Problem with compilation albums

[citykid]

Hi, I've just started using Banshee 1.0 under Ubuntu 8.04. I have imported by music collection which was previously maintained by iTunes. All good, except compilation albums appear in the Album Browser on the left with an album icon for each song in the album: If I select this album in the browser then I do indeed see just one song in the list on the right. But if I select all albums and find this album in the list on the right, then all songs appear grouped together as belonging from the same album. The files are organised like this: /home/sms/Music/Various Artists/Winter Chill (CD1) Has anyone seen this issue before? Any idea how to fix? Best wishes

[DREMA]

Yeah, I also have this problem with some albums, checked every tag but they are correct.
Anoyng problem :S

[Gibdogg]

citykid wrote:

I've just started using Banshee 1.0 under Ubuntu 8.04. I have imported by music collection which was previously maintained by iTunes. All good, except compilation albums appear in the Album Browser on the left with an album icon for each song in the album:

Yes I'm having the same problem.

I'm just trying Banshee for the first time after reading that it allows you to "search, browse and manage even the largest music libraries without batting an eye". How you're expected to do this with no support for compilations is a mystery to me!

Oh well, back to Amarok. Shame because it looked really good otherwise...

[KeithCu]

I'm having the same problem as below. My album browser has individual entries for every song even though the album name is the same. (Note, I don't copy my music over to the new structure if that matters.)

I read through the documentation and didn't find any way to fix this. I've seen lots of people talk about the *artist* browser and how to handle that with compilation albums, but I'm talking about the *album* browser.

Is it being looked into?

Thanks!

-Keith
-----

Gibdogg wrote:

citykid wrote:

I've just started using Banshee 1.0 under Ubuntu 8.04. I have imported by music collection which was previously maintained by iTunes. All good, except compilation albums appear in the Album Browser on the left with an album icon for each song in the album:

<p>Yes I'm having the same problem.</p>

<p>I'm just trying Banshee for the first time after reading that it allows you to "search, browse and manage even the largest music libraries without batting an eye". How you're expected to do this with no support for
compilations is a mystery to me!</p>

<p>Oh well, back to Amarok. Shame because it looked really good otherwise...</p>

[NeXXuS]

I had the same problem. You simply have to fill the tag "compilation abum artist" with various artists or something similar, and the album will be displayed as a single album with "various artists" in the album column, but every artist will still be listed in the artists column.

hope this helps
nxxs

ps: attached a screenshot pertaining to the relevant edit.

KeithCu wrote:

I'm having the same problem as below. My album browser has individual entries
for every song even though the album name is the same. (Note, I don't copy
my music over to the new structure if that matters.)

I read through the documentation and didn't find any way to fix this. I've
seen lots of people talk about the *artist* browser and how to handle that
with compilation albums, but I'm talking about the *album* browser. 

Is it being looked into?

Thanks!

-Keith
-----

Gibdogg wrote:
  

citykid wrote:
    

I've just started using Banshee 1.0 under Ubuntu 8.04. I have imported by
music collection which was previously maintained by iTunes. All good,
except compilation albums appear in the Album Browser on the left with an
album icon for each song in the album:

 http://www.nabble.com/file/p17765989/Screenshot.png 

      

<p>Yes I'm having the same problem.</p>

<p>I'm just trying Banshee for the first time after reading that it allows
you to "search, browse and manage even the largest music libraries without
batting an eye". How you're expected to do this with no support for 
compilations is a mystery to me!</p>

<p>Oh well, back to Amarok. Shame because it looked really good
otherwise...</p>

    

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[Steven Coté]

I'm having the same problem as below. My album browser has individual entries
for every song even though the album name is the same. (Note, I don't copy
my music over to the new structure if that matters.)

Assuming you're using a reasonably up to date version (this works in 1.4.3, the version that ships with most distros), then you need to set the Compilation Album Artist for each of the tracks in the compilation album.

I find the easiest way to do this is to select all of the entries in the album browser that you wish to group, this will filter the tracks to those on the album. Select all of the tracks and Edit Properties. Then check the Compilation Album Artist box and put something in the field (like "Various Artists" or some such). Then there's a convenient button beside the text field that will automatically set that value to all selected tracks.

Hope that helps!

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[KeithCu]

Hmmm. I saw that advice but I didn't entirely understand it because I thought it was to help with browsing by compilation artist.

