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Please post this job listing on the mailing list...
by Weinstein Amy
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Freelance job opportunity with small non-profit (501c3) organization dedicated to funding children's brain tumor research. Experience required includes Drupal 5, 6 and 7. HTML, SQL, PHP. Position is part time and would require upgrade of existing website from Drupal 5 to Drupal 7. Also, transfer of site from existing host to Drupal Gardens. After upgrade is complete, ongoing maintenance (10 hours/week) would be welcomed. Please respond ASAP to amy@...
Thanks! _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility (was: Please post this job listing on the mailing list...)
by Christian Pearce-7
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(Please don't turn this thread into garbage. Which tends to happen from time to time.)
Hi Amy, I don't want this to necessarily be about you or turn you off from our list. So please accept my advanced apologizes if it does. I wanted to get people's thoughts on upgrade versus rebuild from a cost perspective. Seems to me going from 5 -> 7 would require going to 6 first. Upgrades are never smooth. Having to go from 5 -> 6 and the 6 -> 7 would be effectively paying for 2 upgrades. What are the pro's of upgrading? 1. Site content comes along for the ride. What are the con's? 1. More expensive then a rebuild 2. Might be forced to redo functionality Seems to me in either case you need to upgrade the theme to work in 7. And you are more then likely finding replacement modules for existing functionality. So if you are already forced to redo functionality, might as well put the money towards a refresh. Further I would venture to say on small sites it would be more worth while to redo functionality and redo the content by hand. Please lets have a healthy, no flame, honest and open opinions discussion. Also please don't talk ill of Amy's request. I am sure several non-profits are in her shoes. And I would suspect budget is limited. Hence my reason for bringing it up. What is going to be the most cost effect. ----- "Weinstein Amy" <amy@...> wrote: > From: "Weinstein Amy" <amy@...> > To: consulting@... > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:46:58 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: [consulting] Please post this job listing on the mailing list... > > Freelance job opportunity with small non-profit (501c3) organization > dedicated to funding children's brain tumor research. Experience > required includes Drupal 5, 6 and 7. HTML, SQL, PHP. Position is > part time and would require upgrade of existing website from Drupal 5 > to Drupal 7. Also, transfer of site from existing host to Drupal > Gardens. After upgrade is complete, ongoing maintenance (10 > hours/week) would be welcomed. Please respond ASAP to > amy@... > > > Thanks! > > > _______________________________________________ > consulting mailing list > consulting@... > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting -- xforty technologies Christian Pearce 888-231-9331 x1119 http://xforty.com _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by samtresler
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I'm not sure I agree with this. It depends on what/how the site was
built originally. I've upgraded simple sites along that path (5 to 6, then 6 to 7) in less than a day. More complex sites or sites that weren't built properly in the first place, the assertion that rebuilt is cheaper may be true. I don't think this is a blanket statement that you can say until we know more details about the site. Upgrading themes is fairly simple if you follow the well published step by step guides. I guess my main point is "Upgrades are never smooth" is not the case. Frequently they are, and when they aren't it's generally due to problems that need to be fixed regardless of the upgrade. Regards, Sam Tresler On 02/13/2012 10:45 AM, Christian Pearce wrote: > (Please don't turn this thread into garbage. Which tends to happen from time to time.) > > Hi Amy, I don't want this to necessarily be about you or turn you off from our list. So please accept my advanced apologizes if it does. > > I wanted to get people's thoughts on upgrade versus rebuild from a cost perspective. Seems to me going from 5 -> 7 would require going to 6 first. Upgrades are never smooth. Having to go from 5 -> 6 and the 6 -> 7 would be effectively paying for 2 upgrades. > > What are the pro's of upgrading? > > 1. Site content comes along for the ride. > > What are the con's? > > 1. More expensive then a rebuild > 2. Might be forced to redo functionality > > Seems to me in either case you need to upgrade the theme to work in 7. And you are more then likely finding replacement modules for existing functionality. So if you are already forced to redo functionality, might as well put the money towards a refresh. Further I would venture to say on small sites it would be more worth while to redo functionality and redo the content by hand. > > Please lets have a healthy, no flame, honest and open opinions discussion. Also please don't talk ill of Amy's request. I am sure several non-profits are in her shoes. And I would suspect budget is limited. Hence my reason for bringing it up. What is going to be the most cost effect. > > > > ----- "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> wrote: > >> From: "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> >> To: consulting@... >> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:46:58 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >> Subject: [consulting] Please post this job listing on the mailing list... >> >> Freelance job opportunity with small non-profit (501c3) organization >> dedicated to funding children's brain tumor research. Experience >> required includes Drupal 5, 6 and 7. HTML, SQL, PHP. Position is >> part time and would require upgrade of existing website from Drupal 5 >> to Drupal 7. Also, transfer of site from existing host to Drupal >> Gardens. After upgrade is complete, ongoing maintenance (10 >> hours/week) would be welcomed. Please respond ASAP to >> amy@... >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> consulting mailing list >> consulting@... >> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting > consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility (was: Please post this job listing on the mailing list...)
by Michael Hofmockel
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Christian is correct.
