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.
>>
>>
>> Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
>> were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
>> developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
>> As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
>> this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
>> did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
>> long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
>> and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
>> developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.
>>
>> But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
>> 'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
>> So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
>> remind you of something.
>>
>> You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
>> additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
>> Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
>> because of......" save it please.
>> You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
>> point?
>> You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
>> installed....
>>
>> If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
>> ARE NOT INTEGRATED!
>>
>> Thanks for listening,
>> Kurt
>

[Oddvard M]

Good colleagues,

I have followed the discussion and (hopefully at the end of it..?) I will
contribute to the discussion with my experience with NB.

I started using NB 1,5 years ago. I have 25 years of experience in
programming in C/C++ (Unix/Windows) but non of it was with WEB tech. So, I
was handled a tall order when my (mostly grumpy) boss (also younger than
me..grrrr) tossed me a WEB app development and told me to develop it on my
own. I started looking for an IDE and tried eclipse for a month. Not knowing
the tech at all I came nowhere. I simply could not get a handle on it..!
Then I tried NB (5.5) and was able to get a an application up and running
the first day..! That enabled me to develop and learn by example..which
everyone that earns his living in programming will agree on..GET AN EXAMPLE
WORKING AND READ IT IN DEBUGGER..then you learn.

NB is buggy, but it is improving. I also believe that the behaviour of the
IDE is dependent on what elements you are using. There is a lot of stuff in
NB..! I use VWP, top-link persistence and IReport in my app. I have no
problems other than slow openening of VWP designer, and top-link get a
little confused sometimes. Easy to fix though.

I will say that for me, without NB I would not been able to get the job
done. For people with little or no experience with WEB tech NB is a good, if
not excellent tool. I am sure eclipse is so too, but the learning threshold
for newbies is lower in NB.

Oddvard

-----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Olsen [mailto:kolsen@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 9:33 PM
To: nbusers@...
Subject: Re: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated


Understood Petr....

Regarding IDE's ... I was there for the birth of them...I know what the
intent of an IDE originally was...And we're losing that....
That's not a thing that I'm willing to give up on ok?
Nor am I willing to accept the quality level currently displayed in
Netbeans....
Seriously, If you guys worked for me I'd shut this thing down until the
developers had learned to look at what they're doing with different eyes....
You may not like hearing that, but like it or not I am a senior
developer and I've earned the right to be this critical...
Make me happy, read between the lines, I hate pointing out the most
serious and idiotic behavior...THAT'S THE POINT
Why do these bugs get into production at ALL?
I'll be quite happy, if every netbeans coder wonders what I'd have to
say about their latest code....And tries NOT to attract my attention!

I've had my say(s), I will go silent on the complaints, will however
toss in help when I think I can answer someone's questions...

Thanks for listening,
FIX THE BUGS!
Kurt






Petr Dvorak wrote:

> Kurt, where to start... First I will say I will write only one post to
> this thread, this one. I don't want to spend my young years by
> discussion on this subject...
>
> In context of NB, "integrated" means that you can use many tools
> required for SW development in only one application. In other words -
> one running application provides various functionality (versioning,
> mobility/web/... development, SVG design, ...) by means of various
> plugins (I would emphasize here that NB is both IDE and platform).
>
> But it does not neccessarily mean that all the functionality of those
> various tools needs to be directly included in the IDE (Do we really
> need to write our own versioning system or implement full CVS/SVN/Hg
> again inspite of existence of original and well working
> implementations? Do we need to "integrate" it in NB to make you
> satisfied? Thousands of people would say it is a M$ strategy... There
> are people complaining about the fact we included VisualVM in JDK,
> saying we are pushing NetBeans platform, as VisualVM uses it...). It
> also does not mean that you don't need to download some tools that
> integrate with NB. Word "integrated" is more about providing interface
> for attaching additional functionality.
>
> Read more for example here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_integration: "In information
> technology, systems integration is the process of linking together
> different computing systems and software applications physically or
> functionally".
>
> Now on a personal note: may I ask you if you could try to answer your
> questions/remarks/comments before you make a post here? Make an
> opposition to your own ideas first. Try to realize if your posts here
> are constructive, if they can bring something new, something else then
> just an empty but extremely loud discussion about various points of
> view (on simple things, IMO). Provide some possible solutions (I would
> emhasize the word "possible" here...).
>
> (And if I can say something purely for myself - use a bit different
> and less "roaring" rhetorics... I mean: "It would be nice if you
> provided the interface for full instalation of Hg and if you provided
> tighter integration of Hg in general - I know it will be hard due to
> the platform specific issues - but it would make working with NB
> sources easier, for example" instead of "If you can't install the
> whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT INTEGRATED!")
>
> Now, if you want to download NB sources, read here first:
> http://wiki.netbeans.org/HgHowTos, but I would suggest you to use
> Ubuntu linux, it is the easiest (takes some 2 hours...) - read the
> script, I think it is very, very simple:
>
> #get everything that is needed
> sudo apt-get install ant ant-optional sun-java5-jdk mercurial
> mkdir ~/nbSrc
> cd ~/nbSrc
> #get nb sources, 1hour+
> hg -v clone http://hg.netbeans.org/main
> cd ~/nbSrc/main
> #introduce variables
> sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >
> ~/.nbbuild.properties
> sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
> sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
> #following three lines are of category "Just-In-Case"
> sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >
> ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
> sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>
> ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
> sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>
> ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
> #more memory is needed for the build
> export ANT_OPTS="-Xmx384m"
> #build 40min+
> ant -f build.xml
> #run IDE
> ant tryme
>
> With regards,
>
> Petr Dvorak
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...>
>> To: nbusers@...
>> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
>> Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>>
>> I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
>> to download all the sources and try building this beast.
>> So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
>> that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
>> I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
>> doesn't work at all...
>>
>> Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
>> requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
>> Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
>> could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.
>>
>>
>> Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
>> were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
>> developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
>> As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
>> this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
>> did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
>> long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
>> and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
>> developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.
>>
>> But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
>> 'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
>> So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
>> remind you of something.
>>
>> You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
>> additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
>> Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
>> because of......" save it please.
>> You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
>> point?
>> You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
>> installed....
>>
>> If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
>> ARE NOT INTEGRATED!
>>
>> Thanks for listening,
>> Kurt
>

[Thomas Wolf-4]

Kurt,
When exactly was the "birth" of IDEs?  I've been doing s/w development since ~1980 and don't remember an explicit birth date.  I've used many IDEs since they became widely available on the OS I used at work (~1989 if you mean "graphical" IDEs; ~1985 if you include emacs, probably the first widely used "IDE"), but I do not pretend to know the exact intent of IDEs, other than the obvious and general - to make developers' lives easier by integrating more and more of their daily work into a single environment.  The initial IDEs I worked with simply combined editing & compiling (and later debugging) into a single environment.  As time passed, additional facilities were added (GUI builders, source control, etc.)