I don't understand why is that necessary. When the albums have the same name, why can't the album browser group them together? My music collection is basically a bunch of compilation albums so it would be a huge pile of work to do this. Why can't software be smart and figure this out on its own? (Even assuming that there are cases with albums of the same name, then maybe it could use a heuristic and look at the directory structure.)

This sort of barrier increases the hassles for those who want to start using Banshee (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000052.html)

-Keith

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Steven Côté <steven.cote@...> wrote:

I'm having the same problem as below. My album browser has individual entries
for every song even though the album name is the same. (Note, I don't copy
my music over to the new structure if that matters.)

Assuming you're using a reasonably up to date version (this works in 1.4.3, the version that ships with most distros), then you need to set the Compilation Album Artist for each of the tracks in the compilation album.

I find the easiest way to do this is to select all of the entries in the album browser that you wish to group, this will filter the tracks to those on the album. Select all of the tracks and Edit Properties. Then check the Compilation Album Artist box and put something in the field (like "Various Artists" or some such). Then there's a convenient button beside the text field that will automatically set that value to all selected tracks.

Hope that helps!

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[Alexander Kojevnikov]

2009/10/13 Keith Curtis <keithcu@...>:
> I don't understand why is that necessary. When the albums have the same
> name, why can't the album browser group them together?

Because different artist can have albums with the same name, you don't
wan't to group them. See bgo#570889 [1]

If someone proposes a way to handle this that doesn't break properly
tagged files, I may implement it (see for example bgo#595820 [2]). In
the meantime, fix your metadata before you import the files. Picard
[3] is great at this, you can even feed all your files to it and it
will probably recognise individual compilation albums.

[1] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=570889
[2] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=595820
[3] http://musicbrainz.org/doc/PicardTagger
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[espresso]

On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 13:16 -0700, Keith Curtis wrote:
> Hmmm. I saw that advice but I didn't entirely understand it because I
> thought it was to help with browsing by compilation artist.
>

Each track has an artist and a compilation artist tag. The compilation
artist is not required, but if an album has one, it will be listed by
that artist in the album browser. To assign a compilation artist,

- Select all of the tracks on the album
- Right click and select "Edit track information"
- Check the box "Compilation Album Artist"
- Enter a value for the compilation artist
- Click the button to the right to set all compilation
  artists to this value
- Click "Save"

Do this once for each album.

>
> I don't understand why is that necessary. When the albums have the
> same name, why can't the album browser group them together? My music
> collection is basically a bunch of compilation albums so it would be a
> huge pile of work to do this. Why can't software be smart and figure
> this out on its own? (Even assuming that there are cases with albums
> of the same name, then maybe it could use a heuristic and look at the
> directory structure.)
>

You're assuming that people organize their files in basically the same
way. I have compilation albums with tracks in different directories, and
I have a media player with zero folder depth. Would this work in all
cases?

>
> This sort of barrier increases the hassles for those who want to start
> using Banshee
> (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000052.html)
>
> -Keith
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Steven Côté <steven.cote@...>
> wrote:
>        
>                 I'm having the same problem as below. My album browser
>                 has individual entries
>                 for every song even though the album name is the same.
>                 (Note, I don't copy
>                 my music over to the new structure if that matters.)
>        
>        
>         Assuming you're using a reasonably up to date version (this
>         works in 1.4.3, the version that ships with most distros),
>         then you need to set the Compilation Album Artist for each of
>         the tracks in the compilation album.
>        
>         I find the easiest way to do this is to select all of the
>         entries in the album browser that you wish to group, this will
>         filter the tracks to those on the album. Select all of the
>         tracks and Edit Properties. Then check the Compilation Album
>         Artist box and put something in the field (like "Various
>         Artists" or some such). Then there's a convenient button
>         beside the text field that will automatically set that value
>         to all selected tracks.
>        
>         Hope that helps!
>        
>        
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>         banshee-list@...
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>        
>
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[KeithCu]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Alexander Kojevnikov <alexander@...> wrote:

2009/10/13 Keith Curtis <keithcu@...>:

> I don't understand why is that necessary. When the albums have the same
> name, why can't the album browser group them together?

Because different artist can have albums with the same name, you don't
wan't to group them. See bgo#570889 [1]

There are also cases of different artists with the same name, so I can just imagine how you might propose to fix that! :-)

So it appears that there are going to be problems either way. But I believe you have the wrong default. I suspect there are many more cases of users with compilation albums than cases where users are going to have albums with the same name but by different artists. The vast majority of CDs made by a DJ or in the electronic music genre (music made by those things called computers) have this problem.

