OS map copyright expiry dates, FOI request

[mapping]

To legal-talk,

I was trying to think of a way to clarify the situation on copyright
expiry of OS maps. One interpretation is the 50 years copyright starts
when the map was last updated. Another is the copyright clock starts on
the year of the copyright notice. To get an answer, what better way than
to ask ordinance survey themselves? Under the freedom of information, I
asked about a specific example (detailed below).

The response seems to indicate OS's view is the copyright expires 50
after the year of the copyright notice. This is good news as it makes
many maps available for our use. The next question that occurs is can OS
reverse their view or is an FOI binding in some way. (Note the
disclaimer of the email.) Any thoughts from the community on this would
be good...

If my question or their answer was ambiguous, we can always do another
FOI request.

Regards,

TimSC

-----Original Message-----
From: Customer Services
Sent: 14 September 2009 12:05
To: Tim Sheerman-Chase
Subject: RE: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979

Dear Mr Sheerman-Chase

Ordnance Survey reference: 71979

Thank you for your email dated 30 August 2009 requesting: "I have a
sheet that has the following markings: "Made and published by the
Director General of the OS, Chessington, Surrey 1960 Reprinted with
minor changes 1965 Crown copyright (C) 1960""

"Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?"

We are pleased to provide you with the following information with regard
to your request:
The Crown copyright subsisting in a hard copy printed OS map will
subsist from the end of the calendar year in which it was published
until the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar
year in which it was published, meaning 1 January 2011.

Please note that your enquiry has been processed to Freedom of
Information guidelines.  As all requested information has been provided,
we have determined that in all the circumstances of this case the Public
interest consideration (section 17 FOIA) is not applicable in this
instance.

If you are unhappy with our response, you may raise an appeal to our
Appeals Officer at:

Complaints Team
Customer Service Centre
Ordnance Survey
Romsey Road
SOUTHAMPTON
SO16 4GU  

Please include the reference number above. The Appeals Officer will
ensure that the process has been followed correctly, questioning any
decisions taken regarding the original response and recommending
disclosure of additional information if appropriate.

Thank you for your enquiry.

Yours sincerely

Tony Gray

Freedom of Information Pracitioner
Ordnance Survey
Romsey Road, SOUTHAMPTON, United Kingdom, SO16 4GU
Phone: [phone] | Fax: [phone]
www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk  | customerservices@...

Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this
email.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Sheerman-Chase [mailto:**********************]
Sent: 30 August 2009 19:10
To: Customer Services
Subject: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979

FOI Enquiries,

I have a question under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 regarding
the crown copyright of OS map sheets. I have a sheet that has the
following markings:

"Made and published by the Director General of the OS, Chessington,
Surrey 1960
Reprinted with minor changes 1965

Crown copyright (C) 1960"

Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?

Thanks,

Tim Sheerman-Chase
************************************

This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and
may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in
error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be
copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person.

Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the
writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor
can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We
reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Ordnance Survey
Romsey Road
Southampton SO16 4GU
Tel: [phone]
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk


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[Francis Davey-2]

I doubt its binding. Strictly speaking FOI requests are for information not opinions, but its something no-one seems to pay much attention to. There might be an estoppel/legitimate expectation argument but I doubt it.

This is off the top of my head of course.

Francis

2009/9/14 TimSC <mapping@...>

To legal-talk,

I was trying to think of a way to clarify the situation on copyright
expiry of OS maps. One interpretation is the 50 years copyright starts
when the map was last updated. Another is the copyright clock starts on
the year of the copyright notice. To get an answer, what better way than
to ask ordinance survey themselves? Under the freedom of information, I
asked about a specific example (detailed below).

The response seems to indicate OS's view is the copyright expires 50
after the year of the copyright notice. This is good news as it makes
many maps available for our use. The next question that occurs is can OS
reverse their view or is an FOI binding in some way. (Note the
disclaimer of the email.) Any thoughts from the community on this would
be good...

If my question or their answer was ambiguous, we can always do another
FOI request.

Regards,

TimSC

-----Original Message-----
From: Customer Services
Sent: 14 September 2009 12:05
To: Tim Sheerman-Chase
Subject: RE: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979

Dear Mr Sheerman-Chase

Ordnance Survey reference: 71979

Thank you for your email dated 30 August 2009 requesting: "I have a
sheet that has the following markings: "Made and published by the
Director General of the OS, Chessington, Surrey 1960 Reprinted with
minor changes 1965 Crown copyright (C) 1960""

"Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?"

We are pleased to provide you with the following information with regard
to your request:
The Crown copyright subsisting in a hard copy printed OS map will
subsist from the end of the calendar year in which it was published
until the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar
year in which it was published, meaning 1 January 2011.

