Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

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	Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Kaisa S :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message I have tried to find an answer to this question without sucess - Is there a Octave workshop or other solution that make my octave 3.0.0 for Windows at least look slightly like MatLab ( it is currently running in a DOS-style window and I find it hard to read with the white text on black). Or should I install an older version of Octave ( an if so which one and together with which Octave workshop version?). Kaisa former matLab user trying to get the hang on Octave
	Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by John W. Eaton :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On 28-Mar-2008, Kaisa S wrote: \| \| I have tried to find an answer to this question without sucess - Is there a \| Octave workshop or other solution that make my octave 3.0.0 for Windows at \| least look slightly like MatLab ( it is currently running in a DOS-style \| window and I find it hard to read with the white text on black). You should be able to change the font and colors. Perhaps a Windows user of Octave will be able to help you with the details of just how to do that. Other than the font and color scheme, what is so different about typing commands at the Octave prompt compared to typing commands at the Matlab prompt, except that the Matlab command window has a lot of other goop surrounding it? Or do you not type at the Matlab prompt in the Matlab command window when you use Matlab? If you don't type commands at the Matlab prompt, then how do you get anything done? It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it provides that is so essential. I have also seen people saying how happy they are to have QtOctave, and the last time I looked, that actually prevents you from typing at the Octave prompt and forces you to type in a small text box that takes full command line history and editing away from you[]. In that sense, it provides less* than the normal "DOS-style" window. Is it just that having a window surrounded by "File" and "Edit" buttons is comforting? Please don't take these comments the wrong way. I'm seriously trying to understand what it is that makes the Matlab GUI so essential to so many users. Perhaps it is only a few small features that would not be so hard to add to Octave. \| Or should I \| install an older version of Octave ( an if so which one and together with \| which Octave workshop version?). Why would you want to use Octave Workshop, since it is apparently no longer maintained and, as I understand it, was never fully functional anyway? jwe [*] Though it just occurred to me that this is the way some instant messaging clients work, so maybe this style of interaction seems normal to people who have grown up with IM clients? _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Olafur Jens Sigurdsson-3 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 07:43:49AM -0700, Kaisa S wrote: > > I have tried to find an answer to this question without sucess - Is there a > Octave workshop or other solution that make my octave 3.0.0 for Windows at > least look slightly like MatLab ( it is currently running in a DOS-style > window and I find it hard to read with the white text on black). Or should I > install an older version of Octave ( an if so which one and together with > which Octave workshop version?). Hi Kaisa, I dont use windows or GUI for octave but have a look at this page and try out the programs mentioned in items 1.4 and 1.5 http://wiki.octave.org/wiki.pl?OctaveForWindows HTH Oli _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Søren Hauberg :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message fre, 28 03 2008 kl. 13:37 -0400, skrev John W. Eaton: > Other than the font and color scheme, what is so different about > typing commands at the Octave prompt compared to typing commands at > the Matlab prompt, except that the Matlab command window has a lot of > other goop surrounding it? Or do you not type at the Matlab prompt in > the Matlab command window when you use Matlab? If you don't type > commands at the Matlab prompt, then how do you get anything done? > > It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave > doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface > is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it > provides that is so essential. Whenever I'm forced to use Matlab, the first thing I do is to disable the GUI. It's unstable, slow, and takes up way too much screen space. That being said, I see a couple of nice features in the GUI: 1) When you view the help text of a function, Matlab underlines the functions in the see-also-list. The functions listed can then be clicked on with the mouse, and their help text is shown. This sometimes (not often, though) makes it faster to find the function you're looking for. 2) The Matlab documentation browser is much nicer than the Gnu Info browser. Personally, I mostly use the Octave-Forge web pages when reading documentation, because I think it's a much nicer solution than the Info browser. 3) The graphical debugger in the editor looks kinda nice. I've never used it, but a friend of mine just loves it. But the general interface is very similar to the Octave interface. If Octave ever gets a GUI, I would hope it would be more inspired by the Maple interface. Back in ye olde days, when I used Maple, I really found it helpful. It's much better for repeating (or correcting) multi-line input. Søren _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Moritz Borgmann-2 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message >It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave >doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface >is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it >provides that is so essential. looking at what engineers and scientists around me use in terms of Matlab GUI, in approximately decreasing order of importance: - the "visual debugger" (i.e., with a little arrow next to the current source line, go/stop/step buttons and all that stuff) - the workspace pane, which gives quick & easy overview over the current variables, their dimensions, etc. (especially useful in combination with debugger) - command history pane - the profiler, which is really nice in recent Matlabs (even though Octave doesn't have one, so it's not relevant for the GUI discussion) - the editor, although there's really no need to since there's so many other good editors around. I personally tend to use the command-line version whenever possible, but I do understand people who find above features useful and hence stick with the GUI. At 13:37 Uhr -0400 2008-03-28, John W. Eaton wrote: >Please don't take these comments the wrong way. I'm seriously trying >to understand what it is that makes the Matlab GUI so essential to so >many users. Perhaps it is only a few small features that would not be >so hard to add to Octave. I don't think Octave should do much in the way of GUI, simply provide good hooks for 3rd-party IDE apps to support the features that people are used to in the Matlab GUI. -M _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by John W. Eaton :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On 28-Mar-2008, Moritz Borgmann wrote: \| I don't think Octave should do much in the way of GUI, simply provide \| good hooks for 3rd-party IDE apps to support the features that people \| are used to in the Matlab GUI. As far as I can tell, that's difficult to do since Octave wants control of the event loop in order to handle command-line input properly (i.e., without having the GUI reinvent readline). But maybe you have some ideas about how it can be designed so that the GUI can be in complete control of all events and Octave can still function properly? jwe _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Jonathan Stickel-5 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On 3/28/08 help-octave-request@... wrote: > Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:11:26 +0100 > From: S?ren Hauberg <soren@...> > Subject: Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp > To: "John W. Eaton" <jwe@...