I think IDEs have been very successful in achieving this goal.  I don't think we're losing anything in that regard.

"I am a senior developer and I've earned the right..." - to complain and whine without actually doing anything  yourself to make things better.  I did a quick check in NB's issuezilla and I don't see a single bug report by 'olsen'.  So if you never filed a bug or feature request and (by your own description of a failed attempt at building NB) have never actually contributed any code to NB, how have you earned any rights at all?

I agree with Glenn's assessment of your comments - they're pretty arrogant and self-centered.  I will even add pompous.

I've had my say too.  Well, that felt good!
Tom


Kurt Olsen wrote:

Understood Petr....

Regarding IDE's ... I was there for the birth of them...I know what the intent of an IDE originally was...And we're losing that....
That's not a thing that I'm willing to give up on ok?
Nor am I willing to accept the quality level currently displayed in Netbeans....
Seriously, If you guys worked for me I'd shut this thing down until the developers had learned to look at what they're doing with different eyes....
You may not like hearing that, but like it or not I am a senior developer and I've earned the right to be this critical...
Make me happy, read between the lines, I hate pointing out the most serious and idiotic behavior...THAT'S THE POINT
Why do these bugs get into production at ALL?
I'll be quite happy, if every netbeans coder wonders what I'd have to say about their latest code....And tries NOT to attract my attention!

I've had my say(s), I will go silent on the complaints, will however toss in help when I think I can answer someone's questions...

Thanks for listening,
FIX THE BUGS!
Kurt






Petr Dvorak wrote:

Kurt, where to start... First I will say I will write only one post to this thread, this one. I don't want to spend my young years by discussion on this subject...

In context of NB, "integrated" means that you can use many tools required for SW development in only one application. In other words - one running application provides various functionality (versioning, mobility/web/... development, SVG design, ...) by means of various plugins (I would emphasize here that NB is both IDE and platform).

But it does not neccessarily mean that all the functionality of those various tools needs to be directly included in the IDE (Do we really need to write our own versioning system or implement full CVS/SVN/Hg again inspite of existence of original and well working implementations? Do we need to "integrate" it in NB to make you satisfied? Thousands of people would say it is a M$ strategy... There are people complaining about the fact we included VisualVM in JDK, saying we are pushing NetBeans platform, as VisualVM uses it...). It also does not mean that you don't need to download some tools that integrate with NB. Word "integrated" is more about providing interface for attaching additional functionality.

Read more for example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_integration: "In information technology, systems integration is the process of linking together different computing systems and software applications physically or functionally".

Now on a personal note: may I ask you if you could try to answer your questions/remarks/comments before you make a post here? Make an opposition to your own ideas first. Try to realize if your posts here are constructive, if they can bring something new, something else then just an empty but extremely loud discussion about various points of view (on simple things, IMO). Provide some possible solutions (I would emhasize the word "possible" here...).

(And if I can say something purely for myself - use a bit different and less "roaring" rhetorics... I mean: "It would be nice if you provided the interface for full instalation of Hg and if you provided tighter integration of Hg in general - I know it will be hard due to the platform specific issues - but it would make working with NB sources easier, for example" instead of "If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT INTEGRATED!")

Now, if you want to download NB sources, read here first: http://wiki.netbeans.org/HgHowTos, but I would suggest you to use Ubuntu linux, it is the easiest (takes some 2 hours...) - read the script, I think it is very, very simple:

#get everything that is needed
sudo apt-get install ant ant-optional sun-java5-jdk mercurial
mkdir ~/nbSrc
cd ~/nbSrc
#get nb sources, 1hour+
hg -v clone http://hg.netbeans.org/main
cd ~/nbSrc/main
#introduce variables
sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >  ~/.nbbuild.properties
sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
#following three lines are of category "Just-In-Case"
sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >  ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
#more memory is needed for the build
export ANT_OPTS="-Xmx384m"
#build 40min+
ant -f build.xml
#run IDE
ant tryme

With regards,

Petr Dvorak

----- Original Message ----
From: Kurt Olsen kolsen@...
To: nbusers@...
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Thanks for listening,
Kurt

[Kurt Olsen-3]

Hi Thomas,

I know folks, I know... There's truth there - But it was also an insight
into what I'm really thinking, but don't usually say.
You're right in that I've never filed a bug - I've been a pure user -
But then, all the 'bugs' that have really gotten under my skin are 'well
known' - usually.
At least I thought so....I stopped using Netbeans on a daily basis when
version 4 came out. I had a big application of my own that controls a
roland digital mixer. The thing had over 18,000 parameters divided by 24
channels...Lots of files, lots of gui. Version 4 didn't like the
project, So I ended up (to this day) still using 3.6 when I edit that
project. Then, I got a job where I had to use eclipse day-in-day
out....I found it a breath of fresh air, not really better, just
different, went thru the learning curve, and now I'm comfortable with
both ide's.....When I had time, I ported my project into a netbeans 5.5
- It worked, but I reverted back to 3.6 - it was dialed in and worked
better......time passes. I get new job, this one involves writing a
stand-along swing application.......So I surveyed Netbeans again,
investigated JSR 295/296, downloaded a copy and tried some things
out....It seemed to  work well enough, so I made the decision to base
our companies new software around the capabilities that Netbeans 6 is
offering. But after the code gained some weight - Netbeans blew out on
me. It's been driving like a car with a flat-front tire. And ya know -
what made me really angry was the marketing crap - and the fact that
testing of Netbeans 6 didn't reveal the problems I would have. My bad...

My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about because on
any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's just
draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all...Reference
trying to rename the JPanels I complained about. In terms of overall
useability I still don't want to 'come back' to using Netbeans.
So I decided to just open the floodgates and say what I sometimes think
out loud and in public, and hope, that the frustration level would
communicate itself, and bring about some change. I made a choice to do
that the way I did because the 'polite' tone that usually prevails in
the mailing list isn't working in my opinion.

