No EOL control in NB 6.1?

[swing_developer]

yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I totally agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a can't live without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the plugins b/c I don't need them, and that makes it even faster still. Shoot that guy my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.

In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we == people who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing the power of open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing here is virtually every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .

Just today's bounty of bugs-

1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the ALTER TABLE statement!

2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in the services window (still with H2)

3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)

4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as in 3 above

5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of course all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying to insert without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ). This failure is 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB creates during the wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I could use the wizard on to create a desktop DB app that would do whatever the wizard would create it to do- answer... NOPE!

Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views, overlapping side windows, views that switch through one-off non-conventional (mouse over the button to trigger the button !!!) gestures.... I could go on forever... but still...

it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@...> wrote:

software visualization wrote:

Kurt said:
My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.

Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the price is totally OK, the software keeps on working you only upgrade if you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins for it easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic. Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe problem is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in any way you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it were, we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write plugins against is, well, inscrutable.

But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.

Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy with it.

--
Jess Holle

[swing_developer]

Bug # whatever:

Inspector view will let me highlight an item, change it's name, but this doesn't trigger off any refactoring... it lets me complete the edit then merrily changes it back... I *think* a saw the briefest pop-up that read "sucker" but it may have been my imagination.....

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:36 PM, software visualization <softwarevisualization@...> wrote:

yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I totally agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a can't live without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the plugins b/c I don't need them, and that makes it even faster still. Shoot that guy my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.

In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we == people who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing the power of open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing here is virtually every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .

Just today's bounty of bugs-

1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the ALTER TABLE statement!

2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in the services window (still with H2)

3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)

4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as in 3 above

5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of course all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying to insert without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ). This failure is 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB creates during the wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I could use the wizard on to create a desktop DB app that would do whatever the wizard would create it to do- answer... NOPE!

Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views, overlapping side windows, views that switch through one-off non-conventional (mouse over the button to trigger the button !!!) gestures.... I could go on forever... but still...

it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@...> wrote:

software visualization wrote:

Kurt said:
My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.

Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the price is totally OK, the software keeps on working you only upgrade if you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins for it easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic. Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe problem is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in any way you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it were, we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write plugins against is, well, inscrutable.

But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.

Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy with it.

--
Jess Holle

[Geertjan Wielenga]

http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html

You need to create issues for these, with step by step instructions that
someone will then be able to follow to reproduce your issues.

Gj

software visualization wrote:

> yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I totally agree
> faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a can't live without
> once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the plugins b/c I don't need
> them, and that makes it even faster still. Shoot that guy my email and
> I'll chat IntelliJ with him.
>
> In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we == people
> who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing the power of open
> source on an IDE. The discouraging thing here is virtually every
> single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .
>
> Just today's bounty of bugs-
>
> 1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the ALTER
> TABLE statement!
>
> 2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in the
> services window (still with H2)
>
> 3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence
> when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database
> application (connected this time to javaDB)
>
> 4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as in 3 above
>
> 5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it doesn't
> include the index column when it create my app and of course all
> inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying to insert without
> specifiying the non-null index column !!! ). This failure is 100% NB
> fault since I don't alter anything NB creates during the wizard
> process.. I jsut wanted to see if I could use the wizard on to create
> a desktop DB app that would do whatever the wizard would create it to
> do- answer... NOPE!
>
> Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views, overlapping side
> windows, views that switch through one-off non-conventional (mouse
> over the button to trigger the button !!!) gestures.... I could go on
> forever... but still...
>
> it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@...
> <mailto:jessh@...>> wrote:
>
>     software visualization wrote:
>
>         Kurt said:
>         My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about
>         because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that
>         it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.
>
>         Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as
>         they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with
>         pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the price is
>         totally OK, the software keeps on working you only upgrade if
>         you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins for it
>         easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic.
>         Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe problem
>         is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in any way
>         you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it were,
>         we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
>         plugins against is, well, inscrutable.
>
>         But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.
>
>     Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest
>     version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy with it.
>
>     --
>     Jess Holle
>
>

[swing_developer]

I did on some of them. I think there's a failure in language at work here however.

We need a word that captures the apathy which sets in towards the filing of bug reports when such activity threatens to consume the majority of the working day owing to their number and type. Sort of a critical mass concept- beyond this frequency of bugs, bug report numbers tend to start going down, even as the number of bugs are going up....

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <Geertjan.Wielenga@...> wrote:

http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html

You need to create issues for these, with step by step instructions that someone will then be able to follow to reproduce your issues.

Gj

software visualization wrote:

yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I totally agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a can't live without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the plugins b/c I don't need them, and that makes it even faster still. Shoot that guy my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.

In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we == people who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing the power of open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing here is virtually every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .

Just today's bounty of bugs-

1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the ALTER TABLE statement!

2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in the services window (still with H2)

3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)

4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as in 3 above

5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of course all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying to insert without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ). This failure is 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB creates during the wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I could use the wizard on to create a desktop DB app that would do whatever the wizard would create it to do- answer... NOPE!

Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views, overlapping side windows, views that switch through one-off non-conventional (mouse over the button to trigger the button !!!) gestures.... I could go on forever... but still...

it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@... <mailto:jessh@...>> wrote:

   software visualization wrote:

       Kurt said:
       My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about
       because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that
       it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.

       Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as
       they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with
       pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the price is
       totally OK, the software keeps on working you only upgrade if
       you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins for it
       easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic.
       Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe problem
       is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in any way
       you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it were,
       we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
       plugins against is, well, inscrutable.

       But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.

   Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest
   version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy with it.

   --
   Jess Holle

[Geertjan Wielenga]

software visualization wrote:
> I did on some of them. I think there's a failure in language at work
> here however.
OK. Let's take this one:

"failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when
creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application
(connected this time to javaDB)"

That should be reproducible because JavaDB sample databases are
available with the IDE. So, please describe step by step what you did
that resulted in the problem described above.

