Non-existant streets

[John Smith-129]

I tried to search the list archives before posting but couldn't see anything about this.

The problem is people noticing non-existant streets on other maps and wasting time to only find out that it doesn't exist, not that it wasn't mapped.

These streets are usually used to prove copyright infringement so is there a way to know a street doesn't exist without breaching someone else's copyright?


     

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[Emilie Laffray]

Yes, there is a way. You simply need to go to the area.
More seriously, I don't see the point of this question since all data that we are supposed to collect are based on facts that we collected. Seeing streets that don't exist should not be a problem in the first place. The problem arises when you actually look at other map providers, which is what we absolutely don't want in the first place.

Emilie Laffray

2009/8/12 John Smith <delta_foxtrot@...>

I tried to search the list archives before posting but couldn't see anything about this.

The problem is people noticing non-existant streets on other maps and wasting time to only find out that it doesn't exist, not that it wasn't mapped.

These streets are usually used to prove copyright infringement so is there a way to know a street doesn't exist without breaching someone else's copyright?

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[Liz-25]

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009, Emilie Laffray wrote:
> Yes, there is a way. You simply need to go to the area.
> More seriously, I don't see the point of this question since all data that
> we are supposed to collect are based on facts that we collected. Seeing
> streets that don't exist should not be a problem in the first place. The
> problem arises when you actually look at other map providers, which is what
> we absolutely don't want in the first place.
>
> Emilie Laffray
can i express this problem more clearly

we are a very small number of mappers covering a very large area.
most proprietary maps contain lines drawn randomly across the map claiming to
be roads.
when planning a route between two towns
we study the proprietary maps, study OSM and pick a route to cover roads not
yet mapped - or just traced off landsat
so it is really very annoying to be looking for a road which doesn't exist
except on paper. the road reserve may exist but it could be completely
overgrown with trees, or be impassable with natural features - a cliff, a
water feature

and its even more annoying to be caught the next time.

we are considering marking roads as impassable, having a "barrier" to their
use or similar markers which may not ever be rendered but would mark the
problem in the database





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[John Smith-129]

--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Emilie Laffray <emilie.laffray@...> wrote:

> Yes, there is a way. You simply need to go
> to the area.
> More seriously, I don't see the point of this question
> since all data that we are supposed to collect are based on
> facts that we collected. Seeing streets that don't exist

That isn't the problem, how to mark it in OSM so others will know it doesn't exist, not that it isn't mapped.

> should not be a problem in the first place. The problem
> arises when you actually look at other map providers, which
> is what we absolutely don't want in the first place.

Australia is a big place and no road data has been imported so lots of it is a very blank canvas.


     

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[Shaun McDonald-3]

On 12 Aug 2009, at 11:16, John Smith wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 12/8/09, Emilie Laffray <emilie.laffray@...> wrote:
>
>> Yes, there is a way. You simply need to go
>> to the area.
>> More seriously, I don't see the point of this question
>> since all data that we are supposed to collect are based on
>> facts that we collected. Seeing streets that don't exist
>
> That isn't the problem, how to mark it in OSM so others will know it  
> doesn't exist, not that it isn't mapped.
>

Draw a way and add note=there is a non-existant road on xxx maps?

It will mean looking at the data rather than the map.

Shaun

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[Vincent MEURISSE-8]

On Wednesday 12 August 2009 12:16:44 pm John Smith wrote:
> how to mark it in OSM so others will know it
> doesn't exist, not that it isn't mapped.
I really don't think marking non-existent stuff in OSM is a good idea. I take
place for nothing and what append if a road is build at the place you mark as
having no road ?

If you really need such a tool, copy the software used by openstreetbug, put
it on your server and then you can have annotations on the map.
 
--
Vincent MEURISSE

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[Emilie Laffray]

2009/8/12 Elizabeth Dodd <edodd@...>

can i express this problem more clearly

we are a very small number of mappers covering a very large area.
most proprietary maps contain lines drawn randomly across the map claiming to
be roads.
when planning a route between two towns
we study the proprietary maps, study OSM and pick a route to cover roads not
yet mapped - or just traced off landsat
so it is really very annoying to be looking for a road which doesn't exist
except on paper. the road reserve may exist but it could be completely
overgrown with trees, or be impassable with natural features - a cliff, a
water feature

and its even more annoying to be caught the next time.

we are considering marking roads as impassable, having a "barrier" to their
use or similar markers which may not ever be rendered but would mark the
problem in the database

