OpenOffice.org Apache Incubator Proposal

[Luke Kowalski]

The following project is being sent in as an incubator candidate.

regards
luke




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[Christian grobmeier]

Hello Luke,

don't know if OpenOffice is an exception, but usually Proposals are done here:
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/

Best regards,
Christian

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Luke Kowalski <luke.kowalski@...> wrote:

> The following project is being sent in as an incubator candidate.
>
> regards
> luke
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
>

--
http://www.grobmeier.de

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[Greg Stein-4]

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:57, Christian Grobmeier <grobmeier@...>
wrote:
> Hello Luke,
>
> don't know if OpenOffice is an exception, but usually Proposals are done
here:
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/

There is no requirement to use the Wiki. I've attached the text of the .ODT
file in the message below.

Abstract


 OpenOffice.org is comprised of (6) personal productivity applications: word
processor, spreadsheet, presentation graphics, drawing, equation editor, and
database. OpenOffice.org supports Windows, Solaris, Linux and Macintosh
operation systems. OpenOffice.org is localized, supporting over 110
languages worldwide.
 Proposal


 OpenOffice.org will be contributed to Apache Software Foundation by Oracle
Corporation in compliance with ASF licensing and governance.


 This contribution will form the basis of the new OpenOffice project at
Apache.


 Background


 OpenOffice.org was launched as an open source project by Sun Microsystems
in June 2000. OpenOffice.org was originally developed by Star Division which
was acquired by Sun in 1999. OpenOffice.org is the leading alternative to
MS-Office available as an open source licensed offering. The source is
written in C++ and delivers language-neutral and scriptable functionality.
This source technology introduces the next-stage architecture, allowing use
of the suite elements as separate applications or as embedded components in
other applications. Numerous other features are also present including
XML-based file formats based on the vendor-neutral OpenDocument Format (ODF)
standard from OASIS and other resources.


 Rationale


 OpenOffice.org core development would continue at Apache following the
contribution by Oracle, in accordance with Apache bylaws and its usual open
development processes. Both Oracle and ASF agree that the OpenOffice.org
development community, previously fragmented, would re-unite under ASF to
ensure a stable and long term future for OpenOffice.org. ASF would enable
corporate, non-profit, and volunteer stakeholders to contribute code in a
collaborative fashion.


 Supporting tooling projects will accompany the OpenOffice.org contribution,
providing APIs for extending and customizing OpenOffice.org.


 Both OpenOffice.org and the related tooling projects support the OASIS Open
Document Format, and will attract an ecosystem of developers, ISVs and
Systems Integrators. ODF ensures the users of OpenOffice.org and related
solutions will own their document data, and be free to choose the
application or solution that best meets their requirements.


 The OpenOffice.org implementation will serve as a reference implementation
of the Open Document Format standard.



 Current Status


 This is a new project.


 Meritocracy


 The initial developers are very familiar with open source development, both
at Apache and elsewhere. Apache was chosen specifically because Oracle as
contributor, and IBM as Sponsor and the initial developers want to encourage
this style of development for the project. A diverse developer community is
regarded as necessary for a healthy, stable, long term OpenOffice.org
project.


 Community


 OpenOffice.org. seeks to further encourage developer and user communities
during incubation, beyond the existing developers currently working on the
project.


 Core Developers


 The initial set of committers include people from the community of
OpenOffice.org Technology projects. We have varying degrees of experience
with Apache-style open source development, ranging from none to ASF Members.


 Alignment


 The developers of OpenOffice.org will want to work with the Apache Software
Foundation specifically because Apache has proven to provide a strong
foundation and set of practices for developing standards-based
infrastructure and related components. Additionally, the project may evolve
to support cloud and mobile platforms from its starting point of desktop
operating systems.


 Known Risks


 Orphaned products


 OpenOffice.org is a mature project, with a set of APIs. It is continuing to
evolve.


 Inexperience with Open Source


 The initial developers include long-time open source developers, including
Apache Members.


 Homogenous Developers



   OpenOffice.org for many years was managed by Sun, who provided the
   majority of its engineering resources as well as its direction. Moving this
   project to Apache will enable a new start and provide a broad framework.