> > Cc: help-octave@... > Message-ID: <1206731486.5948.31.camel@sh-laptop> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 > > fre, 28 03 2008 kl. 13:37 -0400, skrev John W. Eaton: >> > Other than the font and color scheme, what is so different about >> > typing commands at the Octave prompt compared to typing commands at >> > the Matlab prompt, except that the Matlab command window has a lot of >> > other goop surrounding it? Or do you not type at the Matlab prompt in >> > the Matlab command window when you use Matlab? If you don't type >> > commands at the Matlab prompt, then how do you get anything done? >> > >> > It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave >> > doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface >> > is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it >> > provides that is so essential. > Whenever I'm forced to use Matlab, the first thing I do is to disable > the GUI. It's unstable, slow, and takes up way too much screen space. > That being said, I see a couple of nice features in the GUI: > > 1) When you view the help text of a function, Matlab underlines the > functions in the see-also-list. The functions listed can then be clicked > on with the mouse, and their help text is shown. This sometimes (not > often, though) makes it faster to find the function you're looking for. > > 2) The Matlab documentation browser is much nicer than the Gnu Info > browser. Personally, I mostly use the Octave-Forge web pages when > reading documentation, because I think it's a much nicer solution than > the Info browser. > > 3) The graphical debugger in the editor looks kinda nice. I've never > used it, but a friend of mine just loves it. > > But the general interface is very similar to the Octave interface. If > Octave ever gets a GUI, I would hope it would be more inspired by the > Maple interface. Back in ye olde days, when I used Maple, I really found > it helpful. It's much better for repeating (or correcting) multi-line > input. > Back when I used Matlab, I remember using the variable space window and the previous command window. Of course these are easily accessible in Octave with "whos -v" and "history -q N", but I found it nice to always have that information directly in front of me without typing a command. I think some people also like that the Matlab figures can be edited with the mouse-clicks and pull-down menus. Jonathan _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Moritz Borgmann-2 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message At 15:31 Uhr -0400 2008-03-28, John W. Eaton wrote: >On 28-Mar-2008, Moritz Borgmann wrote: > >\| I don't think Octave should do much in the way of GUI, simply provide >\| good hooks for 3rd-party IDE apps to support the features that people >\| are used to in the Matlab GUI. > >As far as I can tell, that's difficult to do since Octave wants >control of the event loop in order to handle command-line input >properly (i.e., without having the GUI reinvent readline). But maybe >you have some ideas about how it can be designed so that the GUI can >be in complete control of all events and Octave can still function >properly? I'm not an expert at all in these matters, so please take my statements with caution. I wasn't actually alluding so much to the handling of the command-line input. I guess it would indeed by hard to have a GUI on top of Octave, but still have Octave handle all command-line editing including readline. But is that a problem? I mean, doesn't the GUI simply have to include decent readline support by itself and it's done? What I also meant was hooks for debugger and profiler. I don't know how complete debugger support is, profiler is not implemented. Ryan Rusaw has, as part of the Octclipse project, implemented a) a console proxy that allows IDEs to attach to Octave via sockets, and b) a wrapper that implements the DBGP (Common Debugger Protocol) on top of Octave; again, IDEs can attach to this standardized interface. I'm not too familiar with the technicalities, but this sort of stuff looks interesting in my eyes and may fall under the category "good hooks", possibly applicable beyond the Octclipse project. Broadly speaking, once one supports simple and standardized interfaces, there may be a whole ecosystem of (GUI) tools available to interact with Octave that weren't necessarily made for that. Another example would be profiling: it could make sense to write out profiler data in, e.g., callgrind format. Then a whole slew of options for display and analysis, far more powerful than the Matlab profiler, would become available, like Kcachegrind. I'm cross-posting to maintainers since this is turning into a development-related discussion. -M _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by John W. Eaton :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On 28-Mar-2008, Jonathan Stickel wrote: \| I think some people also like that the Matlab figures can be edited with \| the mouse-clicks and pull-down menus. I see that as a separate issue, and something that is already being addressed apart from a GUI interface for Octave itself. jwe _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by DigitalPig-3 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Kaisa S <ks@...> writes: > I have tried to find an answer to this question without sucess - Is there a > Octave workshop or other solution that make my octave 3.0.0 for Windows at > least look slightly like MatLab ( it is currently running in a DOS-style > window and I find it hard to read with the white text on black). Or should I > install an older version of Octave ( an if so which one and together with > which Octave workshop version?). > > Kaisa > former matLab user trying to get the hang on Octave :-) Hi. First of all, I didn't use octave by GUI. However, I think you can use google to search for "gui octave" keywords to find if there is anything fit for your need. And one more thing to mention is Emacs has its own octave-mode, which can highlight keywords and do debugging. Hope it help. -- DigitalPig E-mail: digitalpiglee AT gmail DOT com ALL WE SEEN IS ILLUSION. _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Francesco Potortì :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message >It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave >doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface >is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it >provides that is so essential. > >I have also seen people saying how happy they are to have QtOctave, >and the last time I looked, that actually prevents you from typing at >the Octave prompt and forces you to type in a small text box that >takes full command line history and editing away from you[]. In that >sense, it provides less* than the normal "DOS-style" window. Is it >just that having a window surrounded by "File" and "Edit" buttons is >comforting? I'll try to answer something of this. I was in the past a power Mac and Windows user. I am no more, as I use almost exclusively Gnome now, but I still regularly happen to use Mac and Windows. Notice that I never installed nor used Octave on Mac or Windows, and I used Matlab on Windows (or was it DOS?) about fifteen years ago, but it seems that I can understand some things that others do not on this list, so I'll give it a try. The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used in practice by a normal user. When a Windows user installs a program and sees a command line window, the first thought is «something has gone wrong». Then research on the net about what has gone wrong. Then realisation that the command line interface is normal, at least for those who know what "command line interface" means: the others must first learn that, to their astonishment, that in this millennium there are still programs working like that. Then the impulse to uninstall everything and look for something more user friendly. The idea of typing "help" at the prompt is simply out of scope. The idea of typing "2+2 RET" is not considered: they never did anything like that before. When Windows users install a program, they expect to see at the very least some menu items with File/open, File/save, File/quit, and Help/Demo, Help/Manual, Help/search, and possibly a windows popping up with some suggestions. More generally, people do not expect to have to write or memorise things, but to choose items from a menu. For example, having a menu with a list of available functions that just get written to the prompt when chosen, with empty arguments, useless as it may be, would make a Windows user feel at home and concentrate more on learning the program than on how much this interface is different from everything else in the world. -- Francesco Potortì (ricercatore) Voice: +39 050 315 3058 (op.2111) ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR Fax: +39 050 315 2040 via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa Email: Potorti@... Web: http://fly.isti.cnr.it/ Key: fly.isti.cnr.it/public.key _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by dastew :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Francesco Potorti` wrote: >> It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave >> doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface >> is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it >> provides that is so essential. >> >> I have also seen people saying how happy they are to have QtOctave, >> and the last time I looked, that actually prevents you from typing at >> the Octave prompt and forces you to type in a small text box that >> takes full command line history and editing away from you[]. In that >> sense, it provides less* than the normal "DOS-style" window. Is it >> just that having a window surrounded by "File" and "Edit" buttons is >> comforting? >> > > I'll try to answer something of this. I was in the past a power Mac and > Windows user. I am no more, as I use almost exclusively Gnome now, but > I still regularly happen to use Mac and Windows. Notice that I never > installed nor used Octave on Mac or Windows, and I used Matlab on > Windows (or was it DOS?) about fifteen years ago, but it seems that I > can understand some things that others do not on this list, so I'll give > it a try. > > The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is > not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming > more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more > important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is > accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac > and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used > in practice