OBDII Scantools

[Dave Wheeler]

Guys,

I am starting development of a hobby project which will read a vehicle
speed and do some stuff (Alarms for example) the project will eventually be
PIC based but to get an understanding of 'real' things going on I am
trying to find a Scantool to help. There are lots of ELM327 clones
available from China but
my research has helped me in deciding to keep clear of them. Other tools
available in the UK vary in price (dramatically) and although my time
for this application is
free, I still don't want to waste a lot of time with inferior hardware.
The ELM327 (V1.3a) based tools seem to be entry level and only
upgradable by chip change, there
seems to be some 'compatible' tools that are flash based and easy to
upgrade (generally free).
The Elmscan5 seems like a good contender but the UK prices from
distributors is high compared to direct, obviously the direct route may
attract some import duty and the
dreaded VAT.
Any suggestions, recommendation's or 'keep well clear of's'   will be
greatly received  

Cheers
Dave (G0GMK)
g0gmk at btinternet dot com
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[Vitaliy-14]

Dave Wheeler wrote:

> I am starting development of a hobby project which will read a vehicle
> speed and do some stuff (Alarms for example) the project will eventually
> be
> PIC based but to get an understanding of 'real' things going on I am
> trying to find a Scantool to help. There are lots of ELM327 clones
> available from China but
> my research has helped me in deciding to keep clear of them. Other tools
> available in the UK vary in price (dramatically) and although my time
> for this application is free, I still don't want to waste a lot of time
> with inferior hardware.

Good idea. The problem with Chinese clones is not in that they don't ever
work; the problem is that you never know what you're going to get. Some
units work perfectly, some work marginally, some work on one protocol but
not the others, some don't bother powering up and some power up and catch
fire. I'm not exaggerating:

http://forums.fluxmedia.net/obd-ii-auto-diagnostics/6982-dealexteme-obd-usb-thoughts.html#post51292


> The ELM327 (V1.3a) based tools seem to be entry level and only
> upgradable by chip change, there
> seems to be some 'compatible' tools that are flash based and easy to
> upgrade (generally free).

The only devices with a bootloader that I'm aware of, are OBDPros and
OBDLink (www.obdlink.com).

In my recent post, I alluded to the fact that ScanTool.net LLC is
considering bringing a claim against OBDPros' founder, Jay Shroff. While the
outcome of such situations is never certain, I would definitely consider
this fact when choosing a vendor.


> The Elmscan5 seems like a good contender but the UK prices from
> distributors is high compared to direct, obviously the direct route may
> attract some import duty and the
> dreaded VAT.

My opinion is necessarily subjective, but I would get the OBDLink instead of
the ElmScan 5. One reason is upgradeability, and the fact that any real
problems you encounter will be fixed much quicker than with an ELM327-based
option. We've been selling ELM327 products for over seven years, and I'm
sorry to say that Elm Electronics has been very slow in implementing
customer requested changes, and fixing bugs.

The other reason is cost: Elm Electronics is not at all flexible when it
comes to pricing.


> Any suggestions, recommendation's or 'keep well clear of's'   will be
> greatly received

Take a look at the microOBD module:

http://www.scantool.net/scantool/downloads/44/microOBD-ProductBrief.pdf

It's based on the same firmware as OBDLink, and includes all necessary
drivers. We also have a nice development board that it plugs into, we plan
to post photos and descriptions of both on our website sometime next week.

Another option is to incorporate the STN100x chip into your device. The
downside is that it can sometimes take a while to work out the bugs in the
(deceivingly simple) driver circuitry.

Vitaliy

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[Dave Wheeler]

Thanks for your reply Vitaliy

Vitaliy wrote:

> Dave Wheeler wrote:
>  
>> I am starting development of a hobby project which will read a vehicle
>> speed and do some stuff (Alarms for example) the project will eventually
>> be
>> PIC based but to get an understanding of 'real' things going on I am
>> trying to find a Scantool to help. There are lots of ELM327 clones
>> available from China but
>> my research has helped me in deciding to keep clear of them. Other tools
>> available in the UK vary in price (dramatically) and although my time
>> for this application is free, I still don't want to waste a lot of time
>> with inferior hardware.
>>    
>
> Good idea. The problem with Chinese clones is not in that they don't ever
> work; the problem is that you never know what you're going to get. Some
> units work perfectly, some work marginally, some work on one protocol but
> not the others, some don't bother powering up and some power up and catch
> fire. I'm not exaggerating:
>
> http://forums.fluxmedia.net/obd-ii-auto-diagnostics/6982-dealexteme-obd-usb-thoughts.html#post51292
>  