Another problem is that there are many DJ albums have multiple CDs and this should also be handled. (Here is a link to a classic example: http://www.amazon.com/Logical-Progression-Level-Bukem-Presents/dp/B00004T6V6) In this case, the metadata isn't always correct, which is where the CD directory heuristic could come into play.

If someone proposes a way to handle this that doesn't break properly
tagged files, I may implement it (see for example bgo#595820 [2]). In
the meantime, fix your metadata before you import the files.

I may try and run this tool but I disagree that my metadata is "broken". I've been ripping CDs for more than a decade now, and the songs have the track, artist, and album set and that ought to be enough.

-Keith

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[KeithCu]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Jon Cosby <jon@...> wrote:

On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 13:16 -0700, Keith Curtis wrote:
> Hmmm. I saw that advice but I didn't entirely understand it because I
> thought it was to help with browsing by compilation artist.
>

Each track has an artist and a compilation artist tag. The compilation
artist is not required, but if an album has one, it will be listed by
that artist in the album browser. To assign a compilation artist,

- Select all of the tracks on the album
- Right click and select "Edit track information"
- Check the box "Compilation Album Artist"
- Enter a value for the compilation artist
- Click the button to the right to set all compilation
 artists to this value
- Click "Save"

Do this once for each album.

And if we could have just gotten everyone to retype their Word documents in OpenOffice, it would have saved them having to build a DOC importer. ;-)

The point is, I'm not going to use a tool that has such a high upfront cost.
 

>
> I don't understand why is that necessary. When the albums have the
> same name, why can't the album browser group them together? My music
> collection is basically a bunch of compilation albums so it would be a
> huge pile of work to do this. Why can't software be smart and figure
> this out on its own? (Even assuming that there are cases with albums
> of the same name, then maybe it could use a heuristic and look at the
> directory structure.)
>

You're assuming that people organize their files in basically the same
way. I have compilation albums with tracks in different directories, and
I have a media player with zero folder depth. Would this work in all
cases?

Actually, I was just describing the process of what has been going on for the last decade as I have been sticking CDs into my computer (different operating systems, different ripping tools) and ripping them. Maybe I am "assuming" there are other users who have been using similar software, but I feel pretty safe with that.

P.S. I have never seen a compilation album with tracks in different subdirectories. A much more common problem is that albums have multiple CDs and I think the album browser should handle that.

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[Alexander Kojevnikov]

2009/10/13 Keith Curtis <keithcu@...>:

> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Alexander Kojevnikov
> <alexander@...> wrote:
>>
>> 2009/10/13 Keith Curtis <keithcu@...>:
>> > I don't understand why is that necessary. When the albums have the same
>> > name, why can't the album browser group them together?
>>
>> Because different artist can have albums with the same name, you don't
>> wan't to group them. See bgo#570889 [1]
>>
> There are also cases of different artists with the same name, so I can just
> imagine how you might propose to fix that! :-)

No need for sarcasm, I'm trying to help.

If you read the bug I referenced you will see that just grouping
everything by album name will break things. As I said, any ideas are
welcome, I may even try to code them as it appears to be a recurring
problem.

> I've been ripping CDs for more than a decade now, and the songs have the
> track, artist, and album set and that ought to be enough.

The other bug I mentioned [1] once fixed will solve the problem for new rips.

[1] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=595820
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[KeithCu]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 8:05 PM, Alexander Kojevnikov <alexander@...> wrote:

2009/10/13 Keith Curtis <keithcu@...>:
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Alexander Kojevnikov
> <alexander@...> wrote:
>>
>> 2009/10/13 Keith Curtis <keithcu@...>:
>> > I don't understand why is that necessary. When the albums have the same
>> > name, why can't the album browser group them together?
>>
>> Because different artist can have albums with the same name, you don't
>> wan't to group them. See bgo#570889 [1]
>>
> There are also cases of different artists with the same name, so I can just
> imagine how you might propose to fix that! :-)

No need for sarcasm, I'm trying to help.

Actually, it was just a little joke but that also points out a real problem -- even artist name along won't fully solve problems. When dealing in the world of humans, heuristics are usually required.

If you read the bug I referenced you will see that just grouping
everything by album name will break things.

