Q about ia32-apt-get

[Alex Samad]

Hi

Seems like there has been some traffic about ia32-apt-get, just
wondering if this is the new way forward instead of ia32-libs

is there any must read articles about ia32-apt-get ?

Alex


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[Goswin von Brederlow-2]

Alex Samad <alex@...> writes:

> Hi
>
> Seems like there has been some traffic about ia32-apt-get, just
> wondering if this is the new way forward instead of ia32-libs
>
> is there any must read articles about ia32-apt-get ?
>
> Alex

That remains to be seen. Some people want the old ia32-libs back but
so far the new maintainer hasn't uploaded it again. And I will keep
using and maintaining ia32-apt-get.

At the moment it is a "Pick your poison" situation.

MfG
        Goswin


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[Dave Witbrodt]

Goswin von Brederlow wrote:

> Alex Samad <alex@...> writes:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Seems like there has been some traffic about ia32-apt-get, just
>> wondering if this is the new way forward instead of ia32-libs
>>
>> is there any must read articles about ia32-apt-get ?
>>
>> Alex
>
> That remains to be seen. Some people want the old ia32-libs back but
> so far the new maintainer hasn't uploaded it again. And I will keep
> using and maintaining ia32-apt-get.
>
> At the moment it is a "Pick your poison" situation.

FWIW, I was always curious about whether it was possible for the Debian
to provide a more sane packaging system than 'ia32-libs' for 32-bit
libraries on AMD64 setups.  Now that 'ia32-apt-get' has moved from
experimental to unstable, I immediately switched to the new system to
test it and (maybe) help iron out any bugs.  In the long run, I think it
makes much more sense for Debian (and its derivatives) to do things this
way.


Dave W.


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[Alex Samad]

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 09:51:05PM -0400, Dave Witbrodt wrote:

> Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> >Alex Samad <alex@...> writes:
> >
> >>Hi
> >>
> >>Seems like there has been some traffic about ia32-apt-get, just
> >>wondering if this is the new way forward instead of ia32-libs
> >>
> >>is there any must read articles about ia32-apt-get ?
> >>
> >>Alex
> >
> >That remains to be seen. Some people want the old ia32-libs back but
> >so far the new maintainer hasn't uploaded it again. And I will keep
> >using and maintaining ia32-apt-get.
> >
> >At the moment it is a "Pick your poison" situation.

Okay I am ready to bit, but now I can't find ia32-apt-get in the repo
or on packages.debian.org ?

>

[snip]

>
>

--
"What I am against is quotas. I am against hard quotas, quotas they basically delineate based upon whatever. However they delineate, quotas, I think vulcanize society."

        - George W. Bush
01/21/2000
as quoted by the San Francisco Chronicle

[Goswin von Brederlow-2]

Alex Samad <alex@...> writes:

> On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 09:51:05PM -0400, Dave Witbrodt wrote:
>> Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>> >Alex Samad <alex@...> writes:
>> >
>> >>Hi
>> >>
>> >>Seems like there has been some traffic about ia32-apt-get, just
>> >>wondering if this is the new way forward instead of ia32-libs
>> >>
>> >>is there any must read articles about ia32-apt-get ?
>> >>
>> >>Alex
>> >
>> >That remains to be seen. Some people want the old ia32-libs back but
>> >so far the new maintainer hasn't uploaded it again. And I will keep
>> >using and maintaining ia32-apt-get.
>> >
>> >At the moment it is a "Pick your poison" situation.
>
> Okay I am ready to bit, but now I can't find ia32-apt-get in the repo
> or on packages.debian.org ?

Ftp-master seems to have been overeager in removing stuff to make room
for the old monolithic ia32-libs re-upload. You can download the
latest source from

http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/main/i/ia32-libs-tools/

and build it yourself or wait for someone to sponsor an upload.

MfG
        Goswin


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[norv]

Hi Goswin,

Thanks for maintaining the new ia32-apt-get, I think it is a step forward to a true multi-arch environment.
One small question:
When updating a system with ia32-apt-get installed, should I run

sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
sudo ia32-apt-get update
sudo ia32-apt-get dist-upgrade

Or is that overkill?