 Reliance on Salaried Developers


 The initial group of developers will be employed by IBM, Linux distribution
companies, and likely public sector agencies. Localization resources are
expected to gravitate to the new project, as well. Ensuring the long term
stability of OpenOffice.org is a major reason for establishing the project
at Apache.


 Relationships with Other Apache Products


 POI potentially, if POI extends to support ODF, the default file format of
OpenOffice.org.


 A Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand


 We believe in the processes, systems, and framework Apache has put in
place.


 Documentation


 C <http://documentation.OpenOffice.org.org/>urrently available on
openoffice.org and archived.

Migration TBD.
 Initial Source

The initial source will consist of a collection of OpenOffice.org files.



 External Dependencies

None at this time


 Required Resources


 Developer and user mailing lists


 A subversion repository


 A JIRA issue tracker


 Download site


 Oracle will assist in the transition and migration from OpenOffice.org. All
of the content has already been archived and is ready for the ASF
infrastructure group to act on.


 Initial Committers

Andrew Rist ---Oracle

Rob Weir --- IBM



 Sponsors


 Sam Ruby, Geir Magnusson, Sally Khudairi



 Champion


 Sam Ruby, Apache Foundation


 Nominated Mentors


 Jim Jagielski --Apache



 Sponsoring Entity


 The Apache Incubator

[Christian grobmeier]

>> don't know if OpenOffice is an exception, but usually Proposals are done
> here:
>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
>
> There is no requirement to use the Wiki. I've attached the text of the .ODT
> file in the message below.

Thanks Greg.

...but it helps developing the proposal. Guess we can expect some
discussion. People proabably would like to read it without searching
the mailinglist.

Is it ok if I would add it, even when I am not the proposer?