I had seen similar comments on other forums, I can't see the point in
spending more time getting the tools to work than developing my 'gadget'

>
>  
>> The ELM327 (V1.3a) based tools seem to be entry level and only
>> upgradable by chip change, there
>> seems to be some 'compatible' tools that are flash based and easy to
>> upgrade (generally free).
>>    
>
> The only devices with a bootloader that I'm aware of, are OBDPros and
> OBDLink (www.obdlink.com).
>
> In my recent post, I alluded to the fact that ScanTool.net LLC is
> considering bringing a claim against OBDPros' founder, Jay Shroff. While the
> outcome of such situations is never certain, I would definitely consider
> this fact when choosing a vendor.
>  

I did see this post and have looked at the scantools on their site with
your post in mind :-)

>
>  
>> The Elmscan5 seems like a good contender but the UK prices from
>> distributors is high compared to direct, obviously the direct route may
>> attract some import duty and the
>> dreaded VAT.
>>    
>
> My opinion is necessarily subjective, but I would get the OBDLink instead of
> the ElmScan 5. One reason is upgradeability, and the fact that any real
> problems you encounter will be fixed much quicker than with an ELM327-based
> option. We've been selling ELM327 products for over seven years, and I'm
> sorry to say that Elm Electronics has been very slow in implementing
> customer requested changes, and fixing bugs.
>
> The other reason is cost: Elm Electronics is not at all flexible when it
> comes to pricing.
>  

As I'm only interested in CAN support it looks like an 'out of the box'
solution would be the OBDLink CI which on your site is a similar cost to
the
Elmscan 5, Its a shame there is such a cost difference between the
OBDLink and the OBDLink CI as 'Murphys Law' states that once I start
'playing' I
will wish I had other OBD protocols available :-)

>
>  
>> Any suggestions, recommendation's or 'keep well clear of's'   will be
>> greatly received
>>    
>
> Take a look at the microOBD module:
>
> http://www.scantool.net/scantool/downloads/44/microOBD-ProductBrief.pdf
>
> It's based on the same firmware as OBDLink, and includes all necessary
> drivers. We also have a nice development board that it plugs into, we plan
> to post photos and descriptions of both on our website sometime next week.
>  

Looks nice but by the time I add connectors, cables, RS232 level
converter I guess the cost would be about the same as the OBDLink CI
> Another option is to incorporate the STN100x chip into your device. The
> downside is that it can sometimes take a while to work out the bugs in the
> (deceivingly simple) driver circuitry.
>
> Vitaliy
>  
Going well OT now but do you ship to UK end users  ? If so, any idea of
shipping costs ?

Thanks Again,
Dave
 
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.422 / Virus Database: 270.14.21/2445 - Release Date: 10/19/09 06:40:00
>
>  
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[Pablo Ginhson]

Try with this
http://www.decautomotive.com.ar/

Pablo Ginhson
     
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[Dave Wheeler]

Thanks Pablo,

Looks nice but does much more than I need and I would guess has a price
ticket to match

Thanks Again

Dave


Pablo Ginhson wrote:

> Try with this
> http://www.decautomotive.com.ar/
>
> Pablo Ginhson
>      
> _________________________________________________________________
> Messenger cumple 10 años ¡Descárgate ya los nuevos emoticonos!
> http://www.vivelive.com/felicidades
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.422 / Virus Database: 270.14.23/2447 - Release Date: 10/20/09 03:55:00
>
>  

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[Vitaliy-14]

Dave Wheeler wrote:
> I had seen similar comments on other forums, I can't see the point in
> spending more time getting the tools to work than developing my 'gadget'

I think it happens more often than we all care to admit. On some of our
projects, choosing the right part takes about twice as much time as actually
developing a device based on it.


> As I'm only interested in CAN support it looks like an 'out of the box'
> solution would be the OBDLink CI which on your site is a similar cost to
> the
> Elmscan 5, Its a shame there is such a cost difference between the
> OBDLink and the OBDLink CI as 'Murphys Law' states that once I start
> 'playing' I
> will wish I had other OBD protocols available :-)

Since you're in Europe, it's unlikely. OBDLink CI does not support J1850 VPW
and PWM, which were only used in some pre-2008 GM and Ford vehicles.
ISO9141, ISO14230, and ISO15765 should cover well over 90% of EOBD compliant
cars.

