PPP / ADSL / demand / GUI prompt question

Hello all,
new Debian user here, hope somebody can help.

With no help, and asking no questions until now - but extensive use of Google! - I have managed to partition my PC's hard drive, download the 5.0.3 net-inst ISO image, install Debian on my new partition, find the firmware for my ADSL modem so that I could get pon and poff working, then use 'aptitude' to download just about everything else I wanted, or thought I wanted: nvidia drivers, xorg, kfce, slim, iceweasel, adobe-flashplugin, ntfs-3g, alsa-utils, and sharp Microsoft fonts.

All of the above is working, including pon and poff, but I have a question as follows.  (I am surprised I haven't been able to find the answer to this using Google / the Debian website / aptitude etc., so if I am missing something obvious please go easy on me!)

At the moment I have to start an xterm and explicitly type 'pon' before I can use any internet-based programs such as iceweasel or even ping.  My question is, is there any way I can get iceweasel (or ping) to cause a GUI dialog to appear, asking me if I want to establish the ADSL connection, if it is not up?  (In other words, the way it works in Windows?)  Said GUI dialog would preferably work on top of kfce, which I like.

I HAVE tried adding the line 'demand' to my /etc/ppp/peers/provider file.  After doing that if I run pon and then plog -f, I can see messages up to the point where it tells me the local and remote IP addresses, with nothing after that - presumably because pppd is waiting for some 'demand' before it connects.  However, when I then try iceweasel, it still says 'site not found' and and nothing more appears in the plog -f output.  Similarly, when I try ping, it still says unknown host.

Just a reminder, even if this were working, this would still not be 100% of what I am after - I would like to know if there is a way that I can be prompted if anything wants to connect to the internet - preferably via a GUI dialog that works on top of kfce.  However I would still be interested to know why the 'demand' line in my PPP provider file does not seem to have the desired effect.

Thank you in advance.


     


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[Michael Wagner-10]

* stephen2eq@... <stephen2eq@...> 30.10.2009
 

> At the moment I have to start an xterm and explicitly type 'pon'
> before I can use any internet-based programs such as iceweasel or even
> ping.  My question is, is there any way I can get iceweasel (or ping)
> to cause a GUI dialog to appear, asking me if I want to establish the
> ADSL connection, if it is not up?  (In other words, the way it works
> in Windows?)  Said GUI dialog would preferably work on top of kfce,
> which I like.
>
> I HAVE tried adding the line 'demand' to my /etc/ppp/peers/provider
> file.  After doing that if I run pon and then plog -f, I can see
> messages up to the point where it tells me the local and remote IP
> addresses, with nothing after that - presumably because pppd is
> waiting for some 'demand' before it connects.  However, when I then
> try iceweasel, it still says 'site not found' and and nothing more
> appears in the plog -f output.  Similarly, when I try ping, it still
> says unknown host.

Hello Stephen,

I have these lines at the top of my /etc/ppp/peers/provider

connect /bin/true
demand
idle 180
.....
.....

Hth Michael

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Hi Michael
thanks for your help.  I tried those three lines at the top of my provider file but they do not seem to have made any difference.  (As an aside I did find it strange that if I put the 'connect' line somewhere else in the file other than at the top, pppd complains that it is an 'unrecognised option'!  It doesn't complain if it is the first line however.)
Thanks again
Stephen

--- On Fri, 10/30/09, Michael Wagner <michaeldebian@...> wrote:

> I have these lines at the top of my /etc/ppp/peers/provider
>
> connect /bin/true
> demand
> idle 180


     


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[celejar]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 07:49:34 -0700 (PDT)
"stephen2eq@..." <stephen2eq@...> wrote:

...

> At the moment I have to start an xterm and explicitly type 'pon'
> before I can use any internet-based programs such as iceweasel or
> even ping.  My question is, is there any way I can get iceweasel (or
> ping) to cause a GUI dialog to appear, asking me if I want to
> establish the ADSL connection, if it is not up?  (In other words, the
> way it works in Windows?)  Said GUI dialog would preferably work on
> top of kfce, which I like.

An interesting question.  I have no idea if there's some standard way
to do this, but it should be fairly straightforward to cobble together
something using a local "firewall", plus something like fwlogwatch,
invoked with the -R option for "realtime response mode".  The idea
would be to configure your firewall to log all packets somewhere, and
watch for them with fwlogwatch, which can be configured to take some
arbitrary action when it sees packets.  The action, in your case, would
be to launch whatever GUI tool you want.  [You might want to also have
the action reconfigure the firewall to throttle back its logging once
the connection is up, since that could be a pretty heavy load on a
connected system.]

