Not quite getting it.

[Huw Collingbourne-2]

Roger Alsing wrote:
> in a typed language with decent intellisense I can see what types Im
> supposed to pass in and what I get back.

You can still have decent IntelliSense with Ruby. Take a look ;-)

http://www.sapphiresteel.com/

best wishes
Huw

SapphireSteel Software
Ruby and Rails In Visual Studio
http://www.sapphiresteel.com
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

[Roger Alsing]

> The type checking in the popular strongly typed languages like Java
> and C++ are actually quite weak in uncovering incorrect code.

Yes absolutely, static typed languages have a problem finding logical
flaws at compiletime.
But so does Ruby since it doesnt even have compiletime.
So thats a non argument.

If C# cant find logical problems at compile time and
Ruby cant fint logical flaws at compile time either (due to lack of
such)

And you will find the problem at runtime in C#, and likewise in Ruby.

How does that make C# worse than Ruby in that aspect?

> They are really about imposing constraints so that code isn't run
> against the wrong data at run-time.  Such constraints are necessary in
> languages whose implementations determine which method  to run by a
> type determined at compile time, rather than by using self-describing
> runtime information to do method dispatching.

I will still argue that a method name alone is not self-describing.
It will only describe signature but not semantics.
(while I do argue that interfaces carry semantics with them, and that
you have to willingly break that semantics if you implement an interface
method incorrectly)

> Many errors aren't found at compile time in these languages, for
> example, array bounds errors.  It's very hard to design a static type
> system which detects the error in
>
> function foo(array a, int i)
>     array[i]
> end
>
> ary = new Array(10)
> foo(ary, 12)
>
> There are certainly less popular languages which attempt this, but
> they aren't widely used.  Some consider arrays with different bounds
> to be of different types, but this makes it hard to write lots of
> things.  Others do type inferencing, but these tend to be hard for
> mere mortals to understand, at least the ones I've seen so far.
>
> So languages like Java, despite being statically typed, defer array
> bounds checking to run-time.

Yes, and Ruby still does runtime checks for everything, so it is still a
non argument.

You are comparing the compile time checks of static languages alone to
the runtime checks of Ruby.
Thats not how it works, static languages have compile time AND runtime
checks.

(And I'm confident that you know that there are list types in other
languages if we need expansion)


> As for run-away errors being hard to debug, that's true, but from
> practical experience these tend to be much worse in statically typed
> languages where the compiler got fooled by a typecast, or a pointer
> alias bug, and branched through a non-existent or wrong virtual
> function table, or did a fetch or store outside of the bounds of the
> object because it got the type wrong.

Well that's a bit of a stretch.
You are taking the worst of c and c++ and making it look like its a
major problem in all static typed languages.
(Yes C# have pointers if you like, but they are used once in a lifetime
for most people there)


> If your concern is correctness, which it should be, then it's best to
> use best practices for writing in dynamic languages, such as TDD/BDD
> rather than attempting to mimic techniques from statically typed
> languages which are really there to cover the class of errors caused
> by a statically typed implementation.

So you are saying that just because you do TDD you do not apply argument
validation in your API?

Argument validation have nothing to do with static typing, it has to do
with good practice and preventing the consumers of your API from
screwing up badly.

I do practice TDD, but that doesnt make me assume that every consumer of
my code will also do TDD.

--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

[Roger Alsing]

Also, I'm not here to run a war about static VS dynamic typing.
I do know how both works.

What I was asking was how you were dealing with the potential problems
associated with dynamic typing.

And replying with exaggerations and metaphors to 6 y/o olds isn't
exactly answering the questions in a constructive way, rather making you
look like you are defensive when someone is questioning the sanity of
what you do..
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

[Phillip Gawlowski]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Roger Alsing wrote:
| Also, I'm not here to run a war about static VS dynamic typing.
| I do know how both works.
|
| What I was asking was how you were dealing with the potential problems
| associated with dynamic typing.

In a sane way: Once the potential gets realized, the code gets adjusted.

Or do you guard against XSS when your application isn't supposed to be
on the web right now, or when the issue actually arises?

How this adjustment is *done* depends on the code in question.