Cheers

>
> Abstract
>
>
>  OpenOffice.org is comprised of (6) personal productivity applications: word
> processor, spreadsheet, presentation graphics, drawing, equation editor, and
> database. OpenOffice.org supports Windows, Solaris, Linux and Macintosh
> operation systems. OpenOffice.org is localized, supporting over 110
> languages worldwide.
>  Proposal
>
>
>  OpenOffice.org will be contributed to Apache Software Foundation by Oracle
> Corporation in compliance with ASF licensing and governance.
>
>
>  This contribution will form the basis of the new OpenOffice project at
> Apache.
>
>
>  Background
>
>
>  OpenOffice.org was launched as an open source project by Sun Microsystems
> in June 2000. OpenOffice.org was originally developed by Star Division which
> was acquired by Sun in 1999. OpenOffice.org is the leading alternative to
> MS-Office available as an open source licensed offering. The source is
> written in C++ and delivers language-neutral and scriptable functionality.
> This source technology introduces the next-stage architecture, allowing use
> of the suite elements as separate applications or as embedded components in
> other applications. Numerous other features are also present including
> XML-based file formats based on the vendor-neutral OpenDocument Format (ODF)
> standard from OASIS and other resources.
>
>
>  Rationale
>
>
>  OpenOffice.org core development would continue at Apache following the
> contribution by Oracle, in accordance with Apache bylaws and its usual open
> development processes. Both Oracle and ASF agree that the OpenOffice.org
> development community, previously fragmented, would re-unite under ASF to
> ensure a stable and long term future for OpenOffice.org. ASF would enable
> corporate, non-profit, and volunteer stakeholders to contribute code in a
> collaborative fashion.
>
>
>  Supporting tooling projects will accompany the OpenOffice.org contribution,
> providing APIs for extending and customizing OpenOffice.org.
>
>
>  Both OpenOffice.org and the related tooling projects support the OASIS Open
> Document Format, and will attract an ecosystem of developers, ISVs and
> Systems Integrators. ODF ensures the users of OpenOffice.org and related
> solutions will own their document data, and be free to choose the
> application or solution that best meets their requirements.
>
>
>  The OpenOffice.org implementation will serve as a reference implementation
> of the Open Document Format standard.
>
>
>
>  Current Status
>
>
>  This is a new project.
>
>
>  Meritocracy
>
>
>  The initial developers are very familiar with open source development, both
> at Apache and elsewhere. Apache was chosen specifically because Oracle as
> contributor, and IBM as Sponsor and the initial developers want to encourage
> this style of development for the project. A diverse developer community is
> regarded as necessary for a healthy, stable, long term OpenOffice.org
> project.
>
>
>  Community
>
>
>  OpenOffice.org. seeks to further encourage developer and user communities
> during incubation, beyond the existing developers currently working on the
> project.
>
>
>  Core Developers
>
>
>  The initial set of committers include people from the community of
> OpenOffice.org Technology projects. We have varying degrees of experience
> with Apache-style open source development, ranging from none to ASF Members.
>
>
>  Alignment
>
>
>  The developers of OpenOffice.org will want to work with the Apache Software
> Foundation specifically because Apache has proven to provide a strong
> foundation and set of practices for developing standards-based
> infrastructure and related components. Additionally, the project may evolve
> to support cloud and mobile platforms from its starting point of desktop
> operating systems.
>
>
>  Known Risks
>
>
>  Orphaned products
>
>
>  OpenOffice.org is a mature project, with a set of APIs. It is continuing to
> evolve.
>
>
>  Inexperience with Open Source
>
>
>  The initial developers include long-time open source developers, including
> Apache Members.
>
>
>  Homogenous Developers
>
>
>
>   OpenOffice.org for many years was managed by Sun, who provided the
>   majority of its engineering resources as well as its direction. Moving this
>   project to Apache will enable a new start and provide a broad framework.
>
>
>  Reliance on Salaried Developers
>
>
>  The initial group of developers will be employed by IBM, Linux distribution
> companies, and likely public sector agencies. Localization resources are
> expected to gravitate to the new project, as well. Ensuring the long term
> stability of OpenOffice.org is a major reason for establishing the project
> at Apache.
>
>
>  Relationships with Other Apache Products
>
>
>  POI potentially, if POI extends to support ODF, the default file format of
> OpenOffice.org.
>
>
>  A Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
>
>
>  We believe in the processes, systems, and framework Apache has put in
> place.
>
>
>  Documentation
>
>
>  C <http://documentation.OpenOffice.org.org/>urrently available on
> openoffice.org and archived.
>
> Migration TBD.
>  Initial Source
>
> The initial source will consist of a collection of OpenOffice.org files.
>
>
>
>  External Dependencies
>
> None at this time
>
>
>  Required Resources
>
>
>  Developer and user mailing lists
>
>
>  A subversion repository
>
>
>  A JIRA issue tracker
>
>
>  Download site
>
>
>  Oracle will assist in the transition and migration from OpenOffice.org. All
> of the content has already been archived and is ready for the ASF
> infrastructure group to act on.
>
>
>  Initial Committers
>
> Andrew Rist ---Oracle
>
> Rob Weir --- IBM
>
>
>
>  Sponsors
>
>
>  Sam Ruby, Geir Magnusson, Sally Khudairi
>
>
>
>  Champion
>
>
>  Sam Ruby, Apache Foundation
>
>
>  Nominated Mentors
>
>
>  Jim Jagielski --Apache
>
>
>
>  Sponsoring Entity
>
>
>  The Apache Incubator
>

--
http://www.grobmeier.de

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[Stefan Seelmann-3]

Oops, the attachment was opened with LibreOffice here. Sorry, can't resist.

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Luke Kowalski <luke.kowalski@...> wrote:

> The following project is being sent in as an incubator candidate.
>
> regards
> luke
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
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[Jukka Zitting]

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Greg Stein <gstein@...> wrote:
> OpenOffice.org will be contributed to Apache Software Foundation by Oracle
> Corporation in compliance with ASF licensing and governance.

Nice!

>  Community
>
>  OpenOffice.org. seeks to further encourage developer and user communities
> during incubation, beyond the existing developers currently working on the
> project.

Any thoughts on how (or if) the LibreOffice community would fit into
this picture?