Once again, there may very well be a simpler, standard way of doing what
you want, but I don't know of it.

Celejar
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[Kevin Ross-4]

> From: stephen2eq@... [mailto:stephen2eq@...]
> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 7:50 AM
>
> At the moment I have to start an xterm and explicitly type 'pon' before
> I can use any internet-based programs such as iceweasel or even ping.
> My question is, is there any way I can get iceweasel (or ping) to cause
> a GUI dialog to appear, asking me if I want to establish the ADSL
> connection, if it is not up?  (In other words, the way it works in
> Windows?)  Said GUI dialog would preferably work on top of kfce, which
> I like.
>
> I HAVE tried adding the line 'demand' to my /etc/ppp/peers/provider
> file.  After doing that if I run pon and then plog -f, I can see
> messages up to the point where it tells me the local and remote IP
> addresses, with nothing after that - presumably because pppd is waiting
> for some 'demand' before it connects.  However, when I then try
> iceweasel, it still says 'site not found' and and nothing more appears
> in the plog -f output.  Similarly, when I try ping, it still says
> unknown host.

I would suggest getting "demand" to work with pppd first.  It's been awhile
since I've used pppd, but I do recall it wasn't too hard to get on-demand
dialing to work.

Then, you could use the "connect" option to launch some type of graphical
yes/no prompt.  You may have to throw something together with Tcl/Tk or
similar.

I know this doesn't solve your problem, but it might give you some ideas.

-- Kevin



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[Stan Hoeppner]

stephen2eq@... put forth on 10/30/2009 9:49 AM:
> Hello all,
> new Debian user here, hope somebody can help.

What do you have against using a PPPoE broadband router, like (most of)
the rest of us?  Masochist?

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Celejar:
> something using a local "firewall", plus something like fwlogwatch,
> invoked with the -R option for "realtime response mode".  The idea

Thanks for that, I will have look at fwlogwatch if / when I have some more time to spend on this (unfortunately, a week off work just ended today).

Kevin Ross:
> I would suggest getting "demand" to work with pppd first.

I agree, this would be enough to allow me to let the machine boot up into Linux by default (as explained at the end of this message).

So, does anyone out there have any more suggestions as to what might be wrong with my attempt to use 'demand' with pppd?

> Then, you could use the "connect" option to launch some type of graphical
> yes/no prompt.  You may have to throw something together with Tcl/Tk or
> similar.

Thanks, if / when I have time I will look into what the 'connect' option does (apart from its surprising ability to only work when it is the first line in the file :-)

Stan Hoeppner:
> What do you have against using a PPPoE broadband router,
> like (most of)
> the rest of us?  Masochist?

During my first bout of epic googling this week (when I was trying to get the Internet connection working) I did come across the recommendation, in several places, that I buy a router and possibly also an Ethernet card.  If you suspect I had something against this idea then your intuition is sound.  That something being the fact that Windows has let me surf the Internet very happily for the last 7 years with the hardware I have :-)

In fact I am already surfing happily with Debian, even though I had never heard of iceweasel until 3 days ago (at first I thought how stupid is that name, but the name has grown on me and I never really liked the name 'Firefox' anyway, how could they not think it would constantly remind us of that Clint Eastwood movie?)

It is just that I would prefer that non-technical guests staying at my house not have to learn to start an xfce-term and type 'pon' before they can use the Internet.  If it comes to that I would make the machine boot up into Windows by default, but that would be an opportunity lost with regard to showing people that there is an alternative.

Thanks again to all who have replied.





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[John Hasler]

stephen2eq writes:
> It is just that I would prefer that non-technical guests staying at my
> house not have to learn to start an xfce-term and type 'pon' before
> they can use the Internet.

Then why don't you just run pppoeconf as root, follow instructions, and
be happy?  Why do you want to complicate things?
--
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[Stan Hoeppner]

stephen2eq@... put forth on 10/30/2009 7:43 PM:

> It is just that I would prefer that non-technical guests staying at my house not have to learn to start an xfce-term and type 'pon' before they can use the Internet.  If it comes to that I would make the machine boot up into Windows by default, but that would be an opportunity lost with regard to showing people that there is an alternative.