Simply said, I recommend rebuilding directly on Drupal Gardens and importing your content. This is the cheapest route to Drupal 7 and lands you on a system that lowers your overhead by off loading system maintenance to Drupal Gardens. FYI: I recommend Drupal Gardens but it has limitations as you can not install your own modules. This might very well be the kind of controlled system you need. Unless you are doing something very unique, suspect not, Drupal Gardens is a good solution for your needs. Regards, Michael Hofmockel http://drupal.org/user/20694 515.450.9416 Open Source | Open Access | Open Mind On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Christian Pearce <pearcec@...> wrote: (Please don't turn this thread into garbage. Which tends to happen from time to time.) _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by Christian Pearce-7
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Points well taken. What ruler do we use to decide quickly if it is a simple site that is could be upgraded easily? Sort of doing the upgrade to see if it works. For example are you using CCK and views? If so then no it isn't worth it? Or how much content do you have? Part of providing value as a consultant is knowing when we should and when we shouldn't do something for a customer unless they say we don't care do it our way.
----- "Sam Tresler" <sam@...> wrote: > From: "Sam Tresler" <sam@...> > To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers" <consulting@...> > Cc: "Christian Pearce" <pearcec@...> > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:08:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [consulting] Feasibility > > I'm not sure I agree with this. It depends on what/how the site was > built originally. I've upgraded simple sites along that path (5 to 6, > > then 6 to 7) in less than a day. More complex sites or sites that > weren't built properly in the first place, the assertion that rebuilt > is > cheaper may be true. I don't think this is a blanket statement that > you > can say until we know more details about the site. > > Upgrading themes is fairly simple if you follow the well published > step > by step guides. > > I guess my main point is "Upgrades are never smooth" is not the case. > > Frequently they are, and when they aren't it's generally due to > problems > that need to be fixed regardless of the upgrade. > > Regards, > Sam Tresler > > On 02/13/2012 10:45 AM, Christian Pearce wrote: > > (Please don't turn this thread into garbage. Which tends to happen > from time to time.) > > > > Hi Amy, I don't want this to necessarily be about you or turn you > off from our list. So please accept my advanced apologizes if it > does. > > > > I wanted to get people's thoughts on upgrade versus rebuild from a > cost perspective. Seems to me going from 5 -> 7 would require going > to 6 first. Upgrades are never smooth. Having to go from 5 -> 6 and > the 6 -> 7 would be effectively paying for 2 upgrades. > > > > What are the pro's of upgrading? > > > > 1. Site content comes along for the ride. > > > > What are the con's? > > > > 1. More expensive then a rebuild > > 2. Might be forced to redo functionality > > > > Seems to me in either case you need to upgrade the theme to work in > 7. And you are more then likely finding replacement modules for > existing functionality. So if you are already forced to redo > functionality, might as well put the money towards a refresh. Further > I would venture to say on small sites it would be more worth while to > redo functionality and redo the content by hand. > > > > Please lets have a healthy, no flame, honest and open opinions > discussion. Also please don't talk ill of Amy's request. I am sure > several non-profits are in her shoes. And I would suspect budget is > limited. Hence my reason for bringing it up. What is going to be the > most cost effect. > > > > > > > > ----- "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> wrote: > > > >> From: "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> > >> To: consulting@... > >> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:46:58 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > Eastern > >> Subject: [consulting] Please post this job listing on the mailing > list... > >> > >> Freelance job opportunity with small non-profit (501c3) > organization > >> dedicated to funding children's brain tumor research. Experience > >> required includes Drupal 5, 6 and 7. HTML, SQL, PHP. Position is > >> part time and would require upgrade of existing website from Drupal > 5 > >> to Drupal 7. Also, transfer of site from existing host to Drupal > >> Gardens. After upgrade is complete, ongoing maintenance (10 > >> hours/week) would be welcomed. Please respond ASAP to > >> amy@... > >> > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> consulting mailing list > >> consulting@... > >> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting > > -- xforty technologies Christian Pearce 888-231-9331 x1119 http://xforty.com _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by samtresler
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" Part of providing value as a consultant is knowing when we should and
when we shouldn't do something for a customer unless they say we don't care do it our way." Right. And as a consultant we probably shouldn't be making blanket recommendations without assessing the actual situation first. In my experience it is a rare site that actually needs a rebuild. Why would we bother with an upgrade path at all if that weren't the case? These instances stand out in our mind because that's A) usually when they call the consultants in, and B) They're a giant PITA. But as far as 'always being more cost effective to rebuild' I think that is very far off the mark. And not a good or true impression to leave a client with. Regards, Sam Tresler On 02/13/2012 11:21 AM, Christian Pearce wrote: > Points well taken. What ruler do we use to decide quickly if it is a simple site that is could be upgraded easily? Sort of doing the upgrade to see if it works. For example are you using CCK and views? If so then no it isn't worth it? Or how much content do you have? Part of providing value as a consultant is knowing when we should and when we shouldn't do something for a customer unless they say we don't care do it our way. > > > > ----- "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> wrote: > >> From: "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> >> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers"<consulting@...