Thanks again,
Norv



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[Goswin von Brederlow-2]

Norval Watson <norv2001@...> writes:

> Hi Goswin,
>
> Thanks for maintaining the new ia32-apt-get, I think it is a step forward to a true multi-arch environment.
> One small question:
> When updating a system with ia32-apt-get installed, should I run
>
> sudo apt-get update
> sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
> sudo ia32-apt-get update
> sudo ia32-apt-get dist-upgrade
>
> Or is that overkill?
>
> Thanks again,
> Norv

That is overkill and might even do the wrong thing now (starting with
version 23 you don't have yet). Starting with ia32-apt-get version 23
one can blacklist packages from one architecture so packages from
another are used. The example (and default config) being wine where I
want the i386 debs to be used instead of the amd64 debs. But the
blacklisting only works for ia32-apt-get and "apt-get dist-upgrade"
would happily install the amd64 debs. Because of the ~XX added to the
version in ia32-apt-get you would then be stuck with them.

Using only "ia32-apt-get" for all things is recommended to avoid
unexpected results. But if you forget then the system won't blow up.
It is not dangerous.

MfG
        Goswin


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[norv]

> From: Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@...>

>
> Norval Watson writes:
>
> > Hi Goswin,
> >
> > Thanks for maintaining the new ia32-apt-get, I think it is a step forward to a
> true multi-arch environment.
> > One small question:
> > When updating a system with ia32-apt-get installed, should I run
> >
> > sudo apt-get update
> > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
> > sudo ia32-apt-get update
> > sudo ia32-apt-get dist-upgrade
> >
> > Or is that overkill?
> >
> > Thanks again,
> > Norv
>
> That is overkill and might even do the wrong thing now (starting with
> version 23 you don't have yet). Starting with ia32-apt-get version 23
> one can blacklist packages from one architecture so packages from
> another are used. The example (and default config) being wine where I
> want the i386 debs to be used instead of the amd64 debs. But the
> blacklisting only works for ia32-apt-get and "apt-get dist-upgrade"
> would happily install the amd64 debs. Because of the ~XX added to the
> version in ia32-apt-get you would then be stuck with them.
>
> Using only "ia32-apt-get" for all things is recommended to avoid
> unexpected results. But if you forget then the system won't blow up.
> It is not dangerous.
>
> MfG
>         Goswin

Thanks for the clarification!
When I run apt-get dist-upgrade and ia32-apt-get dist-upgrade I get stuck with

E: Couldn't configure pre-depend libc6-i386 for lib32stdc++6, probably a dependency cycle.

And as you suggest I seem to be getting the a double dose of the same packages by using both commands.
Is there any way to remove all the the unnecessary packages?

Thanks again,
Norv



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[Goswin von Brederlow-2]

Norval Watson <norv2001@...> writes:

>> From: Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@...>
>
>>
>> Norval Watson writes:
>>
>> > Hi Goswin,
>> >
>> > Thanks for maintaining the new ia32-apt-get, I think it is a step forward to a
>> true multi-arch environment.
>> > One small question:
>> > When updating a system with ia32-apt-get installed, should I run
>> >
>> > sudo apt-get update
>> > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
>> > sudo ia32-apt-get update
>> > sudo ia32-apt-get dist-upgrade
>> >
>> > Or is that overkill?
>> >
>> > Thanks again,
>> > Norv
>>
>> That is overkill and might even do the wrong thing now (starting with
>> version 23 you don't have yet). Starting with ia32-apt-get version 23
>> one can blacklist packages from one architecture so packages from
>> another are used. The example (and default config) being wine where I
>> want the i386 debs to be used instead of the amd64 debs. But the
>> blacklisting only works for ia32-apt-get and "apt-get dist-upgrade"
>> would happily install the amd64 debs. Because of the ~XX added to the
>> version in ia32-apt-get you would then be stuck with them.
>>
>> Using only "ia32-apt-get" for all things is recommended to avoid
>> unexpected results. But if you forget then the system won't blow up.
>> It is not dangerous.
>>
>> MfG
>>         Goswin
>
> Thanks for the clarification!
> When I run apt-get dist-upgrade and ia32-apt-get dist-upgrade I get stuck with
>
> E: Couldn't configure pre-depend libc6-i386 for lib32stdc++6, probably a dependency cycle.
>
> And as you suggest I seem to be getting the a double dose of the same packages by using both commands.
> Is there any way to remove all the the unnecessary packages?
>
> Thanks again,
> Norv