What about guests who arrive with laptop in tow, expecting to hop on the
net at your place just as they would at a hotel?  Even the cheapest
hotels have free wireless internet access these days, as do many other
venues, including various coffee shops, schools, churches, etc.  Join
the 21st century already. ;)

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I have run pppoeconf as root, it is one of the things I tried over the last few days.  I just did it again, since I couldn't remember what happened the last time.  It just says no working Ethernet card can be found, not surprising really since I don't have an Ethernet card.  Am I missing something here?

--- On Sat, 10/31/09, John Hasler <jhasler@...> wrote:
> Then why don't you just run pppoeconf as root, follow
> instructions, and
> be happy?  Why do you want to complicate things?





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[Stan Hoeppner]

stephen2eq@... put forth on 10/30/2009 9:39 PM:
> I have run pppoeconf as root, it is one of the things I tried over the last few days.  I just did it again, since I couldn't remember what happened the last time.  It just says no working Ethernet card can be found, not surprising really since I don't have an Ethernet card.  Am I missing something here?

Maybe I missed something in a previous post.  If you don't have
ethernet, then how are you connecting to the dsl modem?  USB?

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--- On Sat, 10/31/09, Stan Hoeppner <stan@...> wrote:
> Maybe I missed something in a previous post.  If you
> don't have
> ethernet, then how are you connecting to the dsl
> modem?  USB?

Yes USB to ADSL modem to POTS.  I think your suggestion of buying a router was still valid however, I found several recommendations to do this when I was Googling to find out how to get pon and poff working.  However I was and am determined that I shouldn't need to buy any more hardware than Windows has needed, and I felt vindicated in this when I did get pon and poff working.

With that I now have almost everything I want, so the case for buying more hardware is even weaker now than it was when I started out.  I could even put 'pon' in the initrc file (or whatever it's called these days), or perhaps in users' .profiles, so that nobody would need to type it explicitly.  However I would prefer to get the 'demand' feature working - since it is supposed to work, and it is cooler - and I also still like the idea of having a GUI dialog.  Maybe it's because I have used Windows for too long and have developed Stockholm syndrome, but I like the way it lets me see, and approve, connection attempts.


     


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[H.S.]

stephen2eq@... wrote:
 > It is just that I would prefer that non-technical guests staying at
my house not have to learn to start an xfce-term and type 'pon' before
they can use the Internet.  If it comes to that I would make the machine
boot up into Windows by default, but that would be an opportunity lost
with regard to showing people that there is an alternative.

How about this:

1. Make all users, or selected users if you wish, belong to the
'dialout' group.

2. Verify that pon can be initiated by "dialout" group users (is it so
by default?).

3. Make a shortcut on everyone's desktop to call the pon command ("sudo
pon dsl-provider").

4. Advise users to click on that short cut if they want internet access.

5. A similar shortcut for "sudo poff -a" to the connection to off.


I admit it is not something similar to the GUI based pon choice upon
detection of internet traffic, but it is at least fast and easy to setup
while you wait for a better solution.

Regards.






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[Stan Hoeppner]

stephen2eq@... put forth on 10/30/2009 10:15 PM:
> --- On Sat, 10/31/09, Stan Hoeppner <stan@...> wrote:
>> Maybe I missed something in a previous post.  If you
>> don't have
>> ethernet, then how are you connecting to the dsl
>> modem?  USB?
>
> Yes USB to ADSL modem to POTS.  I think your suggestion of buying a router was still valid however, I found several recommendations to do this when I was Googling to find out how to get pon and poff working.  However I was and am determined that I shouldn't need to buy any more hardware than Windows has needed, and I felt vindicated in this when I did get pon and poff working.

Your DSL modem connects to a DSLAM, not POTS.  And regarding your
reference to POTS...

> With that I now have almost everything I want, so the case for buying more hardware is even weaker now than it was when I started out.  I could even put 'pon' in the initrc file (or whatever it's called these days), or perhaps in users' .profiles, so that nobody would need to type it explicitly.  However I would prefer to get the 'demand' feature working - since it is supposed to work, and it is cooler - and I also still like the idea of having a GUI dialog.  Maybe it's because I have used Windows for too long and have developed Stockholm syndrome, but I like the way it lets me see, and approve, connection attempts.

