PowerPC 8500??

[Frank Rubinsky]

Hi All

I have an old PowerPC 8500/132 (actually, I think it was upgraded -  
150 maybe??). I'd like to install Debian on it (my first experience  
with Linux).

The HCL at http://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/Apple doesn't list the 8500 -  
the oldest machines on it seem to be G3s.

So what's the best version of Debian to install?

Any special hints/pointers for a newbie appreciated.

Thanks for your help.

Frank


"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord,  
make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it."   -Voltaire



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[Risto Suominen]

Hi Frank,

To begin with, I must say that this is not the easiest way of getting
to know Linux. On the other hand: if you make it, you'll have much
deeper understanding of it than someone who just puts an Ubuntu CD on
a modern PC.

I'd say that Lenny should be your choice. This page gives good
instructions for getting started:

http://knol.google.com/k/stephen-allen/bootx-and-debian-ppc-on-old-world/39pxaft660cvn/6#

And don't hesitate to ask for more help. You'll have to :)

Risto


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[Rogério Brito]

Hi, Frank.

On Sep 08 2009, Frank Rubinsky wrote:
> I have an old PowerPC 8500/132 (actually, I think it was upgraded -
> 150 maybe??). I'd like to install Debian on it (my first experience
> with Linux).

Since this will be your first experience with Linux, installing on an
OldWorld PowerPC won't be as easy, but still quite doable and, in fact,
a way to "rescue" such machines, as Apple doesn't seem to care about
them.

> The HCL at http://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/Apple doesn't list the 8500 -
> the oldest machines on it seem to be G3s.
>
> So what's the best version of Debian to install?

Others may suggest you to boot into MacOS (the classic version, not
MacOS X), use BootX and then load Linux.

It seems that a version of MacOS 7.x can be downloaded legally somewhere
from Apple's site (please, if you go that route, it would be a good
thing if you posted the link here to the list).

OTOH, I prefer to use something that doesn't require another OS to run
Linux. In that situation, I would use either a boot floppy made with a
tool called miboot or boot using quik (which is, in some ways, similar
to using LILO).

Unfortunately, the OldWorld machines have some problems with their
"bios" (actually called "Open Firmware") and they don't always show you
what is going on if you activate it (pressing the combination Command +
Option + O + F right after the chime when the machine is turned on).

Unfortunately #2, for legal purposes, it is not allowed to distribute
bootable CDs for OldWorld machines (like yours), which is, essentially,
what makes this a patience exercise. If it were not for that, then
installing Linux on your powermac would be as easy as on "PCs".

I don't know if modern versions of Debian support installation on your
machine, but you can surely install anything if you get Debian's woody
version of the boot floppies, install a minimal system from there and
just upgrade things to a newer release (having the world of Free
Software at your fingertips).

What I described in the paragraph above is not for the faint of the
heart, but it used to work (I have to get the dust off my PowerMac
9500/180MP which has a G3 upgrade card).

> Any special hints/pointers for a newbie appreciated.

Do yourself a favor and read at least a tiny bit of NetBSDs guide to
Open Firmware and the partitioning guide that Branden Robinson wrote
about installing Debian on his old iBook.

Despite the fact that the iBook has a slightly different procedure to
boot the system, once you are running the system, things are much more
similar.

> Thanks for your help.


Hope this helps, Rogério Brito.

--
Rogério Brito : rbrito@{mackenzie,ime.usp}.br : GPG key 1024D/7C2CAEB8
http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito : http://meusite.mackenzie.com.br/rbrito
Projects: algorithms.berlios.de : lame.sf.net : vrms.alioth.debian.org


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[Hartwig Atrops-2]

Hi.

> I have an old PowerPC 8500/132 (actually, I think it was upgraded -
> 150 maybe??). I'd like to install Debian on it (my first experience
> with Linux).
>
> The HCL at http://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/Apple doesn't list the 8500 -
> the oldest machines on it seem to be G3s.

I own an old PowerMac9500, installed Debian Sarge (Debian 3.1) on it. It
works, but I would not want to use it as a graphics workstation: to slow.
Maybe with a tiny window manager, I didn't try. I used it without monitor and
keyboard - as a database test server (postgresql).

> So what's the best version of Debian to install?

Didn't try anything but Woody and Sarge on that old hardware.