I understand that. My point was that you have problems either way, but I think you should switch the default. As I said, the number of users with compilation albums must be higher than the number of users with different artists having the same album name.

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[NeXXuS]

You could just as easily tag your compilation albums differently, for example making the title tag "artist - title", and the artist tag "various". this would also solve your problem. The current way banshee handles compilation lbums seems more than sufficient. Switching the default is unnecessary, since the fix is so easy.


Keith Curtis wrote:

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 8:05 PM, Alexander Kojevnikov <alexander@...> wrote:

2009/10/13 Keith Curtis <keithcu@...>:
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Alexander Kojevnikov
> <alexander@...> wrote:
>>
>> 2009/10/13 Keith Curtis <keithcu@...>:
>> > I don't understand why is that necessary. When the albums have the same
>> > name, why can't the album browser group them together?
>>
>> Because different artist can have albums with the same name, you don't
>> wan't to group them. See bgo#570889 [1]
>>
> There are also cases of different artists with the same name, so I can just
> imagine how you might propose to fix that! :-)

No need for sarcasm, I'm trying to help.

Actually, it was just a little joke but that also points out a real problem -- even artist name along won't fully solve problems. When dealing in the world of humans, heuristics are usually required.

If you read the bug I referenced you will see that just grouping
everything by album name will break things.

I understand that. My point was that you have problems either way, but I think you should switch the default. As I said, the number of users with compilation albums must be higher than the number of users with different artists having the same album name.

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[Daniel Münch]

The "Album Artist" is the standard way to deal with compilation albums. Every tool with compilation support does this so we should stick to it for interchangeability and should not try to invent the wheel completely new (like apple did once again by introducing a "compilation" tag ti iTunes instead of sticking to standards).

There are many tag editors which make it easy to add "Album Artist" tags quickly, it is woth the effort.

if now the Artist list would be customizable to show album artist instead of 1.000.000 Artists, almost everything would be perfect :)

Daniel




Am Montag, den 12.10.2009, 19:25 -0700 schrieb Keith Curtis:

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Jon Cosby <jon@...> wrote:

On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 13:16 -0700, Keith Curtis wrote:
> Hmmm. I saw that advice but I didn't entirely understand it because I
> thought it was to help with browsing by compilation artist.
>

Each track has an artist and a compilation artist tag. The compilation
artist is not required, but if an album has one, it will be listed by
that artist in the album browser. To assign a compilation artist,

- Select all of the tracks on the album
- Right click and select "Edit track information"
- Check the box "Compilation Album Artist"
- Enter a value for the compilation artist
- Click the button to the right to set all compilation
 artists to this value
- Click "Save"

Do this once for each album.

And if we could have just gotten everyone to retype their Word documents in OpenOffice, it would have saved them having to build a DOC importer. ;-)

The point is, I'm not going to use a tool that has such a high upfront cost.
 

>
> I don't understand why is that necessary. When the albums have the
> same name, why can't the album browser group them together? My music
> collection is basically a bunch of compilation albums so it would be a
> huge pile of work to do this. Why can't software be smart and figure
> this out on its own? (Even assuming that there are cases with albums
> of the same name, then maybe it could use a heuristic and look at the
> directory structure.)
>

You're assuming that people organize their files in basically the same
way. I have compilation albums with tracks in different directories, and
I have a media player with zero folder depth. Would this work in all
cases?

Actually, I was just describing the process of what has been going on for the last decade as I have been sticking CDs into my computer (different operating systems, different ripping tools) and ripping them. Maybe I am "assuming" there are other users who have been using similar software, but I feel pretty safe with that.

P.S. I have never seen a compilation album with tracks in different subdirectories. A much more common problem is that albums have multiple CDs and I think the album browser should handle that.

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[KeithCu]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:08 PM, John Doe <nxxs@...> wrote:

You could just as easily tag your compilation albums differently, for example making the title tag "artist - title", and the artist tag "various". this would also solve your problem. The current way banshee handles compilation lbums seems more than sufficient. Switching the default is unnecessary, since the fix is so easy.


Keith Curtis wrote:

The question as to whether the current behavior is sufficient depends on what situation is more common -- users having compilation albums, or users having albums with the same name by different artists. In order to say that the current behavior is "more than sufficient", you'd have to present data about this topic, which you have not done.

The fix is not easy when you have lots of music. And I'm not necessarily certain I want to invest a bunch of time. I've been using totem (and beagle when I want to search by artist) for 4 years now and am not ready to make such a commitment to Banshee.