When I stopped using Netbeans it was regarded as a heavyweight, and
worked better than Eclipse did, or, was at least easier to install and
worked quite well in my opinion. But then it began losing ground, and
Eclipse gained ground, and now, I honestly don't know how Netbeans can
catch-up. I really don't think it can I'm sorry to say....And I (is this
arrogance?) think I know why. And nobody's been listening, to me, or the
others that have been complaining about certain behaviors for
years....So I took the other tack, and just let ya know what I'm really
thinking...Hoping that a little exposure to 'pissed off' would
help...sometimes it does ya know.

I hope the explanation above sheds some light into my experience, and
why I made the decison to drop a polite tone.
User complaints can get things done, and sometimes it has to be done
with some force involved.
If anbody out there is really angry - sorry - and hey, If you find
yourself in Honolulu someday send me some email, let me take you out for
a beer-by-the-beach and apologize....

Take Care,
Kurt





Thomas Wolf wrote:

> Kurt,
> When exactly was the "birth" of IDEs?  I've been doing s/w development
> since ~1980 and don't remember an explicit birth date.  I've used many
> IDEs since they became widely available on the OS I used at work
> (~1989 if you mean "graphical" IDEs; ~1985 if you include emacs,
> probably the first widely used "IDE"), but I do not pretend to know
> the exact intent of IDEs, other than the obvious and general - to make
> developers' lives easier by integrating more and more of their daily
> work into a single environment.  The initial IDEs I worked with simply
> combined editing & compiling (and later debugging) into a single
> environment.  As time passed, additional facilities were added (GUI
> builders, source control, etc.)
>
> I think IDEs have been very successful in achieving this goal.  I
> don't think we're losing anything in that regard.
>
> "I am a senior developer and I've earned the right..." - to complain
> and whine without actually doing anything  yourself to make things
> better.  I did a quick check in NB's issuezilla and I don't see a
> single bug report by 'olsen'.  So if you never filed a bug or feature
> request and (by your own description of a failed attempt at building
> NB) have never actually contributed any code to NB, how have you
> earned any rights at all?
>
> I agree with Glenn's assessment of your comments - they're pretty
> arrogant and self-centered.  I will even add pompous.
>
> I've had my say too.  Well, that felt good!
> Tom
>
>
> Kurt Olsen wrote:
>> Understood Petr....
>>
>> Regarding IDE's ... I was there for the birth of them...I know what
>> the intent of an IDE originally was...And we're losing that....
>> That's not a thing that I'm willing to give up on ok?
>> Nor am I willing to accept the quality level currently displayed in
>> Netbeans....
>> Seriously, If you guys worked for me I'd shut this thing down until
>> the developers had learned to look at what they're doing with
>> different eyes....
>> You may not like hearing that, but like it or not I am a senior
>> developer and I've earned the right to be this critical...
>> Make me happy, read between the lines, I hate pointing out the most
>> serious and idiotic behavior...THAT'S THE POINT
>> Why do these bugs get into production at ALL?
>> I'll be quite happy, if every netbeans coder wonders what I'd have to
>> say about their latest code....And tries NOT to attract my attention!
>>
>> I've had my say(s), I will go silent on the complaints, will however
>> toss in help when I think I can answer someone's questions...
>>
>> Thanks for listening,
>> FIX THE BUGS!
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Petr Dvorak wrote:
>>> Kurt, where to start... First I will say I will write only one post
>>> to this thread, this one. I don't want to spend my young years by
>>> discussion on this subject...
>>>
>>> In context of NB, "integrated" means that you can use many tools
>>> required for SW development in only one application. In other words
>>> - one running application provides various functionality
>>> (versioning, mobility/web/... development, SVG design, ...) by means
>>> of various plugins (I would emphasize here that NB is both IDE and
>>> platform).
>>>
>>> But it does not neccessarily mean that all the functionality of
>>> those various tools needs to be directly included in the IDE (Do we
>>> really need to write our own versioning system or implement full
>>> CVS/SVN/Hg again inspite of existence of original and well working
>>> implementations? Do we need to "integrate" it in NB to make you
>>> satisfied? Thousands of people would say it is a M$ strategy...
>>> There are people complaining about the fact we included VisualVM in
>>> JDK, saying we are pushing NetBeans platform, as VisualVM uses
>>> it...). It also does not mean that you don't need to download some
>>> tools that integrate with NB. Word "integrated" is more about
>>> providing interface for attaching additional functionality.
>>>
>>> Read more for example here:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_integration: "In information
>>> technology, systems integration is the process of linking together
>>> different computing systems and software applications physically or
>>> functionally".
>>>
>>> Now on a personal note: may I ask you if you could try to answer
>>> your questions/remarks/comments before you make a post here? Make an
>>> opposition to your own ideas first. Try to realize if your posts
>>> here are constructive, if they can bring something new, something
>>> else then just an empty but extremely loud discussion about various
>>> points of view (on simple things, IMO). Provide some possible
>>> solutions (I would emhasize the word "possible" here...).
>>>
>>> (And if I can say something purely for myself - use a bit different
>>> and less "roaring" rhetorics... I mean: "It would be nice if you
>>> provided the interface for full instalation of Hg and if you
>>> provided tighter integration of Hg in general - I know it will be
>>> hard due to the platform specific issues - but it would make working
>>> with NB sources easier, for example" instead of "If you can't
>>> install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT
>>> INTEGRATED!")
>>>
>>> Now, if you want to download NB sources, read here first:
>>> http://wiki.netbeans.org/HgHowTos, but I would suggest you to use
>>> Ubuntu linux, it is the easiest (takes some 2 hours...) - read the
>>> script, I think it is very, very simple:
>>>
>>> #get everything that is needed
>>> sudo apt-get install ant ant-optional sun-java5-jdk mercurial
>>> mkdir ~/nbSrc
>>> cd ~/nbSrc
>>> #get nb sources, 1hour+
>>> hg -v clone http://hg.netbeans.org/main
>>> cd ~/nbSrc/main
>>> #introduce variables
>>> sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >  
>>> ~/.nbbuild.properties
>>> sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
>>> sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
>>> #following three lines are of category "Just-In-Case"
>>> sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >  
>>> ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
>>> sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  
>>> ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
>>> sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  
>>> ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
>>> #more memory is needed for the build
>>> export ANT_OPTS="-Xmx384m"
>>> #build 40min+
>>> ant -f build.xml
>>> #run IDE
>>> ant tryme
>>>
>>> With regards,
>>>
>>> Petr Dvorak
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...>
>>>> To: nbusers@...
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
>>>> Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated
>>>>
>>>> I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
>>>> to download all the sources and try building this beast.
>>>> So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember
>>>> reading
>>>> that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used
>>>> before.
>>>> I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
>>>> doesn't work at all...
>>>>
>>>> Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
>>>> requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
>>>> Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe
>>>> not, I
>>>> could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before
>>>> there
>>>> were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
>>>> developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed
>>>> themselves.
>>>> As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
>>>> this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
>>>> did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased
>>>> them
>>>> long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the
>>>> curtain,
>>>> and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
>>>> developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.
>>>>
>>>> But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
>>>> 'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
>>>> So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
>>>> remind you of something.
>>>>
>>>> You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
>>>> additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
>>>> Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
>>>> because of......" save it please.
>>>> You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are
>>>> not.....got
>>>> point?
>>>> You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
>>>> installed....
>>>>
>>>> If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
>>>> ARE NOT INTEGRATED!
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for listening,
>>>> Kurt
>>>
>>