-- Gj

>
> We need a word that captures the apathy which sets in towards the
> filing of bug reports when such activity threatens to consume the
> majority of the working day owing to their number and type. Sort of a
> critical mass concept- beyond this frequency of bugs, bug report
> numbers tend to start going down, even as the number of bugs are going
> up....
>
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
> <Geertjan.Wielenga@... <mailto:Geertjan.Wielenga@...>> wrote:
>
>
>     http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html
>
>     You need to create issues for these, with step by step
>     instructions that someone will then be able to follow to reproduce
>     your issues.
>
>     Gj
>
>     software visualization wrote:
>
>         yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I
>         totally agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a
>         can't live without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the
>         plugins b/c I don't need them, and that makes it even faster
>         still. Shoot that guy my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.
>
>         In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we ==
>         people who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing
>         the power of open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing
>         here is virtually every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .
>
>         Just today's bounty of bugs-
>
>         1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the
>         ALTER TABLE statement!
>
>         2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in
>         the services window (still with H2)
>
>         3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in
>         persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop
>         application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)
>
>         4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as
>         in 3 above
>
>         5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it
>         doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of
>         course all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying
>         to insert without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ).
>         This failure is 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB
>         creates during the wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I
>         could use the wizard on to create a desktop DB app that would
>         do whatever the wizard would create it to do- answer... NOPE!
>
>         Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views,
>         overlapping side windows, views that switch through one-off
>         non-conventional (mouse over the button to trigger the button
>         !!!) gestures.... I could go on forever... but still...
>
>         it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!
>
>
>         On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@...
>         <mailto:jessh@...> <mailto:jessh@...
>         <mailto:jessh@...>>> wrote:
>
>            software visualization wrote:
>
>                Kurt said:
>                My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came
>         about
>                because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so
>         hard that
>                it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no
>         fun at all.
>
>                Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that
>         is, as
>                they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with
>                pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the
>         price is
>                totally OK, the software keeps on working you only
>         upgrade if
>                you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins
>         for it
>                easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic.
>                Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe
>         problem
>                is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in
>         any way
>                you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if
>         it were,
>                we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
>                plugins against is, well, inscrutable.
>
>                But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.
>
>            Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest
>            version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy
>         with it.
>
>            --
>            Jess Holle
>
>
>
>

[swing_developer]

Ok I am reproducing as I type. FWIW, here's another one (which I'll file unless someone tells me it's not a bug...) when you delete an index (mouse over index, delete it.. buh-bye!) that deletion appears not to effect the indexiness of the column which was an index (but should not be any longer, since it was deleted) at least , the icon representing that column  still indicates it thinks its an index....

and also FWIW double index appearing in the GUi sceren shot is attached, if the forum permits attachments...

 

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:47 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <Geertjan.Wielenga@...> wrote:

software visualization wrote:

I did on some of them. I think there's a failure in language at work here however.

OK. Let's take this one:

"failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)"

That should be reproducible because JavaDB sample databases are available with the IDE. So, please describe step by step what you did that resulted in the problem described above.

-- Gj

We need a word that captures the apathy which sets in towards the filing of bug reports when such activity threatens to consume the majority of the working day owing to their number and type. Sort of a critical mass concept- beyond this frequency of bugs, bug report numbers tend to start going down, even as the number of bugs are going up....

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <Geertjan.Wielenga@... <mailto:Geertjan.Wielenga@...>> wrote:


   http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html

   You need to create issues for these, with step by step
   instructions that someone will then be able to follow to reproduce
   your issues.

   Gj

   software visualization wrote:

       yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I
       totally agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a
       can't live without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the
       plugins b/c I don't need them, and that makes it even faster
       still. Shoot that guy my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.

       In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we ==
       people who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing
       the power of open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing
       here is virtually every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .

       Just today's bounty of bugs-

       1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the
       ALTER TABLE statement!

       2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in
       the services window (still with H2)

       3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in
       persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop
       application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)

       4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as
       in 3 above

       5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it
       doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of
       course all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying
       to insert without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ).
       This failure is 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB
       creates during the wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I
       could use the wizard on to create a desktop DB app that would
       do whatever the wizard would create it to do- answer... NOPE!

       Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views,
       overlapping side windows, views that switch through one-off
       non-conventional (mouse over the button to trigger the button
       !!!) gestures.... I could go on forever... but still...

       it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!


       On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@...

       <mailto:jessh@...> <mailto:jessh@...

       <mailto:jessh@...>>> wrote:

          software visualization wrote:

              Kurt said:
              My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came
       about
              because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so
       hard that
              it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no
       fun at all.

              Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that
       is, as
              they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with
              pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the
       price is
              totally OK, the software keeps on working you only
       upgrade if
              you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins
       for it
              easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic.
              Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe
       problem
              is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in
       any way
              you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if
       it were,
              we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
              plugins against is, well, inscrutable.

              But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.

          Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest
          version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy
       with it.

          --
          Jess Holle

[swing_developer]

Can only create new columns for a table in services window.. can't delete them once they're created... have to delete entire table to change / delete a column through the services window?  That's probably a RFE?

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:58 PM, software visualization <softwarevisualization@...> wrote:

Ok I am reproducing as I type. FWIW, here's another one (which I'll file unless someone tells me it's not a bug...) when you delete an index (mouse over index, delete it.. buh-bye!) that deletion appears not to effect the indexiness of the column which was an index (but should not be any longer, since it was deleted) at least , the icon representing that column  still indicates it thinks its an index....

and also FWIW double index appearing in the GUi sceren shot is attached, if the forum permits attachments...

 

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:47 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <Geertjan.Wielenga@...> wrote:

software visualization wrote:

I did on some of them. I think there's a failure in language at work here however.

OK. Let's take this one:

"failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)"

That should be reproducible because JavaDB sample databases are available with the IDE. So, please describe step by step what you did that resulted in the problem described above.

-- Gj

We need a word that captures the apathy which sets in towards the filing of bug reports when such activity threatens to consume the majority of the working day owing to their number and type. Sort of a critical mass concept- beyond this frequency of bugs, bug report numbers tend to start going down, even as the number of bugs are going up....