by a normal user. > > When a Windows user installs a program and sees a command line window, > the first thought is «something has gone wrong». Then research on the > net about what has gone wrong. Then realisation that the command line > interface is normal, at least for those who know what "command line > interface" means: the others must first learn that, to their > astonishment, that in this millennium there are still programs working > like that. Then the impulse to uninstall everything and look for > something more user friendly. The idea of typing "help" at the prompt > is simply out of scope. The idea of typing "2+2 RET" is not considered: > they never did anything like that before. > > When Windows users install a program, they expect to see at the very > least some menu items with File/open, File/save, File/quit, and > Help/Demo, Help/Manual, Help/search, and possibly a windows popping up > with some suggestions. More generally, people do not expect to have > to write or memorise things, but to choose items from a menu. For > example, having a menu with a list of available functions that just get > written to the prompt when chosen, with empty arguments, useless as it > may be, would make a Windows user feel at home and concentrate more on > learning the program than on how much this interface is different from > everything else in the world. > > I had my students use qtoctave this year, and it was a success! The "feature" that -- that actually prevents you from typing at the Octave prompt and forces you to type in a small text box that takes full command line history and editing away from you[*]. is not an problem because they want what they type in a file anyway so that they have a record of what they did and can take it home and continue there, etc. I insist that all work is done in a file, because we teach them traceability and record keeping, etc. Very seldom do they ever do a one-liner and if they do then the one line prompt is OK. I like qtoctave and will continue to use it in the class room with windows students. (I am now a ubuntu user at home!!!) _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by A. Kalten :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:58:21 +0100 Francesco Potorti` <Potorti@...> wrote: > > The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is > not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming > more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more > important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is > accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac > and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used > in practice by a normal user. > The main problem is that software like Octave requires a comparatively sophisticated computer user and not one that always insists on the "crutch" of a graphical interface. Advanced mathematical computation, which is what Octave is all about, depends on a prior knowledge of many things. The user must understand the difference between floating point and integer representation, round-off error, and the discrete nature of numerical algorithms. A package like Octave cannot be used intelligently without a sufficient background in these, and many other, basic digital principles. Those who are unfamiliar with the command-line interface are most likely unfamiliar with the digital concepts of mathematics as well, and, I am not sorry to say, they have no business using Octave. If a student finds the command line to be an impossible environment the fault is certainly that of his university or college. A course in basic computer science, as well as in numerical methods, should be prerequisites for the use of octave in the classroom. This may appear unnecessarily harsh, but a strong background in computation will help any student tremendously later in his life no matter what the career. Let us not forget the KISS idea: Keep It Simple ******. Why should octave developers waste time and effort perfecting a graphical interface that will only benefit the unprepared dilettante or dabbler? The competent mathematician or scientist will certainly appreciate the efforts of Open Source software and it is toward this group that Octave should be primarily directed. AK _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by A. Kalten :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:58:21 +0100 Francesco Potorti` <Potorti@...> wrote: > > The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is > not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming > more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more > important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is > accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac > and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used > in practice by a normal user. > The main problem is that software like Octave requires a comparatively sophisticated computer user and not one that always insists on the "crutch" of a graphical interface. Advanced mathematical computation, which is what Octave is all about, depends on a prior knowledge of many things. The user must understand the difference between floating point and integer representation, round-off error, and the discrete nature of numerical algorithms. A package like Octave cannot be used intelligently without a sufficient background in these, and many other, basic digital principles. Those who are unfamiliar with the command-line interface are most likely unfamiliar with the digital concepts of mathematics as well, and, I am not sorry to say, they have no business using Octave. If a student finds the command line to be an impossible environment the fault is certainly that of his university or college. A course in basic computer science, as well as in numerical methods, should be prerequisites for the use of octave in the classroom. This may appear unnecessarily harsh, but a strong background in computation will help any student tremendously later in his life no matter what the career. Let us not forget the KISS idea: Keep It Simple ******. Why should octave developers waste time and effort perfecting a graphical interface that will only benefit the unprepared dilettante or dabbler? The competent mathematician or scientist will certainly appreciate the efforts of Open Source software and it is toward this group that Octave should be primarily directed. AK _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by dastew :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message A. Kalten wrote: > On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:58:21 +0100 > Francesco Potorti` <Potorti@...> wrote: > > >> The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is >> not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming >> more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more >> important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is >> accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac >> and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used >> in practice by a normal user. >> >> > > The main problem is that software like Octave requires a comparatively > sophisticated computer user and not one that always insists on the > "crutch" > of a graphical interface. > I disagree > Advanced mathematical computation, which is what Octave is all about, > depends on a prior knowledge of many things. The user must understand > the difference between floating point and integer representation, > yes > round-off error, and the discrete nature of numerical algorithms. > A package like Octave cannot be used intelligently without a sufficient > background in these, and many other, basic digital principles. > absolutely agree > Those who are unfamiliar with the command-line interface are most likely > unfamiliar with the digital concepts of mathematics as well, and, > I am not sorry to say, they have no business using Octave. > absolutely disagree > If a student finds the command line to be an impossible environment > the fault is certainly that of his university or college. disagree > A course > in basic computer science, as well as in numerical methods, should > be prerequisites for the use of octave in the classroom. disagree > This > may appear unnecessarily harsh, but a strong background in computation > will help any student tremendously later in his life no matter what > the career. > absolutely agree > Let us not forget the KISS idea: Keep It Simple ******. Why > should octave developers waste time and effort perfecting a > graphical interface that will only benefit the unprepared dilettante > or dabbler? The competent mathematician or scientist will certainly > appreciate the efforts of Open Source software and it is toward this > group that Octave should be primarily directed. > disagree > AK > DAS _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On 29/03/2008, Francesco Potorti` <Potorti@...