Poll results for rti_india

[RTI India mailing list]

The following rti_india poll is now closed.  Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.

The principle reads as follows:

"vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
allowing access to "file notings"."

VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- NO, 26 votes, 72.22%  
- UNDECIDED, 1 votes, 2.78%  
- YES, 9 votes, 25.00%  



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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rti_india 

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[sarbajitr]

Dear Group

I am glad to know that we have so many patriotic, ethical and responsible members in our midst.

In short, and by extrapolation, this group (by a 3:1 ratio) continues to oppose irresponsible RTIers who access "file notings" using RTI process.

Sarbajit

--- In rti_india@..., rti_india@... wrote:

>
>
> The following rti_india poll is now closed.  Here are the
> final results:
>
>
> POLL QUESTION: I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
>
> The principle reads as follows:
>
> "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> allowing access to "file notings"."
>
> VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
>
> CHOICES AND RESULTS
> - NO, 26 votes, 72.22%  
> - UNDECIDED, 1 votes, 2.78%  
> - YES, 9 votes, 25.00%  
>
>

[Sanil Narayanan Nampoothiry]

Dear Mr. Roy,
 Please don't stamp us as non patriotic, un ethical and irresponsible citizens. We cannot find anything wrong with access to file notings using RTI. You are free to differ. BUT WE ARE PATRIOTIC AND RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS.
 
Regards
 
---Sanil

--- On Tue, 3/11/09, sroy1947 <sroy1947@...> wrote:


From: sroy1947 <sroy1947@...>
Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
To: rti_india@...
Date: Tuesday, 3 November, 2009, 10:24 AM


 



Dear Group

I am glad to know that we have so many patriotic, ethical and responsible members in our midst.

In short, and by extrapolation, this group (by a 3:1 ratio) continues to oppose irresponsible RTIers who access "file notings" using RTI process.

Sarbajit

--- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com wrote:

>
>
> The following rti_india poll is now closed. Here are the
> final results:
>
>
> POLL QUESTION: I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
>
> The principle reads as follows:
>
> "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> allowing access to "file notings"."
>
> VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
>
> CHOICES AND RESULTS
> - NO, 26 votes, 72.22%
> - UNDECIDED, 1 votes, 2.78%
> - YES, 9 votes, 25.00%
>
>

      From cricket scores to your friends. Try the Yahoo! India Homepage! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew

[Satish Kumar Kapoor]

Dear Mr Roy

I agree with Mr Sanil, I do not find any reason for terming people favouring disclosure of file notings as un-patriotic rather people who say that file notings should not be disclosed,  are killing RTI.

Satish




________________________________
From: Sanil Narayanan Nampoothiry <nnsanu@...>
To: rti_india@...
Sent: Tue, November 3, 2009 7:24:55 AM
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 
Dear Mr. Roy,
 Please don't stamp us as non patriotic, un ethical and irresponsible citizens. We cannot find anything wrong with access to file notings using RTI. You are free to differ. BUT WE ARE PATRIOTIC AND RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS.
 
Regards
 
---Sanil

--- On Tue, 3/11/09, sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com> wrote:

>From: sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com>
>Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
>To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
>Date: Tuesday, 3 November, 2009, 10:24 AM
>
>
>  
>Dear Group
>
>I am glad to know that we have so many patriotic, ethical and responsible members in our midst.
>
>In short, and by extrapolation, this group (by a 3:1 ratio) continues to oppose irresponsible RTIers who access "file notings" using RTI process.
>
>Sarbajit
>
>--- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> The following rti_india poll is now closed. Here are the
>> final results:
>>
>>
>> POLL QUESTION: I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
>>
>> The principle reads as follows:
>>
>>
> "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
>> by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
>> Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
>> allowing access to "file notings"."
>>
>> VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
>>
>> CHOICES AND RESULTS
>> - NO, 26 votes, 72.22%
>> - UNDECIDED, 1 votes, 2.78%
>> - YES, 9 votes, 25.00%
>>
>>
>
>

________________________________
 From cricket scores to your friends. Try the Yahoo! India Homepage!
   


     

[ysingh rajput]

Deal All

I fully agree with Mr. SK  Kapoor. Regarding file notings  generally it is initiated by a lower rung official mostly on behest of the higher authority with vested interest/corruption.  By disclosure of file-noting the real culprit could be pinpointed. Not asking for file-noting through RTI route is curtailment of right of a citizen the flow of unbarred free information.

Y Singh Rajput
Vadodara
4/11/09

 




________________________________
From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...>
To: rti_india@...
Sent: Tue, 3 November, 2009 8:40:31 PM
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 
Dear Mr Roy

I agree with Mr Sanil, I do not find any reason for terming people favouring disclosure of file notings as un-patriotic rather people who say that file notings should not be disclosed,  are killing RTI.