I'm also nervous about automatically re-tagging my music as I'm afraid it would screw up. I doubt the tool has an undo feature. So I'd have to back up my collection, and keep the backup around for a period of time. There is also a risk that I won't notice a problem until after I've deleted my backup. The metadata attached to my music is just as important as the music itself. Without the metadata, music is a jumble of bits on permanent shuffle. ;-) I'm far beyond the point that I will ever re-rip my CD collection again. And even CDs I've ripped a few months ago have this problem! As far as I'm concerned, it is years too late to put these requirements on new users.

I'm quite surprised that more users haven't complained -- I wonder if they have a higher pain threshold, or if you still have a relatively small user base. But if you become the default in Ubuntu, be prepared for the flood! (On this and other issues.) Just consider me the guy giving you the early warning signal. ;-)

I cranked up Rhythmbox just as an experiment and it handled it the way I expected. Note it doesn't handle multi-CD album compilations, which is another must-have feature in my mind. I won't use Rhythmbox but I think what other tools do is another useful data point to gather when evaluating "soft" features like this.

-Keith

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[KeithCu]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Daniel Münch <mailinglists@...> wrote:

The "Album Artist" is the standard way to deal with compilation albums. Every tool with compilation support does this so we should stick to it for interchangeability and should not try to invent the wheel completely new (like apple did once again by introducing a "compilation" tag ti iTunes instead of sticking to standards).

There are many tag editors which make it easy to add "Album Artist" tags quickly, it is woth the effort.

if now the Artist list would be customizable to show album artist instead of 1.000.000 Artists, almost everything would be perfect :)

Daniel

I'm not proposing we do anything like creating a new tag.

And music I ripped just a few months ago has this problem, so I don't know what you mean about "tools with compilation support" handling this properly. I stick a CD into Ubuntu, rip it, and then import the directory into Banshee, and it isn't handled properly. That is a very basic scenario.

-Keith

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[Steven Coté]

And music I ripped just a few months ago has this problem, so I don't know what you mean about "tools with compilation support" handling this properly. I stick a CD into Ubuntu, rip it, and then import the directory into Banshee, and it isn't handled properly.

If you're ripping tool isn't filling all of the meta-data tags, then perhaps you should file a bug with that tool.

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[KeithCu]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 2:01 AM, Steven Côté <steven.cote@...> wrote:

And music I ripped just a few months ago has this problem, so I don't know what you mean about "tools with compilation support" handling this properly. I stick a CD into Ubuntu, rip it, and then import the directory into Banshee, and it isn't handled properly.

If you're ripping tool isn't filling all of the meta-data tags, then perhaps you should file a bug with that tool.

Good idea. I am not very proficient in music tagging, but it appears that the default Gnome / Ubuntu ripping software has a bug. But that doesn't solve Banshee's problem of what to do with the millions to billions of improperly ripped CDs. In fact, it should make you more concerned about the right default behavior.

-Keith


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[NeXXuS]

Noone but you can do anything about your millions of improperly ripped CD's. And if Banshee doesnt suit your needs, try amarok. the 2.0 Version was still quite buggy the last time i tested it, but since their database sorts by track artist by default, making albums a subcategory, you might like that system better. But please dont expect the devs to change banshee because you cant seem to be bothered to either rip your cds properly in the first place, or correcting the error wich is quite simple. furthermore, if your collection is that valuable to you, you should always have a backup. not just because you might destroy it when retagging (ive tagged many albums with banshee, and interesteringly enough, by default none of the changes are comitted to files, only the database entries are changed).

I'm using picard for tagging, and i must say despite the fact that the musicbrainz database is quite small, i get exact results 99% of the time.

Keith Curtis wrote:

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 2:01 AM, Steven Côté <steven.cote@...> wrote:

And music I ripped just a few months ago has this problem, so I don't know what you mean about "tools with compilation support" handling this properly. I stick a CD into Ubuntu, rip it, and then import the directory into Banshee, and it isn't handled properly.

If you're ripping tool isn't filling all of the meta-data tags, then perhaps you should file a bug with that tool.

Good idea. I am not very proficient in music tagging, but it appears that the default Gnome / Ubuntu ripping software has a bug. But that doesn't solve Banshee's problem of what to do with the millions to billions of improperly ripped CDs. In fact, it should make you more concerned about the right default behavior.

-Keith

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