Please note that your enquiry has been processed to Freedom of
Information guidelines.  As all requested information has been provided,
we have determined that in all the circumstances of this case the Public
interest consideration (section 17 FOIA) is not applicable in this
instance.

If you are unhappy with our response, you may raise an appeal to our
Appeals Officer at:

Complaints Team
Customer Service Centre
Ordnance Survey
Romsey Road
SOUTHAMPTON
SO16 4GU

Please include the reference number above. The Appeals Officer will
ensure that the process has been followed correctly, questioning any
decisions taken regarding the original response and recommending
disclosure of additional information if appropriate.

Thank you for your enquiry.

Yours sincerely

Tony Gray

Freedom of Information Pracitioner
Ordnance Survey
Romsey Road, SOUTHAMPTON, United Kingdom, SO16 4GU
Phone: [phone] | Fax: [phone]
www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk  | customerservices@...

Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this
email.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Sheerman-Chase [mailto:**********************]
Sent: 30 August 2009 19:10
To: Customer Services
Subject: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979

FOI Enquiries,

I have a question under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 regarding
the crown copyright of OS map sheets. I have a sheet that has the
following markings:

"Made and published by the Director General of the OS, Chessington,
Surrey 1960
Reprinted with minor changes 1965

Crown copyright (C) 1960"

Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?

Thanks,

Tim Sheerman-Chase
************************************

This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and
may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in
error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be
copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person.

Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the
writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor
can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We
reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Ordnance Survey
Romsey Road
Southampton SO16 4GU
Tel: [phone]
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk


_______________________________________________
legal-talk mailing list
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http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

--
Francis Davey

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[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

TimSC wrote:
> The next question that occurs is can OS
> reverse their view or is an FOI binding in some way.

I'd say they can probably always backtrack, but they cannot blame you
for taking this answer as face value and start using OOC maps. It is
just five years difference anyway, so if you start using the maps on 1st
January 2011 and they find out in 2012 and ask you to remove your stuff,
you just have to drag the process for a while and you're clear again ;-)

Bye
Frederik


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[Peter Miller-7]

On 15 Sep 2009, at 00:59, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Hi,
>
> TimSC wrote:
>> The next question that occurs is can OS
>> reverse their view or is an FOI binding in some way.
>
> I'd say they can probably always backtrack, but they cannot blame you
> for taking this answer as face value and start using OOC maps. It is
> just five years difference anyway, so if you start using the maps on  
> 1st
> January 2011 and they find out in 2012 and ask you to remove your  
> stuff,
> you just have to drag the process for a while and you're clear  
> again ;-)
>

Can I suggest that you copy your request/response to the Out of  
copyright page in the UK maps section on the wiki so we don't loose  
it. Do also provide a reference back the this thread.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Out-of-copyright_maps

It could also be good to register it with WhatDoTheyKnow although I am  
not sure how one does that.
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/

I agree with TimSC - it would be very hard for them to argue against  
their own advice in court and I think we can safely take their  
response at face-value. Good work!


Regards,



Peter



> Bye
> Frederik
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk@...
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk


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[Ed Avis-2]

Good work!  This must mean that if we see Ordnance Survey maps in secondhand
shops with a copyright date of 1958 or earlier, we should buy them and start
scanning them in.

(I know about the npemaps site; is there some other collection of out-of-
copyright maps to contribute to?)

--
Ed Avis <eda@...>


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[Peter Miller-7]

On 21 Sep 2009, at 10:30, Ed Avis wrote:

> Good work!  This must mean that if we see Ordnance Survey maps in  
> secondhand
> shops with a copyright date of 1958 or earlier, we should buy them  
> and start
> scanning them in.
>
> (I know about the npemaps site; is there some other collection of  
> out-of-
> copyright maps to contribute to?)

Warper is pretty neat. Check it out here:
http://warper.geothings.net/layers

There is a lot of discussion on talk-gb about all this at present -  
focusing in particular on aerial photography but I believe that Warper  
was originally set up for old maps (discussion titled openstreetmap's  
first flight and 'Verticality metre, was: Re: OpenStreetMap's first  
flight!').
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2009-September/thread.html

Fyi, Steve Chiltern already has a complete set of very clean Series 7  
OS inch/mile maps published in the late1950's that have lived in  
vertical hangers in a university all their lives (so there are no  
creases etc). He is starting to digitise them as they come out of  
copyright over the period End 2008 to end 2010.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/7th_Series

Regards,


Peter
>
> --
> Ed Avis <eda@...>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk@...
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk


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[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

I've mad a further FOI request to the OS today seeking clarification with
respect to those OS maps that do not carry a Crown Copyright (c) date. This
is the case with a lot of the First edition 1:25,000 sheets which have a
published date and a separate corrections/changes/additions date. I'm very
much hoping the published date still applies as per the response to TimSC's
request.