That isn't a double dose or unnecessary packages. You just get the
exact same again since it failed the first time. The problem is a bug
in apt that makes it think it has a dependency cycle and you need to
do some hand holding till a workaround is added to lib32stdc++6. Try
the following:

ia32-apt-get install libc6-i386
ia32-apt-get install lib32stdc++6

If that fails reverse the order. But I think I remembered it right.
If that still doesn't work come back.

If that worked then upgrade/dist-upgrade should work again (unless one
of the other lib32* packages hits the same bug). This is an apt /
lib32* bug though, nothing to do with ia32-apt-get. That's why you see
it in plain apt-get too.

MfG
        Goswin


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[norv]

> From: Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@...>

> Norval Watson writes:
>
> >> From: Goswin von Brederlow
> >
> >>
> >> Norval Watson writes:
> >>
> >> > Hi Goswin,
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for maintaining the new ia32-apt-get, I think it is a step forward
> to a
> >> true multi-arch environment.
> >> > One small question:
> >> > When updating a system with ia32-apt-get installed, should I run
> >> >
> >> > sudo apt-get update
> >> > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
> >> > sudo ia32-apt-get update
> >> > sudo ia32-apt-get dist-upgrade
> >> >
> >> > Or is that overkill?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks again,
> >> > Norv
> >>
> >> That is overkill and might even do the wrong thing now (starting with
> >> version 23 you don't have yet). Starting with ia32-apt-get version 23
> >> one can blacklist packages from one architecture so packages from
> >> another are used. The example (and default config) being wine where I
> >> want the i386 debs to be used instead of the amd64 debs. But the
> >> blacklisting only works for ia32-apt-get and "apt-get dist-upgrade"
> >> would happily install the amd64 debs. Because of the ~XX added to the
> >> version in ia32-apt-get you would then be stuck with them.
> >>
> >> Using only "ia32-apt-get" for all things is recommended to avoid
> >> unexpected results. But if you forget then the system won't blow up.
> >> It is not dangerous.
> >>
> >> MfG
> >>         Goswin
> >
> > Thanks for the clarification!
> > When I run apt-get dist-upgrade and ia32-apt-get dist-upgrade I get stuck with
> >
> > E: Couldn't configure pre-depend libc6-i386 for lib32stdc++6, probably a
> dependency cycle.
> >
> > And as you suggest I seem to be getting the a double dose of the same packages
> by using both commands.
> > Is there any way to remove all the the unnecessary packages?
> >
> > Thanks again,
> > Norv
>
> That isn't a double dose or unnecessary packages. You just get the
> exact same again since it failed the first time. The problem is a bug
> in apt that makes it think it has a dependency cycle and you need to
> do some hand holding till a workaround is added to lib32stdc++6. Try
> the following:
>
> ia32-apt-get install libc6-i386
> ia32-apt-get install lib32stdc++6
>
> If that fails reverse the order. But I think I remembered it right.
> If that still doesn't work come back.
>
> If that worked then upgrade/dist-upgrade should work again (unless one
> of the other lib32* packages hits the same bug). This is an apt /
> lib32* bug though, nothing to do with ia32-apt-get. That's why you see
> it in plain apt-get too.
>
> MfG
>         Goswin
>

Thanks Goswin, that worked perfectly and now my system is up to date.
Norv



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[Alex Samad]

On Fri, Aug 07, 2009 at 07:13:35PM -0700, Norval Watson wrote:
> > From: Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@...>
>

[snip]

> > >>
> > >> Using only "ia32-apt-get" for all things is recommended to avoid
> > >> unexpected results. But if you forget then the system won't blow up.
> > >> It is not dangerous.


So just for clarity, once I have installed ia32-apt-get, I should only
use ia32-apt-get and not apt-get.  I presume ia32-apt-get installs its
self such that if I use aptitude, aptitude calls ia32-apt-get ?

