OpenOffice.org Wiki Categories

[bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany]

Hi List,

I tried to add a bit of structure to to the categories used on the
Openoffice.org Wiki.
I hope the most important ones are now a direct or indirect subcategory
of the MainIndex at:

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:MainIndex

Please check, if "your" category has found a place in the hierarchy, if
not, sort it in.

In addition, I tried to sort categories in as at least one direct or
indirect subcategory of an OpenOffice.org project. This is to help
attributing responsibility for pages.

Finally, I am proposing to link to [[:Category:MainIndex]] from the
frontpage. Hopefully this will aid to keep the Wiki a bit more
structured.

Comments?

Best Regards,

Bjoern Michaelsen

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[Juergen Schmidt-3]

Hi Bjoern,

it seems to be a good start but probably some more main categories are
necessary. But then the question is if we need it at all or if a
reworked main page would help to navigate in and through the wiki.

I think a common agreement on how to use categories and sub categories
would be more helpful.

Take a look for example on Tutorials. Clicking on the category shows a
lot of tutorials and when you expand the node in the main index you get
a sub category Basic:Tutorials. What does it mean, no other tutorials or
only a different usage of categories? Looks confusing to me.

I miss for example the category "Conferences" and a related entry in the
main index. The same for "Marketing".

Regards

Juergen


bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany wrote:

> Hi List,
>
> I tried to add a bit of structure to to the categories used on the
> Openoffice.org Wiki.
> I hope the most important ones are now a direct or indirect subcategory
> of the MainIndex at:
>
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:MainIndex
>
> Please check, if "your" category has found a place in the hierarchy, if
> not, sort it in.
>
> In addition, I tried to sort categories in as at least one direct or
> indirect subcategory of an OpenOffice.org project. This is to help
> attributing responsibility for pages.
>
> Finally, I am proposing to link to [[:Category:MainIndex]] from the
> frontpage. Hopefully this will aid to keep the Wiki a bit more
> structured.
>
> Comments?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bjoern Michaelsen
>

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[bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:38:44 +0100
Juergen Schmidt <Juergen.Schmidt@...> wrote:

> it seems to be a good start but probably some more main categories
> are necessary. But then the question is if we need it at all or if a
> reworked main page would help to navigate in and through the wiki.
Without categories, there will be an ever-growing number of obsolete,
outdated and orphaned pages. This is not a problem for navigation from
the main page, but it will make the search functionality of the wiki
more and more useless.

> I think a common agreement on how to use categories and sub
> categories would be more helpful.
Like:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/SOP/Wiki/Categories
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/SOP/Wiki/New_Wiki_Pages
for starters?
Yes, I think every new page should be in at least one category that is
a project (or a subcategory of a project).

> Take a look for example on Tutorials. Clicking on the category shows
> a lot of tutorials and when you expand the node in the main index you
> get a sub category Basic:Tutorials. What does it mean, no other
> tutorials or only a different usage of categories? Looks confusing to
> me.
Yeah, right. But I think ordering the categories is the second step,
first we will need to get stuff into at least one category and make each
category a direct or indirect subcategory of MainIndex. Then we can
really see whats there and consolidate. That being said, I already did
some obvious cleanups along the way (like merging the "Project" and
"Projects" categories).

> I miss for example the category "Conferences" and a related entry in
> the main index. The same for "Marketing".
Huh? MainIndex -> Project -> Markting -> Conferences seems pretty
straightforward to me. That being said those _are_ already listed on
the frontpage.

Best Regards,

Bjoern


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[Juergen Schmidt-3]

bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:38:44 +0100
> Juergen Schmidt <Juergen.Schmidt@...> wrote:
>
>> it seems to be a good start but probably some more main categories
>> are necessary. But then the question is if we need it at all or if a
>> reworked main page would help to navigate in and through the wiki.
> Without categories, there will be an ever-growing number of obsolete,
> outdated and orphaned pages. This is not a problem for navigation from
> the main page, but it will make the search functionality of the wiki
> more and more useless.
>
>> I think a common agreement on how to use categories and sub
>> categories would be more helpful.
> Like:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/SOP/Wiki/Categories
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/SOP/Wiki/New_Wiki_Pages
> for starters?
> Yes, I think every new page should be in at least one category that is
> a project (or a subcategory of a project).
>
>> Take a look for example on Tutorials. Clicking on the category shows
>> a lot of tutorials and when you expand the node in the main index you
>> get a sub category Basic:Tutorials. What does it mean, no other
>> tutorials or only a different usage of categories? Looks confusing to
>> me.
> Yeah, right. But I think ordering the categories is the second step,
> first we will need to get stuff into at least one category and make each
> category a direct or indirect subcategory of MainIndex. Then we can
> really see whats there and consolidate. That being said, I already did
> some obvious cleanups along the way (like merging the "Project" and
> "Projects" categories).
>
>> I miss for example the category "Conferences" and a related entry in
>> the main index. The same for "Marketing".
> Huh? MainIndex -> Project -> Markting -> Conferences seems pretty
> straightforward to me. That being said those _are_ already listed on
> the frontpage.