[Thomas Wolf-4]

Hi Kurt,
I, too, found the move from 3.x to 4.x very frustrating.  3.x worked flawlessly for me.  It was fast.  The GUI builder worked better than most I've used before (e.g. Visigenix' Galaxy GUI builder, SunPro's, VisualCafe, Borland's, zApp).  Everything was good.  Then the NB team decided to re-architect the tool - presumably to be more expandable.  They switched it to use ant and made the whole thing a lot more "project" centric.  Initially, unless your project happened to conform to one of the project templates, you were pretty hosed....but things got better over time and I find that NB adapts pretty well to any project structure I've thrown at it over the years.  I also didn't perceive any performance problems when ant was introduced....until my current job where the project consists of 3800 java project files, 70+ third-party jar files, etc.  I bitched and moaned about how long the edit->compile->test cycle was taking.  But after filing an issue (as I always do) and cheerleading for others to contribute their votes, the problem was fixed.

That's really how I think things are supposed to work: when you find something you don't like, you find out if it's a known deficiency.  If not, you file a bug or enhancement request, and then you get other users to vote for them.  The NB team definitely seems to fix bugs with high vote count faster than those that don't have many....I have a few bug reports in that category as well - there are features I requested 4 years ago and they're still not fixed...Sometimes it doesn't work quite so well:  there was one I voted for in 2002 (anyone remember the global find/replace?) and it wasn't fixed until 2008 - despite being one of the bugs with the most votes over the years....but that's all par for the course: I don't contribute code to the NB project, nor do I pay any NB developers' salaries.  I'm glad for what I get (most of the time :-)

Not everyone has time to make NB better by coding themselves.  But general bitching about the product doesn't help anyone or anything - it just gets people upset - and then they ignore you (you must not have any kids; otherwise you'd know that :-)  Constructive feedback via filed issues is much better and, in the long run, much more effective (do you think any developer looks through the mailing lists for inspiration of what to do next?  Not!)  Many developers don't like filing issues because they think that the NB developers' bosses will think that the developers write lousy code - if those bosses think that way, they're pretty bad managers.  Issues are great or capturing users needs in a formal way (on my project, I currently have 200+ bugs assigned to me because the first thing I tell people when they have an idea for improvement or see a problem is "Thanks!  Please write a bug so I won't forget!")

If NB doesn't work for you, just let it go.  It doesn't make sense for you to get frustrated and then simply let out your frustration on the mailing list.  I've used NB since 1999(or so) and am still using it.  My colleague/friend sitting next to me has used NB for a similar stretch of time but moved to Eclipse because he could not stand how slowly his NB 5.5 was doing the edit-compile-debug cycle on our huge project.  He simply stopped using it, learned Eclipse, configured it to look similar to his NB setup, and never looked back (well, except when he's forced to use Matisse on some of our GUI screens).  If he had waited 2-3 weeks (while I whined on this mailing list and filed a bug), he would still be on NB now.  C'est la vie.

Tom

Kurt Olsen wrote:

Hi Thomas,

I know folks, I know... There's truth there - But it was also an insight into what I'm really thinking, but don't usually say.
You're right in that I've never filed a bug - I've been a pure user - But then, all the 'bugs' that have really gotten under my skin are 'well known' - usually.
At least I thought so....I stopped using Netbeans on a daily basis when version 4 came out. I had a big application of my own that controls a roland digital mixer. The thing had over 18,000 parameters divided by 24 channels...Lots of files, lots of gui. Version 4 didn't like the project, So I ended up (to this day) still using 3.6 when I edit that project. Then, I got a job where I had to use eclipse day-in-day out....I found it a breath of fresh air, not really better, just different, went thru the learning curve, and now I'm comfortable with both ide's.....When I had time, I ported my project into a netbeans 5.5 - It worked, but I reverted back to 3.6 - it was dialed in and worked better......time passes. I get new job, this one involves writing a stand-along swing application.......So I surveyed Netbeans again, investigated JSR 295/296, downloaded a copy and tried some things out....It seemed to  work well enough, so I made the decision to base our companies new software around the capabilities that Netbeans 6 is offering. But after the code gained some weight - Netbeans blew out on me. It's been driving like a car with a flat-front tire. And ya know - what made me really angry was the marketing crap - and the fact that testing of Netbeans 6 didn't reveal the problems I would have. My bad...

My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all...Reference trying to rename the JPanels I complained about. In terms of overall useability I still don't want to 'come back' to using Netbeans.
So I decided to just open the floodgates and say what I sometimes think out loud and in public, and hope, that the frustration level would communicate itself, and bring about some change. I made a choice to do that the way I did because the 'polite' tone that usually prevails in the mailing list isn't working in my opinion.

When I stopped using Netbeans it was regarded as a heavyweight, and worked better than Eclipse did, or, was at least easier to install and worked quite well in my opinion. But then it began losing ground, and Eclipse gained ground, and now, I honestly don't know how Netbeans can catch-up. I really don't think it can I'm sorry to say....And I (is this arrogance?) think I know why. And nobody's been listening, to me, or the others that have been complaining about certain behaviors for years....So I took the other tack, and just let ya know what I'm really thinking...Hoping that a little exposure to 'pissed off' would help...sometimes it does ya know.

I hope the explanation above sheds some light into my experience, and why I made the decison to drop a polite tone.
User complaints can get things done, and sometimes it has to be done with some force involved.
If anbody out there is really angry - sorry - and hey, If you find yourself in Honolulu someday send me some email, let me take you out for a beer-by-the-beach and apologize....