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <Geertjan.Wielenga@... <mailto:Geertjan.Wielenga@...>> wrote:


   http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html

   You need to create issues for these, with step by step
   instructions that someone will then be able to follow to reproduce
   your issues.

   Gj

   software visualization wrote:

       yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I
       totally agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a
       can't live without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the
       plugins b/c I don't need them, and that makes it even faster
       still. Shoot that guy my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.

       In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we ==
       people who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing
       the power of open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing
       here is virtually every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .

       Just today's bounty of bugs-

       1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the
       ALTER TABLE statement!

       2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in
       the services window (still with H2)

       3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in
       persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop
       application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)

       4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as
       in 3 above

       5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it
       doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of
       course all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying
       to insert without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ).
       This failure is 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB
       creates during the wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I
       could use the wizard on to create a desktop DB app that would
       do whatever the wizard would create it to do- answer... NOPE!

       Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views,
       overlapping side windows, views that switch through one-off
       non-conventional (mouse over the button to trigger the button
       !!!) gestures.... I could go on forever... but still...

       it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!


       On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@...

       <mailto:jessh@...> <mailto:jessh@...

       <mailto:jessh@...>>> wrote:

          software visualization wrote:

              Kurt said:
              My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came
       about
              because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so
       hard that
              it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no
       fun at all.

              Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that
       is, as
              they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with
              pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the
       price is
              totally OK, the software keeps on working you only
       upgrade if
              you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins
       for it
              easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic.
              Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe
       problem
              is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in
       any way
              you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if
       it were,
              we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
              plugins against is, well, inscrutable.

              But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.

          Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest
          version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy
       with it.

          --
          Jess Holle

[Kurt Olsen-3]

I appreciate all the suggestions, especially IntelliJ but the
thing....nobody else supports jsr295/296 yes? it's logical that netbeans
is first yes?
I don't think the jsr's are finalized yet even....Bleeding
edge-n-all...I can hear it now :)
That's what I was going for....add derby and annotated ejb3 and you have
a nice application seed...
I was under the impression that nothing else offers the binding
yet....do they?
Kurt

Michael Mellinger wrote:

> It's an IDE.  How are you locked in?  The code can be moved to
> Eclipse, IntelliJ or Emacs in a short period of time.
>
> -Mike
> http://thespanishsite.com
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Don Millhofer <dmillhofer@...> wrote:
>  
>> A friend, another small development shop, told me not to bet the business on
>> NetBeans.  At the time I was using NetBeans to develop desktop apps with
>> success.  But now trying to roll out web solutions in a timely manner I
>> understand all to well what he meant.  We can work around issues in Java,
>> there are a lot of different approaches but when the IDE in misbehaving it
>> can drive the whole team nuts and time lines fall a part.  Its too late for
>> us we are committed to NetBeans.
>>
>> Don
>>
>>    
>
>  

[lmw]

well,I have used Eclipse before,and it's really bothering me to find plugins and ,when ever the Eclipse upgrades,even the smallest upgrading,you need to find new plugins.........and you need install a lot plugins to make Eclipse work (uml etc),and that's the reason why I want to choose another IDE.

but,the Eclipse is quicker,much quicker than Netbeans,you need't wait 3minutes to open the plugin develop page!You needn't wait 2minuts unless you can really use the IDE after it startup.

In China,I seldom heared companys use Netbeans as their develop tools,but I do know a lot companys use Eclipse(WTP) or MyEclipse as their tools.And you will find tens of books in Eclipse,but only one or two in Netbeans(and seldom in Jbuilder,none in IDEA.....strange,hehe,the most populer java develop IDE is Eclipse,the second is JBuilder.).

So,I really don't know  how many people will use Ruby and php or Python?As a pure java developer,I never use them. I care nothing about if NB support them or not.

If NB 6.5 does not make itself quicker and work as the developer wishes(DO NOTHING UNLESS I WANT IT TO DO),I think it will still have no chance in the combat with Eclipse.

Best regards,

lmw

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Ross" <rob.ross@...>
To: <nbusers@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: [nbusers] An explanation (excuse?)

> I agree with this. I use IDEA and I truly love it. I've never been as  
> productive with any other IDE, and I've used quite a few over the  
> years (MS Visual J++, Symantec Visual Cafe, JBuilder, CodeWarrior,  
> Eclipse, NetBeans, Xcode).
>
> Also, it says quite a lot about this software that people will  
> actually pay money for it, even in the presence of "free"  
> alternatives. Sometimes the free alternative is actually more  
> expensive in the long run.
>
> To keep this on-topic, NetBeans would be wiser to chase the feature  
> set in IDEA and not Eclipse. I've tried Eclipse and found it to be  
> slow, bloated, and ugly. But that's obviously just my personal  
> experience and your experience may be different.
>
>
> Rob Ross, Lead Software Engineer
> E! Networks
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his  
> heart he dreams himself your master." -- Commissioner Pravin Lal
>
>
>
> On Jul 16, 2008, at 3:16 PM, software visualization wrote:
>
> > Kurt said:
> > My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about  
> > because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's  
> > just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.
> >
> > Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as they  
> > say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with pleasure"...)  
> > If you're making money programming, the price is totally OK, the  
> > software keeps on working you only upgrade if you want to (I always  
> > want to). You can't write plugins for it easily, but the out of the  
> > box functionality is fantastic. Both NB and Eclipse are miles away  
> > from IntelliJ. THe problem is, no real chance to write a plugin or  
> > change it in any way you find useful because it's not OS (and I  
> > *think* if it were, we might not like what we see...) and the  
> > OpenAPI to write plugins against is, well, inscrutable.
> >
> > But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.
> >
>

[lmw]

well,I have used Eclipse before,and it's really bothering me to find plugins and ,when ever the Eclipse upgrades,even the smallest upgrading,you need to find new plugins.........and you need install a lot plugins to make Eclipse work (uml etc),and that's the reason why I want to choose another IDE.

but,the Eclipse is quicker,much quicker than Netbeans,you need't wait 3minutes to open the plugin develop page!You needn't wait 2minuts unless you can really use the IDE after it startup.