If you decide that you need to upgrade to OBDLink, just drop me a line. If
you make enough progress w/ CI, perhaps we'll just send you OBDLink free of
charge. :-)


>> Take a look at the microOBD module:
>>
>> http://www.scantool.net/scantool/downloads/44/microOBD-ProductBrief.pdf
>
> Looks nice but by the time I add connectors, cables, RS232 level
> converter I guess the cost would be about the same as the OBDLink CI

Sorry, I wasn't sure about the exact nature of your application.


> Going well OT now but do you ship to UK end users  ?

Yes, we ship worldwide -- with the exception of countries on the USDOT's
black list, and Nigeria.


> If so, any idea of
> shipping costs ?

The best way to estimate the shipping costs, is to use the web store:
www.scantool.net. It looks like Priority Mail International to the UK is
$34.75, and EMS is $42.00.

Vitaliy

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[Pablo Ginhson]

OK,
The hardware is developed by me, they are my costumers......
But the key is in the software, I don´t have access to it,
regards

Pablo Ginhson

> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:47:15 +0100
> From: g0gmk@...
> To: piclist@...
> Subject: Re: [EE] OBDII Scantools
>
> Thanks Pablo,
>
> Looks nice but does much more than I need and I would guess has a price
> ticket to match
>
> Thanks Again
>
> Dave
>
>
> Pablo Ginhson wrote:
> > Try with this
> > http://www.decautomotive.com.ar/
> >
> > Pablo Ginhson
> >      
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Messenger cumple 10 años ¡Descárgate ya los nuevos emoticonos!
> > http://www.vivelive.com/felicidades
> >  
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.422 / Virus Database: 270.14.23/2447 - Release Date: 10/20/09 03:55:00
> >
> >  
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[Dave Wheeler]

Hi Pablo,

Thanks for the update, it is the hardware I needed :-)
 From your design, the CAN analyser looks handy, I think I will end up
building a CAN snooper as part of my hobby development.
I have ordered from Scantool (OBDLink CI) as this is more than I need to
experiment (and learn)

Cheers

Dave


Pablo Ginhson wrote:

> OK,
> The hardware is developed by me, they are my costumers......
> But the key is in the software, I don´t have access to it,
> regards
>
> Pablo Ginhson
>
>
>  
>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:47:15 +0100
>> From: g0gmk@...
>> To: piclist@...
>> Subject: Re: [EE] OBDII Scantools
>>
>> Thanks Pablo,
>>
>> Looks nice but does much more than I need and I would guess has a price
>> ticket to match
>>
>> Thanks Again
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> Pablo Ginhson wrote:
>>    
>>> Try with this
>>> http://www.decautomotive.com.ar/
>>>
>>> Pablo Ginhson
>>>      
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Messenger cumple 10 años ¡Descárgate ya los nuevos emoticonos!
>>> http://www.vivelive.com/felicidades
>>>  
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.5.422 / Virus Database: 270.14.23/2447 - Release Date: 10/20/09 03:55:00
>>>
>>>  
>>>      
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
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>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>    
>      
> _________________________________________________________________
> Messenger cumple 10 años ¡Descárgate ya los nuevos emoticonos!
> http://www.vivelive.com/felicidades
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.422 / Virus Database: 270.14.23/2447 - Release Date: 10/20/09 03:55:00
>
>  

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[Pablo Ginhson]

My costumers are DEC Automotive.....