> >> Cc: "Christian Pearce"<pearcec@...> >> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:08:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >> Subject: Re: [consulting] Feasibility >> >> I'm not sure I agree with this. It depends on what/how the site was >> built originally. I've upgraded simple sites along that path (5 to 6, >> >> then 6 to 7) in less than a day. More complex sites or sites that >> weren't built properly in the first place, the assertion that rebuilt >> is >> cheaper may be true. I don't think this is a blanket statement that >> you >> can say until we know more details about the site. >> >> Upgrading themes is fairly simple if you follow the well published >> step >> by step guides. >> >> I guess my main point is "Upgrades are never smooth" is not the case. >> >> Frequently they are, and when they aren't it's generally due to >> problems >> that need to be fixed regardless of the upgrade. >> >> Regards, >> Sam Tresler >> >> On 02/13/2012 10:45 AM, Christian Pearce wrote: >>> (Please don't turn this thread into garbage. Which tends to happen >> from time to time.) >>> >>> Hi Amy, I don't want this to necessarily be about you or turn you >> off from our list. So please accept my advanced apologizes if it >> does. >>> >>> I wanted to get people's thoughts on upgrade versus rebuild from a >> cost perspective. Seems to me going from 5 -> 7 would require going >> to 6 first. Upgrades are never smooth. Having to go from 5 -> 6 and >> the 6 -> 7 would be effectively paying for 2 upgrades. >>> >>> What are the pro's of upgrading? >>> >>> 1. Site content comes along for the ride. >>> >>> What are the con's? >>> >>> 1. More expensive then a rebuild >>> 2. Might be forced to redo functionality >>> >>> Seems to me in either case you need to upgrade the theme to work in >> 7. And you are more then likely finding replacement modules for >> existing functionality. So if you are already forced to redo >> functionality, might as well put the money towards a refresh. Further >> I would venture to say on small sites it would be more worth while to >> redo functionality and redo the content by hand. >>> >>> Please lets have a healthy, no flame, honest and open opinions >> discussion. Also please don't talk ill of Amy's request. I am sure >> several non-profits are in her shoes. And I would suspect budget is >> limited. Hence my reason for bringing it up. What is going to be the >> most cost effect. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> wrote: >>> >>>> From: "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> >>>> To: consulting@... >>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:46:58 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >> Eastern >>>> Subject: [consulting] Please post this job listing on the mailing >> list... >>>> >>>> Freelance job opportunity with small non-profit (501c3) >> organization >>>> dedicated to funding children's brain tumor research. Experience >>>> required includes Drupal 5, 6 and 7. HTML, SQL, PHP. Position is >>>> part time and would require upgrade of existing website from Drupal >> 5 >>>> to Drupal 7. Also, transfer of site from existing host to Drupal >>>> Gardens. After upgrade is complete, ongoing maintenance (10 >>>> hours/week) would be welcomed. Please respond ASAP to >>>> amy@... >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> consulting mailing list >>>> consulting@... >>>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting >>> > consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by Marilyn Langfeld
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Another point to consider: Themes are not importable into DrupalGardens. DrupalGardens does have a fantastic Theme Builder, so it might be feasible to develop a new one that is fairly similar. And in any case, a theme would need a fair amount of modification going from D5 to D6.
I encourage small businesses/orgs to consider DrupalGardens. It's very affordable, has a great community and superb support. Perfect if your site is not too complex (due to limitations of the modules offered).
Best, Marilyn
_______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Please post this job listing on the mailing list...
by Michael Hofmockel
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A module list and node count would go far in measuring the complexity of a site. Landing on Drupal Gardens is the thing that throws a wrench in this. You can only use the module they have provided and can't add any others. Drupal Gardens is SAAS and you get what's in the box and nothing more. Drupal Gardens is a good choice for many clients. Going through upgrades how ever easy will still have to be merged into Drupal Gardens which has several modules that are not available in Drupal 5 or 6.
A blanket statement has value when the client can't afford to pay for a proper discovery. Is this the case? I don't know. Regards, Michael Hofmockel http://drupal.org/user/20694 515.450.9416 Open Source | Open Access | Open Mind On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Weinstein Amy <amy@...> wrote: Freelance job opportunity with small non-profit (501c3) organization dedicated to funding children's brain tumor research. Experience required includes Drupal 5, 6 and 7. HTML, SQL, PHP. Position is part time and would require upgrade of existing website from Drupal 5 to Drupal 7. Also, transfer of site from existing host to Drupal Gardens. After upgrade is complete, ongoing maintenance (10 hours/week) would be welcomed. Please respond ASAP to amy@... _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by Ms. Nancy Wichmann
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I have done the upgrades both ways (5->6 + 6->7 as well as rebuilds). For me, it's largely a toss up, but I am finding more and more that sites still on 5 are there because it was difficult to go to 6, therefore will be difficult to get to 7. So, I am now approaching all D5 sites as though they are most likely going to need rebuilding. I have one major D5 site left currently, and I know it is going to be a rebuild of epic proportions (other bids have run in excess of $100K). But while we're at it, the site also needs a significant redesign, so we might as well bite the bullet and do it all together. Also, having experienced going in behind someone that didn't know what they were doing makes rebuilding a higher likelihood. Nancy Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Dr. Martin L. King, Jr.
