Pager/switcher per workspace or per screen

[Thomas Thurman]

Metacity has had a number of requests to allow alt-Tab to show all
windows on the current screen and not just the windows on the current
workspace/desktop:

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143511

The pager already has this ability, but has no way to communicate it
to the WM. It seems that the best way to deal with this is a new EWMH
hint so that it can be done in a cross-WM way.

I think this is closely allied to desktop arrangements, and propose
that the currently unused data.l[1] in _NET_NUMBER_OF_DESKTOPS be 1 if
switching should be per screen, and 0 (the default, as at present) if
it should be per workspace/desktop. The patches given on the bug above
are a basic implementation this (which still has a few bugs), and
there is also a program to switch between switching per workspace and
per screen.

I'd like feedback on whether this is the best way or whether it would
be better to introduce a whole new hint.

peace

T
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[Mark Tiefenbruck]

Pardon my bluntness, but this seems like utter nonsense. What does
window switching have to do with _NET_NUMBER_OF_DESKTOPS? Why is the
pager controlling or even interested in the behavior of alt-tab? Even
supposing that makes sense, if a pager wants alt-tab to behave in a
cross-wm way, then it should implement alt-tab itself. All it needs is
a list of windows in MRU order, which should be available for window
manager restarts, anyway.

  Mark

On 8/7/07, Thomas Thurman <thomas@...> wrote:

> Metacity has had a number of requests to allow alt-Tab to show all
> windows on the current screen and not just the windows on the current
> workspace/desktop:
>
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143511
>
> The pager already has this ability, but has no way to communicate it
> to the WM. It seems that the best way to deal with this is a new EWMH
> hint so that it can be done in a cross-WM way.
>
> I think this is closely allied to desktop arrangements, and propose
> that the currently unused data.l[1] in _NET_NUMBER_OF_DESKTOPS be 1 if
> switching should be per screen, and 0 (the default, as at present) if
> it should be per workspace/desktop. The patches given on the bug above
> are a basic implementation this (which still has a few bugs), and
> there is also a program to switch between switching per workspace and
> per screen.
>
> I'd like feedback on whether this is the best way or whether it would
> be better to introduce a whole new hint.
>
> peace
>
> T
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[Thomas Thurman]

On 08/08/07, Mark Tiefenbruck <mark@...> wrote:
> Pardon my bluntness, but this seems like utter nonsense. What does
> window switching have to do with _NET_NUMBER_OF_DESKTOPS?

That's what I'm asking, more or less. There isn't a hint which was
particularly close to what I was talking about; perhaps we need a
whole new hint for this instead.

> Why is the
> pager controlling or even interested in the behavior of alt-tab?

The pager is not necessarily controlling the behaviour of alt-tab. It
might be worthwhile for the pager and the WM to communicate about
whether windows from all workspaces should be shown or just the
current workspace, and in fact we have had a nontrivial number of
people requesting this behaviour. There's no sane place to do this
other than using EWMH-style hints.

> Even
> supposing that makes sense, if a pager wants alt-tab to behave in a
> cross-wm way, then it should implement alt-tab itself.

No, because alt-tab should be implemented by the window manager.
Allowing a pager to become a window manager is a recipe for pain.

Thomas
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[Mark Tiefenbruck]

> > Pardon my bluntness, but this seems like utter nonsense. What does
> > window switching have to do with _NET_NUMBER_OF_DESKTOPS?
>
> That's what I'm asking, more or less. There isn't a hint which was
> particularly close to what I was talking about; perhaps we need a
> whole new hint for this instead.

I think that would be better.

> > Why is the
> > pager controlling or even interested in the behavior of alt-tab?
>
> The pager is not necessarily controlling the behaviour of alt-tab. It
> might be worthwhile for the pager and the WM to communicate about
> whether windows from all workspaces should be shown or just the
> current workspace, and in fact we have had a nontrivial number of
> people requesting this behaviour. There's no sane place to do this
> other than using EWMH-style hints.

I've seen requests for alt-tab to allow switching between all managed
windows on the screen. I still don't see what this has to do with the
pager. Certainly the pager is showing all workspaces, anyway, or else
it's not much of a pager. Why would the window manager and pager need
to communicate at all regarding alt-tab? I don't see any possible
benefit.

> > Even
> > supposing that makes sense, if a pager wants alt-tab to behave in a
> > cross-wm way, then it should implement alt-tab itself.
>
> No, because alt-tab should be implemented by the window manager.
> Allowing a pager to become a window manager is a recipe for pain.

I don't see why it must be implemented by the window manager. For
instance, I see http://code.google.com/p/superswitcher/ as a perfectly
reasonable application. These sorts of programs are exactly what EWMH
is for, in my opinion.