Satish




________________________________
From: Sanil Narayanan Nampoothiry <nnsanu@yahoo. com>
To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tue, November 3, 2009 7:24:55 AM
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 
Dear Mr. Roy,
 Please don't stamp us as non patriotic, un ethical and irresponsible citizens. We cannot find anything wrong with access to file notings using RTI. You are free to differ. BUT WE ARE PATRIOTIC AND RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS.
 
Regards
 
---Sanil

--- On Tue, 3/11/09, sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com> wrote:

>From: sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com>
>Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
>To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
>Date: Tuesday, 3 November, 2009, 10:24 AM
>
>
>  
>Dear Group
>
>I am glad to know that we have so many patriotic, ethical and responsible members in our midst.
>
>In short, and by extrapolation, this group (by a 3:1 ratio) continues to oppose irresponsible RTIers who access "file notings" using RTI process.
>
>Sarbajit
>
>--- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> The following rti_india poll is now closed. Here are the
>> final results:
>>
>>
>> POLL QUESTION: I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
>>
>> The principle reads as follows:
>>
>>
> "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
>> by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
>> Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
>> allowing access to "file notings"."
>>
>> VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
>>
>> CHOICES AND RESULTS
>> - NO, 26 votes, 72.22%
>> - UNDECIDED, 1 votes, 2.78%
>> - YES, 9 votes, 25.00%
>>
>>
>
>

________________________________
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[M K Singhal]

Dear All,
I think that denying file notings will take the teeth out of RTI. One can understand a matter only after going through the file notings. I think those who are opposing giving of file notings under RTI are really trying to kill it. Best wishes,
mksinghal




________________________________
From: ysingh rajput <ysingh_rajput@...>
To: rti_india@...
Sent: Wed, 4 November, 2009 9:32:57 AM
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 
Deal All

I fully agree with Mr. SK  Kapoor. Regarding file notings  generally it is initiated by a lower rung official mostly on behest of the higher authority with vested interest/corruption . By disclosure of file-noting the real culprit could be pinpointed. Not asking for file-noting through RTI route is curtailment of right of a citizen the flow of unbarred free information.

Y Singh Rajput
Vadodara
4/11/09

 




________________________________
From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@ yahoo.com>
To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tue, 3 November, 2009 8:40:31 PM
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 
Dear Mr Roy

I agree with Mr Sanil, I do not find any reason for terming people favouring disclosure of file notings as un-patriotic rather people who say that file notings should not be disclosed,  are killing RTI.

Satish




________________________________
From: Sanil Narayanan Nampoothiry <nnsanu@yahoo. com>
To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tue, November 3, 2009 7:24:55 AM
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 
Dear Mr. Roy,
 Please don't stamp us as non patriotic, un ethical and irresponsible citizens. We cannot find anything wrong with access to file notings using RTI. You are free to differ. BUT WE ARE PATRIOTIC AND RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS.

Regards

---Sanil

--- On Tue, 3/11/09, sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com> wrote:

>From: sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com>
>Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
>To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
>Date: Tuesday, 3 November, 2009, 10:24 AM
>
>
> 
>Dear Group
>
>I am glad to know that we have so many patriotic, ethical and responsible members in our midst.
>
>In short, and by extrapolation, this group (by a 3:1 ratio) continues to oppose irresponsible RTIers who access "file notings" using RTI process.
>
>Sarbajit
>
>--- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> The following rti_india poll is now closed. Here are the
>> final results:
>>
>>
>> POLL QUESTION: I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
>>
>> The principle reads as follows:
>>
>> "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
>> by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
>> Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
>> allowing access to "file notings"."
>>
>> VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
>>
>> CHOICES AND RESULTS
>> - NO, 26 votes, 72.22%
>> - UNDECIDED, 1 votes, 2.78%
>> - YES, 9 votes, 25.00%
>>
>>
>
>

________________________________
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[Sidharth-4]

Respected group members,

Since this is such a lively discussion on File Notings, on the
sidelines I would like to mention Hon. Supreme Court's take on File
Notings.  May be this has something to do with GoI's furtive attempts
on file notings.


"It is trite to state that notings in a departmental file do not have
the sanction of law to be an effective order.

A noting by an officer is an expression of his viewpoint on the
subject. It is no more than an opinion by an officer for internal use
and consideration of the other officials of the department and for the
benefit of the final decision-making authority.

'Needless to add that internal notings are not meant for outside exposure.'

Notings in the file culminate into an executable order, affecting the
rights of the parties, only when it reaches the final decision-making
authority in the department; gets his approval and the final order is
communicated to the person concerned. "
--------------
CIVIL APPEAL NO. 6143 OF 2008, SETHI AUTO SERVICE STATION vs.
DELHI DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY
--------------

Rgds,

Sidharth Misra

[sarbajitr]

Dear Satishji, Mr Rajput, Mr Singhal etc.

The issue of disclosure of "file notings" via RTI is extremely complex. It is so complex that even ICs like Mr ANT and Mr SM have taken contradictory positions in and out of DoPT and CIC respectively.