_______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by Vivek Khurana-2
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On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Ms. Nancy Wichmann
<nan_wich@...> wrote: > I have done the upgrades both ways (5->6 + 6->7 as well as rebuilds). For > me, it's largely a toss up, but I am finding more and more that sites still > on 5 are there because it was difficult to go to 6, therefore will be > difficult to get to 7. So, I am now approaching all D5 sites as though they > are most likely going to need rebuilding. I have one major D5 site left > currently, and I know it is going to be a rebuild of epic proportions (other > bids have run in excess of $100K). But while we're at it, the site also > needs a significant redesign, so we might as well bite the bullet and do it > all together. I recently did a D5 to D7 migration for a fairly large news site and it wasnt difficult, took us about 2 weeks to migrate all content types. regards Vivek -- The hidden harmony is better than the obvious!! _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by Steve Yelvington
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Having been through a ton of news and community site upgrade/migrations
going all the way back to our first use of Drupal 4.5 in 2005, I can say this: 1. It depends. 2. Core tends to be easy. 3. Contrib can be highly unpredictable. 4. There usually are better ways to do X, Y or Z than the way you did it in the earlier site. #3 and especially #4 have led us toward a pattern of "build clean, then port the data" rather than running update.php and hoping for success. _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by Ashraf Amayreh-2
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Some sites can be upgraded, others cannot. Upgrading is an
exploratory process in my opinion. This should be clearly conveyed
to the client.
I would agree that unless the website is quite simple, putting it on Drupal Gardens is not an option due to the limited modules and inability to quickly grow a site on demand in the future. As for the client, you can simply check their website (changelog.txt, view page source, etc), this should give you some hints on the nature of the upgrade: http://fightplga.org/ Best Regards, --
Ashraf Amayreh CEO | O-Minds Cell. 962 78 8099997 Tel. 962 6 5655150 Skype: aamayreh www.o-minds.com web development | web design user experience | branding design Connect with us on Twitter or LinkedIn. _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by Weinstein Amy
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Thank you so much for your thoughtful comments and ideas.
It is true that the writer of the job description (me) is NOT a techie and so does NOT necessarily know the most accurate way to phrase the request. So, this is where my new consultant comes to my rescue! I do not have a definitive way I want to do this project (sorry if it sounded like I did in my original post). I just know one thing…I am currently using Drupal 5 and I need to be using Drupal 7. Also, I am using GoDaddy as a host, but I want to be using Drupal Gardens. Someone mentioned the 'discovery' stage…and yes, it is true that I do not have a large budget and so I was hoping to minimize this stage given the information above. But of course, I would respect the decision of the consultant in terms of how to proceed and recognize that some discovery would be necessary to assess the most cost and time efficient way to manage this process. Again, thanks so much for your perspective…I'm learning a lot and I know that the outcome will be worth the effort to find the right solution. Now if I could just find someone who wants to do the work...….. Amy J. Weinstein 98 Random Farms Drive, Chappaqua, NY 10514 Phone/Fax: 914-762-3494 -----www.fightplga.org amy@... "PLGA Children should fight for their dreams, not for their lives." On Feb 13, 2012, at 12:10 PM, Vivek Khurana wrote: > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Ms. Nancy Wichmann > <nan_wich@...> wrote: >> I have done the upgrades both ways (5->6 + 6->7 as well as rebuilds). For >> me, it's largely a toss up, but I am finding more and more that sites still >> on 5 are there because it was difficult to go to 6, therefore will be >> difficult to get to 7. So, I am now approaching all D5 sites as though they >> are most likely going to need rebuilding. I have one major D5 site left >> currently, and I know it is going to be a rebuild of epic proportions (other >> bids have run in excess of $100K). But while we're at it, the site also >> needs a significant redesign, so we might as well bite the bullet and do it >> all together. > > I recently did a D5 to D7 migration for a fairly large news site and > it wasnt difficult, took us about 2 weeks to migrate all content > types. > > regards > Vivek > > -- > The hidden harmony is better than the obvious!! > _______________________________________________ > consulting mailing list > consulting@... > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by samtresler
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I have found myself in a the middle of an upgrade where I thought it
might be easier to rebuild, but only when it was built incorrectly in the first place or given modules are end of life or replaceable by something better. I think that is an important distinction to make because in those cases we are really talking about 2 streams of work. The upgrade, and fixing what is broken or needs replacement, which may require rebuilding sections. So, my point is upgrading is rarely a cause for rebuild, however, rebuilds sometimes need to happen and concurrently with upgrade could be convenient. Hope that makes sense. I'm not really sure what third party modules are inherently difficult to upgrade across major versions that don't provide clear upgrade paths. Could anyone provide a specific that they've had issues with? -S >> From: "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> >> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers"<consulting@...