Ok, I understand your point. However, I am not sure that there is any way to detect if a road exists or not unless you are going there. You would need a list of existing roads but then we are back to the original point that the data came from a proprietary solution hence the reason why you end up in a bad situation.
I am not sure what would be best. I see why you are looking at those maps to optimize your time to get the mapping done. I can't tell you to ask local people as I am sure in most cases, there won't be any. I understand your request even more since I looked quite extensively at Australia data some time ago. Landsat is not good enough.
Maybe using STRM data (or the new elevation data) might give you some clues about cliff and other features. In addition, while the data from your governement is copyrighted, you have access to an enormous amount of data about natural features (I have seen a huge amount of shapefile if I remember correctly). You may want to look at those to infer what roads could be potentially wrong or not. But I am not sure that approach is what we want to do with OSM.

Emilie Laffray

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[Liz-25]

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009, Vincent MEURISSE wrote:
> If you really need such a tool, copy the software used by openstreetbug,
> put it on your server and then you can have annotations on the map.
thanks Vincent
that could well be a workable solution




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[John Smith-129]

--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Vincent MEURISSE <osm-legal@...> wrote:

> If you really need such a tool, copy the software used by
> openstreetbug, put
> it on your server and then you can have annotations on the
> map.

That's less than I was hoping for, simply because it's hard enough to decide on routes to work out the best mapping coverage with out adding another layer of difficulty on top of things for everyone.


     

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[John Smith-129]

--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Emilie Laffray <emilie.laffray@...> wrote:

> Ok, I understand your point. However, I am not sure that
> there is any way to detect if a road exists or not unless
> you are going there. You would need a list of existing roads

We are going out there and using GPS' however if we see a road on another map when deciding what to map, any number of mappers that come after you could end up finding out the same information. This is what I'm trying to prevent by putting a note on OSM or something to that effect to say "Hey there is no road here, don't bother coming to map it!"

> but then we are back to the original point that the data
> came from a proprietary solution hence the reason why you
> end up in a bad situation.

Only to plan routes, we don't copy from them. We still record where we travel via GPS, it's simply a way to work out what needs to be mapped. If using another map to work out a route was copyright infringement no map would ever be able to be used.

> Maybe using STRM data (or the new elevation data) might

STRM is only good for 90m horizontal per pixel which is just as bad as landsat.

> about natural features (I have seen a huge amount of
> shapefile if I remember correctly). You may want to look at
> those to infer what roads could be potentially wrong or not.
> But I am not sure that approach is what we want to do with
> OSM.

I don't think you fully understood me, we're not trying to work out from other maps what roads don't exist, we are trying to tell mappers that come after us that a road they see on a map doesn't exist and don't waste your time trying to map non-existing roads.


     

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[Chris Hill-5]

Write a Wiki page showing the progress of the area.  You can make comments there.

 cheers, Chris



----- Original Message ----

> From: John Smith <delta_foxtrot@...>
> To: Licensing and other legal discussions. <legal-talk@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 August, 2009 11:55:07
> Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
>
>
> --- On Wed, 12/8/09, Emilie Laffray wrote:
>
> > Ok, I understand your point. However, I am not sure that
> > there is any way to detect if a road exists or not unless
> > you are going there. You would need a list of existing roads
>
> We are going out there and using GPS' however if we see a road on another map
> when deciding what to map, any number of mappers that come after you could end
> up finding out the same information. This is what I'm trying to prevent by
> putting a note on OSM or something to that effect to say "Hey there is no road
> here, don't bother coming to map it!"
>
> > but then we are back to the original point that the data
> > came from a proprietary solution hence the reason why you
> > end up in a bad situation.
>
> Only to plan routes, we don't copy from them. We still record where we travel
> via GPS, it's simply a way to work out what needs to be mapped. If using another
> map to work out a route was copyright infringement no map would ever be able to
> be used.
>
> > Maybe using STRM data (or the new elevation data) might
>
> STRM is only good for 90m horizontal per pixel which is just as bad as landsat.
>
> > about natural features (I have seen a huge amount of
> > shapefile if I remember correctly). You may want to look at
> > those to infer what roads could be potentially wrong or not.
> > But I am not sure that approach is what we want to do with
> > OSM.
>
> I don't think you fully understood me, we're not trying to work out from other
> maps what roads don't exist, we are trying to tell mappers that come after us
> that a road they see on a map doesn't exist and don't waste your time trying to
> map non-existing roads.
>
>
>      
>
> _______________________________________________
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk@...
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

     

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[Emilie Laffray]

2009/8/12 John Smith <delta_foxtrot@...>

I don't think you fully understood me, we're not trying to work out from other maps what roads don't exist, we are trying to tell mappers that come after us that a road they see on a map doesn't exist and don't waste your time trying to map non-existing roads.