ah i see, but Marketing is so important from my point of view that i
wouldn't have searched under "Project". Well but that is my personal
problem with all the "sub" projects.

For me it's still more natural to see the OpneOffice.org project with
several main entry points independent of any sub project.

Related to a "MainIndex" i would expect entry points like "Development",
"Documentation", "Marketing" ...

Juergen

>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bjoern
>
>


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[bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:59:28 +0100
Juergen Schmidt <Juergen.Schmidt@...> wrote:

> bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany wrote:
> ah i see, but Marketing is so important from my point of view that i
> wouldn't have searched under "Project". Well but that is my personal
> problem with all the "sub" projects.
I dont think "importance" should play a role on the Index Page. Thats
what the main page is for. The index should:
- offer a structure to search for things in a hierarchy
- allow to attribute reponsibility for content in the wiki

> For me it's still more natural to see the OpneOffice.org project with
> several main entry points independent of any sub project.
>
> Related to a "MainIndex" i would expect entry points like
> "Development", "Documentation", "Marketing" ...
"Development", "Documentation" and "NLC" are right on the toplevel
because they contain so many subcategories themselves (>15). "Wiki" is
there because it contains important meta-information.

However, "Development" is problematic in itself, as people use
different definitions. Some use it for stuff doing development on top
of OOo as a "blackbox"-framework via the API (Extensions, Basic macros
etc.), while others use it for development on OOos internals itself. In
the end this dilutes the category and its use.
Good categories would seperate:

- end users (category:enduser)
- Developers using OOo as a blackbox platform (extensions, macros,
  etc.) (category:ApiDevelopment ?)
- OOo internal development (category:CoreDevelopment ?)

But its still a long way to get there.

Best Regards,

Bjoern



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[Cor Nouws]

Hi Bjoern,

bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany wrote (26-10-2009
12:59)
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:MainIndex
>
> Comments?

Good job :-)

Taking profit from your discussion with Juergen, I would suggest as main
categories:
- Development of OpenOffice.org
- Development with OpenOffice.org
- Marketing
- NLC
- Project
- Wiki

Few remarks:
- currently, Documentation is both main category and sub category of
Project.
- currently Performance is both under Development and Project.
- API, Extensions should be under "Development with OpenOffice.org"
- ODFToolkit maybe as main category (after all it is
http://odftoolkit.org/ as very main ;-) )

Best,
Cor


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[Juergen Schmidt-3]

Cor Nouws wrote:

> Hi Bjoern,
>
> bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany wrote (26-10-2009
> 12:59)
>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:MainIndex
>>
>> Comments?
>
> Good job :-)
>
> Taking profit from your discussion with Juergen, I would suggest as main
> categories:
> - Development of OpenOffice.org
> - Development with OpenOffice.org
> - Marketing
> - NLC
> - Project
> - Wiki
>

mmh, i am not 100% sure if we should distinguish between developing for
or with OOo. We can of course provide a special section that addresses
mainly the programming from outside (means macros and extensions) but in
general i would not differentiate from the beginning. Many things are
the same.

 From an API perspective it's the same. Our API should be and is used
internally as well. Keep in mind "one and the same API everyhwere".

That currently the API is put on top of a longer existing implementation
is just an implementation detail ;-) Building functional blocks and
combine them via clear defined interfaces ... Ok i know it is a little
bit philosophic but that was and i hope still is the main idea behind
UNO and the component technology.

With ongoing modularization this becomes hopefully even more obvious.


> Few remarks:
> - currently, Documentation is both main category and sub category of
> Project.
> - currently Performance is both under Development and Project.
> - API, Extensions should be under "Development with OpenOffice.org"
as long as we have this project view it's fine, it provides just a
further way to this categories. But see my comments above ...