You must have been a long time POTS modem dialup (or worse on top of
that, AOL) user given your goofy preference to see a dial on demand GUI
box.  xDSL is an "always connected" technology.  There is no reason to
ever "hang up".  Thus, just configure the PPPoE client to stay
connected, or re-connect should the PPPoE session be dropped for any
reason.  And have it do it all in the background.  There's no need for
user interaction, none whatsoever.

Regarding a broadband router, it's not about "need", it's about
convenience and ease of use.  It also adds a layer of security
protection due to NAT and SPI, especially if you've not configured
iptables on Linux to provide a packet firewall.  And, configuring the
firewall features of a broadband router is a helluva lot simpler than
iptables.  I don't use desktop Debian, so I don't know if there is a GUI
iptables configurator.  If there is, you lucked out.  If not, you'll be
spending some time on this list or in Google figuring it out.

There is one plus side to avoiding a broadband router.  You'll learn a
bit more of Linux, though you'll burn copious amounts of time doing so. ;)

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[Kevin Ross-4]

If you want to have your connection be established on bootup, the "Debian
way" is to add your PPP connection to your /etc/network/interfaces file,
like:

auto ppp0
iface ppp0 inet ppp
    provider dsl-provider

Then, in your ppp options, add the "persist" option, which will cause your
connection to automatically reconnect should the connection be lost.  Remove
any "demand", "idle", or "holdoff" options.

For security, you'll want to add a firewall.  I use shorewall myself, and
like it.  The configuration is through text files, but it's leaps and bounds
easier than directly manipulating iptables.

That's how I had it setup before I switched to a DSL provider that used DHCP
instead of PPPoE.  I have since switched again to FIOS, but no changes were
necessary, since they use DHCP as well.

I personally prefer using a Linux machine as the router, and using a
separate wireless access point for wi-fi.  One reason is the flexibility
offered over the WAP/router combo units.  Another is memory.  Bittorrent
will cause many routers to run out of memory.

Hope this helps!
-- Kevin


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H.S.:
> 3. Make a shortcut on everyone's desktop to call the pon command ("sudo
> pon dsl-provider").

Thanks for that suggestion H.S., yes I think my 'guests' could manage that.  I have added my guest accounts to the 'dip' group so the shortcut wouldn't need to use 'sudo'.  However, in light of other replies I think I am probably going to try to go with the 'always connected' option.

Stan Hoeppner:
> Your DSL modem connects to a DSLAM, not POTS.

(*quickly looks up what DSLAM stands for on Wikipedia*)  I knew that :-)

> You must have been a long time POTS modem dialup (or worse on top of
> that, AOL) user given your goofy preference to see a dial on demand GUI
> box.  xDSL is an "always connected" technology.  There is no reason to
> ever "hang up".  Thus, just configure the PPPoE client to stay
> connected, or re-connect should the PPPoE session be dropped for any
> reason.  And have it do it all in the background.  There's no need for
> user interaction, none whatsoever.

Thanks for explaining that, which I wasn't 100% aware of.  I thought maybe some ADSL providers charged by time connected the way they do with dial-up, although I knew mine didn't.  I think maybe you have cured me of my Stockholm syndrome = GUI dialog neediness.

Actually I have been using ADSL a lot longer than I was on dial-up, and no I have never been an AOL customer.  I long ago imbibed the Unix philosophy of 'do one thing and do it well' and I expect my ISP to follow that maxim too.

> Regarding a broadband router, it's not about "need", it's about
> convenience and ease of use.  It also adds a layer of security
> protection due to NAT and SPI, especially if you've not configured
> iptables on Linux to provide a packet firewall.  And, configuring the
> firewall features of a broadband router is a helluva lot simpler than
> iptables.

I don't understand much of this (yet) but it comes back to the fact that (I feel) I have had convenience and ease of use with Windows, and I already have (almost all of) the same level of convenience and ease of use in my Debian installation, with this hardware.  In fact with your comments that I should be connected all the time, and Kevin's advice about how to configure that, I hope to reach an even greater level of ease of use with Debian.

Coming back to what you have written though, it sounds like I'm not really aware of what types of attack I might be vulnerable to with my current setup, running Linux.  Since I imagine that could be quite a big topic please feel free to just provide a link rather than take up more of your time explaining stuff (but if you want to explain that would be great).  On Windows I used a software firewall (ZoneAlarm), does this concept not transfer to Linux?  I was kind of hoping it didn't simply because Unix's intrinsic security made firewalls unnecessary – wishful thinking?