> wrote: > When a Windows user installs a program and sees a command line window, > the first thought is «something has gone wrong». Until computers develop some sort of neural interface and can understand my intent perfectly and without error, the command line is not going to go away. It has flexibility and power that no GUI ever will have. It's more efficient to communicate certain things to the computer using ten fingers than only your wrist and an index finger. Mac OS X has its terminal, and the recent shift from ksh or tcsh to bash shows that Apple cares at least a little about the quality of the shell they use. Even Windows Vista is seeing a shell revival with its Windows Live Power Shell XP Professional Business Edition or whatever the marketable term is. I personally do think that a GNU system has the friendliest shell of all, and that the default appearance of konsole on KDE or a Gnome terminal is miles ahead of the ugly characters and colours of the "DOS-like" shell in Windows. Perhaps this is part of the reason of why we Unix-like users don't find a shell such a scary experience. The shell is going to be around for the foreseeable future, and people with the mathematical sophistication to understand numerical analysis can understand how to use a shell, and they should use it in order to speed up their computer interaction. - Jordi G. H. _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Tatsuro MATSUOKA-2 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Hello I'm using the Octave for nummerical analysys lecture at the University. What's is important is detaied introduction of the usage. There wre no troubles which caeme from the octave did not have a GUI. By the conbination the suitable text editor (Emacs or SciTE), mouse handing ssuppoerted terminal(last year lecture was done by cygwin based octave for windows so that I used the rxvt. Hoever even cmd.exe is rather usable if it is worked in 'easy edit' mode); and readline facilies, the lecuture went well last year. I do not deny the existence of GUI but I think it should not be done by the current main active developper. As some colleages pointed out, there are some good GUI frontends. I think it is OK now. What is most important is an easy tutrial for beginners. Perhaps because the octave is now being popular than before, there appear the colleages who will write the tutorial for beginners. I'm an optimist on this point. Time will improve thing the better. Regards Tatsuro --- "A. Kalten" <akalten@...> wrote: > On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:58:21 +0100 > Francesco Potorti` <Potorti@...> wrote: > > > > > The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is > > not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming > > more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more > > important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is > > accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac > > and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used > > in practice by a normal user. > > > > The main problem is that software like Octave requires a comparatively > sophisticated computer user and not one that always insists on the "crutch" > of a graphical interface. > > Advanced mathematical computation, which is what Octave is all about, > depends on a prior knowledge of many things. The user must understand > the difference between floating point and integer representation, > round-off error, and the discrete nature of numerical algorithms. > A package like Octave cannot be used intelligently without a sufficient > background in these, and many other, basic digital principles. > Those who are unfamiliar with the command-line interface are most likely > unfamiliar with the digital concepts of mathematics as well, and, > I am not sorry to say, they have no business using Octave. > > If a student finds the command line to be an impossible environment > the fault is certainly that of his university or college. A course > in basic computer science, as well as in numerical methods, should > be prerequisites for the use of octave in the classroom. This > may appear unnecessarily harsh, but a strong background in computation > will help any student tremendously later in his life no matter what > the career. > > Let us not forget the KISS idea: Keep It Simple ******. Why > should octave developers waste time and effort perfecting a > graphical interface that will only benefit the unprepared dilettante > or dabbler? The competent mathematician or scientist will certainly > appreciate the efforts of Open Source software and it is toward this > group that Octave should be primarily directed. > > AK > > _______________________________________________ > Help-octave mailing list > Help-octave@... > https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave > -------------------------------------- Easy + Joy + Powerful = Yahoo! Bookmarks x Toolbar http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/toolbar/ _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Tatsuro MATSUOKA-2 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Hello > Ryan Rusaw has, as part of the Octclipse project, implemented a) a > console proxy that allows IDEs to attach to Octave via sockets, and > b) a wrapper that implements the DBGP (Common Debugger Protocol) on > top of Octave; again, IDEs can attach to this standardized interface. > I'm not too familiar with the technicalities, but this sort of stuff > looks interesting in my eyes and may fall under the category "good > hooks", possibly applicable beyond the Octclipse project. Broadly > speaking, once one supports simple and standardized interfaces, there > may be a whole ecosystem of (GUI) tools available to interact with > Octave that weren't necessarily made for that. I have downloaded the Octclipse. I cannot find out how it bind to octave itself. On QtOctave, the octave-MSVC is included. However the Octclipse does not. Perhaps it is required to set something. I cannot find out it in the help. It would be grateful for me to introduce me a tutorial. Tatsuro Regards -------------------------------------- Easy + Joy + Powerful = Yahoo! Bookmarks x Toolbar http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/toolbar/ _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Kaisa S :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Thanks for all the comments and suggestions how to solve "my problem". I have no problem using the command line in Octave, I mostly unlike the visual environment with a black background and white text ... mostly because it forces me to swap glasses and that makes me feel old :).I will try hard to change that. I have only had Octave on my computer for 3 workdays and I am still trying to find my way through it. For me Octave or MatLab or whatever are only tools - my profession is building science not numerical analysis or computational whatever - just like I use a knife and fork to eat my lunch. At this stage Octave is a bit like eating with chop-sticks - I'm not used to it, I manage but it is much slower. Moritz Borgmann sumarized some of the features that I also found helpful in MatLab, I realize that I can get the same information through different commands in Octave, but having them available when working was good for me. I really appreciate the openness of Octave through GNU so I have no plans of swaping to matLab, just because the "lack" of a GUI. ´ But I have one additional question What editor is the best to use together with Octave? all the best! Kaisa Moritz Borgmann wrote: >It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave >doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface >is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it >provides that is so essential. looking at what engineers and scientists around me use in terms of Matlab GUI, in approximately decreasing order of importance: - the "visual debugger" (i.e., with a little arrow next to the current source line, go/stop/step buttons and all that stuff) - the workspace pane, which gives quick & easy overview over the current variables, their dimensions, etc. (especially useful in combination with debugger) - command history pane - the profiler, which is really nice in recent Matlabs (even though Octave doesn't have one, so it's not relevant for the GUI discussion) - the editor, although there's really no need to since there's so many other good editors around. I personally tend to use the command-line version whenever possible, but I do understand people who find above features useful and hence stick with the GUI. At 13:37 Uhr -0400 2008-03-28, John W. Eaton wrote: >Please don't take these comments the wrong way. I'm seriously trying >to understand what it is that makes the Matlab GUI so essential to so >many users. Perhaps it is only a few small features that would not be >so hard to add to Octave. I don't think Octave should do much in the way of GUI, simply provide good hooks for 3rd-party IDE apps to support the features that people are used to in the Matlab GUI. -M _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@octave.org https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Søren Hauberg :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message søn, 30 03 2008 kl. 23:32 -0700, skrev Kaisa S: > But I have one additional question What editor is the best to use together > with Octave? I guess that depends on your preferences :-) A lot of people use 'emacs' which has some support for Octave (more than just syntax highlighting, I think). Personally, I'm not smart enough for emacs, so I use the much simpler 'gedit' editor. But that's only available on Unix. If you're using Windows, then I've some good things about 'Scite', but since I don't have access to Windows I've never tried it. Søren _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave

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	Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Kaisa S :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message I have tried to find an answer to this question without sucess - Is there a Octave workshop or other solution that make my octave 3.0.0 for Windows at least look slightly like MatLab ( it is currently running in a DOS-style window and I find it hard to read with the white text on black). Or should I install an older version of Octave ( an if so which one and together with which Octave workshop version?). Kaisa former matLab user trying to get the hang on Octave
	Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by John W. Eaton :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On 28-Mar-2008, Kaisa S wrote: \| \| I have tried to find an answer to this question without sucess - Is there a \| Octave workshop or other solution that make my octave 3.0.0 for Windows at \| least look slightly like MatLab ( it is currently running in a DOS-style \| window and I find it hard to read with the white text on black). You should be able to change the font and colors. Perhaps a Windows user of Octave will be able to help you with the details of just how to do that. Other than the font and color scheme, what is so different about typing commands at the Octave prompt compared to typing commands at the Matlab prompt, except that the Matlab command window has a lot of other goop surrounding it? Or do you not type at the Matlab prompt in the Matlab command window when you use Matlab? If you don't type commands at the Matlab prompt, then how do you get anything done? It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it provides that is so essential. I have also seen people saying how happy they are to have QtOctave, and the last time I looked, that actually prevents you from typing at the Octave prompt and forces you to type in a small text box that takes full command line history and editing away from you[]. In that sense, it provides less* than the normal "DOS-style" window. Is it just that having a window surrounded by "File" and "Edit" buttons is comforting? Please don't take these comments the wrong way. I'm seriously trying to understand what it is that makes the Matlab GUI so essential to so many users. Perhaps it is only a few small features that would not be so hard to add to Octave. \| Or should I \| install an older version of Octave ( an if so which one and together with \| which Octave workshop version?). Why would you want to use Octave Workshop, since it is apparently no longer maintained and, as I understand it, was never fully functional anyway? jwe [*] Though it just occurred to me that this is the way some instant messaging clients work, so maybe this style of interaction seems normal to people who have grown up with IM clients? _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Olafur Jens Sigurdsson-3 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 07:43:49AM -0700, Kaisa S wrote: > > I have tried to find an answer to this question without sucess - Is there a > Octave workshop or other solution that make my octave 3.0.0 for Windows at > least look slightly like MatLab ( it is currently running in a DOS-style > window and I find it hard to read with the white text on black). Or should I > install an older version of Octave ( an if so which one and together with > which Octave workshop version?). Hi Kaisa, I dont use windows or GUI for octave but have a look at this page and try out the programs mentioned in items 1.4 and 1.5 http://wiki.octave.org/wiki.pl?OctaveForWindows HTH Oli _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Søren Hauberg :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message fre, 28 03 2008 kl. 13:37 -0400, skrev John W. Eaton: > Other than the font and color scheme, what is so different about > typing commands at the Octave prompt compared to typing commands at > the Matlab prompt, except that the Matlab command window has a lot of > other goop surrounding it? Or do you not type at the Matlab prompt in > the Matlab command window when you use Matlab? If you don't type > commands at the Matlab prompt, then how do you get anything done? > > It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave > doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface > is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it > provides that is so essential. Whenever I'm forced to use Matlab, the first thing I do is to disable the GUI. It's unstable, slow, and takes up way too much screen space. That being said, I see a couple of nice features in the GUI: 1) When you view the help text of a function, Matlab underlines the functions in the see-also-list. The functions listed can then be clicked on with the mouse, and their help text is shown. This sometimes (not often, though) makes it faster to find the function you're looking for. 2) The Matlab documentation browser is much nicer than the Gnu Info browser. Personally, I mostly use the Octave-Forge web pages when reading documentation, because I think it's a much nicer solution than the Info browser. 3) The graphical debugger in the editor looks kinda nice. I've never used it, but a friend of mine just loves it. But the general interface is very similar to the Octave interface. If Octave ever gets a GUI, I would hope it would be more inspired by the Maple interface. Back in ye olde days, when I used Maple, I really found it helpful. It's much better for repeating (or correcting) multi-line input. Søren _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Moritz Borgmann-2 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message >It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave >doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface >is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it >provides that is so essential. looking at what engineers and scientists around me use in terms of Matlab GUI, in approximately decreasing order of importance: - the "visual debugger" (i.e., with a little arrow next to the current source line, go/stop/step buttons and all that stuff) - the workspace pane, which gives quick & easy overview over the current variables, their dimensions, etc. (especially useful in combination with debugger) - command history pane - the profiler, which is really nice in recent Matlabs (even though Octave doesn't have one, so it's not relevant for the GUI discussion) - the editor, although there's really no need to since there's so many other good editors around. I personally tend to use the command-line version whenever possible, but I do understand people who find above features useful and hence stick with the GUI. At 13:37 Uhr -0400 2008-03-28, John W. Eaton wrote: >Please don't take these comments the wrong way. I'm seriously trying >to understand what it is that makes the Matlab GUI so essential to so >many users. Perhaps it is only a few small features that would not be >so hard to add to Octave. I don't think Octave should do much in the way of GUI, simply provide good hooks for 3rd-party IDE apps to support the features that people are used to in the Matlab GUI. -M _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by John W. Eaton :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On 28-Mar-2008, Moritz Borgmann wrote: \| I don't think Octave should do much in the way of GUI, simply provide \| good hooks for 3rd-party IDE apps to support the features that people \| are used to in the Matlab GUI. As far as I can tell, that's difficult to do since Octave wants control of the event loop in order to handle command-line input properly (i.e., without having the GUI reinvent readline). But maybe you have some ideas about how it can be designed so that the GUI can be in complete control of all events and Octave can still function properly? jwe _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Jonathan Stickel-5 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On 3/28/08 help-octave-request@... wrote: > Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:11:26 +0100 > From: S?ren Hauberg <soren@...> > Subject: Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp > To: "John W. Eaton" <jwe@...