Take Care,
Kurt





Thomas Wolf wrote:

Kurt,
When exactly was the "birth" of IDEs?  I've been doing s/w development since ~1980 and don't remember an explicit birth date.  I've used many IDEs since they became widely available on the OS I used at work (~1989 if you mean "graphical" IDEs; ~1985 if you include emacs, probably the first widely used "IDE"), but I do not pretend to know the exact intent of IDEs, other than the obvious and general - to make developers' lives easier by integrating more and more of their daily work into a single environment.  The initial IDEs I worked with simply combined editing & compiling (and later debugging) into a single environment.  As time passed, additional facilities were added (GUI builders, source control, etc.)

I think IDEs have been very successful in achieving this goal.  I don't think we're losing anything in that regard.

"I am a senior developer and I've earned the right..." - to complain and whine without actually doing anything  yourself to make things better.  I did a quick check in NB's issuezilla and I don't see a single bug report by 'olsen'.  So if you never filed a bug or feature request and (by your own description of a failed attempt at building NB) have never actually contributed any code to NB, how have you earned any rights at all?

I agree with Glenn's assessment of your comments - they're pretty arrogant and self-centered.  I will even add pompous.

I've had my say too.  Well, that felt good!
Tom


Kurt Olsen wrote:

Understood Petr....

Regarding IDE's ... I was there for the birth of them...I know what the intent of an IDE originally was...And we're losing that....
That's not a thing that I'm willing to give up on ok?
Nor am I willing to accept the quality level currently displayed in Netbeans....
Seriously, If you guys worked for me I'd shut this thing down until the developers had learned to look at what they're doing with different eyes....
You may not like hearing that, but like it or not I am a senior developer and I've earned the right to be this critical...
Make me happy, read between the lines, I hate pointing out the most serious and idiotic behavior...THAT'S THE POINT
Why do these bugs get into production at ALL?
I'll be quite happy, if every netbeans coder wonders what I'd have to say about their latest code....And tries NOT to attract my attention!

I've had my say(s), I will go silent on the complaints, will however toss in help when I think I can answer someone's questions...

Thanks for listening,
FIX THE BUGS!
Kurt






Petr Dvorak wrote:

Kurt, where to start... First I will say I will write only one post to this thread, this one. I don't want to spend my young years by discussion on this subject...

In context of NB, "integrated" means that you can use many tools required for SW development in only one application. In other words - one running application provides various functionality (versioning, mobility/web/... development, SVG design, ...) by means of various plugins (I would emphasize here that NB is both IDE and platform).

But it does not neccessarily mean that all the functionality of those various tools needs to be directly included in the IDE (Do we really need to write our own versioning system or implement full CVS/SVN/Hg again inspite of existence of original and well working implementations? Do we need to "integrate" it in NB to make you satisfied? Thousands of people would say it is a M$ strategy... There are people complaining about the fact we included VisualVM in JDK, saying we are pushing NetBeans platform, as VisualVM uses it...). It also does not mean that you don't need to download some tools that integrate with NB. Word "integrated" is more about providing interface for attaching additional functionality.

Read more for example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_integration: "In information technology, systems integration is the process of linking together different computing systems and software applications physically or functionally".

Now on a personal note: may I ask you if you could try to answer your questions/remarks/comments before you make a post here? Make an opposition to your own ideas first. Try to realize if your posts here are constructive, if they can bring something new, something else then just an empty but extremely loud discussion about various points of view (on simple things, IMO). Provide some possible solutions (I would emhasize the word "possible" here...).

(And if I can say something purely for myself - use a bit different and less "roaring" rhetorics... I mean: "It would be nice if you provided the interface for full instalation of Hg and if you provided tighter integration of Hg in general - I know it will be hard due to the platform specific issues - but it would make working with NB sources easier, for example" instead of "If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT INTEGRATED!")

Now, if you want to download NB sources, read here first: http://wiki.netbeans.org/HgHowTos, but I would suggest you to use Ubuntu linux, it is the easiest (takes some 2 hours...) - read the script, I think it is very, very simple:

#get everything that is needed
sudo apt-get install ant ant-optional sun-java5-jdk mercurial
mkdir ~/nbSrc
cd ~/nbSrc
#get nb sources, 1hour+
hg -v clone http://hg.netbeans.org/main
cd ~/nbSrc/main
#introduce variables
sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >  ~/.nbbuild.properties
sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
#following three lines are of category "Just-In-Case"
sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" >  ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  ~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
#more memory is needed for the build
export ANT_OPTS="-Xmx384m"
#build 40min+
ant -f build.xml
#run IDE
ant tryme

With regards,

Petr Dvorak

----- Original Message ----
From: Kurt Olsen kolsen@...
To: nbusers@...
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Thanks for listening,
Kurt

[Don Millhofer]

A friend, another small development shop, told me not to bet the business on NetBeans.  At the time I was using NetBeans to develop desktop apps with success.  But now trying to roll out web solutions in a timely manner I understand all to well what he meant.  We can work around issues in Java, there are a lot of different approaches but when the IDE in misbehaving it can drive the whole team nuts and time lines fall a part.  Its too late for us we are committed to NetBeans.

Don

At 01:17 PM 7/16/2008, you wrote:

Hi Thomas,

I know folks, I know... There's truth there - But it was also an insight into what I'm really thinking, but don't usually say.
You're right in that I've never filed a bug - I've been a pure user - But then, all the 'bugs' that have really gotten under my skin are 'well known' - usually.
At least I thought so....I stopped using Netbeans on a daily basis when version 4 came out. I had a big application of my own that controls a roland digital mixer. The thing had over 18,000 parameters divided by 24 channels...Lots of files, lots of gui. Version 4 didn't like the project, So I ended up (to this day) still using 3.6 when I edit that project. Then, I got a job where I had to use eclipse day-in-day out....I found it a breath of fresh air, not really better, just different, went thru the learning curve, and now I'm comfortable with both ide's.....When I had time, I ported my project into a netbeans 5.5 - It worked, but I reverted back to 3.6 - it was dialed in and worked better......time passes. I get new job, this one involves writing a stand-along swing application.......So I surveyed Netbeans again, investigated JSR 295/296, downloaded a copy and tried some things out....It seemed to  work well enough, so I made the decision to base our companies new software around the capabilities that Netbeans 6 is offering. But after the code gained some weight - Netbeans blew out on me. It's been driving like a car with a flat-front tire. And ya know - what made me really angry was the marketing crap - and the fact that testing of Netbeans 6 didn't reveal the problems I would have. My bad...