>  Relationships with Other Apache Products

Apache Tika [1] is obviously interested in cooperation around the ODF format.

[1] http://tika.apache.org/

BR,

Jukka Zitting

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[rgardler]

Thanks for this exciting proposal. I have a few questions.

There are only two initial committers identified in the proposal. Why
only two for such a large codebase?

It's going to be very hard for two committers to manage and maintain
this code.

The proposal states "Both Oracle and ASF agree that the OpenOffice.org
development community, previously fragmented, would re-unite under ASF
to ensure a stable and long term future for OpenOffice.org." What
evidence is there to support this bold statement? And who are the "ASF"
that made this statement?

"The initial developers are very familiar with open source development,
both at Apache and elsewhere. " I don't see any obvious engagement of
either of the initial committers with existing ASF projects and the
proposal does not provide any evidence for the claimed familiarity.
Existing experience is, of course, not required for entry into the
incubator. I'm just wondering if I've missed something?

There is a statement that "Oracle will assist in the transition and
migration from OpenOffice.org.", I am probably reading too much into it,
but why is there not a statement that Oracle intend to continue
development once the transition is complete?

I hope my questions don't push you onto the defensive, that's not my
intention. This is going to be a hard project to bring into the
incubator given the recent history of OpenOffice.org.

As you will no doubt know, the incubator is not a place for code dumps
and I expect that recent events will make plenty of people worry that
this is, in fact, a code dump. By answering these questions I hope you
can start to address these concerns for the Incubator PMC.

Ross

On 01/06/2011 16:41, Luke Kowalski wrote:

> The following project is being sent in as an incubator candidate.
>
> regards
> luke
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
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[Greg Stein-4]

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:12, Christian Grobmeier <grobmeier@...> wrote:

>>> don't know if OpenOffice is an exception, but usually Proposals are done
>> here:
>>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
>>
>> There is no requirement to use the Wiki. I've attached the text of the .ODT
>> file in the message below.
>
> Thanks Greg.
>
> ...but it helps developing the proposal. Guess we can expect some
> discussion. People proabably would like to read it without searching
> the mailinglist.

Quite true!

> Is it ok if I would add it, even when I am not the proposer?

Seems reasonable to me. I see no reason to avoid providing the
proposal in a more useful format :-)

Please post a URL after you've got it all entered into the wiki. Thanks!

Cheers,
-g

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[Jim Jagielski]

On Jun 1, 2011, at 12:21 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:

>
> There is a statement that "Oracle will assist in the transition and migration from OpenOffice.org.", I am probably reading too much into it, but why is there not a statement that Oracle intend to continue development once the transition is complete?
>

Most likely because they don't intend to.

Which is fine (imo)... They will help incubation but
not the graduated TLP. IMO a "code dump" is when people
don't help at all and that is totally unacceptable.
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[Greg Stein-4]

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:21, Ross Gardler <rgardler@...> wrote:
> Thanks for this exciting proposal. I have a few questions.
>
> There are only two initial committers identified in the proposal. Why only
> two for such a large codebase?

Hopefully more will show up. As with other podlings, we're usually
quite liberal with adding people onto the "Initial Committers" list.

>...
> The proposal states "Both Oracle and ASF agree that the OpenOffice.org
> development community, previously fragmented, would re-unite under ASF to
> ensure a stable and long term future for OpenOffice.org." What evidence is
> there to support this bold statement? And who are the "ASF" that made this
> statement?

No idea. Maybe they're missing a "we hope".

> "The initial developers are very familiar with open source development, both
> at Apache and elsewhere. " I don't see any obvious engagement of either of
> the initial committers with existing ASF projects and the proposal does not
> provide any evidence for the claimed familiarity. Existing experience is, of
> course, not required for entry into the incubator. I'm just wondering if
> I've missed something?

IBM has said they're going to put a bunch of people on the project.
Presumably, they have experience (certainly, IBM as whole has plenty
of Apache experience)

> There is a statement that "Oracle will assist in the transition and
> migration from OpenOffice.org.", I am probably reading too much into it, but
> why is there not a statement that Oracle intend to continue development once
> the transition is complete?