In China,I seldom heared companys use Netbeans as their develop tools,but I do know a lot companys use Eclipse(WTP) or MyEclipse as their tools.And you will find tens of books in Eclipse,but only one or two in Netbeans(and seldom in Jbuilder,none in IDEA.....strange,hehe,the most populer java develop IDE is Eclipse,the second is JBuilder.).

So,I really don't know  how many people will use Ruby and php or Python?As a pure java developer,I never use them. I care nothing about if NB support them or not.

If NB 6.5 does not make itself quicker and work as the developer wishes(DO NOTHING UNLESS I WANT IT TO DO),I think it will still have no chance in the combat with Eclipse.

Best regards,

lmw

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Ross" <rob.ross@...>
To: <nbusers@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: [nbusers] An explanation (excuse?)

> I agree with this. I use IDEA and I truly love it. I've never been as  
> productive with any other IDE, and I've used quite a few over the  
> years (MS Visual J++, Symantec Visual Cafe, JBuilder, CodeWarrior,  
> Eclipse, NetBeans, Xcode).
>
> Also, it says quite a lot about this software that people will  
> actually pay money for it, even in the presence of "free"  
> alternatives. Sometimes the free alternative is actually more  
> expensive in the long run.
>
> To keep this on-topic, NetBeans would be wiser to chase the feature  
> set in IDEA and not Eclipse. I've tried Eclipse and found it to be  
> slow, bloated, and ugly. But that's obviously just my personal  
> experience and your experience may be different.
>
>
> Rob Ross, Lead Software Engineer
> E! Networks
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his  
> heart he dreams himself your master." -- Commissioner Pravin Lal
>
>
>
> On Jul 16, 2008, at 3:16 PM, software visualization wrote:
>
> > Kurt said:
> > My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about  
> > because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's  
> > just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.
> >
> > Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as they  
> > say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with pleasure"...)  
> > If you're making money programming, the price is totally OK, the  
> > software keeps on working you only upgrade if you want to (I always  
> > want to). You can't write plugins for it easily, but the out of the  
> > box functionality is fantastic. Both NB and Eclipse are miles away  
> > from IntelliJ. THe problem is, no real chance to write a plugin or  
> > change it in any way you find useful because it's not OS (and I  
> > *think* if it were, we might not like what we see...) and the  
> > OpenAPI to write plugins against is, well, inscrutable.
> >
> > But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.
> >
>

[Kurt Olsen-3]

Noooooooooooooo!
The netbeans core devs just need to put all that profiling to work - not
piecemeal like that please!
Ahhhh - Snow Leopard - Apple, I just loved that name, we need the same
thing - just the same - and all better now.....
We all know what needs to be done, a cleanup round! yeah!
Just use it, fix all the slow things, don't let anything slide, it'll be
great....;)

Kurt

Geertjan Wielenga wrote:

>
> http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html
>
> You need to create issues for these, with step by step instructions
> that someone will then be able to follow to reproduce your issues.
>
> Gj
>
> software visualization wrote:
>> yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I totally
>> agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a can't live
>> without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the plugins b/c I
>> don't need them, and that makes it even faster still. Shoot that guy
>> my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.
>>
>> In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we == people
>> who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing the power of
>> open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing here is virtually every
>> single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .
>>
>> Just today's bounty of bugs-
>>
>> 1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the ALTER
>> TABLE statement!
>>
>> 2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in the
>> services window (still with H2)
>>
>> 3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence
>> when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database
>> application (connected this time to javaDB)
>>
>> 4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as in 3
>> above
>>
>> 5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it doesn't
>> include the index column when it create my app and of course all
>> inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying to insert without
>> specifiying the non-null index column !!! ). This failure is 100% NB
>> fault since I don't alter anything NB creates during the wizard
>> process.. I jsut wanted to see if I could use the wizard on to create
>> a desktop DB app that would do whatever the wizard would create it to
>> do- answer... NOPE!
>>
>> Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views, overlapping side
>> windows, views that switch through one-off non-conventional (mouse
>> over the button to trigger the button !!!) gestures.... I could go on
>> forever... but still...
>>
>> it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@...
>> <mailto:jessh@...>> wrote:
>>
>>     software visualization wrote:
>>
>>         Kurt said:
>>         My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about
>>         because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that
>>         it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at
>> all.
>>
>>         Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as
>>         they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with
>>         pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the price is
>>         totally OK, the software keeps on working you only upgrade if
>>         you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins for it
>>         easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic.
>>         Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe problem
>>         is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in any way
>>         you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it were,
>>         we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
>>         plugins against is, well, inscrutable.
>>
>>         But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.
>>
>>     Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest
>>     version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy with it.
>>
>>     --
>>     Jess Holle
>>
>>
>
>

[Kurt Olsen-3]

Totally agree, folks, I'll help, if somebody would agree to consult with
me briefly as regards setting up either my windows xp, or osx-tiger
systems so that I can quickly build netbeans then I'll gladly pitch in
and goto work in some areas of the gui-designer...then you can throw
rotten tomatoes at me....?
I'll do the setup work, would just be nice to have rapid-response during
the setup period ya know?
Kurt


software visualization wrote:

> I did on some of them. I think there's a failure in language at work
> here however.
>
> We need a word that captures the apathy which sets in towards the
> filing of bug reports when such activity threatens to consume the
> majority of the working day owing to their number and type. Sort of a
> critical mass concept- beyond this frequency of bugs, bug report
> numbers tend to start going down, even as the number of bugs are going
> up....
>

> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
> <Geertjan.Wielenga@... <mailto:Geertjan.Wielenga@...>> wrote:
>
>
>     http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html
>
>     You need to create issues for these, with step by step
>     instructions that someone will then be able to follow to reproduce
>     your issues.
>
>     Gj
>
>     software visualization wrote:
>
>         yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I
>         totally agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a
>         can't live without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the
>         plugins b/c I don't need them, and that makes it even faster
>         still. Shoot that guy my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.
>
>         In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we ==
>         people who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing
>         the power of open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing
>         here is virtually every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .
>
>         Just today's bounty of bugs-
>
>         1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the
>         ALTER TABLE statement!
>
>         2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in
>         the services window (still with H2)
>
>         3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in
>         persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop
>         application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)
>
>         4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as
>         in 3 above
>
>         5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it
>         doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of
>         course all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying
>         to insert without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ).
>         This failure is 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB
>         creates during the wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I
>         could use the wizard on to create a desktop DB app that would
>         do whatever the wizard would create it to do- answer... NOPE!
>
>         Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views,
>         overlapping side windows, views that switch through one-off
>         non-conventional (mouse over the button to trigger the button
>         !!!) gestures.... I could go on forever... but still...
>
>         it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!
>
>
>         On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@...
>         <mailto:jessh@...> <mailto:jessh@...
>         <mailto:jessh@...>>> wrote:
>
>            software visualization wrote:
>
>                Kurt said:
>                My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came
>         about
>                because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so
>         hard that
>                it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no
>         fun at all.
>
>                Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that
>         is, as
>                they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with
>                pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the
>         price is
>                totally OK, the software keeps on working you only
>         upgrade if
>                you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins
>         for it
>                easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic.
>                Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe
>         problem
>                is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in
>         any way
>                you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if
>         it were,
>                we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
>                plugins against is, well, inscrutable.
>
>                But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.
>
>            Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest
>            version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy
>         with it.
>
>            --
>            Jess Holle
>
>
>
>

[Geertjan Wielenga]

Kurt Olsen wrote:
> Noooooooooooooo!
> The netbeans core devs just need to put all that profiling to work -
> not piecemeal like that please!
> Ahhhh - Snow Leopard - Apple, I just loved that name, we need the same
> thing - just the same - and all better now.....
> We all know what needs to be done, a cleanup round! yeah!
> Just use it, fix all the slow things, don't let anything slide, it'll
> be great....;)

How will that help with:

"failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when
creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application
(connected this time to javaDB)"

I'd like to take the steps required to reproduce this.

-- Geertjan

>
> Kurt
>
> Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
>>
>> http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html
>>
>> You need to create issues for these, with step by step instructions
>> that someone will then be able to follow to reproduce your issues.
>>
>> Gj
>>
>> software visualization wrote:
>>> yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I totally
>>> agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a can't live
>>> without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the plugins b/c I
>>> don't need them, and that makes it even faster still. Shoot that guy
>>> my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.
>>>
>>> In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we == people
>>> who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing the power of
>>> open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing here is virtually
>>> every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .
>>>
>>> Just today's bounty of bugs-
>>>
>>> 1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the ALTER
>>> TABLE statement!
>>>
>>> 2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in the
>>> services window (still with H2)
>>>
>>> 3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence
>>> when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database
>>> application (connected this time to javaDB)
>>>
>>> 4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as in 3
>>> above
>>>
>>> 5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it
>>> doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of course
>>> all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying to insert
>>> without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ). This failure is
>>> 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB creates during the
>>> wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I could use the wizard on
>>> to create a desktop DB app that would do whatever the wizard would
>>> create it to do- answer... NOPE!
>>>
>>> Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views, overlapping
>>> side windows, views that switch through one-off non-conventional
>>> (mouse over the button to trigger the button !!!) gestures.... I
>>> could go on forever... but still...
>>>
>>> it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@...
>>> <mailto:jessh@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     software visualization wrote:
>>>
>>>         Kurt said:
>>>         My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about
>>>         because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that
>>>         it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at
>>> all.
>>>
>>>         Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as
>>>         they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with
>>>         pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the price is
>>>         totally OK, the software keeps on working you only upgrade if
>>>         you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins for it
>>>         easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic.
>>>         Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe problem
>>>         is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in any way
>>>         you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it were,
>>>         we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
>>>         plugins against is, well, inscrutable.
>>>
>>>         But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.
>>>
>>>     Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest
>>>     version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy with
>>> it.
>>>
>>>     --
>>>     Jess Holle
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

[Kurt Olsen-3]

Aloha all,

I know what you mean Geertjan.....how do I describe this...
Reading the entire text of software_visualization's message,  the part
that  is most important  (I think) is: "Just today's bounty of bugs"
That is the 'forest' not 'trees' view of netbeans.
The individual bug reports are the trees, but the forest is infected
with a fungus-among-us in the sheer quantity, and type of things that
don't work.
Among which are absolutely essential operations - repeat - absolutely
essential operations, refactoring, code-completion, gui component
renaming...criticals...
Somebody with the power to do something to the code base en-masse needs
to fly out here to honolulu hawaii and spend a couple of days working
with me. If somebody wants to do that, I'll spiffy up my apt. in
downtown waikiki, you can stay there, I'll find another place to be,
I'll try to use netbeans to write my code, you record the problems
encountered, and after work you can go find some fun-n-sun. A working
vacation.  I'll make it happen if the netbeans core team wants to send a
representative out here. It'll save you the hotel price, and I guarantee
you'll end up agreeing with me that something really has to be done. The
weather's great right now :)


Mahalo,
Kurt





Geertjan Wielenga wrote:

> Kurt Olsen wrote:
>> Noooooooooooooo!
>> The netbeans core devs just need to put all that profiling to work -
>> not piecemeal like that please!
>> Ahhhh - Snow Leopard - Apple, I just loved that name, we need the
>> same thing - just the same - and all better now.....
>> We all know what needs to be done, a cleanup round! yeah!
>> Just use it, fix all the slow things, don't let anything slide, it'll
>> be great....;)
>
> How will that help with:
>
> "failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when
> creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database
> application (connected this time to javaDB)"
>
> I'd like to take the steps required to reproduce this.
>
> -- Geertjan
>
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>> Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html
>>>
>>> You need to create issues for these, with step by step instructions
>>> that someone will then be able to follow to reproduce your issues.
>>>
>>> Gj
>>>
>>> software visualization wrote:
>>>> yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I totally
>>>> agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a can't live
>>>> without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the plugins b/c I
>>>> don't need them, and that makes it even faster still. Shoot that
>>>> guy my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.
>>>>
>>>> In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we ==
>>>> people who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing the
>>>> power of open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing here is
>>>> virtually every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .
>>>>
>>>> Just today's bounty of bugs-
>>>>
>>>> 1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the
>>>> ALTER TABLE statement!
>>>>
>>>> 2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in the
>>>> services window (still with H2)
>>>>
>>>> 3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence
>>>> when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database
>>>> application (connected this time to javaDB)
>>>>
>>>> 4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as in 3
>>>> above
>>>>
>>>> 5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it
>>>> doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of
>>>> course all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying to
>>>> insert without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ). This
>>>> failure is 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB creates
>>>> during the wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I could use the
>>>> wizard on to create a desktop DB app that would do whatever the
>>>> wizard would create it to do- answer... NOPE!
>>>>
>>>> Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views, overlapping
>>>> side windows, views that switch through one-off non-conventional
>>>> (mouse over the button to trigger the button !!!) gestures.... I
>>>> could go on forever... but still...
>>>>
>>>> it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@...
>>>> <mailto:jessh@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     software visualization wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         Kurt said:
>>>>         My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about
>>>>         because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that
>>>>         it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun
>>>> at all.
>>>>
>>>>         Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as
>>>>         they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with
>>>>         pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the price is
>>>>         totally OK, the software keeps on working you only upgrade if
>>>>         you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins for it
>>>>         easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic.
>>>>         Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe problem
>>>>         is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in any way
>>>>         you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it were,
>>>>         we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
>>>>         plugins against is, well, inscrutable.
>>>>
>>>>         But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.
>>>>
>>>>     Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest
>>>>     version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy
>>>> with it.
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>     Jess Holle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

[Jess Holle]

I could raise many "forests" of bugs (e.g. the various "insert code"-like features, code completion, etc, do not obey my code formatting preferences at all -- and it irks me to no end), but frankly I'd like the NetBeans guys to forget about all of these for a while and fix the darn navigation/code-completion database creation/update (index/compile/scan) [both in terms of speed and in terms of not blocking lookups while updating] and get the navigation/code-completion lookup speed to be nearly instantaneous even for huge codebases.  It's clearly doable, it's clearly expected, and the failing in this area is about the first (and most frequent) thing you see when using NetBeans.

Someone on this thread mentioned the Plugins dialog.  I'd have to agree that this UI should be much faster -- this is embarrassing.  That said, it does not really hurt me as a user as I use this dialog so rarely.  Code navigation/completion (especially navigation) is something I use constantly in NetBeans -- any issues there are automatically huge.

--
Jess Holle

Kurt Olsen wrote:

Aloha all,

I know what you mean Geertjan.....how do I describe this...
Reading the entire text of software_visualization's message,  the part that  is most important  (I think) is: "Just today's bounty of bugs"
That is the 'forest' not 'trees' view of netbeans.
The individual bug reports are the trees, but the forest is infected with a fungus-among-us in the sheer quantity, and type of things that don't work.
Among which are absolutely essential operations - repeat - absolutely essential operations, refactoring, code-completion, gui component renaming...criticals...
Somebody with the power to do something to the code base en-masse needs to fly out here to honolulu hawaii and spend a couple of days working with me. If somebody wants to do that, I'll spiffy up my apt. in downtown waikiki, you can stay there, I'll find another place to be, I'll try to use netbeans to write my code, you record the problems encountered, and after work you can go find some fun-n-sun. A working vacation.  I'll make it happen if the netbeans core team wants to send a representative out here. It'll save you the hotel price, and I guarantee you'll end up agreeing with me that something really has to be done. The weather's great right now :)


Mahalo,
Kurt





Geertjan Wielenga wrote:

Kurt Olsen wrote:

Noooooooooooooo!
The netbeans core devs just need to put all that profiling to work - not piecemeal like that please!
Ahhhh - Snow Leopard - Apple, I just loved that name, we need the same thing - just the same - and all better now.....
We all know what needs to be done, a cleanup round! yeah!
Just use it, fix all the slow things, don't let anything slide, it'll be great....;)

How will that help with:

"failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)"

I'd like to take the steps required to reproduce this.

-- Geertjan

Kurt

Geertjan Wielenga wrote:

http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html

You need to create issues for these, with step by step instructions that someone will then be able to follow to reproduce your issues.

Gj

software visualization wrote:

yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I totally agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a can't live without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the plugins b/c I don't need them, and that makes it even faster still. Shoot that guy my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.

In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we == people who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing the power of open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing here is virtually every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .

Just today's bounty of bugs-

1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the ALTER TABLE statement!

2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in the services window (still with H2)

3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)

4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as in 3 above

5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of course all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying to insert without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ). This failure is 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB creates during the wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I could use the wizard on to create a desktop DB app that would do whatever the wizard would create it to do- answer... NOPE!

Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views, overlapping side windows, views that switch through one-off non-conventional (mouse over the button to trigger the button !!!) gestures.... I could go on forever... but still...

it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!


On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@... jessh@...> wrote:

    software visualization wrote:

        Kurt said:
        My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about
        because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that
        it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.

        Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as
        they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with
        pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the price is
        totally OK, the software keeps on working you only upgrade if
        you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins for it
        easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic.
        Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe problem
        is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in any way
        you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it were,
        we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
        plugins against is, well, inscrutable.

        But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.

    Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest
    version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy with it.

    --
    Jess Holle

[swing_developer]

Like all bugs, the steps required to reproduce them are not necessarily  known to the bug finder who just ended up with the result. Usually, a period of independent investigation goes on when something like that happens- it's not assumed that a bug has just been encountered. In my case, I eventually just ditched the table and started over again after monkeying around with other things to try to understand what was happening. It's not our goal to systematically find and record bugs, we're trying to get something done.

 I gave it a couple of tries last night before retiring and I'll continue to do so, but the point is, I didn't just pull it out of my hat, so to speak. There it was before me - a table missing two columns in the GUI (for instance, resizing the GUI frame didn't bring them into view or anything like that) with no way to enter data into those rows and update failures owing to the fact that there was no way to enter data into those columns. The columns were however clearly visible in the services window view and I had created them using the NB tool. There is was and that's that.