> >> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:26:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >> Subject: Re: [consulting] Feasibility >> >> " Part of providing value as a consultant is knowing when we should >> and >> when we shouldn't do something for a customer unless they say we don't >> >> care do it our way." >> >> Right. And as a consultant we probably shouldn't be making blanket >> recommendations without assessing the actual situation first. >> > > Right that is why I said "points well taken." I was simply offering my opinion and thoughts to see what others were. > >> In my experience it is a rare site that actually needs a rebuild. Why >> >> would we bother with an upgrade path at all if that weren't the case? >> > > I am speaking specifically to third party modules that don't upgrade well. > >> These instances stand out in our mind because that's A) usually when >> they call the consultants in, and B) They're a giant PITA. But as far >> as >> 'always being more cost effective to rebuild' I think that is very far >> > > You are paraphrasing me. I didn't say always. > >> off the mark. And not a good or true impression to leave a client >> with. >> > > So have you ever found yourself in the middle of a complicated upgrade were you thought, huh, might have been better to just start from scratch? > >> Regards, >> Sam Tresler >> >> On 02/13/2012 11:21 AM, Christian Pearce wrote: >>> Points well taken. What ruler do we use to decide quickly if it is >> a simple site that is could be upgraded easily? Sort of doing the >> upgrade to see if it works. For example are you using CCK and views? >> If so then no it isn't worth it? Or how much content do you have? >> Part of providing value as a consultant is knowing when we should and >> when we shouldn't do something for a customer unless they say we don't >> care do it our way. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> wrote: >>> >>>> From: "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> >>>> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting >> providers"<consulting@...> >>>> Cc: "Christian Pearce"<pearcec@...> >>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:08:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >> Eastern >>>> Subject: Re: [consulting] Feasibility >>>> >>>> I'm not sure I agree with this. It depends on what/how the site >> was >>>> built originally. I've upgraded simple sites along that path (5 to >> 6, >>>> >>>> then 6 to 7) in less than a day. More complex sites or sites that >>>> weren't built properly in the first place, the assertion that >> rebuilt >>>> is >>>> cheaper may be true. I don't think this is a blanket statement >> that >>>> you >>>> can say until we know more details about the site. >>>> >>>> Upgrading themes is fairly simple if you follow the well published >>>> step >>>> by step guides. >>>> >>>> I guess my main point is "Upgrades are never smooth" is not the >> case. >>>> >>>> Frequently they are, and when they aren't it's generally due to >>>> problems >>>> that need to be fixed regardless of the upgrade. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Sam Tresler >>>> >>>> On 02/13/2012 10:45 AM, Christian Pearce wrote: >>>>> (Please don't turn this thread into garbage. Which tends to >> happen >>>> from time to time.) >>>>> >>>>> Hi Amy, I don't want this to necessarily be about you or turn you >>>> off from our list. So please accept my advanced apologizes if it >>>> does. >>>>> >>>>> I wanted to get people's thoughts on upgrade versus rebuild from >> a >>>> cost perspective. Seems to me going from 5 -> 7 would require >> going >>>> to 6 first. Upgrades are never smooth. Having to go from 5 -> 6 >> and >>>> the 6 -> 7 would be effectively paying for 2 upgrades. >>>>> >>>>> What are the pro's of upgrading? >>>>> >>>>> 1. Site content comes along for the ride. >>>>> >>>>> What are the con's? >>>>> >>>>> 1. More expensive then a rebuild >>>>> 2. Might be forced to redo functionality >>>>> >>>>> Seems to me in either case you need to upgrade the theme to work >> in >>>> 7. And you are more then likely finding replacement modules for >>>> existing functionality. So if you are already forced to redo >>>> functionality, might as well put the money towards a refresh. >> Further >>>> I would venture to say on small sites it would be more worth while >> to >>>> redo functionality and redo the content by hand. >>>>> >>>>> Please lets have a healthy, no flame, honest and open opinions >>>> discussion. Also please don't talk ill of Amy's request. I am >> sure >>>> several non-profits are in her shoes. And I would suspect budget >> is >>>> limited. Hence my reason for bringing it up. What is going to be >> the >>>> most cost effect. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From: "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> >>>>>> To: consulting@... >>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:46:58 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >>>> Eastern >>>>>> Subject: [consulting] Please post this job listing on the >> mailing >>>> list... >>>>>> >>>>>> Freelance job opportunity with small non-profit (501c3) >>>> organization >>>>>> dedicated to funding children's brain tumor research. >> Experience >>>>>> required includes Drupal 5, 6 and 7. HTML, SQL, PHP. Position >> is >>>>>> part time and would require upgrade of existing website from >> Drupal >>>> 5 >>>>>> to Drupal 7. Also, transfer of site from existing host to >> Drupal >>>>>> Gardens. After upgrade is complete, ongoing maintenance (10 >>>>>> hours/week) would be welcomed. Please respond ASAP to >>>>>> amy@... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> consulting mailing list >>>>>> consulting@... >>>>>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting >>>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> consulting mailing list >> consulting@... >> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting > consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by Christian Pearce-7