(Aside: I tried to look up what SPI stands for, but Wikipedia lists at least 4 different things in the field of computer networking!  Is it System Packet Interface, Security Parameter Index, Service Package Interpreter, Stateful Package Inspection?)

Kevin Ross:
> If you want to have your connection be established on bootup, the "Debian
> way" is to add your PPP connection to your /etc/network/interfaces file,
> like:

Thanks for that Kevin, I will definitely be trying this as my next line of attack (when I have more time to spend on it).  I will post back to the group with the result.

> Then, in your ppp options, add the "persist" option, which will cause your
> connection to automatically reconnect should the connection be lost.  Remove
> any "demand", "idle", or "holdoff" options.

I already have the 'persist' option.  It was mentioned in the instructions I found to get the DSL modem working in the first place with pon and poff.

> For security, you'll want to add a firewall.  I use shorewall myself, and
> like it.

Thanks, I will look this up.

> That's how I had it setup before I switched to a DSL provider that used DHCP
> instead of PPPoE.

My current ISP uses DHCP – does that change anything you've written?

> Hope this helps!

It definitely sounds like it will, thanks.





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[Klistvud]

Well, another, quite intuitive way of achieving what you want would be
to write a script to launch Iceweasel, and use that script instead of
the Iceweasel icon. In the script, you could type in all the commands
you currently type by hand, then type iceweasel on the next line, and
finally, type all the commands you currently use to disconnect. Then,
you would just make a nice desktop shortcut to the script, with a big
shiny icon, and you're all set and done. The script would execute pon,
launch iceweasel, and when you close iceweasel, it would execute poff.
Can't get much simpler than that. If you just LOVE to have a dialog
(and if you use Gnome), you could also intersperse the script with a
bunch of colorful zenity dialogs (man zenity).

Of course, all this is quite useless if your xADSL is not "pay-per-
minute"; if it's "pay-per-megabyte", then it's best to have it always
on -- that's even cooler than having cool dialogs!

--
Regards,

Klistvud
Certifiable Loonix User #481801


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[Kevin Ross-4]

> From: stephen2eq@... [mailto:stephen2eq@...]
> Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 5:16 AM
>
> My current ISP uses DHCP - does that change anything you've written?
>

Are you absolutely sure of that? ISP's mainly use two different methods of
assigning IP addresses to their customers.  DHCP or PPPoE.  If your ISP uses
PPPoE, then you need to use pppd with a PPPoE plugin.  If they use DHCP,
then you don't use pppd at all.  You just use a DHCP client on your
machiine.  Using pppd won't work at all.

If there's any uncertainty on your part, maybe you could tell us what ISP
you're using, and in what geographic region.


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[Stan Hoeppner]

Kevin Ross put forth on 10/31/2009 4:36 PM:

> If there's any uncertainty on your part, maybe you could tell us what ISP
> you're using, and in what geographic region.

DHCP = username and password _not_ required
DHCP has no concept of security credentials

PPPoE = username and password _required_
PPPoE is all about security credentials

The uneducated may unknowingly assume these two terms refer to the same
thing (they don't), as one important result of both is a dynamically
assigned IP address.  However, the architecture of how each of these
works is quite different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Host_Configuration_Protocol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-to-Point_Protocol_over_Ethernet

Hope this helps.

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Klistvud:
> Well, another, quite intuitive way of achieving what you want would be
> to write a script to launch Iceweasel

Good idea, should have thought of that myself.  On reflection though, although my guests will only want to use iceweasel, I occasionally use other internet programs such as ftp, filezilla and even telnet and ping, so that would still not be as useful as demand dialling, or being connected all the time as you later suggest.

Kevin Ross:
> Are you absolutely sure of that?.ISP's mainly use two different methods of
> assigning IP addresses to their customers.  DHCP or PPPoE.  If your ISP uses
> PPPoE, then you need to use pppd with a PPPoE plugin.  If they use DHCP,
> then you don't use pppd at all.  You just use a DHCP client on your
> machiine.  Using pppd won't work at all.

No not absolutely sure, I just assumed that was what was being used as I get different IP addresses every time I connect.  I am pretty sure pppd IS working, which from what you write suggests I am not using DHCP.  However I vaguely remember that when I was getting the link to work I read that I was using something called pppoa rather than pppoe, and indeed putting the following line in my /etc/ppp/peers/provider file was important to getting the link working:

  plugin pppoatm.so 0.38

(My provider is Tiscali in the U.K.)





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