I am not down on NB.. for reasons I've already presented in this thread, I very much want it to succeed. I am appreciative of the team's efforts. Email is an inefficient transmitter of subtext and intonation so let me just say explicitly that I am very hopeful regarding NB and try to do as much as I have time and talent to constructively contribute to its well- being.

sv

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 4:18 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <Geertjan.Wielenga@...> wrote:

Kurt Olsen wrote:

Noooooooooooooo!
The netbeans core devs just need to put all that profiling to work - not piecemeal like that please!
Ahhhh - Snow Leopard - Apple, I just loved that name, we need the same thing - just the same - and all better now.....
We all know what needs to be done, a cleanup round! yeah!
Just use it, fix all the slow things, don't let anything slide, it'll be great....;)

How will that help with:

"failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)"

I'd like to take the steps required to reproduce this.

-- Geertjan

Kurt

Geertjan Wielenga wrote:

http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html

You need to create issues for these, with step by step instructions that someone will then be able to follow to reproduce your issues.

Gj

software visualization wrote:

yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I totally agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a can't live without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the plugins b/c I don't need them, and that makes it even faster still. Shoot that guy my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.

In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we == people who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing the power of open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing here is virtually every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .

Just today's bounty of bugs-

1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the ALTER TABLE statement!

2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in the services window (still with H2)

3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)

4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as in 3 above

5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of course all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying to insert without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ). This failure is 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB creates during the wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I could use the wizard on to create a desktop DB app that would do whatever the wizard would create it to do- answer... NOPE!

Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views, overlapping side windows, views that switch through one-off non-conventional (mouse over the button to trigger the button !!!) gestures.... I could go on forever... but still...

it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!


On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@... <mailto:jessh@...>> wrote:

   software visualization wrote:

       Kurt said:
       My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about
       because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that
       it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.

       Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as
       they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with
       pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the price is
       totally OK, the software keeps on working you only upgrade if
       you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins for it
       easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic.
       Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe problem
       is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in any way
       you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it were,
       we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write
       plugins against is, well, inscrutable.

       But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.

   Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest
   version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy with it.

   --
   Jess Holle

[Thomas Wolf-4]

Man, you just made my day :-)
...from another sucker....


software visualization wrote:

Bug # whatever:

Inspector view will let me highlight an item, change it's name, but this doesn't trigger off any refactoring... it lets me complete the edit then merrily changes it back... I *think* a saw the briefest pop-up that read "sucker" but it may have been my imagination.....

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:36 PM, software visualization <softwarevisualization@...> wrote:

yeah? version 7? I love it.. it claims it's faster and I totally agree faster by much. The Dependency Matrix tool is a can't live without once you've used it. I unplug a lot of the plugins b/c I don't need them, and that makes it even faster still. Shoot that guy my email and I'll chat IntelliJ with him.

In the end, NB just has to work. It's the only hope we (we == people who agree with my POV  ..lol...) have for unleashing the power of open source on an IDE. The discouraging thing here is virtually every single feature I touch is broken (6.1) .

Just today's bounty of bugs-

1 fail to alter table when connected to H2 DB and NB wrote the ALTER TABLE statement!

2 doubling of index in the services view when I create one in the services window (still with H2)

3 failure to present all rows of a DB for inclusion in persistence when creating a new project-->java desktop application-->database application (connected this time to javaDB)

4  wont' allow me to connect to valid H2 db when proceeding as in 3 above

5 failure in INSERT statement owing to failure in 3 above (it doesn't include the index column when it create my app and of course all inserts fail, telling me what jerk I am for trying to insert without specifiying the non-null index column !!! ). This failure is 100% NB fault since I don't alter anything NB creates during the wizard process.. I jsut wanted to see if I could use the wizard on to create a desktop DB app that would do whatever the wizard would create it to do- answer... NOPE!

Oh it just goes on and and on... disappearing views, overlapping side windows, views that switch through one-off non-conventional (mouse over the button to trigger the button !!!) gestures.... I could go on forever... but still...

it's got to be made to work .. just... has got to!!!

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Jess Holle <jessh@...> wrote:

software visualization wrote:

Kurt said:
My postings, my irritation, anger etc. etc....They came about because on any given day Netbeans is fighting me so hard that it's just draining....It makes the work absolutely no fun at all.

Try IntelliJ. It's a world class, rock solid IDE that is, as they say, a pleasure to use (their slogan is "develop with pleasure"...) If you're making money programming, the price is totally OK, the software keeps on working you only upgrade if you want to (I always want to). You can't write plugins for it easily, but the out of the box functionality is fantastic. Both NB and Eclipse are miles away from IntelliJ. THe problem is, no real chance to write a plugin or change it in any way you find useful because it's not OS (and I *think* if it were, we might not like what we see...) and the OpenAPI to write plugins against is, well, inscrutable.

But if you need to write code now, there's you're answer.

Curiously the die-hard IntelliJ user I know says the latest version got much, much slower and he's no longer very happy with it.

--
Jess Holle

[Wade Chandler]

Kurt Olsen-3 wrote:

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Look, tone aside, which could/should have been nicer, and you could have chosen to make it more diplomatic, considering this is an open-source project, you high jacked another persons email thread. This is against the rules and etiquette of many projects including this one.

Your input is always welcomed, though it of course depends on how you address people and how you say it, whether they care to listen to what you have to say; trust me, the way we choose to approach people, especially those who work on open source, makes a huge impact on their willingness to work with us and care about our plight as a user. So, next time please try to follow the etiquette guidelines at:
http://www.netbeans.org/community/lists/#etiquette

, and it would benefit you, and everyone else who may feel your same pain on an issue, to think about how you approach an issue before writing. Maybe give yourself some time to cool down if you have been working on something and are upset.

On the Mercurial thing and integration, it depends on the way one views the definition of integrated. Outside tools sometimes need to be upgraded independently. If you have an IDE which not only embeds other tools, such as Mercurial, Glassfish, etc, but also embeds them in the install, then those tools have to be managed by that install. I for one like not having everything installed by the IDE. If I am not going to use Mercurial, then I don't want it.