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----- "Sam Tresler" <sam@...> wrote: > From: "Sam Tresler" <sam@...> > To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers" <consulting@...> > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 3:52:53 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [consulting] Feasibility > > I have found myself in a the middle of an upgrade where I thought it > might be easier to rebuild, but only when it was built incorrectly in > That is an excellent point. We rarely have people come to us with an upgrade were the site is very well built. (I am going to generalize). Typically people come to us unsatisfied with the past performance of their existing developer. When we look under the hood we see why. I guess I just assume it isn't going to be well built. > > > > >> From: "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> > >> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting > providers"<consulting@...> > >> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:26:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > Eastern > >> Subject: Re: [consulting] Feasibility > >> > >> " Part of providing value as a consultant is knowing when we > should > >> and > >> when we shouldn't do something for a customer unless they say we > don't > >> > >> care do it our way." > >> > >> Right. And as a consultant we probably shouldn't be making blanket > >> recommendations without assessing the actual situation first. > >> > > > > Right that is why I said "points well taken." I was simply offering > my opinion and thoughts to see what others were. > > > >> In my experience it is a rare site that actually needs a rebuild. > Why > >> > >> would we bother with an upgrade path at all if that weren't the > case? > >> > > > > I am speaking specifically to third party modules that don't upgrade > well. > > > >> These instances stand out in our mind because that's A) usually > when > >> they call the consultants in, and B) They're a giant PITA. But as > far > >> as > >> 'always being more cost effective to rebuild' I think that is very > far > >> > > > > You are paraphrasing me. I didn't say always. > > > >> off the mark. And not a good or true impression to leave a client > >> with. > >> > > > > So have you ever found yourself in the middle of a complicated > upgrade were you thought, huh, might have been better to just start > from scratch? > > > >> Regards, > >> Sam Tresler > >> > >> On 02/13/2012 11:21 AM, Christian Pearce wrote: > >>> Points well taken. What ruler do we use to decide quickly if it > is > >> a simple site that is could be upgraded easily? Sort of doing the > >> upgrade to see if it works. For example are you using CCK and > views? > >> If so then no it isn't worth it? Or how much content do you have? > >> Part of providing value as a consultant is knowing when we should > and > >> when we shouldn't do something for a customer unless they say we > don't > >> care do it our way. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> wrote: > >>> > >>>> From: "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> > >>>> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting > >> providers"<consulting@...> > >>>> Cc: "Christian Pearce"<pearcec@...> > >>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:08:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > >> Eastern > >>>> Subject: Re: [consulting] Feasibility > >>>> > >>>> I'm not sure I agree with this. It depends on what/how the site > >> was > >>>> built originally. I've upgraded simple sites along that path (5 > to > >> 6, > >>>> > >>>> then 6 to 7) in less than a day. More complex sites or sites > that > >>>> weren't built properly in the first place, the assertion that > >> rebuilt > >>>> is > >>>> cheaper may be true. I don't think this is a blanket statement > >> that > >>>> you > >>>> can say until we know more details about the site. > >>>> > >>>> Upgrading themes is fairly simple if you follow the well > published > >>>> step > >>>> by step guides. > >>>> > >>>> I guess my main point is "Upgrades are never smooth" is not the > >> case. > >>>> > >>>> Frequently they are, and when they aren't it's generally due to > >>>> problems > >>>> that need to be fixed regardless of the upgrade. > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> Sam Tresler > >>>> > >>>> On 02/13/2012 10:45 AM, Christian Pearce wrote: > >>>>> (Please don't turn this thread into garbage. Which tends to > >> happen > >>>> from time to time.) > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Amy, I don't want this to necessarily be about you or turn > you > >>>> off from our list. So please accept my advanced apologizes if > it > >>>> does. > >>>>> > >>>>> I wanted to get people's thoughts on upgrade versus rebuild > from > >> a > >>>> cost perspective. Seems to me going from 5 -> 7 would > require > >> going > >>>> to 6 first. Upgrades are never smooth. Having to go from 5 -> > 6 > >> and > >>>> the 6 -> 7 would be effectively paying for 2 upgrades. > >>>>> > >>>>> What are the pro's of upgrading? > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. Site content comes along for the ride. > >>>>> > >>>>> What are the con's? > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. More expensive then a rebuild > >>>>> 2. Might be forced to redo functionality > >>>>> > >>>>> Seems to me in either case you need to upgrade the theme to > work > >> in > >>>> 7. And you are more then likely finding replacement modules for > >>>> existing functionality. So if you are already forced to redo > >>>> functionality, might as well put the money towards a refresh. > >> Further > >>>> I would venture to say on small sites it would be more worth > while > >> to > >>>> redo functionality and redo the content by hand. > >>>>> > >>>>> Please lets have a healthy, no flame, honest and open opinions > >>>> discussion. Also please don't talk ill of Amy's request. I am > >> sure > >>>> several non-profits are in her shoes. And I would suspect budget > >> is > >>>> limited. Hence my reason for bringing it up. What is going to > be > >> the > >>>> most cost effect. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> From: "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> > >>>>>> To: consulting@... > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:46:58 AM GMT -05:00 > US/Canada > >>>> Eastern > >>>>>> Subject: [consulting] Please post this job listing on the > >> mailing > >>>> list... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Freelance job opportunity with small non-profit (501c3) > >>>> organization > >>>>>> dedicated to funding children's brain tumor research. > >> Experience > >>>>>> required includes Drupal 5, 6 and 7. HTML, SQL, PHP. > Position > >> is > >>>>>> part time and would require upgrade of existing website from > >> Drupal > >>>> 5 > >>>>>> to Drupal 7. Also, transfer of site from existing host to > >> Drupal > >>>>>> Gardens. After upgrade is complete, ongoing maintenance (10 > >>>>>> hours/week) would be welcomed. Please respond ASAP to > >>>>>> amy@... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> consulting mailing list > >>>>>> consulting@... > >>>>>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting > >>>>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> consulting mailing list > >> consulting@... > >> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting > > > _______________________________________________ > consulting mailing list > consulting@... > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting -- xforty technologies Christian Pearce 888-231-9331 x1119 http://xforty.com _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by Andrew R. Kelly