Maybe because they don't intend to. *shrug*

>...
> As you will no doubt know, the incubator is not a place for code dumps and I
> expect that recent events will make plenty of people worry that this is, in
> fact, a code dump. By answering these questions I hope you can start to
> address these concerns for the Incubator PMC.

It would only be a code drop if nobody was there to pick it up. At
least IBM sounds like they want to work on it. How many others will be
attracted by this proposal, and join in?

(of course, if it looks like nobody is going to work on it, then
yes... the Incubator would probably just reject the proposal)

Cheers,
-g

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[bimargulies]

> There are only two initial committers identified in the proposal. Why only
> two for such a large codebase?
>

Not only is it a very large code base, it was a weakly maintained and
documented code base for quite some time before the
Sun->Oracle->LO-Split/Splat process.

We generally expect Apache project to provide a reasonable level of
support for their users. Questions should be answered. Not all issues
will get fixed, but they will be responded to in some timely way.

I'm writing here from personal experience: at my day job, we put a ton
of work into building a Java extension for OO, and we ended up doing a
vast amount of reverse engineering in the face of incomplete (and in
some cases completely incorrect) documentation.

In general, I'm all in favor of giving a nacent community every
opportunity to itself together in the incubator, but this one faces
such high barriers that I'm worried.

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[robert_weir]

Jukka Zitting <jukka.zitting@...> wrote on 06/01/2011 12:13:09 PM:

>
> >  Community
> >
> >  OpenOffice.org. seeks to further encourage developer and user
communities
> > during incubation, beyond the existing developers currently working on
the
> > project.
>
> Any thoughts on how (or if) the LibreOffice community would fit into
> this picture?
>

There are many projects, open source and proprietary that are derived from
Sun/Oracle's original OpenOffice project.

I made a diagram of this on a blog post a while ago:

http://www.robweir.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/oo-forks.png
http://www.robweir.com/blog/2010/11/the-legacy-of-openoffice-org.html

So I think we want to consider all of this.  This code base, although not
your typical piece of componentry, does appear to have been treated as
something that could be customized, repackaged and redistributed.  I don't
have the exactly numbers, but there are significant users of the following
OpenOffice derivatives:

- LibreOffice
- IBM Lotus Symphony
- EuroOffice
- BrOffice (which some would say is a derivative of LibreOffice)
- RedOffice

In all cases there are several overlapping communities:

- a community of developers
- a community of users
- a community of supporters, trainers, consultants, etc.

We'll need to work out how these related, and especially which of these
community functions are a good fit for an eventual Apache TLP, and which
things fit better outside of Apache.  But my recommendation is that we
encourage the core development of the editors to occur in Apache, while
making it easy, via a modular extension mechanism, a modular install, etc.
for others to customize and redistribute as permitted by the Apache 2.0
license.


> >  Relationships with Other Apache Products
>
> Apache Tika [1] is obviously interested in cooperation around the ODF
format.
>
> [1] http://tika.apache.org/
>

That would be great.  There is also another project (or set of projects)
that IBM and Sun/Oracle have worked on over the past few years, called the
:ODF Toolkit".  For example, this component was just released today:  
http://odftoolkit.org/projects/simple/pages/ReleaseNotes

The ODF Toolkit work was all written to an Apache 2.0 license.  I think
we're agreed that this should go to Apache as well.  But we were not sure
what the best place would be.  I could see a close relationship to Apache
POI.  It is very similar to those components, but it is certainly not a
"Microsoft" file format.  And I don't agree that the "Pretty Obfuscated
Interface" part accurately describes ODF.  But I could also see the ODF
Toolkit being a component in the Office project, perhaps even being
co-incubated with today's proposal.

Any thoughts on that?


-Rob

> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
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[Luke Kowalski]

we were instructed to send the proposal to an email address.
Should we go and hack at the wiki now? No issues, either way.