It's interesting to note that the OS doesn't regularly go after copyright
infringers in the courts. You would think it would be more often than once
in a blue moon.
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/aboutus/foi/questions/2009/0059.ht
ml

Cheers

Andy

>-----Original Message-----
>From: legal-talk-bounces@... [mailto:legal-talk-
>bounces@...] On Behalf Of TimSC
>Sent: 14 September 2009 8:36 PM
>To: legal-talk@...
>Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] OS map copyright expiry dates, FOI request
>
>
>To legal-talk,
>
>I was trying to think of a way to clarify the situation on copyright
>expiry of OS maps. One interpretation is the 50 years copyright starts
>when the map was last updated. Another is the copyright clock starts on
>the year of the copyright notice. To get an answer, what better way than
>to ask ordinance survey themselves? Under the freedom of information, I
>asked about a specific example (detailed below).
>
>The response seems to indicate OS's view is the copyright expires 50
>after the year of the copyright notice. This is good news as it makes
>many maps available for our use. The next question that occurs is can OS
>reverse their view or is an FOI binding in some way. (Note the
>disclaimer of the email.) Any thoughts from the community on this would
>be good...
>
>If my question or their answer was ambiguous, we can always do another
>FOI request.
>
>Regards,
>
>TimSC
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Customer Services
>Sent: 14 September 2009 12:05
>To: Tim Sheerman-Chase
>Subject: RE: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979
>
>Dear Mr Sheerman-Chase
>
>Ordnance Survey reference: 71979
>
>Thank you for your email dated 30 August 2009 requesting: "I have a
>sheet that has the following markings: "Made and published by the
>Director General of the OS, Chessington, Surrey 1960 Reprinted with
>minor changes 1965 Crown copyright (C) 1960""
>
>"Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
>this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?"
>
>We are pleased to provide you with the following information with regard
>to your request:
>The Crown copyright subsisting in a hard copy printed OS map will
>subsist from the end of the calendar year in which it was published
>until the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar
>year in which it was published, meaning 1 January 2011.
>
>Please note that your enquiry has been processed to Freedom of
>Information guidelines.  As all requested information has been provided,
>we have determined that in all the circumstances of this case the Public
>interest consideration (section 17 FOIA) is not applicable in this
>instance.
>
>If you are unhappy with our response, you may raise an appeal to our
>Appeals Officer at:
>
>Complaints Team
>Customer Service Centre
>Ordnance Survey
>Romsey Road
>SOUTHAMPTON
>SO16 4GU
>
>Please include the reference number above. The Appeals Officer will
>ensure that the process has been followed correctly, questioning any
>decisions taken regarding the original response and recommending
>disclosure of additional information if appropriate.
>
>Thank you for your enquiry.
>
>Yours sincerely
>
>Tony Gray
>
>Freedom of Information Pracitioner
>Ordnance Survey
>Romsey Road, SOUTHAMPTON, United Kingdom, SO16 4GU
>Phone: [phone] | Fax: [phone]
>www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk  | customerservices@...
>
>Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this
>email.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tim Sheerman-Chase [mailto:**********************]
>Sent: 30 August 2009 19:10
>To: Customer Services
>Subject: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979
>
>FOI Enquiries,
>
>I have a question under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 regarding
>the crown copyright of OS map sheets. I have a sheet that has the
>following markings:
>
>"Made and published by the Director General of the OS, Chessington,
>Surrey 1960
>Reprinted with minor changes 1965
>
>Crown copyright (C) 1960"
>
>Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
>this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Tim Sheerman-Chase
>************************************
>
>This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and
>may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in
>error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be
>copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person.
>
>Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the
>writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor
>can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We
>reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice.
>
>Thank you for your cooperation.
>
>Ordnance Survey
>Romsey Road
>Southampton SO16 4GU
>Tel: [phone]
>http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>legal-talk mailing list
>legal-talk@...
>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

_______________________________________________
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[SteveC-2]

On 30 Sep 2009, at 04:50, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:

> I've mad a further FOI request to the OS today seeking clarification  
> with
> respect to those OS maps that do not carry a Crown Copyright (c)  
> date. This
> is the case with a lot of the First edition 1:25,000 sheets which  
> have a
> published date and a separate corrections/changes/additions date.  
> I'm very
> much hoping the published date still applies as per the response to  
> TimSC's
> request.
>
> It's interesting to note that the OS doesn't regularly go after  
> copyright
> infringers in the courts. You would think it would be more often  
> than once
> in a blue moon.