> Any special hints/pointers for a newbie appreciated.

You should check if you have enough memory for the graphical environment
(X11). Text mode probably will work, but is that what you want?

> Thanks for your help.

Your welcome.

   Hartwig


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[Frank Rubinsky]

Following up ...

On Sep 8, 2009, at 4:10 PM, Rogério Brito wrote:

> Others may suggest you to boot into MacOS (the classic version, not
> MacOS X), use BootX and then load Linux.


I have old copies of MacOS 8 & 9, so the BootX and load Linux looks  
like a good starting point for me.

> It seems that a version of MacOS 7.x can be downloaded legally  
> somewhere
> from Apple's site (please, if you go that route, it would be a good
> thing if you posted the link here to the list).


I looked around the apple site, and couldn't find any Pre-OS X  
downloads - there may be an archive somewhere, but I couldn't find  
it.  However, a couple of people in the Apple Legacy Software Support  
Forums had pointers to http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/operating- 
systems .  I have never used it and have no idea as to it's legal  
status, but it sure has lots of old MacOS versions.

Frank


"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities."   -Voltaire



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[Brad Boyer]

On Tue, Sep 08, 2009 at 09:05:54PM -0400, Frank Rubinsky wrote:
> I looked around the apple site, and couldn't find any Pre-OS X  
> downloads - there may be an archive somewhere, but I couldn't find  
> it.  However, a couple of people in the Apple Legacy Software Support  
> Forums had pointers to http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/operating- 
> systems .  I have never used it and have no idea as to it's legal  
> status, but it sure has lots of old MacOS versions.

I went and looked on the Apple support downloads web site (which is
at http://support.apple.com/downloads/) and saw a link to "Older
Software Downloads" (http://support.apple.com/kb/TA48312?viewlocale=en_US)
which appears to have page after page of old stuff, including System 6
and most of the versions of System 7 (looks like all but 7.6). This
page also has tons of old drivers and patches and stuff. The main thing
there that wasn't already free that you might want is a copy of 7.5.3,
and the update to 7.5.5 is there but was already a free download. That
was what would have probably shipped with an 8500. My 7600 which is
roughly the same age shipped with a CD that booted 7.5.3 but also had
the 7.5.5 update packaged in with it.

        Brad Boyer
        flar@...


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[José Jorge-4]

A Wednesday 9 September 2009 08:09:30, Brad Boyer escreveu:
> I went and looked on the Apple support downloads web site (which is
> at http://support.apple.com/downloads/) and saw a link to "Older
> Software Downloads" (http://support.apple.com/kb/TA48312?viewlocale=en_US)
> which appears to have page after page of old stuff, including System 6
> and most of the versions of System 7 (looks like all but 7.6).

Yah! This is where I have found how to start a Mac Plus that someone gave me :
it can boot any MacOs till 7.5.5. With his extended 4MB of RAM, it can know
the pleasure of linux ;-)

I think People discovering Linux with hardware more than 10 years old should
know that it will show how linux can deserve them...


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[Frank Rubinsky]

On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:09 AM, Brad Boyer wrote:

> I went and looked on the Apple support downloads web site (which is
> at http://support.apple.com/downloads/) and saw a link to "Older
> Software Downloads" (http://support.apple.com/kb/TA48312?
> viewlocale=en_US)
> which appears to have page after page of old stuff, including System 6
> and most of the versions of System 7 (looks like all but 7.6).


Good catch - I missed that page, but I just looked closely at it, and  
didn't see any base OS downloads.  Everything seems to be a point  
release update/upgrade - which requires the major release - which  
isn't on that site.   It looks like this page has everything Apple  
released for free but nothing (OS at least) that was sold (or  
included with new machines).

Frank

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities."   -Voltaire



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[Benjamin Herrenschmidt]

On Wed, 2009-09-09 at 05:52 -0400, Frank Rubinsky wrote:

> On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:09 AM, Brad Boyer wrote:
>
> > I went and looked on the Apple support downloads web site (which is
> > at http://support.apple.com/downloads/) and saw a link to "Older
> > Software Downloads" (http://support.apple.com/kb/TA48312?
> > viewlocale=en_US)
> > which appears to have page after page of old stuff, including System 6
> > and most of the versions of System 7 (looks like all but 7.6).
>
>
> Good catch - I missed that page, but I just looked closely at it, and  
> didn't see any base OS downloads.  Everything seems to be a point  
> release update/upgrade - which requires the major release - which  
> isn't on that site.   It looks like this page has everything Apple  
> released for free but nothing (OS at least) that was sold (or  
> included with new machines).