On 6/1/2011 9:00 AM, Greg Stein wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:57, Christian Grobmeier <grobmeier@...
> <mailto:grobmeier@...>> wrote:
> > Hello Luke,
> >
> > don't know if OpenOffice is an exception, but usually Proposals are
> done here:
> > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
>
> There is no requirement to use the Wiki. I've attached the text of the
> .ODT file in the message below.
>
>
>   Abstract
>
>
> OpenOffice.org is comprised of (6) personal productivity applications:
> word processor, spreadsheet, presentation graphics, drawing, equation
> editor, and database. OpenOffice.org supports Windows, Solaris, Linux
> and Macintosh operation systems. OpenOffice.org is localized,
> supporting over 110 languages worldwide.
>
>
>   Proposal
>
>
> OpenOffice.org will be contributed to Apache Software Foundation by
> Oracle Corporation in compliance with ASF licensing and governance.
>
>
> This contribution will form the basis of the new OpenOffice project at
> Apache.
>
>
>   Background
>
>
> OpenOffice.org was launched as an open source project by Sun
> Microsystems in June 2000. OpenOffice.org was originally developed by
> Star Division which was acquired by Sun in 1999. OpenOffice.org is the
> leading alternative to MS-Office available as an open source licensed
> offering. The source is written in C++ and delivers language-neutral
> and scriptable functionality. This source technology introduces the
> next-stage architecture, allowing use of the suite elements as
> separate applications or as embedded components in other applications.
> Numerous other features are also present including XML-based file
> formats based on the vendor-neutral OpenDocument Format (ODF) standard
> from OASIS and other resources.
>
>
>   Rationale
>
>
> OpenOffice.org core development would continue at Apache following the
> contribution by Oracle, in accordance with Apache bylaws and its usual
> open development processes. Both Oracle and ASF agree that the
> OpenOffice.org development community, previously fragmented, would
> re-unite under ASF to ensure a stable and long term future for
> OpenOffice.org. ASF would enable corporate, non-profit, and volunteer
> stakeholders to contribute code in a collaborative fashion.
>
>
> Supporting tooling projects will accompany the OpenOffice.org
> contribution, providing APIs for extending and customizing
> OpenOffice.org.
>
>
> Both OpenOffice.org and the related tooling projects support the OASIS
> Open Document Format, and will attract an ecosystem of developers,
> ISVs and Systems Integrators. ODF ensures the users of OpenOffice.org
> and related solutions will own their document data, and be free to
> choose the application or solution that best meets their requirements.
>
>
> The OpenOffice.org implementation will serve as a reference
> implementation of the Open Document Format standard.
>
>
>
>   Current Status
>
>
> This is a new project.
>
>
>   Meritocracy
>
>
> The initial developers are very familiar with open source development,
> both at Apache and elsewhere. Apache was chosen specifically because
> Oracle as contributor, and IBM as Sponsor and the initial developers
> want to encourage this style of development for the project. A diverse
> developer community is regarded as necessary for a healthy, stable,
> long term OpenOffice.org project.
>
>
>   Community
>
>
> OpenOffice.org. seeks to further encourage developer and user
> communities during incubation, beyond the existing developers
> currently working on the project.
>
>
>   Core Developers
>
>
> The initial set of committers include people from the community of
> OpenOffice.org Technology projects. We have varying degrees of
> experience with Apache-style open source development, ranging from
> none to ASF Members.
>
>
>   Alignment
>
>
> The developers of OpenOffice.org will want to work with the Apache
> Software Foundation specifically because Apache has proven to provide
> a strong foundation and set of practices for developing
> standards-based infrastructure and related components. Additionally,
> the project may evolve to support cloud and mobile platforms from its
> starting point of desktop operating systems.
>
>
>   Known Risks
>
>
>   Orphaned products
>
>
> OpenOffice.org is a mature project, with a set of APIs. It is
> continuing to evolve.
>
>
>   Inexperience with Open Source
>
>
> The initial developers include long-time open source developers,
> including Apache Members.
>
>
>   Homogenous Developers
>
>
>       OpenOffice.org for many years was managed by Sun, who provided
>       the majority of its engineering resources as well as its
>       direction. Moving this project to Apache will enable a new start
>       and provide a broad framework.
>
>
>   Reliance on Salaried Developers
>
>
> The initial group of developers will be employed by IBM, Linux
> distribution companies, and likely public sector agencies.
> Localization resources are expected to gravitate to the new project,
> as well. Ensuring the long term stability of OpenOffice.org is a major
> reason for establishing the project at Apache.
>
>
>   Relationships with Other Apache Products
>
>
> POI potentially, if POI extends to support ODF, the default file
> format of OpenOffice.org.
>
>
>   A Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
>
>
> We believe in the processes, systems, and framework Apache has put in
> place.
>
>
>   Documentation
>
>
> C <http://documentation.OpenOffice.org.org/>urrently available on
> openoffice.org <http://openoffice.org> and archived.
>
> Migration TBD.
>
>
>   Initial Source
>
> The initial source will consist of a collection of OpenOffice.org files.
>
>
>
>   External Dependencies
>
> None at this time
>
>
>   Required Resources
>
>
> Developer and user mailing lists
>
>
> A subversion repository
>
>
> A JIRA issue tracker
>
>
> Download site
>
>
> Oracle will assist in the transition and migration from
> OpenOffice.org. All of the content has already been archived and is
> ready for the ASF infrastructure group to act on.
>
>
>   Initial Committers
>
> Andrew Rist ---Oracle
>
> Rob Weir --- IBM
>
>
>
>   Sponsors
>
>
> Sam Ruby, Geir Magnusson, Sally Khudairi
>
>
>
>   Champion
>
>
> Sam Ruby, Apache Foundation
>
>
>   Nominated Mentors
>
>
> Jim Jagielski --Apache
>
>
>
>   Sponsoring Entity
>
>
> The Apache Incubator
>