  Mark
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[Thomas Thurman]

On 08/08/07, Mark Tiefenbruck <mark@...> wrote:

> On 08/08/07, Thomas Thurman <thomas@...> wrote:
> > The pager is not necessarily controlling the behaviour of alt-tab. It
> > might be worthwhile for the pager and the WM to communicate about
> > whether windows from all workspaces should be shown or just the
> > current workspace, and in fact we have had a nontrivial number of
> > people requesting this behaviour. There's no sane place to do this
> > other than using EWMH-style hints.
>
> I've seen requests for alt-tab to allow switching between all managed
> windows on the screen. I still don't see what this has to do with the
> pager.

The window list can show all managed windows, or just the ones on the
current workspace. Alt-tab can show all managed windows, or just the
ones on the current workspace. Havoc[1] and Rob Adams[2] at least
thought these were two sides of the same coin, and that nobody would
want to turn one on without the other. Perhaps they were wrong, I
don't know. (Daniel Seifert disagreed. [3])

[1] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143511#c0
[2] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=131702#c1
[3] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143511#c9

> Certainly the pager is showing all workspaces, anyway, or else
> it's not much of a pager.

The window list isn't showing all workspaces, though. Sorry for any confusion.

> > No, because alt-tab should be implemented by the window manager.
> > Allowing a pager to become a window manager is a recipe for pain.
>
> I don't see why it must be implemented by the window manager.

Well, no, I don't think it's set in stone anywhere, but I don't recall
running into many arrangements where it wasn't implemented by the WM.

> For
> instance, I see http://code.google.com/p/superswitcher/ as a perfectly
> reasonable application. These sorts of programs are exactly what EWMH
> is for, in my opinion.

You don't think EWMH is also for allowing parts of a desktop
environment to communicate interchangeably?

T
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[Mark Tiefenbruck]

> The window list isn't showing all workspaces, though. Sorry for any confusion.

O.K. I think we just have a lack of common definitions here. To me, a
pager is just the display of workspaces and what windows are on them.
The window list applet in gnome-panel, for me, falls under the
category of toolbar.

Anyway, if that's what you plan on integrating, then I can definitely
see the value in that. I don't think you could easily cram all of the
possible options for alt-tab into one window hint (for instance, I
have a keybinding for "if no firefox window is open, open one, or else
cycle through all open firefox windows"). I would suggest something
along the lines of a window hint for the toolbar listing all of the
windows it's displaying.

> > > No, because alt-tab should be implemented by the window manager.
> > > Allowing a pager to become a window manager is a recipe for pain.
> >
> > I don't see why it must be implemented by the window manager.
>
> Well, no, I don't think it's set in stone anywhere, but I don't recall
> running into many arrangements where it wasn't implemented by the WM.

Blackbox's is implemented in the program bbkeys. And, of course, twm
doesn't have alt-tab at all, so anybody using that would have to use
something like superswitcher (if twm even implements EWMH).

> > For
> > instance, I see http://code.google.com/p/superswitcher/ as a perfectly
> > reasonable application. These sorts of programs are exactly what EWMH
> > is for, in my opinion.
>
> You don't think EWMH is also for allowing parts of a desktop
> environment to communicate interchangeably?

Yeah, but that's boring. What interests me is that people can write
new programs (or just shell scripts with wmctrl or devilspie) to solve
problems and distribute it to people using a wide variety of window
managers.

  Mark
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[Sanel Zukan]

Hi,

I will still ask the same question as Mark did, how alt-tab behaviour is
related to the pager? At the end, isn't pager supposed to be something
like alt-tab on steroids?

Showing all windows at alt-tab window, for me, looks like an option for wm,
not something that should everyone use. An option, just like setting
titlebar instead at the top of window, to it's bottom.

AFAIK, alt-tab behaviour isn't even defined in EWMH (correct me if I'm
wrong), so if things are going in this direction, let define it first.
Of course, some of today wm's does not implement it at all, relaying on
pager, and this could be major argument against alt-tab implementation.

> You don't think EWMH is also for allowing parts of a desktop
> environment to communicate interchangeably?

IMHO EWMH is supposed to allow _basic_ unified communication either
between standalone wm and foreign apps or desktop itself. On other
hand, the same EWMH is too weak for full desktop needs, because those
needs are vary between desktops.

Best,
--
Sanel
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[Lubos Lunak]

On Wednesday 08 of August 2007, Sanel Zukan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I will still ask the same question as Mark did, how alt-tab behaviour is
> related to the pager? At the end, isn't pager supposed to be something
> like alt-tab on steroids?
>
> Showing all windows at alt-tab window, for me, looks like an option for wm,
> not something that should everyone use. An option, just like setting
> titlebar instead at the top of window, to it's bottom.

 I'd agree here, I don't think such option belongs to the spec. I, for
example, use Alt+Tab constrained to the current desktop, but the taskbar
lists all windows. Or, also, if there would be one shortcut for showing only
current desktop and another for showing all windows, what should this option
be set to?

> AFAIK, alt-tab behaviour isn't even defined in EWMH (correct me if I'm
> wrong), so if things are going in this direction, let define it first.
> Of course, some of today wm's does not implement it at all, relaying on
> pager, and this could be major argument against alt-tab implementation.

--
Lubos Lunak
KDE developer
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