Regards
Pablo

> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:04:13 +0100
> From: g0gmk@...
> To: piclist@...
> Subject: Re: [EE] OBDII Scantools
>
> Hi Pablo,
>
> Thanks for the update, it is the hardware I needed :-)
>  From your design, the CAN analyser looks handy, I think I will end up
> building a CAN snooper as part of my hobby development.
> I have ordered from Scantool (OBDLink CI) as this is more than I need to
> experiment (and learn)
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave
>
>
> Pablo Ginhson wrote:
> > OK,
> > The hardware is developed by me, they are my costumers......
> > But the key is in the software, I don´t have access to it,
> > regards
> >
> > Pablo Ginhson
> >
> >
> >  
> >> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:47:15 +0100
> >> From: g0gmk@...
> >> To: piclist@...
> >> Subject: Re: [EE] OBDII Scantools
> >>
> >> Thanks Pablo,
> >>
> >> Looks nice but does much more than I need and I would guess has a price
> >> ticket to match
> >>
> >> Thanks Again
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>
> >> Pablo Ginhson wrote:
> >>    
> >>> Try with this
> >>> http://www.decautomotive.com.ar/
> >>>
> >>> Pablo Ginhson
> >>>      
> >>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>> Messenger cumple 10 años ¡Descárgate ya los nuevos emoticonos!
> >>> http://www.vivelive.com/felicidades
> >>>  
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 8.5.422 / Virus Database: 270.14.23/2447 - Release Date: 10/20/09 03:55:00
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>      
> >> --
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> >      
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Messenger cumple 10 años ¡Descárgate ya los nuevos emoticonos!
> > http://www.vivelive.com/felicidades
> >  
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.422 / Virus Database: 270.14.23/2447 - Release Date: 10/20/09 03:55:00
> >
> >  
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[M.L.-2]

Vitaliy,
Can you tell me if it is possible to get information about the knock
sensor in my hybrid Honda Civic through an OBD2 scan tool?
Specifically I'd like to know when it detects knocking. It would also
be interesting to know what the engine is doing with timing settings.

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[Pablo Ginhson]

Please, contact Roman
roman@...
He is my costumer, he know the system better than me. ;)

Regards
Pablo Ginhson

> From: m@...
> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:02:39 -0400
> Subject: Re: [EE] OBDII Scantools
> To: piclist@...
>
> Vitaliy,
> Can you tell me if it is possible to get information about the knock
> sensor in my hybrid Honda Civic through an OBD2 scan tool?
> Specifically I'd like to know when it detects knocking. It would also
> be interesting to know what the engine is doing with timing settings.
>
> --
> Martin K.
> --
> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

     
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[M.L.-2]

I was specifically asking Vitaliy, but thanks.
-
Martin

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 6:14 AM, Pablo Ginhson <pginhson@...> wrote:

>
> Please, contact Roman
> roman@...
> He is my costumer, he know the system better than me. ;)
>
> Regards
> Pablo Ginhson
>
>
>> From: m@...
>> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:02:39 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [EE] OBDII Scantools
>> To: piclist@...
>>
>> Vitaliy,
>> Can you tell me if it is possible to get information about the knock
>> sensor in my hybrid Honda Civic through an OBD2 scan tool?
>> Specifically I'd like to know when it detects knocking. It would also
>> be interesting to know what the engine is doing with timing settings.
>>
>> --
>> Martin K.
>> --
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>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Nuevo Windows 7: encuentra el equipo adecuado para ti. Obtén más información.
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[Vitaliy-14]

My apologies for the late reply.


M.L. wrote:
> Can you tell me if it is possible to get information about the knock
> sensor in my hybrid Honda Civic through an OBD2 scan tool?

Unfortunately, you can't directly read the knock sensor through generic
OBDII.


> Specifically I'd like to know when it detects knocking.

Typically the ECU would generate a diagnostic trouble code when this
happens.


> It would also
> be interesting to know what the engine is doing with timing settings.

Now this info *is* available, you can get real-time readings for timing
advance. You can also see what your engine is doing with the fuel trims
(long- and short-term).

Vitaliy

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[Dr Skip]

Vitaliy wrote:

>> Specifically I'd like to know when it detects knocking.
>
> Typically the ECU would generate a diagnostic trouble code when this
> happens.

It's my understanding that it will adjust timing and mixture to correct for
knocking, and only generate a trouble code if it was not able to correct.

-Skip
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[M.L.-2]

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Vitaliy <piclist@...> wrote:

> My apologies for the late reply.
>
>
> M.L. wrote:
>> Can you tell me if it is possible to get information about the knock
>> sensor in my hybrid Honda Civic through an OBD2 scan tool?
>
> Unfortunately, you can't directly read the knock sensor through generic
> OBDII.
>
>
>> Specifically I'd like to know when it detects knocking.
>
> Typically the ECU would generate a diagnostic trouble code when this
> happens.
>
>
>> It would also
>> be interesting to know what the engine is doing with timing settings.
>
> Now this info *is* available, you can get real-time readings for timing
> advance. You can also see what your engine is doing with the fuel trims
> (long- and short-term).
>
> Vitaliy

Thanks. I'll put "buy a scantool from Vitaliy" on my list of projects.
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