I would just like to bullet a few points for further discussion:-

1) At this group we do not moderate or prevent any member from posting freely  or casting their votes freely. I would really like to know if even a single member (having Yahoo ID) amongst us was prevented from voting on this issue OR having voted found that his vote was not correctly registered (it is for precisely this reason that votes are disclosed immediately after a member has voted).

2) Simply stated the 6th Principle for the "ethical" members of this group means:-

a) Patriotic citizens ought not to use RTI to frustrate the working of our Government, AND

b) Disclosure of file notings via RTI will hinder working of Government by engendering victimisation and harassment of honest and efficient officers.

3) The results are before us, every effort was made to ensure that as many people voted and that a good discussion took place before and also *during* the voting. The democratic collective wishes of the membership should be respected gracefully.

Sarbajit

--- In rti_india@..., Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...> wrote:

>
> Dear Mr Roy
>
> I agree with Mr Sanil, I do not find any reason for terming people favouring disclosure of file notings as un-patriotic rather people who say that file notings should not be disclosed,  are killing RTI.
>
> Satish
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Sanil Narayanan Nampoothiry <nnsanu@...>
> To: rti_india@...
> Sent: Tue, November 3, 2009 7:24:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
>
>  
> Dear Mr. Roy,
>  Please don't stamp us as non patriotic, un ethical and irresponsible citizens. We cannot find anything wrong with access to file notings using RTI. You are free to differ. BUT WE ARE PATRIOTIC AND RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS.
>  
> Regards
>  
> ---Sanil
>
> --- On Tue, 3/11/09, sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
> >From: sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com>
> >Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
> >To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> >Date: Tuesday, 3 November, 2009, 10:24 AM
> >
> >
> >  
> >Dear Group
> >
> >I am glad to know that we have so many patriotic, ethical and responsible members in our midst.
> >
> >In short, and by extrapolation, this group (by a 3:1 ratio) continues to oppose irresponsible RTIers who access "file notings" using RTI process.
> >
> >Sarbajit
> >
> >--- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> The following rti_india poll is now closed. Here are the
> >> final results:
> >>
> >>
> >> POLL QUESTION: I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
> >>
> >> The principle reads as follows:
> >>
> >>
> > "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> >> by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> >> Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> >> allowing access to "file notings"."
> >>
> >> VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
> >>
> >> CHOICES AND RESULTS
> >> - NO, 26 votes, 72.22%
> >> - UNDECIDED, 1 votes, 2.78%
> >> - YES, 9 votes, 25.00%
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________
>  From cricket scores to your friends. Try the Yahoo! India Homepage!
>

[sarbajitr]

Disclosure is also in violation of CCS Rules
http://www.persmin.nic.in/EmployeesCorner/Acts_Rules/CCSRules_1964/ccs_conduct_rules_1964_details.htm

"3.1 Rule 11 ibid provides that no Government servant shall, without prior permission, communicate directly or indirectly any information to any other Government servant or any other person to whom he is not authorized to communicate such information.
:
:
3.3 The Explanation below rule 11 of the Central Civil Services (Conduct) Rules, 1964, provides that quotation by a Government servant in his representation of or from any letter, circular or memorandum or from the notes from any file to which he is not authorized to have access or he is not authorized to keep in his personal custody or for personal purpose shall amount to unauthorized communication of information."

--- In rti_india@..., Sidharth <sidharthbbsr@...> wrote:

>
> Respected group members,
>
> Since this is such a lively discussion on File Notings, on the
> sidelines I would like to mention Hon. Supreme Court's take on File
> Notings.  May be this has something to do with GoI's furtive attempts
> on file notings.
>
>
> "It is trite to state that notings in a departmental file do not have
> the sanction of law to be an effective order.
>
> A noting by an officer is an expression of his viewpoint on the
> subject. It is no more than an opinion by an officer for internal use
> and consideration of the other officials of the department and for the
> benefit of the final decision-making authority.
>
> 'Needless to add that internal notings are not meant for outside exposure.'
>
> Notings in the file culminate into an executable order, affecting the
> rights of the parties, only when it reaches the final decision-making
> authority in the department; gets his approval and the final order is
> communicated to the person concerned. "
> --------------
> CIVIL APPEAL NO. 6143 OF 2008, SETHI AUTO SERVICE STATION vs.
> DELHI DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY
> --------------
>
> Rgds,
>
> Sidharth Misra
>

[Satish Kumar Kapoor]

Dear Sarbajit ji

I do not think any body has disputed poll results. Yes file notings is very complex issue, but the people like you who have been Govt also know, how important this is in arriving decision, as regards to fear of this group that it may victimise honest officers, atleast I am not able to understand, you may give some examples so that members understand the issue.

Satish




________________________________
From: sroy1947 <sroy1947@...>
To: rti_india@...
Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 12:31:27 AM
Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 
Dear Satishji, Mr Rajput, Mr Singhal etc.