- --
Phillip Gawlowski
Twitter: twitter.com/cynicalryan
Blog: http://justarubyist.blogspot.com

~   The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure
reasoning, and
inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
impenetrable fog!  -- Calvin
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkgwgnkACgkQbtAgaoJTgL/8sQCfZNTWQQmjTCEOPXHqZuAr3IWm
6aIAoJuLlGZW5GDn3QSEa2S0W7zsOK51
=FNd9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Roger Alsing]

> In a sane way: Once the potential gets realized, the code gets adjusted.
>
> Or do you guard against XSS when your application isn't supposed to be

Absolutely, I'm all with you on that one.

BUT:

The chance that others than yourself will be interacting with your code
is fairly big if you do anything else than hobby coding for your self.

Thus, preventing others from messing up is good practice in pretty much
every case.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

[nefigah]

I'm not sure what to say beyond what has been said.

Lots of people are able to deal with duck typing without particularly
finding it harmful. If you are starting a Ruby project that is going to
require multiple people working with your code, then they are going to
be used to this style of coding anyway; they won't have a problem with
it. They know about documentation. They know about unit tests. These are
things that you are probably doing in your compile-time-type-checked
languages anyway; you aren't losing a bunch of time with that.

Do you lose some safety? Sure. Is it within an acceptable margin for the
benefit in agility? Many people think so.

I think the overall point people have been trying to make, is please
don't go trying to check all of your types all of the time, via is_a? or
kind_of? checks all over the place (i.e. don't write Ruby like C#). If
it bugs you that much, well, the other languages with type checking
exist for a reason!

Again, it's really a matter of trying it. If you find yourself getting
bitten by it, don't use it. And yes, weigh this before starting some
sort of gigantic expensive project.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

[Phillip Gawlowski]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Roger Alsing wrote:
|> In a sane way: Once the potential gets realized, the code gets adjusted.
|>
|> Or do you guard against XSS when your application isn't supposed to be
|
| Absolutely, I'm all with you on that one.
|
| BUT:
|
| The chance that others than yourself will be interacting with your code
| is fairly big if you do anything else than hobby coding for your self.

Call me naive, but I think that developers are able to read
documentation, unit-tests and example code.

| Thus, preventing others from messing up is good practice in pretty much
| every case.

Oh no, I cannot anticipate every kind of error somebody might make, nor
every environment my code's being used. If it is a genuine bug or
misbehaving feature, I accept patches (or fix it myself).

While some sanity checks on data are certainly a Good Thing, going over
board doesn't help.

I mean: feeding hpricot something else than HTML or XML isn't hpricot's
problem, but the *users* problem. Of course hpricot should be so
courteous to throw an exception if it gets data it cannot process.

- --
Phillip Gawlowski
Twitter: twitter.com/cynicalryan
Blog: http://justarubyist.blogspot.com

~ - You know you've been hacking too long when...
...you want to wash your hair and think:  awk -F"/neck" '{ print $1 }' |
shower
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkgxIrwACgkQbtAgaoJTgL+HDQCgi3G5TVmAkIyibwVdfhCH587g
sWMAnjZEm7xuk0ZkbsVhB8hKPeIHbGBj
=OQqz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Paddy3118]

On 16 May, 19:45, Roger Alsing <roger.als...@...> wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm trying to get whats Ruby is all about.
> I've been doing .NET since beta so I'm kind of stuck in the static typed
> mindset.
>
> The parts that I do get:
>
> I love metaprogramming, I was able to make a port of my .NET AOP
> framework that took about 3 months to do in .NET in a week in Ruby (w/o
> ever touching ruby before.. )
>
> I also understand that its nice with auto promotion of number types when
> they would overflow in other languages.
>
> What I don't get:
>
> How do you deal with ducktyping?
> How can anyone assume that just because a method exists that the
> semantics is the same?
>

<<Snip>>
>
> So can someone try to convert me or am I forever lost? :-P
> --
> Posted viahttp://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Two blog posts that might help:
  http://jessenoller.com/2007/05/30/typeducking-on-duck-vs-static-typing/
  http://paddy3118.blogspot.com/2008/05/duck-typing-done-right-is-wrong.html