Question for all candidates about http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

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Question for all candidates about http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

by Charles Plessy-12 :: Rate this Message:

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Dear Steve, Luk and Stefano,


thank you very much for the time and efforts you are proposing to dedicate to
the Project !

Our Consitution suggests a stronger leadership of the DPL the discussions:

 9. Lead discussions amongst Developers.

    The Project Leader should attempt to participate in discussions amongst the
    Developers in a helpful way which seeks to bring the discussion to bear on the
    key issues at hand. The Project Leader should not use the Leadership position
    to promote their own personal views.

http://www.debian.org/devel/constitution.en.html#5

Given how heated discussions can become in Debian, it seems that many previous
Leaders have chosen to have a cooling role rather than a conducting role.
Nevertheless, how do you intend to act in the context of this 5.1.9 article if
you are elected ? In particular, there is already a long list of subjects on
the Wiki. Can you comment about it ?

http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny


Have a nice day,

--
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Question for all candidates about http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

by Stefano Zacchiroli :: Rate this Message:

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On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:13:30AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> thank you very much for the time and efforts you are proposing to
> dedicate to the Project !

Hi Charles, thanks for your question.

> Our Consitution suggests a stronger leadership of the DPL the
> discussions:
<snip>
> Given how heated discussions can become in Debian, it seems that
> many previous Leaders have chosen to have a cooling role rather than
> a conducting role.  Nevertheless, how do you intend to act in the
> context of this 5.1.9 article if you are elected ? In particular,
> there is already a long list of subjects on the Wiki. Can you
> comment about it ?

I concur with constitution that the DPL should "lead discussions", it
is one of the main topics of my platform [1]. The question is of
course what does "lead discussions" means. I don't think the DPL
should post in every thread or something such, we are mature enough
for not needing that, no matter how heated our discussions can become.
When discussions are not broken, do not attempt to fix them (note that
nowadays this is often the case).

The DPL should nonetheless have a notion of "agenda", i.e., a list of
important topics that the project should consider in a given time
frame. The page you mentioned, cited in [1], proves that at least some
of us feel we need that. As the DPL ("if" as usual ...), I will ensure
topics of the agenda do not remain unaddressed. While I cannot
_guarantee_ that issues get solved, I will try to ensure they get
_faced_ by raising dormant topics on the appropriate lists when I see
fit.

When a discussion get "broken"---or too "heated" in your word---the
DPL should have a cooling role. There is nothing wrong with that and
we should probably give it a change more often. The cooling role can
be exercised in various ways, e.g.: posting à la position statement,
mailing privately individuals, or even, in extreme cases, proposing
constraining post measures to list masters (as we did in the past). I
intend to apply these devices as I see fit. I will also encourage
seeking the DPL opinion for specific topics when contributors feel it
is needed.

Shout if you rather wanted specific comments on some of the topics
currently listed on the wiki.

Cheers.

[1] http://www.debian.org/vote/2009/platforms/zack#sec:dpl-project

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...........| ..: |.... Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


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Re: Question for all candidates about http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

by Luk Claes :: Rate this Message:

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Charles Plessy wrote:
> Dear Steve, Luk and Stefano,

Hi Charles

> thank you very much for the time and efforts you are proposing to dedicate to
> the Project !
>
> Our Consitution suggests a stronger leadership of the DPL the discussions:
>
>  9. Lead discussions amongst Developers.
>
>     The Project Leader should attempt to participate in discussions amongst the
>     Developers in a helpful way which seeks to bring the discussion to bear on the
>     key issues at hand. The Project Leader should not use the Leadership position
>     to promote their own personal views.
>
> http://www.debian.org/devel/constitution.en.html#5
>
> Given how heated discussions can become in Debian, it seems that many previous
> Leaders have chosen to have a cooling role rather than a conducting role.
> Nevertheless, how do you intend to act in the context of this 5.1.9 article if
> you are elected ? In particular, there is already a long list of subjects on
> the Wiki. Can you comment about it ?

I would try to have people already involved in the discussion lead the
discussions and help them where needed (like I just did for the
Constitutional Issues thread).

I think the wiki page is a very good initiative and hope it will be used
to keep track of what discussions need to happen and to keep track of
their status.