The issue of disclosure of "file notings" via RTI is extremely complex. It is so complex that even ICs like Mr ANT and Mr SM have taken contradictory positions in and out of DoPT and CIC respectively.

I would just like to bullet a few points for further discussion:-

1) At this group we do not moderate or prevent any member from posting freely  or casting their votes freely. I would really like to know if even a single member (having Yahoo ID) amongst us was prevented from voting on this issue OR having voted found that his vote was not correctly registered (it is for precisely this reason that votes are disclosed immediately after a member has voted).

2) Simply stated the 6th Principle for the "ethical" members of this group means:-

a) Patriotic citizens ought not to use RTI to frustrate the working of our Government, AND

b) Disclosure of file notings via RTI will hinder working of Government by engendering victimisation and harassment of honest and efficient officers.

3) The results are before us, every effort was made to ensure that as many people voted and that a good discussion took place before and also *during* the voting. The democratic collective wishes of the membership should be respected gracefully.

Sarbajit

--- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@ ...> wrote:

>
> Dear Mr Roy
>
> I agree with Mr Sanil, I do not find any reason for terming people favouring disclosure of file notings as un-patriotic rather people who say that file notings should not be disclosed,  are killing RTI.
>
> Satish
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Sanil Narayanan Nampoothiry <nnsanu@...>
> To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Tue, November 3, 2009 7:24:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
>
>
> Dear Mr. Roy,
>  Please don't stamp us as non patriotic, un ethical and irresponsible citizens. We cannot find anything wrong with access to file notings using RTI. You are free to differ. BUT WE ARE PATRIOTIC AND RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS.
>
> Regards
>
> ---Sanil
>
> --- On Tue, 3/11/09, sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
> >From: sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com>
> >Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
> >To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> >Date: Tuesday, 3 November, 2009, 10:24 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >Dear Group
> >
> >I am glad to know that we have so many patriotic, ethical and responsible members in our midst.
> >
> >In short, and by extrapolation, this group (by a 3:1 ratio) continues to oppose irresponsible RTIers who access "file notings" using RTI process.
> >
> >Sarbajit
> >
> >--- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> The following rti_india poll is now closed. Here are the
> >> final results:
> >>
> >>
> >> POLL QUESTION: I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
> >>
> >> The principle reads as follows:
> >>
> >>
> > "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> >> by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> >> Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> >> allowing access to "file notings"."
> >>
> >> VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
> >>
> >> CHOICES AND RESULTS
> >> - NO, 26 votes, 72.22%
> >> - UNDECIDED, 1 votes, 2.78%
> >> - YES, 9 votes, 25.00%
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
>  From cricket scores to your friends. Try the Yahoo! India Homepage!
>

   


     

[Satish Kumar Kapoor]

Dear Shri Sidarth ji

These internal notings manipulate decisions in vested interests, all govt officers know this.  Although noting in department files do not have sanction of law, but it is also true that final decisions depends upon these file notings.

Satish




________________________________
From: Sidharth <sidharthbbsr@...>
To: rti_india@...
Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 12:25:57 AM
Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 
Respected group members,

Since this is such a lively discussion on File Notings, on the
sidelines I would like to mention Hon. Supreme Court's take on File
Notings.  May be this has something to do with GoI's furtive attempts
on file notings.

"It is trite to state that notings in a departmental file do not have
the sanction of law to be an effective order.

A noting by an officer is an expression of his viewpoint on the
subject. It is no more than an opinion by an officer for internal use
and consideration of the other officials of the department and for the
benefit of the final decision-making authority.

'Needless to add that internal notings are not meant for outside exposure.'

Notings in the file culminate into an executable order, affecting the
rights of the parties, only when it reaches the final decision-making
authority in the department; gets his approval and the final order is
communicated to the person concerned. "
------------ --
CIVIL APPEAL NO. 6143 OF 2008, SETHI AUTO SERVICE STATION vs.
DELHI DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY
------------ --

Rgds,

Sidharth Misra

   


     

[kamramk8]

Dear list,
 
There is very useful book on correct method of marking on neetsheets with proper reasoning written by highly experienced retired official of DoPT.Notesheet is not meant for giving judgement irrespective of factual position.So only notesheet can break the honeymoon of bureaucrats and parties with vested interest getting undue favour/concessions from govt IN THE GARB OF SECRECY.
 
Thus notehsheet has to be filled in a certain manner incorporating actual facts rather than simply "may be allowed" on fictitous grounds and it is LIFE OF RTI.
 
With regards
Manoj K.Kamra

--- On Wed, 11/4/09, Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...> wrote:


From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...>
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
To: rti_india@...
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 8:32 PM


 





Dear Shri Sidarth ji

These internal notings manipulate decisions in vested interests, all govt officers know this.  Although noting in department files do not have sanction of law, but it is also true that final decisions depends upon these file notings.