My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all...Reference trying to rename the JPanels I complained about. In terms of overall useability I still don't want to 'come back' to using Netbeans.
So I decided to just open the floodgates and say what I sometimes think out loud and in public, and hope, that the frustration level would communicate itself, and bring about some change. I made a choice to do that the way I did because the 'polite' tone that usually prevails in the mailing list isn't working in my opinion.

When I stopped using Netbeans it was regarded as a heavyweight, and worked better than Eclipse did, or, was at least easier to install and worked quite well in my opinion. But then it began losing ground, and Eclipse gained ground, and now, I honestly don't know how Netbeans can catch-up. I really don't think it can I'm sorry to say....And I (is this arrogance?) think I know why. And nobody's been listening, to me, or the others that have been complaining about certain behaviors for years....So I took the other tack, and just let ya know what I'm really thinking...Hoping that a little exposure to 'pissed off' would help...sometimes it does ya know.

I hope the explanation above sheds some light into my experience, and why I made the decison to drop a polite tone.
User complaints can get things done, and sometimes it has to be done with some force involved.
If anbody out there is really angry - sorry - and hey, If you find yourself in Honolulu someday send me some email, let me take you out for a beer-by-the-beach and apologize....

Take Care,
Kurt





Thomas Wolf wrote:

Kurt,
When exactly was the "birth" of IDEs?  I've been doing s/w development since ~1980 and don't remember an explicit birth date.  I've used many IDEs since they became widely available on the OS I used at work (~1989 if you mean "graphical" IDEs; ~1985 if you include emacs, probably the first widely used "IDE"), but I do not pretend to know the exact intent of IDEs, other than the obvious and general - to make developers' lives easier by integrating more and more of their daily work into a single environment.  The initial IDEs I worked with simply combined editing & compiling (and later debugging) into a single environment.  As time passed, additional facilities were added (GUI builders, source control, etc.)

I think IDEs have been very successful in achieving this goal.  I don't think we're losing anything in that regard.

"I am a senior developer and I've earned the right..." - to complain and whine without actually doing anything  yourself to make things better.  I did a quick check in NB's issuezilla and I don't see a single bug report by 'olsen'.  So if you never filed a bug or feature request and (by your own description of a failed attempt at building NB) have never actually contributed any code to NB, how have you earned any rights at all?

I agree with Glenn's assessment of your comments - they're pretty arrogant and self-centered.  I will even add pompous.

I've had my say too.  Well, that felt good!
Tom


Kurt Olsen wrote:

Understood Petr....

Regarding IDE's ... I was there for the birth of them...I know what the intent of an IDE originally was...And we're losing that....
That's not a thing that I'm willing to give up on ok?
Nor am I willing to accept the quality level currently displayed in Netbeans....
Seriously, If you guys worked for me I'd shut this thing down until the developers had learned to look at what they're doing with different eyes....
You may not like hearing that, but like it or not I am a senior developer and I've earned the right to be this critical...
Make me happy, read between the lines, I hate pointing out the most serious and idiotic behavior...THAT'S THE POINT
Why do these bugs get into production at ALL?
I'll be quite happy, if every netbeans coder wonders what I'd have to say about their latest code....And tries NOT to attract my attention!

I've had my say(s), I will go silent on the complaints, will however toss in help when I think I can answer someone's questions...

Thanks for listening,
FIX THE BUGS!
Kurt






Petr Dvorak wrote:

Kurt, where to start... First I will say I will write only one post to this thread, this one. I don't want to spend my young years by discussion on this subject...

In context of NB, "integrated" means that you can use many tools required for SW development in only one application. In other words - one running application provides various functionality (versioning, mobility/web/... development, SVG design, ...) by means of various plugins (I would emphasize here that NB is both IDE and platform).

But it does not neccessarily mean that all the functionality of those various tools needs to be directly included in the IDE (Do we really need to write our own versioning system or implement full CVS/SVN/Hg again inspite of existence of original and well working implementations? Do we need to "integrate" it in NB to make you satisfied? Thousands of people would say it is a M$ strategy... There are people complaining about the fact we included VisualVM in JDK, saying we are pushing NetBeans platform, as VisualVM uses it...). It also does not mean that you don't need to download some tools that integrate with NB. Word "integrated" is more about providing interface for attaching additional functionality.

Read more for example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_integration: "In information technology, systems integration is the process of linking together different computing systems and software applications physically or functionally".

Now on a personal note: may I ask you if you could try to answer your questions/remarks/comments before you make a post here? Make an opposition to your own ideas first. Try to realize if your posts here are constructive, if they can bring something new, something else then just an empty but extremely loud discussion about various points of view (on simple things, IMO). Provide some possible solutions (I would emhasize the word "possible" here...).

(And if I can say something purely for myself - use a bit different and less "roaring" rhetorics... I mean: "It would be nice if you provided the interface for full instalation of Hg and if you provided tighter integration of Hg in general - I know it will be hard due to the platform specific issues - but it would make working with NB sources easier, for example" instead of "If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT INTEGRATED!")

Now, if you want to download NB sources, read here first: http://wiki.netbeans.org/HgHowTos, but I would suggest you to use Ubuntu linux, it is the easiest (takes some 2 hours...) - read the script, I think it is very, very simple:

#get everything that is needed
sudo apt-get install ant ant-optional sun-java5-jdk mercurial
mkdir ~/nbSrc
cd ~/nbSrc
#get nb sources, 1hour+
hg -v clone http://hg.netbeans.org/main
cd ~/nbSrc/main
#introduce variables
sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" > 
~/.nbbuild.properties
sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
#following three lines are of category "Just-In-Case"
sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" > 
~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >> 
~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >> 
~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
#more memory is needed for the build
export ANT_OPTS="-Xmx384m"
#build 40min+
ant -f build.xml
#run IDE
ant tryme

With regards,

Petr Dvorak

----- Original Message ----
From: Kurt Olsen <kolsen@...>
To: nbusers@...
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Thanks for listening,
Kurt

[swing_developer]

Kurt said:
My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.

Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the price is totally OK, the software keeps on working you only upgrade if you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins for it easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic. Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe problem is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in any way you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it were, we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write plugins against is, well, inscrutable.

But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.