> > Cc: help-octave@... > Message-ID: <1206731486.5948.31.camel@sh-laptop> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 > > fre, 28 03 2008 kl. 13:37 -0400, skrev John W. Eaton: >> > Other than the font and color scheme, what is so different about >> > typing commands at the Octave prompt compared to typing commands at >> > the Matlab prompt, except that the Matlab command window has a lot of >> > other goop surrounding it? Or do you not type at the Matlab prompt in >> > the Matlab command window when you use Matlab? If you don't type >> > commands at the Matlab prompt, then how do you get anything done? >> > >> > It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave >> > doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface >> > is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it >> > provides that is so essential. > Whenever I'm forced to use Matlab, the first thing I do is to disable > the GUI. It's unstable, slow, and takes up way too much screen space. > That being said, I see a couple of nice features in the GUI: > > 1) When you view the help text of a function, Matlab underlines the > functions in the see-also-list. The functions listed can then be clicked > on with the mouse, and their help text is shown. This sometimes (not > often, though) makes it faster to find the function you're looking for. > > 2) The Matlab documentation browser is much nicer than the Gnu Info > browser. Personally, I mostly use the Octave-Forge web pages when > reading documentation, because I think it's a much nicer solution than > the Info browser. > > 3) The graphical debugger in the editor looks kinda nice. I've never > used it, but a friend of mine just loves it. > > But the general interface is very similar to the Octave interface. If > Octave ever gets a GUI, I would hope it would be more inspired by the > Maple interface. Back in ye olde days, when I used Maple, I really found > it helpful. It's much better for repeating (or correcting) multi-line > input. > Back when I used Matlab, I remember using the variable space window and the previous command window. Of course these are easily accessible in Octave with "whos -v" and "history -q N", but I found it nice to always have that information directly in front of me without typing a command. I think some people also like that the Matlab figures can be edited with the mouse-clicks and pull-down menus. Jonathan _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Moritz Borgmann-2 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message At 15:31 Uhr -0400 2008-03-28, John W. Eaton wrote: >On 28-Mar-2008, Moritz Borgmann wrote: > >\| I don't think Octave should do much in the way of GUI, simply provide >\| good hooks for 3rd-party IDE apps to support the features that people >\| are used to in the Matlab GUI. > >As far as I can tell, that's difficult to do since Octave wants >control of the event loop in order to handle command-line input >properly (i.e., without having the GUI reinvent readline). But maybe >you have some ideas about how it can be designed so that the GUI can >be in complete control of all events and Octave can still function >properly? I'm not an expert at all in these matters, so please take my statements with caution. I wasn't actually alluding so much to the handling of the command-line input. I guess it would indeed by hard to have a GUI on top of Octave, but still have Octave handle all command-line editing including readline. But is that a problem? I mean, doesn't the GUI simply have to include decent readline support by itself and it's done? What I also meant was hooks for debugger and profiler. I don't know how complete debugger support is, profiler is not implemented. Ryan Rusaw has, as part of the Octclipse project, implemented a) a console proxy that allows IDEs to attach to Octave via sockets, and b) a wrapper that implements the DBGP (Common Debugger Protocol) on top of Octave; again, IDEs can attach to this standardized interface. I'm not too familiar with the technicalities, but this sort of stuff looks interesting in my eyes and may fall under the category "good hooks", possibly applicable beyond the Octclipse project. Broadly speaking, once one supports simple and standardized interfaces, there may be a whole ecosystem of (GUI) tools available to interact with Octave that weren't necessarily made for that. Another example would be profiling: it could make sense to write out profiler data in, e.g., callgrind format. Then a whole slew of options for display and analysis, far more powerful than the Matlab profiler, would become available, like Kcachegrind. I'm cross-posting to maintainers since this is turning into a development-related discussion. -M _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by John W. Eaton :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On 28-Mar-2008, Jonathan Stickel wrote: \| I think some people also like that the Matlab figures can be edited with \| the mouse-clicks and pull-down menus. I see that as a separate issue, and something that is already being addressed apart from a GUI interface for Octave itself. jwe _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by DigitalPig-3 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Kaisa S <ks@...> writes: > I have tried to find an answer to this question without sucess - Is there a > Octave workshop or other solution that make my octave 3.0.0 for Windows at > least look slightly like MatLab ( it is currently running in a DOS-style > window and I find it hard to read with the white text on black). Or should I > install an older version of Octave ( an if so which one and together with > which Octave workshop version?). > > Kaisa > former matLab user trying to get the hang on Octave :-) Hi. First of all, I didn't use octave by GUI. However, I think you can use google to search for "gui octave" keywords to find if there is anything fit for your need. And one more thing to mention is Emacs has its own octave-mode, which can highlight keywords and do debugging. Hope it help. -- DigitalPig E-mail: digitalpiglee AT gmail DOT com ALL WE SEEN IS ILLUSION. _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Francesco Potortì :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message >It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave >doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface >is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it >provides that is so essential. > >I have also seen people saying how happy they are to have QtOctave, >and the last time I looked, that actually prevents you from typing at >the Octave prompt and forces you to type in a small text box that >takes full command line history and editing away from you[]. In that >sense, it provides less* than the normal "DOS-style" window. Is it >just that having a window surrounded by "File" and "Edit" buttons is >comforting? I'll try to answer something of this. I was in the past a power Mac and Windows user. I am no more, as I use almost exclusively Gnome now, but I still regularly happen to use Mac and Windows. Notice that I never installed nor used Octave on Mac or Windows, and I used Matlab on Windows (or was it DOS?) about fifteen years ago, but it seems that I can understand some things that others do not on this list, so I'll give it a try. The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used in practice by a normal user. When a Windows user installs a program and sees a command line window, the first thought is «something has gone wrong». Then research on the net about what has gone wrong. Then realisation that the command line interface is normal, at least for those who know what "command line interface" means: the others must first learn that, to their astonishment, that in this millennium there are still programs working like that. Then the impulse to uninstall everything and look for something more user friendly. The idea of typing "help" at the prompt is simply out of scope. The idea of typing "2+2 RET" is not considered: they never did anything like that before. When Windows users install a program, they expect to see at the very least some menu items with File/open, File/save, File/quit, and Help/Demo, Help/Manual, Help/search, and possibly a windows popping up with some suggestions. More generally, people do not expect to have to write or memorise things, but to choose items from a menu. For example, having a menu with a list of available functions that just get written to the prompt when chosen, with empty arguments, useless as it may be, would make a Windows user feel at home and concentrate more on learning the program than on how much this interface is different from everything else in the world. -- Francesco Potortì (ricercatore) Voice: +39 050 315 3058 (op.2111) ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR Fax: +39 050 315 2040 via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa Email: Potorti@... Web: http://fly.isti.cnr.it/ Key: fly.isti.cnr.it/public.key _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by dastew :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Francesco Potorti` wrote: >> It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave >> doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface >> is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it >> provides that is so essential. >> >> I have also seen people saying how happy they are to have QtOctave, >> and the last time I looked, that actually prevents you from typing at >> the Octave prompt and forces you to type in a small text box that >> takes full command line history and editing away from you[]. In that >> sense, it provides less* than the normal "DOS-style" window. Is it >> just that having a window surrounded by "File" and "Edit" buttons is >> comforting? >> > > I'll try to answer something of this. I was in the past a power Mac and > Windows user. I am no more, as I use almost exclusively Gnome now, but > I still regularly happen to use Mac and Windows. Notice that I never > installed nor used Octave on Mac or Windows, and I used Matlab on > Windows (or was it DOS?) about fifteen years ago, but it seems that I > can understand some things that others do not on this list, so I'll give > it a try. > > The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is > not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming > more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more > important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is > accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac > and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used > in practice by a normal user. > > When a Windows user installs a program and sees a command line window, > the first thought is «something has gone wrong». Then research on the > net about what has gone wrong. Then