[rgardler]

On 01/06/2011 17:28, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
> On Jun 1, 2011, at 12:21 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
>
>>
>> There is a statement that "Oracle will assist in the transition and migration from OpenOffice.org.", I am probably reading too much into it, but why is there not a statement that Oracle intend to continue development once the transition is complete?
>>
>
> Most likely because they don't intend to.

:-)
Thanks for the clarity.

> Which is fine (imo)... They will help incubation but
> not the graduated TLP. IMO a "code dump" is when people
> don't help at all and that is totally unacceptable.

But with just two named committers on a code base which OhLoh reports as
24M LOC I'm worried that it can ever get out of incubation.

Who will develop the software?
Who will maintain it?
Who will manage any patches that come in?
Who will do the community development work?

It's still a code dump if there is no chance of graduating.

Please understand I'm not saying there is no chance, I'm asking how do
we maximise the chance of graduation?

Ross

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[rgardler]

On 01/06/2011 17:29, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:21, Ross Gardler<rgardler@...>  wrote:
>> Thanks for this exciting proposal. I have a few questions.
>>
>> There are only two initial committers identified in the proposal. Why only
>> two for such a large codebase?
>
> Hopefully more will show up. As with other podlings, we're usually
> quite liberal with adding people onto the "Initial Committers" list.

I see, so the community development starts now. Good. I hope we see
plenty of LibreOffice people stepping up to be named. If they do step up
will they be added?

>> The proposal states "Both Oracle and ASF agree that the OpenOffice.org
>> development community, previously fragmented, would re-unite under ASF to
>> ensure a stable and long term future for OpenOffice.org." What evidence is
>> there to support this bold statement? And who are the "ASF" that made this
>> statement?
>
> No idea. Maybe they're missing a "we hope".

I'll subscribe to "we hope".

Ross

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[mnour]

Here you are ;) [1].