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Amy, it appears you still have confusion over what Drupal Gardens is. It is
a Drupal development platform with pre-defined modules which run on a D7 core, essentially Drupal-in-a-box for non-Drupal people to build Drupal websites. They also hosts the end result, which is why you probably are viewing it as a hosting provider. Before you decide on that hosting solution you should decide whether or not their canned set of modules and theme capabilities can support your existing site, and that they have the ability to allow you to actually use that 10 hrs/week for your developer to customize the way you want (I doubt it). If it were my dollars I'd contract with a freelancer here that is familiar with Drupal Gardens to do a quick feasibility study (1-2 day effort). I'd include in that study a request for hosting options if Drupal Gardens turns out to NOT be the best route. Your biggest challenge will be finding someone with DG experience since its designed to NOT need bright folks like this list has ;). Hope this helps, just trying to help you get the most from your non-profit dollars. Andrew -----Original Message----- From: consulting-bounces@... [mailto:consulting-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Weinstein Amy Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 1:08 PM To: A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers Subject: Re: [consulting] Feasibility Thank you so much for your thoughtful comments and ideas. It is true that the writer of the job description (me) is NOT a techie and so does NOT necessarily know the most accurate way to phrase the request. So, this is where my new consultant comes to my rescue! I do not have a definitive way I want to do this project (sorry if it sounded like I did in my original post). I just know one thing.I am currently using Drupal 5 and I need to be using Drupal 7. Also, I am using GoDaddy as a host, but I want to be using Drupal Gardens. Someone mentioned the 'discovery' stage.and yes, it is true that I do not have a large budget and so I was hoping to minimize this stage given the information above. But of course, I would respect the decision of the consultant in terms of how to proceed and recognize that some discovery would be necessary to assess the most cost and time efficient way to manage this process. Again, thanks so much for your perspective.I'm learning a lot and I know that the outcome will be worth the effort to find the right solution. Now if I could just find someone who wants to do the work...... Amy J. Weinstein 98 Random Farms Drive, Chappaqua, NY 10514 Phone/Fax: 914-762-3494 -----www.fightplga.org amy@... "PLGA Children should fight for their dreams, not for their lives." On Feb 13, 2012, at 12:10 PM, Vivek Khurana wrote: > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Ms. Nancy Wichmann > <nan_wich@...> wrote: >> I have done the upgrades both ways (5->6 + 6->7 as well as rebuilds). >> For me, it's largely a toss up, but I am finding more and more that >> sites still on 5 are there because it was difficult to go to 6, >> therefore will be difficult to get to 7. So, I am now approaching all >> D5 sites as though they are most likely going to need rebuilding. I >> have one major D5 site left currently, and I know it is going to be a >> rebuild of epic proportions (other bids have run in excess of $100K). >> But while we're at it, the site also needs a significant redesign, so >> we might as well bite the bullet and do it all together. > > I recently did a D5 to D7 migration for a fairly large news site and > it wasnt difficult, took us about 2 weeks to migrate all content > types. > > regards > Vivek > > -- > The hidden harmony is better than the obvious!! > _______________________________________________ > consulting mailing list > consulting@... > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Feasibility
by samtresler
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Honestly, this is becoming one of my sole biggest issues with Drupal. We
can talk about the learning curve being steep, and rewards being plentiful all we want. However, when the automatic assumption is that the site was built wrong in the first place, and (I would hazard the guess) the majority of sites being built un-upgradable, then I have a very difficult time recommending it as a good platform to build upon. Sure, you can build amazing things on Drupal. But if only a marginally slim category of rock star developers is doing it in a sustainable fashion, then what is the point? More and more when I find myself in a situation where upgrade is impossible due poor original build, I step back and re-assess the client's needs out of a CMS and see if the complexity of Drupal is something that will ever be in their wheelhouse. I'm aware that sounds incredibly negative, but there are only so many "Drupal Disasters" that I can see without getting some negative attitude. Although, I do maintain Drupal has an easy upgrade path when executed properly. Regards, Sam Tresler On 02/14/2012 07:59 AM, Christian Pearce wrote: > > ----- "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> wrote: > >> From: "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> >> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting providers"<consulting@...> >> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 3:52:53 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >> Subject: Re: [consulting] Feasibility >> >> I have found myself in a the middle of an upgrade where I thought it >> might be easier to rebuild, but only when it was built incorrectly in >> > > That is an excellent point. We rarely have people come to us with an upgrade were the site is very well built. (I am going to generalize). Typically people come to us unsatisfied with the past performance of their existing developer. When we look under the hood we see why. I guess I just assume it isn't going to be well built. > >> >> >> >>>> From: "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> >>>> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting >> providers"<consulting@...