realisation that the command line > interface is normal, at least for those who know what "command line > interface" means: the others must first learn that, to their > astonishment, that in this millennium there are still programs working > like that. Then the impulse to uninstall everything and look for > something more user friendly. The idea of typing "help" at the prompt > is simply out of scope. The idea of typing "2+2 RET" is not considered: > they never did anything like that before. > > When Windows users install a program, they expect to see at the very > least some menu items with File/open, File/save, File/quit, and > Help/Demo, Help/Manual, Help/search, and possibly a windows popping up > with some suggestions. More generally, people do not expect to have > to write or memorise things, but to choose items from a menu. For > example, having a menu with a list of available functions that just get > written to the prompt when chosen, with empty arguments, useless as it > may be, would make a Windows user feel at home and concentrate more on > learning the program than on how much this interface is different from > everything else in the world. > > I had my students use qtoctave this year, and it was a success! The "feature" that -- that actually prevents you from typing at the Octave prompt and forces you to type in a small text box that takes full command line history and editing away from you[*]. is not an problem because they want what they type in a file anyway so that they have a record of what they did and can take it home and continue there, etc. I insist that all work is done in a file, because we teach them traceability and record keeping, etc. Very seldom do they ever do a one-liner and if they do then the one line prompt is OK. I like qtoctave and will continue to use it in the class room with windows students. (I am now a ubuntu user at home!!!) _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by A. Kalten :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:58:21 +0100 Francesco Potorti` <Potorti@...> wrote: > > The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is > not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming > more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more > important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is > accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac > and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used > in practice by a normal user. > The main problem is that software like Octave requires a comparatively sophisticated computer user and not one that always insists on the "crutch" of a graphical interface. Advanced mathematical computation, which is what Octave is all about, depends on a prior knowledge of many things. The user must understand the difference between floating point and integer representation, round-off error, and the discrete nature of numerical algorithms. A package like Octave cannot be used intelligently without a sufficient background in these, and many other, basic digital principles. Those who are unfamiliar with the command-line interface are most likely unfamiliar with the digital concepts of mathematics as well, and, I am not sorry to say, they have no business using Octave. If a student finds the command line to be an impossible environment the fault is certainly that of his university or college. A course in basic computer science, as well as in numerical methods, should be prerequisites for the use of octave in the classroom. This may appear unnecessarily harsh, but a strong background in computation will help any student tremendously later in his life no matter what the career. Let us not forget the KISS idea: Keep It Simple ******. Why should octave developers waste time and effort perfecting a graphical interface that will only benefit the unprepared dilettante or dabbler? The competent mathematician or scientist will certainly appreciate the efforts of Open Source software and it is toward this group that Octave should be primarily directed. AK _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by A. Kalten :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:58:21 +0100 Francesco Potorti` <Potorti@...> wrote: > > The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is > not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming > more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more > important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is > accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac > and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used > in practice by a normal user. > The main problem is that software like Octave requires a comparatively sophisticated computer user and not one that always insists on the "crutch" of a graphical interface. Advanced mathematical computation, which is what Octave is all about, depends on a prior knowledge of many things. The user must understand the difference between floating point and integer representation, round-off error, and the discrete nature of numerical algorithms. A package like Octave cannot be used intelligently without a sufficient background in these, and many other, basic digital principles. Those who are unfamiliar with the command-line interface are most likely unfamiliar with the digital concepts of mathematics as well, and, I am not sorry to say, they have no business using Octave. If a student finds the command line to be an impossible environment the fault is certainly that of his university or college. A course in basic computer science, as well as in numerical methods, should be prerequisites for the use of octave in the classroom. This may appear unnecessarily harsh, but a strong background in computation will help any student tremendously later in his life no matter what the career. Let us not forget the KISS idea: Keep It Simple ******. Why should octave developers waste time and effort perfecting a graphical interface that will only benefit the unprepared dilettante or dabbler? The competent mathematician or scientist will certainly appreciate the efforts of Open Source software and it is toward this group that Octave should be primarily directed. AK _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by dastew :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message A. Kalten wrote: > On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:58:21 +0100 > Francesco Potorti` <Potorti@...> wrote: > > >> The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is >> not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming >> more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more >> important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is >> accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac >> and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used >> in practice by a normal user. >> >> > > The main problem is that software like Octave requires a comparatively > sophisticated computer user and not one that always insists on the > "crutch" > of a graphical interface. > I disagree > Advanced mathematical computation, which is what Octave is all about, > depends on a prior knowledge of many things. The user must understand > the difference between floating point and integer representation, > yes > round-off error, and the discrete nature of numerical algorithms. > A package like Octave cannot be used intelligently without a sufficient > background in these, and many other, basic digital principles. > absolutely agree > Those who are unfamiliar with the command-line interface are most likely > unfamiliar with the digital concepts of mathematics as well, and, > I am not sorry to say, they have no business using Octave. > absolutely disagree > If a student finds the command line to be an impossible environment > the fault is certainly that of his university or college. disagree > A course > in basic computer science, as well as in numerical methods, should > be prerequisites for the use of octave in the classroom. disagree > This > may appear unnecessarily harsh, but a strong background in computation > will help any student tremendously later in his life no matter what > the career. > absolutely agree > Let us not forget the KISS idea: Keep It Simple ******. Why > should octave developers waste time and effort perfecting a > graphical interface that will only benefit the unprepared dilettante > or dabbler? The competent mathematician or scientist will certainly > appreciate the efforts of Open Source software and it is toward this > group that Octave should be primarily directed. > disagree > AK > DAS _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On 29/03/2008, Francesco Potorti` <Potorti@...