Satish





From: Sidharth <sidharthbbsr@ gmail.com>
To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 12:25:57 AM
Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 

Respected group members,

Since this is such a lively discussion on File Notings, on the
sidelines I would like to mention Hon. Supreme Court's take on File
Notings. May be this has something to do with GoI's furtive attempts
on file notings.

"It is trite to state that notings in a departmental file do not have
the sanction of law to be an effective order.

A noting by an officer is an expression of his viewpoint on the
subject. It is no more than an opinion by an officer for internal use
and consideration of the other officials of the department and for the
benefit of the final decision-making authority.

'Needless to add that internal notings are not meant for outside exposure.'

Notings in the file culminate into an executable order, affecting the
rights of the parties, only when it reaches the final decision-making
authority in the department; gets his approval and the final order is
communicated to the person concerned. "
------------ --
CIVIL APPEAL NO. 6143 OF 2008, SETHI AUTO SERVICE STATION vs.
DELHI DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY
------------ --

Rgds,

Sidharth Misra

















     

[ysingh rajput]

Dear All


An honest officer is very remotely can get victimised in transparent environment. A person standing erect should not bother if his shadow is crooked.  I am having file noting initiated with blatant false "facts" and proposal got approved. I myself spent fourteen years as a public servant. I posted earlier that the file-noting help in pin-pointing distorted decision making process for extraneous considerations.
High Court is correct where it says that file noting is a process and not an end. An honest officer would get victimised through the process of file noting. If he feels aggreived he could get remedy through excess to file noting. I do feel the poll result are more indicative of 'patriotic' content and misses the vital ingredients of the issues envolved.

Y Singh Rajput
Vadodara
5/11/09


________________________________
From: SatishKumarKapoor <kapoorsatish@...>
To: rti_india@...
Sent: Wed, 4 November, 2009 6:18:25 PM
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 
Dear Sarbajitji

I do not think any body has disputed poll results. Yes file notings is very complex issue, but the people like you who have been Govt also know, how important this is in arriving decision, as regards to fear of this group that it may victimise honest officers, atleast I am not able to understand, you may give some examples so that members understand the issue.

Satish




________________________________
From: sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com>
To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 12:31:27 AM
Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 
Dear Satishji, Mr Rajput, Mr Singhal etc.

The issue of disclosure of "file notings" via RTI is extremely complex. It is so complex that even ICs like Mr ANT and Mr SM have taken contradictory positions in and out of DoPT and CIC respectively.

I would just like to bullet a few points for further discussion:-

1) At this group we do not moderate or prevent any member from posting freely  or casting their votes freely. I would really like to know if even a single member (having Yahoo ID) amongst us was prevented from voting on this issue OR having voted found that his vote was not correctly registered (it is for precisely this reason that votes are disclosed immediately after a member has voted).

2) Simply stated the 6th Principle for the "ethical" members of this group means:-

a) Patriotic citizens ought not to use RTI to frustrate the working of our Government, AND

b) Disclosure of file notings via RTI will hinder working of Government by engendering victimisation and harassment of honest and efficient officers.

3) The results are before us, every effort was made to ensure that as many people voted and that a good discussion took place before and also *during* the voting. The democratic collective wishes of the membership should be respected gracefully.

Sarbajit

--- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, SatishKumarKapoor <kapoorsatish@ ...> wrote:

>
> Dear Mr Roy
>
> I agree with Mr Sanil, I do not find any reason for terming people favouring disclosure of file notings as un-patriotic rather people who say that file notings should not be disclosed,  are killing RTI.
>
> Satish
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: SanilNarayananNampoothiry <nnsanu@...>
> To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Tue, November 3, 2009 7:24:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
>
>
> Dear Mr. Roy,
>  Please don't stamp us as non patriotic, un ethical and irresponsible citizens. We cannot find anything wrong with access to file notings using RTI. You are free to differ. BUT WE ARE PATRIOTIC AND RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS.
>
> Regards
>
> ---Sanil
>
> --- On Tue, 3/11/09, sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
> >From: sroy1947 <sroy1947@yahoo. com>
> >Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
> >To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> >Date: Tuesday, 3 November, 2009, 10:24 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >Dear Group
> >
> >I am glad to know that we have so many patriotic, ethical and responsible members in our midst.
> >
> >In short, and by extrapolation, this group (by a 3:1 ratio) continues to oppose irresponsible RTIers who access "file notings" using RTI process.
> >
> >Sarbajit
> >
> >--- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> The following rti_india poll is now closed. Here are the
> >> final results:
> >>
> >>
> >> POLL QUESTION: I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
> >>
> >> The principle reads as follows:
> >>
> >>
> > "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> >> by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> >> Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> >> allowing access to "file notings"."
> >>
> >> VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
> >>
> >> CHOICES AND RESULTS
> >> - NO, 26 votes, 72.22%
> >> - UNDECIDED, 1 votes, 2.78%
> >> - YES, 9 votes, 25.00%
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
>  From cricket scores to your friends. Try the Yahoo! India Homepage!
>