that's what they *want* you to think :-)

> http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/aboutus/foi/questions/2009/0059.ht
> ml
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: legal-talk-bounces@... [mailto:legal-talk-
>> bounces@...] On Behalf Of TimSC
>> Sent: 14 September 2009 8:36 PM
>> To: legal-talk@...
>> Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] OS map copyright expiry dates, FOI request
>>
>>
>> To legal-talk,
>>
>> I was trying to think of a way to clarify the situation on copyright
>> expiry of OS maps. One interpretation is the 50 years copyright  
>> starts
>> when the map was last updated. Another is the copyright clock  
>> starts on
>> the year of the copyright notice. To get an answer, what better way  
>> than
>> to ask ordinance survey themselves? Under the freedom of  
>> information, I
>> asked about a specific example (detailed below).
>>
>> The response seems to indicate OS's view is the copyright expires 50
>> after the year of the copyright notice. This is good news as it makes
>> many maps available for our use. The next question that occurs is  
>> can OS
>> reverse their view or is an FOI binding in some way. (Note the
>> disclaimer of the email.) Any thoughts from the community on this  
>> would
>> be good...
>>
>> If my question or their answer was ambiguous, we can always do  
>> another
>> FOI request.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> TimSC
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Customer Services
>> Sent: 14 September 2009 12:05
>> To: Tim Sheerman-Chase
>> Subject: RE: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979
>>
>> Dear Mr Sheerman-Chase
>>
>> Ordnance Survey reference: 71979
>>
>> Thank you for your email dated 30 August 2009 requesting: "I have a
>> sheet that has the following markings: "Made and published by the
>> Director General of the OS, Chessington, Surrey 1960 Reprinted with
>> minor changes 1965 Crown copyright (C) 1960""
>>
>> "Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
>> this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?"
>>
>> We are pleased to provide you with the following information with  
>> regard
>> to your request:
>> The Crown copyright subsisting in a hard copy printed OS map will
>> subsist from the end of the calendar year in which it was published
>> until the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the calendar
>> year in which it was published, meaning 1 January 2011.
>>
>> Please note that your enquiry has been processed to Freedom of
>> Information guidelines.  As all requested information has been  
>> provided,
>> we have determined that in all the circumstances of this case the  
>> Public
>> interest consideration (section 17 FOIA) is not applicable in this
>> instance.
>>
>> If you are unhappy with our response, you may raise an appeal to our
>> Appeals Officer at:
>>
>> Complaints Team
>> Customer Service Centre
>> Ordnance Survey
>> Romsey Road
>> SOUTHAMPTON
>> SO16 4GU
>>
>> Please include the reference number above. The Appeals Officer will
>> ensure that the process has been followed correctly, questioning any
>> decisions taken regarding the original response and recommending
>> disclosure of additional information if appropriate.
>>
>> Thank you for your enquiry.
>>
>> Yours sincerely
>>
>> Tony Gray
>>
>> Freedom of Information Pracitioner
>> Ordnance Survey
>> Romsey Road, SOUTHAMPTON, United Kingdom, SO16 4GU
>> Phone: [phone] | Fax: [phone]
>> www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk  | customerservices@...
>>
>> Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing  
>> this
>> email.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tim Sheerman-Chase [mailto:**********************]
>> Sent: 30 August 2009 19:10
>> To: Customer Services
>> Subject: Freedom of Information. Reference: SAP 71979
>>
>> FOI Enquiries,
>>
>> I have a question under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 regarding
>> the crown copyright of OS map sheets. I have a sheet that has the
>> following markings:
>>
>> "Made and published by the Director General of the OS, Chessington,
>> Surrey 1960
>> Reprinted with minor changes 1965
>>
>> Crown copyright (C) 1960"
>>
>> Which date is used to calculate when the copyright will lapse? Would
>> this either be either 1st Jan 2011 or 1st Jan 2016 or another date?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Tim Sheerman-Chase
>> ************************************
>>
>> This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed  
>> and
>> may contain confidential information. If you have received this  
>> email in
>> error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must  
>> not be
>> copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person.
>>
>> Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to  
>> the
>> writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor
>> can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We
>> reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior  
>> notice.
>>
>> Thank you for your cooperation.
>>
>> Ordnance Survey
>> Romsey Road
>> Southampton SO16 4GU
>> Tel: [phone]
>> http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> legal-talk mailing list
>> legal-talk@...
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk@...
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>

Yours &c.

Steve


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