Cheers

Luk


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Re: Question for all candidates about http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

by Steve McIntyre :: Rate this Message:

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Hi Charles,

Apologies for the delay in responding: I've been ill (as *always*
seems to happen around the DPL election period) and then had a funeral
to attend today. I hope next week is better...!

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:13:30AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:

>
>Our Consitution suggests a stronger leadership of the DPL the discussions:
>
> 9. Lead discussions amongst Developers.
>
>    The Project Leader should attempt to participate in discussions amongst the
>    Developers in a helpful way which seeks to bring the discussion to bear on the
>    key issues at hand. The Project Leader should not use the Leadership position
>    to promote their own personal views.
>
>http://www.debian.org/devel/constitution.en.html#5
>
>Given how heated discussions can become in Debian, it seems that many previous
>Leaders have chosen to have a cooling role rather than a conducting role.
>Nevertheless, how do you intend to act in the context of this 5.1.9 article if
>you are elected ?

What I've done so far is to encourage people making sensible points in
discussions where possible. I've not directly posted myself in many of
the larger heated debates over the last year, as I don't think that's
necessarily the best way to help. I hope to have more time to help cut
short some of the over-long discussions in the future, though: we have
a number of people at the moment who seem content to spend nigh-on all
their time on mailing lists and comparatively little actually *doing*
Debian work.

>In particular, there is already a long list of subjects on the
>Wiki. Can you comment about it ?

The wiki page [1] is an excellent way to help keep track of the
discussions that need to be returned to, and I'm glad that Miriam
started it for us. In the cases of the two major specific discussions
that we postponed until after Lenny (membership and non-free), we do
need to get back to those soon before they cast a shadow over Squeeze
too! Matthew Johnson has already tried to kick-start them, but without
much success yet.

I can also see that you have your own menu/desktop topic there too
that I expect you'll want to raise. What are your plans for that?

[1] http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@...
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
 English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on
 occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them
 unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."  -- James D. Nicoll


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Re: Question for all candidates about http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

by Charles Plessy-12 :: Rate this Message:

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Le Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:04:59PM +0000, Steve McIntyre a écrit :
>
> I can also see that you have your own menu/desktop topic there too
> that I expect you'll want to raise. What are your plans for that?
>
> [1] http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

Hi Steve,

First I plan to produce a document that presents the proposal whith avoiding
misunderstandings, and to present it when the issues on top of the list will
have been solved. I will not jump the queue.

Then the first issue is programmatic: the Debian Menu is managed by some
software written in C, and I am not a C programmer. So the goal of the kick-off
discussion will not only be to get a broad consensus that using the fd.o format
is good, but also to convince somebody to write the code. I think that the main
argument for the proposal is that after swithching to a widespread format, we
can submit Upstream the fd.o menu entries that can be used as is (and I really
think that it will be the majority), which would be a nice contribution from
Debian to the communauty, and would also reduce the complexity of our packages
and in the end reduce our workload (especially now that we have triggers).

Then goes the hard work: bug reporting, acceptance of the switch by DDs,
writing a Lintian check, submitting entries in Upstream BTSes, subitting
patches in our BTS, commiting patches in some VCSes,… I hope that by the time
all of this is started, the discussions on the quality of our archive will have
beared fruits and that we will be less shy removing packages that are obviously
unmaintained and that nowbody wants to adopt.

Last year I reviewed the debtags of ~100 packages in one month and a half; this
makes me confident that if I have a few monthes plus some help, I can fuel
perseverance and get the transition done.

Have a nice day,

--
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Question for all candidates about http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny

by Steve McIntyre :: Rate this Message:

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On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 11:47:49PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
>Le Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:04:59PM +0000, Steve McIntyre a écrit :
>>
>> I can also see that you have your own menu/desktop topic there too
>> that I expect you'll want to raise. What are your plans for that?
>>
>> [1] http://wiki.debian.org/DiscussionsAfterLenny
>
>Hi Steve,

<snip detailed plan>

Yay!

>Last year I reviewed the debtags of ~100 packages in one month and a half; this
>makes me confident that if I have a few monthes plus some help, I can fuel
>perseverance and get the transition done.

Cool, sounds good.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@...
  Mature Sporty Personal
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  A Man in Dandism
  Powered Midship Specialty


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