[1] - http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Greg Stein <gstein@...> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:12, Christian Grobmeier <grobmeier@...> wrote:
>>>> don't know if OpenOffice is an exception, but usually Proposals are done
>>> here:
>>>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
>>>
>>> There is no requirement to use the Wiki. I've attached the text of the .ODT
>>> file in the message below.
>>
>> Thanks Greg.
>>
>> ...but it helps developing the proposal. Guess we can expect some
>> discussion. People proabably would like to read it without searching
>> the mailinglist.
>
> Quite true!
>
>> Is it ok if I would add it, even when I am not the proposer?
>
> Seems reasonable to me. I see no reason to avoid providing the
> proposal in a more useful format :-)
>
> Please post a URL after you've got it all entered into the wiki. Thanks!
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
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>
>

--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
  Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
  http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
- Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein

"Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
than your best."
- Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship

"Stay hungry, stay foolish."
- Steve Jobs

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[Jukka Zitting]

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 6:28 PM, Jim Jagielski <jim@...> wrote:
> On Jun 1, 2011, at 12:21 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> There is a statement that "Oracle will assist in the transition and migration
>> from OpenOffice.org.", I am probably reading too much into it, but why is
>> there not a statement that Oracle intend to continue development once
>> the transition is complete?
>
> Most likely because they don't intend to.

This should be clearly spelled out if it's the intention. I'd also
like to see how the community plans to cope with such a major loss of
experience and know-how.

A related example is the Apache River podling that nearly died when
the then Sun employees were pulled out of the project, which left next
to nobody to look after the codebase. Only with major efforts by
mentors and new contributors was the project salvaged, but even now
it's only a shadow of what Jini used to be. I'd hate to see the same
happen to OpenOffice.

BR,

Jukka Zitting

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[Greg Stein-4]

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:34, Luke Kowalski <luke.kowalski@...> wrote:
> we were instructed to send the proposal to an email address.
> Should we go and hack at the wiki now? No issues, either way.

Thanks for the offer, but we're all good. The proposal came through just fine.

Cheers,
-g

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[Christian grobmeier]

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
<nour.mohammad@...> wrote:
> Here you are ;) [1].
>
> [1] - http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenOfficeProposal

hey I was just about to enter it - my phone prevented me to submit.

>
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Greg Stein <gstein@...> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:12, Christian Grobmeier <grobmeier@...> wrote:
>>>>> don't know if OpenOffice is an exception, but usually Proposals are done
>>>> here:
>>>>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
>>>>
>>>> There is no requirement to use the Wiki. I've attached the text of the .ODT
>>>> file in the message below.
>>>
>>> Thanks Greg.
>>>
>>> ...but it helps developing the proposal. Guess we can expect some
>>> discussion. People proabably would like to read it without searching
>>> the mailinglist.
>>
>> Quite true!
>>
>>> Is it ok if I would add it, even when I am not the proposer?
>>
>> Seems reasonable to me. I see no reason to avoid providing the
>> proposal in a more useful format :-)
>>
>> Please post a URL after you've got it all entered into the wiki. Thanks!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -g
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> - Mohammad Nour
>   Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
>   http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
> ----
> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
> - Albert Einstein
>
> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
> than your best."
> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>
> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
> - Steve Jobs
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
>
>

--
http://www.grobmeier.de

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[Richard Frovarp-2]

On 06/01/2011 11:45 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:

> On 01/06/2011 17:29, Greg Stein wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:21, Ross Gardler<rgardler@...> wrote:
>>> Thanks for this exciting proposal. I have a few questions.
>>>
>>> There are only two initial committers identified in the proposal. Why
>>> only
>>> two for such a large codebase?
>>
>> Hopefully more will show up. As with other podlings, we're usually
>> quite liberal with adding people onto the "Initial Committers" list.
>
> I see, so the community development starts now. Good. I hope we see
> plenty of LibreOffice people stepping up to be named. If they do step up
> will they be added?
>
>>> The proposal states "Both Oracle and ASF agree that the OpenOffice.org
>>> development community, previously fragmented, would re-unite under
>>> ASF to
>>> ensure a stable and long term future for OpenOffice.org." What
>>> evidence is
>>> there to support this bold statement? And who are the "ASF" that made
>>> this
>>> statement?
>>
>> No idea. Maybe they're missing a "we hope".
>
> I'll subscribe to "we hope".
>
> Ross

The The Document Foundation released this announcement today:

http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/announce/msg00047.html

One thing of note is that they state that the Apache License is
compatible with LGPLv3+ and MPL. This means that improvements made under
the Apache License could be merged into LibreOffice. However, I don't
think that the opposite will be true.

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