I think I do now. As Vincent stated, I don't believe that OSM should contain non existent roads that are actually way to identify copyrighted data; that would be imported that said copyrighted data in OSM.
You may want to use OpenStreetBugs or develop an alternate repository for OSM marking those roads and putting them as a layer in a website with the OSM data. That way you wouldn't mess with copyrighted data in OSM.
I don't think there are tools to solve your problems, as your problem is quite rare compared to denser areas like Europe. People with good mapping coverage and low density might end up having the same trouble as you, so you may want to look at building that tool and/or trying to get people to build it for you.
Regarding the STRM data, you are correct, but the new data from NASA is actually better even if we cannot import it. It would be good for you to test some scenarios.


Emilie Laffray

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[John Smith-129]

--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Shaun McDonald <shaun@...> wrote:

> Draw a way and add note=there is a non-existant road on xxx
> maps?

The concern with doing this is we could be acused of copying another map, but since we actually sight it and see it doesn't exist a stub might be sufficient
 
> It will mean looking at the data rather than the map.

Not really, if people see a blank on OSM but see a road on another map they might feel the urge to map the road that doesn't exist, that's what we're trying to achieve here, limit the amount of times people visit non-existent roads simply because there was no note on the map so they will assume it just hasn't been mapped.


     

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[Tobias Knerr]

John Smith wrote:
> The problem is people noticing non-existant streets on other maps and wasting time to only find out that it doesn't exist, not that it wasn't mapped.

Probably *something* is there in reality. Buildings, walls, hedges, a
park ...? Map these objects (which obviously aren't copyrighted), so
people know that someone has visited the area and mapped it in detail.
If there is no blank space, it will probably attract less mappers.

Tobias Knerr

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[John Smith-129]

--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Tobias Knerr <osm@...> wrote:
> Probably *something* is there in reality. Buildings, walls,
> hedges, a
> park ...? Map these objects (which obviously aren't
> copyrighted), so
> people know that someone has visited the area and mapped it
> in detail.
> If there is no blank space, it will probably attract less
> mappers.

One such road went into someone's car port, I don't think we have barrier=car_port :)


     

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[John Smith-129]

--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Emilie Laffray <emilie.laffray@...> wrote:
> I think I do now. As Vincent stated, I don't believe
> that OSM should contain non existent roads that are actually
> way to identify copyrighted data; that would be imported
> that said copyrighted data in OSM.

We're not trying to put copyrighted information in the database, we're recording an observation, no different then recording the name on a street sign, since we actually go out and see it, the only question is how to make it as easy as possible for others to know this too.


     

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[John Smith-129]

--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Chris Hill <chillly809@...> wrote:

> Write a Wiki page showing the
> progress of the area.  You can make comments there.

It needs to be spatially recorded, there is literally 100s of non-existing roads within 50km of here, Australia is 7.7 mill sq km...


     

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[OJ W]

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, John Smith<delta_foxtrot@...> wrote:
>
> I tried to search the list archives before posting but couldn't see anything about this.
>
> The problem is people noticing non-existant streets on other maps and wasting time to only find out that it doesn't exist, not that it wasn't mapped.


Draw a bounding box around it and mark it as "all roads complete in OSM"?

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[John Smith-129]

--- On Wed, 12/8/09, OJ W <ojwlists@...> wrote:
> Draw a bounding box around it and mark it as "all roads
> complete in OSM"?

What about drawing an area in the approx area that the road is supposed to be?

If you put it across a larger area that complicates things when new roads are built in the area. They are building a number of new housing developments in the area, I've mapped some as under construction waiting for them to open properly.


     

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[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/8/12 Elizabeth Dodd <edodd@...>:
> except on paper. the road reserve may exist but it could be completely
> overgrown with trees, or be impassable with natural features - a cliff, a
> water feature

you could map this as track and tracktype=grade5, or invent a tag for
even more overgrown remnants. By this you can have the information on
the OSM-Map, that there once was a road which is now only the road
reserve.

> and its even more annoying to be caught the next time.

s.above

> we are considering marking roads as impassable, having a "barrier" to their
> use or similar markers which may not ever be rendered but would mark the
> problem in the database

yes, don't mark them as normal roads if they are in a degraded state.

cheers,
Martin

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