One option with those old machines is booting from OF. It's tricky,
requires a network with a BOOTP server and a lot of praying but ...

I have an old dual 604 SMP 8500 on my desk taking the dust :-) I've been
working on reviving it recently. There's various issues with recent
kernels in trying to boot them from OF, in large part due to bugs in
those old Apple OF.

If you don't find a solution involving MacOS or miboot, I'd suggest you
ping me every now and then to see whether I got a chance to sort out
some of those issues and get it back into a shape where it can be
netbooted with a debian install ramdisk entirely from OF.

Cheers,
Ben.


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[Brad Boyer]

On Wed, Sep 09, 2009 at 05:52:33AM -0400, Frank Rubinsky wrote:
> Good catch - I missed that page, but I just looked closely at it, and  
> didn't see any base OS downloads.  Everything seems to be a point  
> release update/upgrade - which requires the major release - which  
> isn't on that site.   It looks like this page has everything Apple  
> released for free but nothing (OS at least) that was sold (or  
> included with new machines).

I haven't tried downloading them, but I'm pretty sure there's a full
copy of 7.5.3 there. It's 19 floppy images, and that sounds about
right for the real build. I have it on CD so I didn't need them.

Here's the first one:

http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.5_Version_7.5.3/System_7.5.3_01of19.smi.bin

You'll also want to grab the update to 7.5.5 while you're there. It's only
three floppy images.

I'll admit it's hard to find anything on that page.

        Brad Boyer
        flar@...


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[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Sep 08, 2009 at 02:16:54PM -0400, Frank Rubinsky wrote:

> Hi All
>
> I have an old PowerPC 8500/132 (actually, I think it was upgraded -
> 150 maybe??). I'd like to install Debian on it (my first experience
> with Linux).
>
> The HCL at http://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/Apple doesn't list the 8500 -
> the oldest machines on it seem to be G3s.
>
> So what's the best version of Debian to install?

Sarge. Unfortunately, kernels more recent than 2.6.8 won't boot on my
8500.

You can upgrade the userland to etch, as long as you don't change the
kernel. When you hit lenny, udev will complain about the kernel being
too old; and when you try to go beyond lenny, libc will cause you
problems.

--
The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters
works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is
trying to fool the system.
  http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html


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[Brian Morris-2]

Might be the cpu. Mine has a 250mhz 604ev that came out of a '97 Power Computing Tower. I'm pretty sure it was a 2.6.18 I booted, as I remember all that pain around the 2.6.8 on my 3400 'book and booting the 2.6.15 from ubuntu and running etch on that until 18 and 20 where the RAM disk still wouldn't work and it required I built my kernel to not need it. That was fix in 26, but now there are problems in pc card support on the old world 'books 
(sigh).

Are there versions of the 8500, which can be verified by the date of mfg ? (as there were for instance with the Blue+White G3 tower Rev A and B).

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Wouter Verhelst <wouter@...> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 08, 2009 at 02:16:54PM -0400, Frank Rubinsky wrote:
> Hi All
>
> I have an old PowerPC 8500/132 (actually, I think it was upgraded -
> 150 maybe??). I'd like to install Debian on it (my first experience
> with Linux).
>
> The HCL at http://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/Apple doesn't list the 8500 -
> the oldest machines on it seem to be G3s.
>
> So what's the best version of Debian to install?

Sarge. Unfortunately, kernels more recent than 2.6.8 won't boot on my
8500.

You can upgrade the userland to etch, as long as you don't change the
kernel. When you hit lenny, udev will complain about the kernel being
too old; and when you try to go beyond lenny, libc will cause you
problems.

--
The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters
works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is
trying to fool the system.
 http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html

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[Risto Suominen]

I'm running Lenny on PowerMacs 8200 (PPC601) and 6400 (PPC603ev).
Kernel 2.6.26, booting with BootX 1.2.2.

I was unable to boot, until I managed to make the initrd.img small
enough, around 4 MB. I think the one on the install CD was small
enough.

Risto


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