Juergen

> - ODFToolkit maybe as main category (after all it is
> http://odftoolkit.org/ as very main ;-) )
>
> Best,
> Cor
>
>


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[eric b-3]

Hi,

Le 28 oct. 09 à 15:04, Cor Nouws a écrit :

> Hi Bjoern,
>
> bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany wrote  
> (26-10-2009 12:59)
>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:MainIndex
>> Comments?
>
> Good job :-)
>
> Taking profit from your discussion with Juergen, I would suggest as  
> main categories:
> - Development of OpenOffice.org
> - Development with OpenOffice.org
> - Marketing
> - NLC
> - Project
> - Wiki
>
> Few remarks:
> - currently, Documentation is both main category and sub category  
> of Project.
> - currently Performance is both under Development and Project.
> - API, Extensions should be under "Development with OpenOffice.org"
> - ODFToolkit maybe as main category (after all it is http://
> odftoolkit.org/ as very main ;-) )
>

And Education ?

Regards,
Eric


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[Cor Nouws]

eric b wrote (28-10-2009 15:38)

> And Education ?

(was waiting for this one :-D )

Pls look at the various project categories.

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[eric b-3]

Hi,

Le 28 oct. 09 à 15:52, Cor Nouws a écrit :

> eric b wrote (28-10-2009 15:38)
>> And Education ?
> (was waiting for this one :-D )


Like I was myself sure Education will be missing at the end ;)


> Pls look at the various project categories.
>

More deep thought:  this is the second time a try to reorganize the  
wiki is made.

I know this is not trivial, and I just hope the logical will be  
respected, and the representation of any side of the project will be  
visible and well represented


Regards,
Eric

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[bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany]

Am Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:04:45 +0100
schrieb Cor Nouws <oolst@...>:

> Hi Bjoern,
>
> bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany wrote
> (26-10-2009 12:59)
> > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:MainIndex
> >
> > Comments?
>
> Good job :-)
Thanks.

> Taking profit from your discussion with Juergen, I would suggest as
> main categories:
> - Development of OpenOffice.org
> - Development with OpenOffice.org
> - Marketing
> - NLC
> - Project
> - Wiki
Sounds good, but I think Documentation deserves a spot there too, as
most stuff on the Wiki is Documentation. If not, there at least needs
to be a Toplevel-Category "Using OpenOfffice.org" (as opposed to the
"Development"-Categories).
 
> Few remarks:
> - currently, Documentation is both main category and sub category of
> Project.
Yes, this is intentionally. Every subcategory of "Project" should be
something represented by real people. These are the owners of the pages
in "their" category and in "their" subcategories.
Documentation being on the toplevel of the MainIndex is because:
- Most of the Wiki _is_ Documentation
- They have a decent organization of subcategories

> - currently Performance is both under Development and Project.
Intentionally, because it is an Office-wide Development Effort and not
limited to some modules. Some for API, Porting, ESC.

> - API, Extensions should be under "Development with OpenOffice.org"
Separating "Development of" and "Development with" sounds like a
sensible thing. However, we should really get rid of "Development"
then, as covers way to many topics (pretty much everything
not-Marketing and not-Enduser).
> - ODFToolkit maybe as main category (after all it is
> http://odftoolkit.org/ as very main ;-) )
True.

I found this:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:SOP
sorting out categories and it is seems really useful.

A few points from those:
- One should never create or modify a page so that it does not belong to
  a project. If one wants to not yet show a page in the Project
  Category one should use a subcategory for those.
  (for example: Category:Quality Assurance/Draft)
  Exceptions are the User:-Pages and their subpages which can be used as
  Sandboxes.
- The "Developemnt" and "Wiki" categories and their subcategories are
  supplemental as they do not attribute ownership to a project.
- new Categories should always be a subcategory of an existing category
  (and thus end up somewhere on the MainIndex)
- All projects should take a look at their subcategories and clean up
  if needed. NLC should consolidate on a naming scheme for
  subcategories (languages).
- Category pages should never redirect as it is really a maintenance
  hassle. If the Category has a "frontpage" just link to it from the
  category page.
- Never "black a page". Use {{delete}} instead. (I will mark the ca. 50
  blank pages we have in the wiki for deletion soon).

This:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedCategories
looks good.
This:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WantedCategories&limit=100
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedPages
not so much.

Best Regards,

Bjoern Michaelsen


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[Cor Nouws]

eric b wrote (28-10-2009 16:00)

> Like I was myself sure Education will be missing at the end ;)

No need to worry:
It is not missing.
It was not missing.
And it will not be missing.