Alex

> > >>
> > >> MfG
> > >>         Goswin
> > >
> > > Thanks for the clarification!
> > > When I run apt-get dist-upgrade and ia32-apt-get dist-upgrade I get stuck with
> > >
> > > E: Couldn't configure pre-depend libc6-i386 for lib32stdc++6, probably a
> > dependency cycle.
> > >

[snip]

> > ia32-apt-get install libc6-i386
> > ia32-apt-get install lib32stdc++6
> >
> > If that fails reverse the order. But I think I remembered it right.
> > If that still doesn't work come back.
> >
> > If that worked then upgrade/dist-upgrade should work again (unless one
> > of the other lib32* packages hits the same bug). This is an apt /
> > lib32* bug though, nothing to do with ia32-apt-get. That's why you see
> > it in plain apt-get too.
> >
> > MfG
> >         Goswin
> >
>
> Thanks Goswin, that worked perfectly and now my system is up to date.
> Norv
>
>
>
>       __________________________________________________________________________________
> Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
> Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au
>
>

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[Dave Witbrodt]

Alex Samad wrote:
>>>>> Using only "ia32-apt-get" for all things is recommended to avoid
>>>>> unexpected results. But if you forget then the system won't blow up.
>>>>> It is not dangerous.
>
> So just for clarity, once I have installed ia32-apt-get, I should only
> use ia32-apt-get and not apt-get.  I presume ia32-apt-get installs its
> self such that if I use aptitude, aptitude calls ia32-apt-get ?

No.  There was a version recently that attempted to install such
diversions, but it was withdrawn... though Goswin may retry soon.

You need to use 'ia32-apt-get' or 'ia32-aptitude' for ordinary package
maintenance, and 'ia32-dpkg', 'ia32-dpkg-deb', and 'ia32-apt-cache' for
other package issues.


HTH,
Dave W.


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[Michal R. Hoffmann]

Goswin von Brederlow wrote:

> Norval Watson <norv2001@...> writes:
>
>> Hi Goswin,
>>
>> Thanks for maintaining the new ia32-apt-get, I think it is a step forward to a true multi-arch environment.
>> One small question:
>> When updating a system with ia32-apt-get installed, should I run
>>
>> sudo apt-get update
>> sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
>> sudo ia32-apt-get update
>> sudo ia32-apt-get dist-upgrade
>>
>> Or is that overkill?
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Norv
>
> That is overkill and might even do the wrong thing now (starting with
> version 23 you don't have yet). Starting with ia32-apt-get version 23
> one can blacklist packages from one architecture so packages from
> another are used. The example (and default config) being wine where I
> want the i386 debs to be used instead of the amd64 debs. But the
> blacklisting only works for ia32-apt-get and "apt-get dist-upgrade"
> would happily install the amd64 debs. Because of the ~XX added to the
> version in ia32-apt-get you would then be stuck with them.
>
> Using only "ia32-apt-get" for all things is recommended to avoid
> unexpected results. But if you forget then the system won't blow up.
> It is not dangerous.
>
> MfG
>         Goswin
>
>

What if I'm using Synaptic then? Should I ia32-apt-get update first then
run Synaptic? But will Synaptic see the new packages and changes then?
Or Synaptic does maintain ia32- properly and it's enough to click
Refresh button there?

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[Goswin von Brederlow-2]

MRH <misiek_spam@...> writes:

> Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>> Norval Watson <norv2001@...> writes:
>>
>>> Hi Goswin,
>>>
>>> Thanks for maintaining the new ia32-apt-get, I think it is a step forward to a true multi-arch environment.
>>> One small question:
>>> When updating a system with ia32-apt-get installed, should I run
>>>
>>> sudo apt-get update
>>> sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
>>> sudo ia32-apt-get update
>>> sudo ia32-apt-get dist-upgrade
>>>
>>> Or is that overkill?
>>>
>>> Thanks again,
>>> Norv
>>
>> That is overkill and might even do the wrong thing now (starting with
>> version 23 you don't have yet). Starting with ia32-apt-get version 23
>> one can blacklist packages from one architecture so packages from
>> another are used. The example (and default config) being wine where I
>> want the i386 debs to be used instead of the amd64 debs. But the
>> blacklisting only works for ia32-apt-get and "apt-get dist-upgrade"
>> would happily install the amd64 debs. Because of the ~XX added to the
>> version in ia32-apt-get you would then be stuck with them.
>>
>> Using only "ia32-apt-get" for all things is recommended to avoid
>> unexpected results. But if you forget then the system won't blow up.
>> It is not dangerous.
>>
>> MfG
>>         Goswin
>>
>>
>
> What if I'm using Synaptic then? Should I ia32-apt-get update first
> then run Synaptic? But will Synaptic see the new packages and changes
> then? Or Synaptic does maintain ia32- properly and it's enough to
> click Refresh button there?