[Jess Holle]

I actually see a lot that is nice about NetBeans, which makes that which is not nice so galling, especially when it gets worse over time:

• Code navigation/completion/open-type
• The background scanning/compiling/indexing to produce this
• Eats the CPU leaving little for foreground usage.
• Cannot be controlled in any reasonable way by the user (e.g. "index this huge directory to an index on disk when I tell you to only, otherwise just assume it is good enough")
• All of the critical code navigation/completion, etc, features fall on their face if the IDE decides to scan/compile/index to update the data behind this.
• This seems to occur even when unrelated stuff is being scanned/updated/indexed.
• Even if related stuff is being scanned/updated/indexed, it should be able to keep using the existing data up until the point that the new data is available and quickly and seamlessly snapped into place.  I should never be forced to wait for many minutes for perfectly up-to-date code completion data when what I already had was perfectly good for what I'm looking up!
• The code navigation/completion/open-type features seem to just get slower (and less reliable) with each new release as of late.
• Most of these should be nearly instantaneous.  I wrote a web app for the same set of classes that does find-usages, find classes, etc, that is nearly instantaneous, runs on the same hardware (a laptop) and has a fully normalized relational database.  Surely a specialized in-memory index within the same JVM ought to be faster if anything.
• Version control
• The notion that one should have to install a separate native/non-Java version control client is really at odds with Java development expectations.
• Sure there are cases where there is really no choice (ClearCase) or where the version control system is not enough of a target to justify more effort.  Sun is saying Mercurial is the way for all of their projects, though -- and then sticking with an external Python client.  That's just weird.  The Eclipse community is working on a pure-Java Git client, which tells me Sun should either join with them, dump Mercurial and move to Git, develop a pure Java client for Mercurial and embed it in NetBeans, or at least produce a Git plug-in for NetBeans that uses the pure-Java Git client from Eclipse.  Selecting a version control system for Java today that one has to separately install and configure based on separate, non-Java implementation technologies and then not rectifying this client gap makes no sense.
• AspectJ
• Sun's chased everything else from Ruby to Python to JavaScript, but where's the first-class, end-to-end AspectJ support in NetBeans?
  

Of all of these the first is far and away my current issue with NetBeans.  Code navigation and completion is *the* most critical foundational capability for an IDE today -- bar none.  The failings here get me really riled up at times.  It is also something which can clearly be rectified if the NetBeans team puts some real priority on addressing the issues noted above -- in particular for large codebases like ours.

--
Jess Holle

Don Millhofer wrote:

A friend, another small development shop, told me not to bet the business on NetBeans.  At the time I was using NetBeans to develop desktop apps with success.  But now trying to roll out web solutions in a timely manner I understand all to well what he meant.  We can work around issues in Java, there are a lot of different approaches but when the IDE in misbehaving it can drive the whole team nuts and time lines fall a part.  Its too late for us we are committed to NetBeans.

Don

At 01:17 PM 7/16/2008, you wrote:

Hi Thomas,

I know folks, I know... There's truth there - But it was also an insight into what I'm really thinking, but don't usually say.
You're right in that I've never filed a bug - I've been a pure user - But then, all the 'bugs' that have really gotten under my skin are 'well known' - usually.
At least I thought so....I stopped using Netbeans on a daily basis when version 4 came out. I had a big application of my own that controls a roland digital mixer. The thing had over 18,000 parameters divided by 24 channels...Lots of files, lots of gui. Version 4 didn't like the project, So I ended up (to this day) still using 3.6 when I edit that project. Then, I got a job where I had to use eclipse day-in-day out....I found it a breath of fresh air, not really better, just different, went thru the learning curve, and now I'm comfortable with both ide's.....When I had time, I ported my project into a netbeans 5.5 - It worked, but I reverted back to 3.6 - it was dialed in and worked better......time passes. I get new job, this one involves writing a stand-along swing application.......So I surveyed Netbeans again, investigated JSR 295/296, downloaded a copy and tried some things out....It seemed to  work well enough, so I made the decision to base our companies new software around the capabilities that Netbeans 6 is offering. But after the code gained some weight - Netbeans blew out on me. It's been driving like a car with a flat-front tire. And ya know - what made me really angry was the marketing crap - and the fact that testing of Netbeans 6 didn't reveal the problems I would have. My bad...

My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all...Reference trying to rename the JPanels I complained about. In terms of overall useability I still don't want to 'come back' to using Netbeans.
So I decided to just open the floodgates and say what I sometimes think out loud and in public, and hope, that the frustration level would communicate itself, and bring about some change. I made a choice to do that the way I did because the 'polite' tone that usually prevails in the mailing list isn't working in my opinion.

When I stopped using Netbeans it was regarded as a heavyweight, and worked better than Eclipse did, or, was at least easier to install and worked quite well in my opinion. But then it began losing ground, and Eclipse gained ground, and now, I honestly don't know how Netbeans can catch-up. I really don't think it can I'm sorry to say....And I (is this arrogance?) think I know why. And nobody's been listening, to me, or the others that have been complaining about certain behaviors for years....So I took the other tack, and just let ya know what I'm really thinking...Hoping that a little exposure to 'pissed off' would help...sometimes it does ya know.

I hope the explanation above sheds some light into my experience, and why I made the decison to drop a polite tone.
User complaints can get things done, and sometimes it has to be done with some force involved.
If anbody out there is really angry - sorry - and hey, If you find yourself in Honolulu someday send me some email, let me take you out for a beer-by-the-beach and apologize....

Take Care,
Kurt





Thomas Wolf wrote:

Kurt,
When exactly was the "birth" of IDEs?  I've been doing s/w development since ~1980 and don't remember an explicit birth date.  I've used many IDEs since they became widely available on the OS I used at work (~1989 if you mean "graphical" IDEs; ~1985 if you include emacs, probably the first widely used "IDE"), but I do not pretend to know the exact intent of IDEs, other than the obvious and general - to make developers' lives easier by integrating more and more of their daily work into a single environment.  The initial IDEs I worked with simply combined editing & compiling (and later debugging) into a single environment.  As time passed, additional facilities were added (GUI builders, source control, etc.)

I think IDEs have been very successful in achieving this goal.  I don't think we're losing anything in that regard.

"I am a senior developer and I've earned the right..." - to complain and whine without actually doing anything  yourself to make things better.  I did a quick check in NB's issuezilla and I don't see a single bug report by 'olsen'.  So if you never filed a bug or feature request and (by your own description of a failed attempt at building NB) have never actually contributed any code to NB, how have you earned any rights at all?

I agree with Glenn's assessment of your comments - they're pretty arrogant and self-centered.  I will even add pompous.

I've had my say too.  Well, that felt good!
Tom


Kurt Olsen wrote:

Understood Petr....