The other part is, if NB integrates with Perforce in the future, as an example, but pick any other commercial software, then it certainly won't be able to install it for you, so in that case, it is impossible for the IDE to meet your definition of integrated. NB and Eclipse both meet your definition of integration with certain tools because there are Java libraries available for those tools. Currently there is not Java library, that I know of, which handles all things Hg, and it would be hard mainly because Hg differs from other version control systems in that to work with it you have to clone the repository, and thus all the functionality of the server and client has to be available. So, for the best possible solution, one needs the IDE to use the Hg installation.

Thanks for you understanding,

Wade Chandler
NetBeans Board Member (elected by the NetBeans community)

[Wade Chandler]

Wade Chandler wrote:

Kurt Olsen-3 wrote:

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Noooo....First I have to find and download mercurial itself, but it
requires python, so now I'm downloading and installing that.
Maybe eventually I'll be able to actually use mercurial....Maybe not, I
could always make a mistake a waste 2-3 hours here.


Now then, let's discuss the meaning of integrated shall we? Before there
were IDE's there were command line tools. And lots of them. And every
developer had to find and  install the tools (we all) needed themselves.
As time went on this became too complex, a stumbling block. And into
this void was born the 'integrated development environment' - and they
did indeed help. Usually, I could buy one of them (yes we purchased them
long ago) and it included all the 'tools', hid them behind the curtain,
and let me get on with my job - which is supposed to be application
developer as opposed to tool configurator. And life was good.

But now the world is a much more complex place, and the need for an
'integrated' development environment has never been greater.
So, for those who have forgotten the meaning of 'integrated' let me
remind you of something.

You are NOT integrated when the user has to download and install
additional software for the before the 'IDE' can integrate with it?
Got it? - I'm not interested in excuses here either...."we couldn't
because of......" save it please.
You lose the right to call yourself integrated, when you are not.....got
point?
You are NOT integrated when you've added a gui for tools that aren't
installed....

If you can't install the whole--thing-tool-module-whatever-here - YOU
ARE NOT INTEGRATED!

Look, tone aside, which could/should have been nicer, and you could have chosen to make it more diplomatic, considering this is an open-source project, you high jacked another persons email thread. This is against the rules and etiquette of many projects including this one.

Your input is always welcomed, though it of course depends on how you address people and how you say it, whether they care to listen to what you have to say; trust me, the way we choose to approach people, especially those who work on open source, makes a huge impact on their willingness to work with us and care about our plight as a user. So, next time please try to follow the etiquette guidelines at:
http://www.netbeans.org/community/lists/#etiquette

, and it would benefit you, and everyone else who may feel your same pain on an issue, to think about how you approach an issue before writing. Maybe give yourself some time to cool down if you have been working on something and are upset.

On the Mercurial thing and integration, it depends on the way one views the definition of integrated. Outside tools sometimes need to be upgraded independently. If you have an IDE which not only embeds other tools, such as Mercurial, Glassfish, etc, but also embeds them in the install, then those tools have to be managed by that install. I for one like not having everything installed by the IDE. If I am not going to use Mercurial, then I don't want it.

The other part is, if NB integrates with Perforce in the future, as an example, but pick any other commercial software, then it certainly won't be able to install it for you, so in that case, it is impossible for the IDE to meet your definition of integrated. NB and Eclipse both meet your definition of integration with certain tools because there are Java libraries available for those tools. Currently there is not Java library, that I know of, which handles all things Hg, and it would be hard mainly because Hg differs from other version control systems in that to work with it you have to clone the repository, and thus all the functionality of the server and client has to be available. So, for the best possible solution, one needs the IDE to use the Hg installation.

Thanks for you understanding,

Wade Chandler
NetBeans Board Member (elected by the NetBeans community)

I must add that I think the message where you offered to put someone up out there in beautiful Hawaii is a very great gesture, and I think it a good idea. Whether someone gets to or not will of course be up to the project sponsor, but hey if I could afford the ticket right now personally I would come, but I'm not on Sun's engineering team though I do know a bit about the APIs and how to debug NetBeans ;-)

Wade

[Tim Boudreau]

Kurt Olsen-3 wrote:

I've been so irritated at the gui designer in 6.1/6.5m1 that I decided
to download all the sources and try building this beast.
So, I find that its in a mercurial repository. Fine, I remember reading
that netbeans came with mercurial support, which I've never used before.
I go to the versioning menu and lo-and-behold there it is......but it
doesn't work at all...

Others have done an admirable job replying to this thread, so I'll keep this short.

I would love to see Jython reach the point where it could run Mercurial inside the Java process - that's probably the right way to do that sort of integration.  Then python runtimes, etc. could be dispensed with.  Last I heard, Jython isn't at a point where it's safe to do that - but I'd love to hear otherwise.  It's particularly important that version control systems work *perfectly* or they can turn a users files into hamburger.  More than any other kind of external tool, it's a place where being very very conservative seems to me to be a healthy attitude.

The alternative is rewriting Mercurial in Java, which is a permanent game of catch-up to stay current with it - and then you still have to somehow handle Mercurial plug-ins (implement them in Java too?  Whose favorite would get left out?).

The last alternative, and what you appear to be suggesting, is to bundle Mercurial + Python with NetBeans, for all platforms.  There are a number of serious problems with this.  Not the least of which is simply the person-hours to do it, much less test that the installation works on all flavors of Windows, Mac OS, Linux and Solaris when, if it doesn't, the person testing it doesn't actually have the ability to fix the bug because they didn't write the installer for python or mercurial.  Throw on top of that the fact that Linux and Solaris both have their own packaging systems (in the case of Linux, many, many packaging systems) that want you to install software *their* way, and doing otherwise bollixes things up.

I haven't tried setting up/running Hg on Windows;  I believe it could be more difficult than on other OS's (I just built it from source on my mac) as it's pretty Unixy.  At any rate, I'm sorry you're having difficulties, and hope that this explains some of why things are as they are.

-Tim