Then you need to create an ia32-synaptic wrapper. Since ia32-apt-get
was forced to use /var/lib/ia32-apt/ as state directory instead of
/var/lib/apt/ synaptic will not see ia32- packages apart from those
already installed. It will never update as it will never see a newer
version.

Synaptic accepts and needs the same command line options as aptitude
and you can nearly copy ia32-aptitude verbatim. The only difference is
that synaptic resides in /usr/sbin. So change the CMD setting at the
top from /usr/bin to /usr/sbin like this:

  # Make sure we wrap something that exists
  CMD="/usr/sbin/$(basename "$0" | sed 's/^ia32-//')"

After that you can use "ia32-synaptic update" to update the packages
lists. "Edit->Reload Package information" will not work and give
errors so you always need to do update from the command line, same
reason as in aptitude. For everything else (installtion, removals,
browsing, ...) plain "ia32-synaptic" seems to work perfectly.

MfG
        Goswin


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[Michal R. Hoffmann]

Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> MRH <misiek_spam@...> writes:
[cut]

>
> Then you need to create an ia32-synaptic wrapper. Since ia32-apt-get
> was forced to use /var/lib/ia32-apt/ as state directory instead of
> /var/lib/apt/ synaptic will not see ia32- packages apart from those
> already installed. It will never update as it will never see a newer
> version.
>
> Synaptic accepts and needs the same command line options as aptitude
> and you can nearly copy ia32-aptitude verbatim. The only difference is
> that synaptic resides in /usr/sbin. So change the CMD setting at the
> top from /usr/bin to /usr/sbin like this:
>
>   # Make sure we wrap something that exists
>   CMD="/usr/sbin/$(basename "$0" | sed 's/^ia32-//')"
>
> After that you can use "ia32-synaptic update" to update the packages
> lists. "Edit->Reload Package information" will not work and give
> errors so you always need to do update from the command line, same
> reason as in aptitude. For everything else (installtion, removals,
> browsing, ...) plain "ia32-synaptic" seems to work perfectly.
>
> MfG
>         Goswin
>

It works as you said, thanks :) I placed the ia32-synaptic wrapper in
/usr/local/sbin and run it with gksu ia32-synaptic.

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[Michal R. Hoffmann]

Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> MRH <misiek_spam@...> writes:
[cut]

>
> Then you need to create an ia32-synaptic wrapper. Since ia32-apt-get
> was forced to use /var/lib/ia32-apt/ as state directory instead of
> /var/lib/apt/ synaptic will not see ia32- packages apart from those
> already installed. It will never update as it will never see a newer
> version.
>
> Synaptic accepts and needs the same command line options as aptitude
> and you can nearly copy ia32-aptitude verbatim. The only difference is
> that synaptic resides in /usr/sbin. So change the CMD setting at the
> top from /usr/bin to /usr/sbin like this:
>
>   # Make sure we wrap something that exists
>   CMD="/usr/sbin/$(basename "$0" | sed 's/^ia32-//')"
>
> After that you can use "ia32-synaptic update" to update the packages
> lists. "Edit->Reload Package information" will not work and give
> errors so you always need to do update from the command line, same
> reason as in aptitude. For everything else (installtion, removals,
> browsing, ...) plain "ia32-synaptic" seems to work perfectly.
>
> MfG
>         Goswin
>

It works as you said, thanks :) I placed the ia32-synaptic wrapper in
/usr/local/sbin and run it with gksu ia32-synaptic.