Cor


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[Cor Nouws]

Björn Michaelsen wrote (28-10-2009 16:52)

> Am Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:04:45 +0100
> schrieb Cor Nouws <oolst@...>:
>> bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - wrote (26-10-2009 12:59)
>>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:MainIndex
>
>> Taking profit from your discussion with Juergen, I would suggest as
>> main categories:
>> - Development of OpenOffice.org
>> - Development with OpenOffice.org
>> - Marketing
>> - NLC
>> - Project
>> - Wiki
> Sounds good, but I think Documentation deserves a spot there too, as
> most stuff on the Wiki is Documentation. If not, there at least needs
> to be a Toplevel-Category "Using OpenOfffice.org" (as opposed to the
> "Development"-Categories).

Sure - was forgotten that one ..

>> Few remarks:
>> - currently, Documentation is both main category and sub category of
>> Project.
> Yes, this is intentionally. Every subcategory of "Project" should be
> something represented by real people. These are the owners of the pages
> in "their" category and in "their" subcategories.
> Documentation being on the toplevel of the MainIndex is because:
> - Most of the Wiki _is_ Documentation
> - They have a decent organization of subcategories

That is what I understand and see reflected now on the category page.

>> - currently Performance is both under Development and Project.
> Intentionally, because it is an Office-wide Development Effort and not
> limited to some modules. Same for API, Porting, ESC.

OK, if that does work.

>> - API, Extensions should be under "Development with OpenOffice.org"
> Separating "Development of" and "Development with" sounds like a
> sensible thing. However, we should really get rid of "Development"
> then, as covers way to many topics (pretty much everything
> not-Marketing and not-Enduser).

Then you must think of some new main categories?

>> - ODFToolkit maybe as main category (after all it is
>> http://odftoolkit.org/ as very main ;-) )
> True.
>
> I found this:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:SOP
> sorting out categories and it is seems really useful.
>
> A few points from those:
> - One should never create or modify a page so that it does not belong to
>   a project. If one wants to not yet show a page in the Project
>   Category one should use a subcategory for those.
>   (for example: Category:Quality Assurance/Draft)
>   Exceptions are the User:-Pages and their subpages which can be used as
>   Sandboxes.
> - The "Developemnt" and "Wiki" categories and their subcategories are
>   supplemental as they do not attribute ownership to a project.
> - new Categories should always be a subcategory of an existing category
>   (and thus end up somewhere on the MainIndex)
> - All projects should take a look at their subcategories and clean up
>   if needed. NLC should consolidate on a naming scheme for
>   subcategories (languages).
> - Category pages should never redirect as it is really a maintenance
>   hassle. If the Category has a "frontpage" just link to it from the
>   category page.
> - Never "black a page". Use {{delete}} instead. (I will mark the ca. 50
>   blank pages we have in the wiki for deletion soon).

Great. To serve that, we are best helped with a clear structure, of
which it is obvious right away how it works.
Therefore my enthusiasm for your work on this.

> This:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedCategories
> looks good.
> This:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WantedCategories&limit=100
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedPages
> not so much.

Indeed. (I see there  is also something to learn and do for the people
of the CC, working on the wiki ;-) )


Cor

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[Cor Nouws]

Juergen Schmidt wrote (28-10-2009 15:34)
> Cor Nouws wrote:

>> Taking profit from your discussion with Juergen, I would suggest as
>> main categories:
>> - Development of OpenOffice.org
>> - Development with OpenOffice.org
>> - Marketing
>> - NLC
>> - Project
>> - Wiki
>>
> mmh, i am not 100% sure if we should distinguish between developing for
> or with OOo. We can of course provide a special section that addresses
> mainly the programming from outside (means macros and extensions) but in
> general i would not differentiate from the beginning. Many things are
> the same.

As long as it is easy to follow for people working with extensions and
macro's, it's fine to me.

>  From an API perspective it's the same. Our API should be and is used
> internally as well. Keep in mind "one and the same API everyhwere".
>
> That currently the API is put on top of a longer existing implementation
> is just an implementation detail ;-) Building functional blocks and
> combine them via clear defined interfaces ... Ok i know it is a little
> bit philosophic but that was and i hope still is the main idea behind
> UNO and the component technology.
>
> With ongoing modularization this becomes hopefully even more obvious.
>
>
>> Few remarks:
>> - currently, Documentation is both main category and sub category of
>> Project.
>> - currently Performance is both under Development and Project.
>> - API, Extensions should be under "Development with OpenOffice.org"
> as long as we have this project view it's fine, it provides just a
> further way to this categories. But see my comments above ...

and see Bjoerns remarks on this in the other mail, etc.

Best,
Cor

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