> wrote: > When a Windows user installs a program and sees a command line window, > the first thought is «something has gone wrong». Until computers develop some sort of neural interface and can understand my intent perfectly and without error, the command line is not going to go away. It has flexibility and power that no GUI ever will have. It's more efficient to communicate certain things to the computer using ten fingers than only your wrist and an index finger. Mac OS X has its terminal, and the recent shift from ksh or tcsh to bash shows that Apple cares at least a little about the quality of the shell they use. Even Windows Vista is seeing a shell revival with its Windows Live Power Shell XP Professional Business Edition or whatever the marketable term is. I personally do think that a GNU system has the friendliest shell of all, and that the default appearance of konsole on KDE or a Gnome terminal is miles ahead of the ugly characters and colours of the "DOS-like" shell in Windows. Perhaps this is part of the reason of why we Unix-like users don't find a shell such a scary experience. The shell is going to be around for the foreseeable future, and people with the mathematical sophistication to understand numerical analysis can understand how to use a shell, and they should use it in order to speed up their computer interaction. - Jordi G. H. _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Tatsuro MATSUOKA-2 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Hello I'm using the Octave for nummerical analysys lecture at the University. What's is important is detaied introduction of the usage. There wre no troubles which caeme from the octave did not have a GUI. By the conbination the suitable text editor (Emacs or SciTE), mouse handing ssuppoerted terminal(last year lecture was done by cygwin based octave for windows so that I used the rxvt. Hoever even cmd.exe is rather usable if it is worked in 'easy edit' mode); and readline facilies, the lecuture went well last year. I do not deny the existence of GUI but I think it should not be done by the current main active developper. As some colleages pointed out, there are some good GUI frontends. I think it is OK now. What is most important is an easy tutrial for beginners. Perhaps because the octave is now being popular than before, there appear the colleages who will write the tutorial for beginners. I'm an optimist on this point. Time will improve thing the better. Regards Tatsuro --- "A. Kalten" <akalten@...> wrote: > On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:58:21 +0100 > Francesco Potorti` <Potorti@...> wrote: > > > > > The main problem, as I see it, is look and feel. A command-line GUI is > > not what people expect and are accustomed to use. This is becoming > > more and more true in the Unix world as well, but it is much more > > important among Windows and Mac users. While on Unix almost everyone is > > accustomed to using a command line at least every now and then, on Mac > > and Windows only nerds know that such a thing exists and can be used > > in practice by a normal user. > > > > The main problem is that software like Octave requires a comparatively > sophisticated computer user and not one that always insists on the "crutch" > of a graphical interface. > > Advanced mathematical computation, which is what Octave is all about, > depends on a prior knowledge of many things. The user must understand > the difference between floating point and integer representation, > round-off error, and the discrete nature of numerical algorithms. > A package like Octave cannot be used intelligently without a sufficient > background in these, and many other, basic digital principles. > Those who are unfamiliar with the command-line interface are most likely > unfamiliar with the digital concepts of mathematics as well, and, > I am not sorry to say, they have no business using Octave. > > If a student finds the command line to be an impossible environment > the fault is certainly that of his university or college. A course > in basic computer science, as well as in numerical methods, should > be prerequisites for the use of octave in the classroom. This > may appear unnecessarily harsh, but a strong background in computation > will help any student tremendously later in his life no matter what > the career. > > Let us not forget the KISS idea: Keep It Simple ******. Why > should octave developers waste time and effort perfecting a > graphical interface that will only benefit the unprepared dilettante > or dabbler? The competent mathematician or scientist will certainly > appreciate the efforts of Open Source software and it is toward this > group that Octave should be primarily directed. > > AK > > _______________________________________________ > Help-octave mailing list > Help-octave@... > https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave > -------------------------------------- Easy + Joy + Powerful = Yahoo! Bookmarks x Toolbar http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/toolbar/ _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Tatsuro MATSUOKA-2 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Hello > Ryan Rusaw has, as part of the Octclipse project, implemented a) a > console proxy that allows IDEs to attach to Octave via sockets, and > b) a wrapper that implements the DBGP (Common Debugger Protocol) on > top of Octave; again, IDEs can attach to this standardized interface. > I'm not too familiar with the technicalities, but this sort of stuff > looks interesting in my eyes and may fall under the category "good > hooks", possibly applicable beyond the Octclipse project. Broadly > speaking, once one supports simple and standardized interfaces, there > may be a whole ecosystem of (GUI) tools available to interact with > Octave that weren't necessarily made for that. I have downloaded the Octclipse. I cannot find out how it bind to octave itself. On QtOctave, the octave-MSVC is included. However the Octclipse does not. Perhaps it is required to set something. I cannot find out it in the help. It would be grateful for me to introduce me a tutorial. Tatsuro Regards -------------------------------------- Easy + Joy + Powerful = Yahoo! Bookmarks x Toolbar http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/toolbar/ _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Kaisa S :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Thanks for all the comments and suggestions how to solve "my problem". I have no problem using the command line in Octave, I mostly unlike the visual environment with a black background and white text ... mostly because it forces me to swap glasses and that makes me feel old :).I will try hard to change that. I have only had Octave on my computer for 3 workdays and I am still trying to find my way through it. For me Octave or MatLab or whatever are only tools - my profession is building science not numerical analysis or computational whatever - just like I use a knife and fork to eat my lunch. At this stage Octave is a bit like eating with chop-sticks - I'm not used to it, I manage but it is much slower. Moritz Borgmann sumarized some of the features that I also found helpful in MatLab, I realize that I can get the same information through different commands in Octave, but having them available when working was good for me. I really appreciate the openness of Octave through GNU so I have no plans of swaping to matLab, just because the "lack" of a GUI. ´ But I have one additional question What editor is the best to use together with Octave? all the best! Kaisa Moritz Borgmann wrote: >It seems that many people are disappointed in some way because Octave >doesn't have a GUI. But I just don't see that Matlab's GUI interface >is all that useful, so it would be helpful to understand what it >provides that is so essential. looking at what engineers and scientists around me use in terms of Matlab GUI, in approximately decreasing order of importance: - the "visual debugger" (i.e., with a little arrow next to the current source line, go/stop/step buttons and all that stuff) - the workspace pane, which gives quick & easy overview over the current variables, their dimensions, etc. (especially useful in combination with debugger) - command history pane - the profiler, which is really nice in recent Matlabs (even though Octave doesn't have one, so it's not relevant for the GUI discussion) - the editor, although there's really no need to since there's so many other good editors around. I personally tend to use the command-line version whenever possible, but I do understand people who find above features useful and hence stick with the GUI. At 13:37 Uhr -0400 2008-03-28, John W. Eaton wrote: >Please don't take these comments the wrong way. I'm seriously trying >to understand what it is that makes the Matlab GUI so essential to so >many users. Perhaps it is only a few small features that would not be >so hard to add to Octave. I don't think Octave should do much in the way of GUI, simply provide good hooks for 3rd-party IDE apps to support the features that people are used to in the Matlab GUI. -M _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@octave.org https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave
	Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp by Søren Hauberg :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message søn, 30 03 2008 kl. 23:32 -0700, skrev Kaisa S: > But I have one additional question What editor is the best to use together > with Octave? I guess that depends on your preferences :-) A lot of people use 'emacs' which has some support for Octave (more than just syntax highlighting, I think). Personally, I'm not smart enough for emacs, so I use the much simpler 'gedit' editor. But that's only available on Unix. If you're using Windows, then I've some good things about 'Scite', but since I don't have access to Windows I've never tried it. Søren _______________________________________________ Help-octave mailing list Help-octave@... https://www.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/help-octave

Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp

Re: Octave workshop for Octave 3.0.0 on windows Xp