Regarding IDE's ... I was there for the birth of them...I know what the intent of an IDE originally was...And we're losing that....
That's not a thing that I'm willing to give up on ok?
Nor am I willing to accept the quality level currently displayed in Netbeans....
Seriously, If you guys worked for me I'd shut this thing down until the developers had learned to look at what they're doing with different eyes....
You may not like hearing that, but like it or not I am a senior developer and I've earned the right to be this critical...
Make me happy, read between the lines, I hate pointing out the most serious and idiotic behavior...THAT'S THE POINT
Why do these bugs get into production at ALL?
I'll be quite happy, if every netbeans coder wonders what I'd have to say about their latest code....And tries NOT to attract my attention!

I've had my say(s), I will go silent on the complaints, will however toss in help when I think I can answer someone's questions...

Thanks for listening,
FIX THE BUGS!
Kurt






Petr Dvorak wrote:

Kurt, where to start... First I will say I will write only one post to this thread, this one. I don't want to spend my young years by discussion on this subject...

In context of NB, "integrated" means that you can use many tools required for SW development in only one application. In other words - one running application provides various functionality (versioning, mobility/web/... development, SVG design, ...) by means of various plugins (I would emphasize here that NB is both IDE and platform).

But it does not neccessarily mean that all the functionality of those various tools needs to be directly included in the IDE (Do we really need to write our own versioning system or implement full CVS/SVN/Hg again inspite of existence of original and well working implementations? Do we need to "integrate" it in NB to make you satisfied? Thousands of people would say it is a M$ strategy... There are people complaining about the fact we included VisualVM in JDK, saying we are pushing NetBeans platform, as VisualVM uses it...). It also does not mean that you don't need to download some tools that integrate with NB. Word "integrated" is more about providing interface for attaching additional functionality.

Read more for example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_integration: "In information technology, systems integration is the process of linking together different computing systems and software applications physically or functionally".

Now on a personal note: may I ask you if you could try to answer your questions/remarks/comments before you make a post here? Make an opposition to your own ideas first. Try to realize if your posts here are constructive, if they can bring something new, something else then just an empty but extremely loud discussion about various points of view (on simple things, IMO). Provide some possible solutions (I would emhasize the word "possible" here...).

(And if I can say something purely for myself - use a bit different and less "roaring" rhetorics... I mean: "It would be nice if you provided the interface for full instalation of Hg and if you provided tighter integration of Hg in general - I know it will be hard due to the platform specific issues - but it would make working with NB sources easier, for example" instead of "If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU ARE NOT INTEGRATED!")

Now, if you want to download NB sources, read here first: http://wiki.netbeans.org/HgHowTos, but I would suggest you to use Ubuntu linux, it is the easiest (takes some 2 hours...) - read the script, I think it is very, very simple:

#get everything that is needed
sudo apt-get install ant ant-optional sun-java5-jdk mercurial
mkdir ~/nbSrc
cd ~/nbSrc
#get nb sources, 1hour+
hg -v clone http://hg.netbeans.org/main
cd ~/nbSrc/main
#introduce variables
sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" > 
~/.nbbuild.properties
sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >>  ~/.nbbuild.properties
#following three lines are of category "Just-In-Case"
sudo echo "nbjdk.home=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.15" > 
~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
sudo echo "build.compiler=extJavac" >> 
~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
sudo echo "javac.compilerargs=-J-Xmx512m" >> 
~/nbSrc/main/nbbuild/user.build.properties
#more memory is needed for the build
export ANT_OPTS="-Xmx384m"
#build 40min+
ant -f build.xml
#run IDE
ant tryme

With regards,

Petr Dvorak

----- Original Message ----
From: Kurt Olsen kolsen@...
To: nbusers@...
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:12:11 PM
Subject: [nbusers] The meaning of Integrated

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Thanks for listening,
Kurt

[Michael Mellinger-3]

It's an IDE.  How are you locked in?  The code can be moved to
Eclipse, IntelliJ or Emacs in a short period of time.

-Mike
http://thespanishsite.com



On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Don Millhofer <dmillhofer@...> wrote:

> A friend, another small development shop, told me not to bet the business on
> NetBeans.  At the time I was using NetBeans to develop desktop apps with
> success.  But now trying to roll out web solutions in a timely manner I
> understand all to well what he meant.  We can work around issues in Java,
> there are a lot of different approaches but when the IDE in misbehaving it
> can drive the whole team nuts and time lines fall a part.  Its too late for
> us we are committed to NetBeans.
>
> Don
>

[Jess Holle]

software visualization wrote:

> Kurt said:
> My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about because
> on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's just
> draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.
>
> Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as they say,
> a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with pleasure"...) If
> you're making money programming, the price is totally OK, the software
> keeps on working you only upgrade if you want to (I always want to).
> You can't write plugins for it easily, but the out of the box
> functionality is fantastic. Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from
> IntelliJ. THe problem is, no real chance to write a plugin or change
> it in any way you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it
> were, we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
> plugins against is, well, inscrutable.
>
> But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.

Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest version got
much, much slower and he's no longer very happy with it.

--
Jess Holle

[Rob Ross-3]

I agree with this. I use IDEA and I truly love it. I've never been as  
productive with any other IDE, and I've used quite a few over the  
years (MS Visual J++, Symantec Visual Cafe, JBuilder, CodeWarrior,  
Eclipse, NetBeans, Xcode).

Also, it says quite a lot about this software that people will  
actually pay money for it, even in the presence of "free"  
alternatives. Sometimes the free alternative is actually more  
expensive in the long run.

To keep this on-topic, NetBeans would be wiser to chase the feature  
set in IDEA and not Eclipse. I've tried Eclipse and found it to be  
slow, bloated, and ugly. But that's obviously just my personal  
experience and your experience may be different.


Rob Ross, Lead Software Engineer
E! Networks

---------------------------------------------------
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his  
heart he dreams himself your master." -- Commissioner Pravin Lal



On Jul 16, 2008, at 3:16 PM, software visualization wrote:

> Kurt said:
> My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about  
> because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's  
> just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.
>
> Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as they  
> say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with pleasure"...)  
> If you're making money programming, the price is totally OK, the  
> software keeps on working you only upgrade if you want to (I always  
> want to). You can't write plugins for it easily, but the out of the  
> box functionality is fantastic. Both NB and Eclipse are miles away  
> from IntelliJ. THe problem is, no real chance to write a plugin or  
> change it in any way you find useful because it's not OS (and I  
> *think* if it were, we might not like what we see...) and the  
> OpenAPI to write plugins against is, well, inscrutable.
>
> But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.
>