> >>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:26:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >> Eastern >>>> Subject: Re: [consulting] Feasibility >>>> >>>> " Part of providing value as a consultant is knowing when we >> should >>>> and >>>> when we shouldn't do something for a customer unless they say we >> don't >>>> >>>> care do it our way." >>>> >>>> Right. And as a consultant we probably shouldn't be making blanket >>>> recommendations without assessing the actual situation first. >>>> >>> >>> Right that is why I said "points well taken." I was simply offering >> my opinion and thoughts to see what others were. >>> >>>> In my experience it is a rare site that actually needs a rebuild. >> Why >>>> >>>> would we bother with an upgrade path at all if that weren't the >> case? >>>> >>> >>> I am speaking specifically to third party modules that don't upgrade >> well. >>> >>>> These instances stand out in our mind because that's A) usually >> when >>>> they call the consultants in, and B) They're a giant PITA. But as >> far >>>> as >>>> 'always being more cost effective to rebuild' I think that is very >> far >>>> >>> >>> You are paraphrasing me. I didn't say always. >>> >>>> off the mark. And not a good or true impression to leave a client >>>> with. >>>> >>> >>> So have you ever found yourself in the middle of a complicated >> upgrade were you thought, huh, might have been better to just start >> from scratch? >>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Sam Tresler >>>> >>>> On 02/13/2012 11:21 AM, Christian Pearce wrote: >>>>> Points well taken. What ruler do we use to decide quickly if it >> is >>>> a simple site that is could be upgraded easily? Sort of doing the >>>> upgrade to see if it works. For example are you using CCK and >> views? >>>> If so then no it isn't worth it? Or how much content do you have? >>>> Part of providing value as a consultant is knowing when we should >> and >>>> when we shouldn't do something for a customer unless they say we >> don't >>>> care do it our way. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From: "Sam Tresler"<sam@...> >>>>>> To: "A list for Drupal consultants and Drupal service/hosting >>>> providers"<consulting@...> >>>>>> Cc: "Christian Pearce"<pearcec@...> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:08:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada >>>> Eastern >>>>>> Subject: Re: [consulting] Feasibility >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure I agree with this. It depends on what/how the site >>>> was >>>>>> built originally. I've upgraded simple sites along that path (5 >> to >>>> 6, >>>>>> >>>>>> then 6 to 7) in less than a day. More complex sites or sites >> that >>>>>> weren't built properly in the first place, the assertion that >>>> rebuilt >>>>>> is >>>>>> cheaper may be true. I don't think this is a blanket statement >>>> that >>>>>> you >>>>>> can say until we know more details about the site. >>>>>> >>>>>> Upgrading themes is fairly simple if you follow the well >> published >>>>>> step >>>>>> by step guides. >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess my main point is "Upgrades are never smooth" is not the >>>> case. >>>>>> >>>>>> Frequently they are, and when they aren't it's generally due to >>>>>> problems >>>>>> that need to be fixed regardless of the upgrade. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Sam Tresler >>>>>> >>>>>> On 02/13/2012 10:45 AM, Christian Pearce wrote: >>>>>>> (Please don't turn this thread into garbage. Which tends to >>>> happen >>>>>> from time to time.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Amy, I don't want this to necessarily be about you or turn >> you >>>>>> off from our list. So please accept my advanced apologizes if >> it >>>>>> does. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wanted to get people's thoughts on upgrade versus rebuild >> from >>>> a >>>>>> cost perspective. Seems to me going from 5 -> 7 would >> require >>>> going >>>>>> to 6 first. Upgrades are never smooth. Having to go from 5 -> >> 6 >>>> and >>>>>> the 6 -> 7 would be effectively paying for 2 upgrades. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What are the pro's of upgrading? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. Site content comes along for the ride. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What are the con's? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. More expensive then a rebuild >>>>>>> 2. Might be forced to redo functionality >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seems to me in either case you need to upgrade the theme to >> work >>>> in >>>>>> 7. And you are more then likely finding replacement modules for >>>>>> existing functionality. So if you are already forced to redo >>>>>> functionality, might as well put the money towards a refresh. >>>> Further >>>>>> I would venture to say on small sites it would be more worth >> while >>>> to >>>>>> redo functionality and redo the content by hand. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please lets have a healthy, no flame, honest and open opinions >>>>>> discussion. Also please don't talk ill of Amy's request. I am >>>> sure >>>>>> several non-profits are in her shoes. And I would suspect budget >>>> is >>>>>> limited. Hence my reason for bringing it up. What is going to >> be >>>> the >>>>>> most cost effect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: "Weinstein Amy"<amy@...> >>>>>>>> To: consulting@... >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:46:58 AM GMT -05:00 >> US/Canada >>>>>> Eastern >>>>>>>> Subject: [consulting] Please post this job listing on the >>>> mailing >>>>>> list... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Freelance job opportunity with small non-profit (501c3) >>>>>> organization >>>>>>>> dedicated to funding children's brain tumor research. >>>> Experience >>>>>>>> required includes Drupal 5, 6 and 7. HTML, SQL, PHP. >> Position >>>> is >>>>>>>> part time and would require upgrade of existing website from >>>> Drupal >>>>>> 5 >>>>>>>> to Drupal 7. Also, transfer of site from existing host to >>>> Drupal >>>>>>>> Gardens. After upgrade is complete, ongoing maintenance (10 >>>>>>>> hours/week) would be welcomed. Please respond ASAP to >>>>>>>> amy@... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> consulting mailing list >>>>>>>> consulting@... >>>>>>>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> consulting mailing list >>>> consulting@... >>>> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> consulting mailing list >> consulting@... >> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting > consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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