   


      The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/

[sroy1947]

Dear All,

Actually there is no real disagreement between us. Yes, if there was
an ideal transparent environment in place then honest officers would
not be victimised. But when all of us concede that the present
environment is not open, honest or transparent then the honest
officers can be (and are) targeted and victimised. File notings is the
only avenue open to honest officers to record his dissent (subtly or
not), convey the factual and legal position and OBSTRUCT dishonest
proposals. He also uses this process to "cover his ass" and invariably
keeps his own private xerox copies of controversial decisions. As per
my experience The people who are asking for file notings to be
disclosed in RTI are usually the same people who have interests in
getting dishonest proposals passed.

I request you to make a conscious effort to try to avoid asking for
file notings in your RTIs. This approach will discipline you to draft
better RTIs. Just like I advise people from using
Who/What/where/how/Why etc in their RTIs I am also advising against
asking for file notings. We must also consider how many applicants got
their *entire* RTIs denied just because they had asked for a file
noting or 2. Ultimately its just not worth giving the PIOs any pretext
of an excuse to deny your request.

For Mr Satish Kapoor:- Sir, I was never in Govt.

Sarbajit





On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:49 PM, ysingh rajput <ysingh_rajput@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Dear All
>
> An honest officer is very remotely can get victimised in transparent environment. A person standing erect should not bother if his shadow is crooked.  I am having file noting initiated with blatant false "facts" and proposal got approved. I myself spent fourteen years as a public servant. I posted earlier that the file-noting help in pin-pointing distorted decision making process for extraneous considerations.
> High Court is correct where it says that file noting is a process and not an end. An honest officer would get victimised through the process of file noting. If he feels aggreived he could get remedy through excess to file noting. I do feel the poll result are more indicative of 'patriotic' content and misses the vital ingredients of the issues envolved.
>
> Y Singh Rajput
> Vadodara
> 5/11/09
> ________________________________
> From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...>
> To: rti_india@...
> Sent: Wed, 4 November, 2009 6:18:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
>
>
>
> Dear Sarbajit ji
>
> I do not think any body has disputed poll results. Yes file notings is very complex issue, but the people like you who have been Govt also know, how important this is in arriving decision, as regards to fear of this group that it may victimise honest officers, atleast I am not able to understand, you may give some examples so that members understand the issue.
>
> Satish
>

[Satish Kumar Kapoor]

Dear Sh  Sarbajit ji,

I am sorry, from your postings I just guessed that you might be  from Govt Department. Yes, if there is complete transparency, honest persons need not fear of being victimised, I have worked in PSU for more than 35 years and have been associated with decision making processes, I had dealing with various Govt departments, I can say with 100% confidence that IT IS NOT DISHONEST PERSONS  WHO FAVOUR OR ASK FOR FILE NOTINGS, IT IS REVERSE, ONLY HONEST PEOPLE FAVOUR THAT FILE NOTINGS SHOULD BE PROVIDED.

I am not even 1% convinced that by providing file notings a honest officer can be victimised, unless he has prepared note, which is factually incorrect. If one can prove, whatever he has written in file notings is truth and based  on facts, he can not bevictimised on basis of file notings, rather this his defence if he is victimised. You have yourself said that "  he keeps his own private xerox copies" WHAT FOR? What is harm if same is given to any information seeker ? how copy his discent openion can be used to victimise him?  

If you were not part of Govt department and decision making process of Govt  Machinery, you can not understand, how important file notings are, to know, if decision arrived was based  on facts and truth.

In democracy, every person has right to differ, nothing should be taken as personal.

Satish




________________________________
From: sarbajit roy <mail.sarbajitroy@...>
To: rti_india@...
Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 4:17:18 AM
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 
Dear All,

Actually there is no real disagreement between us. Yes, if there was
an ideal transparent environment in place then honest officers would
not be victimised. But when all of us concede that the present
environment is not open, honest or transparent then the honest
officers can be (and are) targeted and victimised. File notings is the
only avenue open to honest officers to record his dissent (subtly or
not), convey the factual and legal position and OBSTRUCT dishonest
proposals. He also uses this process to "cover his ass" and invariably
keeps his own private xerox copies of controversial decisions. As per
my experience The people who are asking for file notings to be
disclosed in RTI are usually the same people who have interests in
getting dishonest proposals passed.

I request you to make a conscious effort to try to avoid asking for
file notings in your RTIs. This approach will discipline you to draft
better RTIs. Just like I advise people from using
Who/What/where/ how/Why etc in their RTIs I am also advising against
asking for file notings. We must also consider how many applicants got
their *entire* RTIs denied just because they had asked for a file
noting or 2. Ultimately its just not worth giving the PIOs any pretext
of an excuse to deny your request.