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Hello all,

I thought about this problem and I have got the idea, to add an
"apt-get-something", which is using ia32-apt-get and apt-get just to the
reqquired needs.

This apt-get-something should be configured by a apt-get-something.conf (or
similar), where you can preconfigure if you use only 64-bit or additionally 32-
bit.

According to this conf, this would either call apt-get or ia32-apt-get.

In the future maybe both apt-get versions might be merged to one single apt-
get-new-somethingm which is always used.

Just an idea, maybe you like it....


Best regards


Hans-J. Ullrich


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[Goswin von Brederlow-2]

"Hans-J. Ullrich" <hans.ullrich@...> writes:

> Hello all,
>
> I thought about this problem and I have got the idea, to add an
> "apt-get-something", which is using ia32-apt-get and apt-get just to the
> reqquired needs.
>
> This apt-get-something should be configured by a apt-get-something.conf (or
> similar), where you can preconfigure if you use only 64-bit or additionally 32-
> bit.
>
> According to this conf, this would either call apt-get or ia32-apt-get.
>
> In the future maybe both apt-get versions might be merged to one single apt-
> get-new-somethingm which is always used.
>
> Just an idea, maybe you like it....
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
> Hans-J. Ullrich

If you look at the ia32-apt-get script you will see at the bottom:

case "$(get_action "$@")" in
  update) update "$@";
          if [ $RES -gt 0 ]; then
            echo >&2 "Warning: apt-get returned error $RES"
            echo >&2 "         Check above for the Warning or Error message."
            exit $RES
          fi;;
  *) PATH="/usr/share/ia32-apt-get:$PATH" apt_get "$@";;
esac

For everything but update the normal apt-get/aptitude/synaptic
(whatever the wrapper name is) is called. There is no apt-get for
64bit stuff and apt-get for 32bit stuff.


And by the way:

If you only want 64bit stuff then why do you have ia32-apt-get
installed? No need for a conffile. Just don't install ia32-apt-get if
you don't want it.

If you want 32bit and 64bit stuff then ia32-apt-get handles all of
that. There is never a need to call apt-get or aptitude as the exact
same command prefixed with ia32- will do. The only reason for the
ia32- prefix is that if there is a serious bug in ia32-apt-get and it
stops working you still have a fallback to remove, downgrade or
upgrade ia32-apt-get. But that is rather a last resort emergency
situation and a conffile for that would be overkill.

MfG
        Goswin


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[Michael-352]

I can see that ia32-apt is a valid concept, and perhaps the first step toward real multiarch.
But left aside that i'm deliberately running Sid and used to screw the system since many years, let me speak on behalf of a desktop user. Then i just would expect more integration, namely: A converter (script) that installs all ia32 libs in use (depending on the packages installed) automaticly and cares for the incompatibility somehow (for example by setting up global aliases ?), so that even synaptics would be fine.

The 'upgrade' is smooth when users aren't urged to figure out how they can get what they had before, again. It also should offer a way to turn back safely without manual re-configuration.
That's what i would expect from a 'package management'.
For example, the upgrade to grub2 is a good demonstration.

As you can see I'm not talking about the library packages in the first place. I believe todays' user i won't care too much if there are 50 M more or less installed.

Now when we're talking about a 'clean system' then tell me that a system with two incompatible administration tools is clean! And future major changes in 'legacy' apt would probably mean another manual workload (as always with apps outside mainstream), including the time needed just to figure what's up.

That said, it's clear that Goswins packages are a step in the right direction. I actually wonder, Goswin, didn't you consider to engage in the apt upstream directly to work on multiarch ? Maybe they'd appreciate your help.






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[Michael-352]

Weird enough, i was able to reanimate googleearth by installing nvidia-glx-ia32, additional to nvidia-glx (in a debian legacy setup). The window started up before but didn't draw the actual graphics, just a blank screen.

Sad thing is that since few month, GE 4.2 doesn't run anymore, which had the one-mouse-'copter' navigation mode (Ctrl-G), the most genial thing on earth (since the linux kernel), and which they removed soon afterwards. 4.2. seems to miss libbase.so. and i guess it's just no more compatible, finally.


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