For Mr Satish Kapoor:- Sir, I was never in Govt.

Sarbajit

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:49 PM, ysingh rajput <ysingh_rajput@ yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> Dear All
>
> An honest officer is very remotely can get victimised in transparent environment. A person standing erect should not bother if his shadow is crooked.  I am having file noting initiated with blatant false "facts" and proposal got approved. I myself spent fourteen years as a public servant. I posted earlier that the file-noting help in pin-pointing distorted decision making process for extraneous considerations.
> High Court is correct where it says that file noting is a process and not an end. An honest officer would get victimised through the process of file noting. If he feels aggreived he could get remedy through excess to file noting. I do feel the poll result are more indicative of 'patriotic' content and misses the vital ingredients of the issues envolved.
>
> Y Singh Rajput
> Vadodara
> 5/11/09
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@ yahoo.com>
> To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Wed, 4 November, 2009 6:18:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
>
>
>
> Dear Sarbajit ji
>
> I do not think any body has disputed poll results. Yes file notings is very complex issue, but the people like you who have been Govt also know, how important this is in arriving decision, as regards to fear of this group that it may victimise honest officers, atleast I am not able to understand, you may give some examples so that members understand the issue.
>
> Satish
>

 


     

[k_james_john]

Dear manoj can I get the name of the book along with its author & publishers name , regards James
Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!

-----Original Message-----
From: MANOJ KAMRA <kamramk8@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 08:56:02
To: <rti_india@...>
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

Dear list,
 
There is very useful book on correct method of marking on neetsheets with proper reasoning written by highly experienced retired official of DoPT.Notesheet is not meant for giving judgement irrespective of factual position.So only notesheet can break the honeymoon of bureaucrats and parties with vested interest getting undue favour/concessions from govt IN THE GARB OF SECRECY.
 
Thus notehsheet has to be filled in a certain manner incorporating actual facts rather than simply "may be allowed" on fictitous grounds and it is LIFE OF RTI.
 
With regards
Manoj K.Kamra

--- On Wed, 11/4/09, Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...> wrote:


From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...>
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
To: rti_india@...
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 8:32 PM


 





Dear Shri Sidarth ji

These internal notings manipulate decisions in vested interests, all govt officers know this.  Although noting in department files do not have sanction of law, but it is also true that final decisions depends upon these file notings.

Satish





From: Sidharth <sidharthbbsr@ gmail.com>
To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 12:25:57 AM
Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 

Respected group members,

Since this is such a lively discussion on File Notings, on the
sidelines I would like to mention Hon. Supreme Court's take on File
Notings. May be this has something to do with GoI's furtive attempts
on file notings.

"It is trite to state that notings in a departmental file do not have
the sanction of law to be an effective order.

A noting by an officer is an expression of his viewpoint on the
subject. It is no more than an opinion by an officer for internal use
and consideration of the other officials of the department and for the
benefit of the final decision-making authority.

'Needless to add that internal notings are not meant for outside exposure.'

Notings in the file culminate into an executable order, affecting the
rights of the parties, only when it reaches the final decision-making
authority in the department; gets his approval and the final order is
communicated to the person concerned. "
------------ --
CIVIL APPEAL NO. 6143 OF 2008, SETHI AUTO SERVICE STATION vs.
DELHI DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY
------------ --

Rgds,

Sidharth Misra

















     

[Sanil Narayanan Nampoothiry]

Thank you Kapoor ji, for that post.
I do agree with you 100%.
I do not understand why Mr.Sarbajit ji is mixing patriotism with file notings!!!!

--- Sanil

--- On Thu, 5/11/09, Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...> wrote:


From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...>
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
To: rti_india@...
Date: Thursday, 5 November, 2009, 11:13 PM


 





Dear Sh  Sarbajit ji,

I am sorry, from your postings I just guessed that you might be  from Govt Department. Yes, if there is complete transparency, honest persons need not fear of being victimised, I have worked in PSU for more than 35 years and have been associated with decision making processes, I had dealing with various Govt departments, I can say with 100% confidence that IT IS NOT DISHONEST PERSONS  WHO FAVOUR OR ASK FOR FILE NOTINGS, IT IS REVERSE, ONLY HONEST PEOPLE FAVOUR THAT FILE NOTINGS SHOULD BE PROVIDED.

I am not even 1% convinced that by providing file notings a honest officer can be victimised, unless he has prepared note, which is factually incorrect. If one can prove, whatever he has written in file notings is truth and based  on facts, he can not bevictimised on basis of file notings, rather this his defence if he is victimised. You have yourself said that "  he keeps his own private xerox copies" WHAT FOR? What is harm if same is given to any information seeker ? how copy his discent openion can be used to victimise him? 

If you were not part of Govt department and decision making process of Govt  Machinery, you can not understand, how important file notings are, to know, if decision arrived was based  on facts and truth.

In democracy, every person has right to differ, nothing should be taken as personal.

Satish





From: sarbajit roy <mail.sarbajitroy@ gmail.com>
To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 4:17:18 AM
Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india

 

Dear All,

Actually there is no real disagreement between us. Yes, if there was
an ideal transparent environment in place then honest officers would
not be victimised. But when all of us concede that the present
environment is not open, honest or transparent then the honest
officers can be (and are) targeted and victimised. File notings is the
only avenue open to honest officers to record his dissent (subtly or
not), convey the factual and legal position and OBSTRUCT dishonest
proposals. He also uses this process to "cover his ass" and invariably
keeps his own private xerox copies of controversial decisions. As per
my experience The people who are asking for file notings to be
disclosed in RTI are usually the same people who have interests in
getting dishonest proposals passed.

I request you to make a conscious effort to try to avoid asking for
file notings in your RTIs. This approach will discipline you to draft
better RTIs. Just like I advise people from using
Who/What/where/ how/Why etc in their RTIs I am also advising against
asking for file notings. We must also consider how many applicants got
their *entire* RTIs denied just because they had asked for a file
noting or 2. Ultimately its just not worth giving the PIOs any pretext
of an excuse to deny your request.

For Mr Satish Kapoor:- Sir, I was never in Govt.

Sarbajit

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:49 PM, ysingh rajput <ysingh_rajput@ yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> Dear All
>
> An honest officer is very remotely can get victimised in transparent environment. A person standing erect should not bother if his shadow is crooked. I am having file noting initiated with blatant false "facts" and proposal got approved. I myself spent fourteen years as a public servant. I posted earlier that the file-noting help in pin-pointing distorted decision making process for extraneous considerations.
> High Court is correct where it says that file noting is a process and not an end. An honest officer would get victimised through the process of file noting. If he feels aggreived he could get remedy through excess to file noting. I do feel the poll result are more indicative of 'patriotic' content and misses the vital ingredients of the issues envolved.
>
> Y Singh Rajput
> Vadodara
> 5/11/09
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@ yahoo.com>
> To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Wed, 4 November, 2009 6:18:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
>
>
>
> Dear Sarbajit ji
>
> I do not think any body has disputed poll results. Yes file notings is very complex issue, but the people like you who have been Govt also know, how important this is in arriving decision, as regards to fear of this group that it may victimise honest officers, atleast I am not able to understand, you may give some examples so that members understand the issue.
>
> Satish
>

      The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/

[kamramk8]

Dear Sh. James and all ,

url of publisher is http://pustakmahal.com/book/book/bid,,6651E/index.html
I hope you will find it very useful in getting insight of notesheet and its essential requisites.

Manoj K.Kamra

--- In rti_india@..., k_james_john@... wrote:

>
> Dear manoj can I get the name of the book along with its author & publishers name , regards James
> Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MANOJ KAMRA <kamramk8@...>
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 08:56:02
> To: <rti_india@...>
> Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
>
> Dear list,
>  
> There is very useful book on correct method of marking on neetsheets with proper reasoning written by highly experienced retired official of DoPT.Notesheet is not meant for giving judgement irrespective of factual position.So only notesheet can break the honeymoon of bureaucrats and parties with vested interest getting undue favour/concessions from govt IN THE GARB OF SECRECY.
>  
> Thus notehsheet has to be filled in a certain manner incorporating actual facts rather than simply "may be allowed" on fictitous grounds and it is LIFE OF RTI.
>  
> With regards
> Manoj K.Kamra
>
> --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...>
> Subject: Re: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
> To: rti_india@...
> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 8:32 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Shri Sidarth ji
>
> These internal notings manipulate decisions in vested interests, all govt officers know this.  Although noting in department files do not have sanction of law, but it is also true that final decisions depends upon these file notings.
>
> Satish
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Sidharth <sidharthbbsr@ gmail.com>
> To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 12:25:57 AM
> Subject: [rti_india] Re: Poll results for rti_india
>
>  
>
> Respected group members,
>
> Since this is such a lively discussion on File Notings, on the
> sidelines I would like to mention Hon. Supreme Court's take on File
> Notings. May be this has something to do with GoI's furtive attempts
> on file notings.
>
> "It is trite to state that notings in a departmental file do not have
> the sanction of law to be an effective order.
>
> A noting by an officer is an expression of his viewpoint on the
> subject. It is no more than an opinion by an officer for internal use
> and consideration of the other officials of the department and for the
> benefit of the final decision-making authority.
>
> 'Needless to add that internal notings are not meant for outside exposure.'
>
> Notings in the file culminate into an executable order, affecting the
> rights of the parties, only when it reaches the final decision-making
> authority in the department; gets his approval and the final order is
> communicated to the person concerned. "
> ------------ --
> CIVIL APPEAL NO. 6143 OF 2008, SETHI AUTO SERVICE STATION vs.
> DELHI DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY
> ------------ --
>
> Rgds,
>
> Sidharth Misra
>