Questions about camping at 15 degrees.

[Joe Martinez]

I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or south rim.  Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30 degrees at night in valley.  According to the rangers I talked to today, temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley.  So, it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.

I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's left out?  Brought into the tent?  In the vestibule?

I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and will either add a liner or wear extra clothes.  Any problem with this arrangement?

Any other tips for camping at these temps?

-Joe

[Bob Bankhead]

Water freezes at 32°F and you are expecting 15°F. Let's do the math.

Unless your water bottles are both warm to start with as well as insulated, yes, they will freeze if left out overnight at 15°F. To what degree the water freezes depends on the volume of water and how long they are exposed to temperatures below 32°F. You could get anything from a skin across the top to a slurry to a solid mass. Storing them in the vestibule won't help and just in the shelter probably won't help much either.

At 15°, you don't want to risk a bottle leaking inside your sleeping bag, so if you do store it inside your bag (usually in the footbox) like mountaineers do, be sure the lid is secure AND seal the bottle in a leak-proof bag. Otherwise, put the bottle UNDER your sleeping bag wherever it's comfortable and won't roll out into the night air.

Another option would be to place the water bottles inside your shelter between your sleeping bag and that of your companion. If you're sleeping close enough together, the odds are pretty good the water won't freeze. Just be sure the tops are on securely. Hedge your bets by wrapping them in unused clothing.


Wandering Bob




  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Joe
  To: BackpackingLight@...
  Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 8:36 PM
  Subject: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.


   
  I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or south rim. Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30 degrees at night in valley. According to the rangers I talked to today, temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley. So, it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.

  I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's left out? Brought into the tent? In the vestibule?

  I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and will either add a liner or wear extra clothes. Any problem with this arrangement?

  Any other tips for camping at these temps?

  -Joe



 

[ed_rodriguez52]

Say Joe what kind of fuel or you going to use? If its a canister I would suggest you putting it in the foot of your sleeping bag. Also depend on what your walk thou place your boots near the foot of your bag this way your boots are not frozen when you wake up
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-----Original Message-----
From: "Bob Bankhead" <wandering_bob@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:04:43
To: <BackpackingLight@...>
Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.

Water freezes at 32°F and you are expecting 15°F. Let's do the math.

Unless your water bottles are both warm to start with as well as insulated, yes, they will freeze if left out overnight at 15°F. To what degree the water freezes depends on the volume of water and how long they are exposed to temperatures below 32°F. You could get anything from a skin across the top to a slurry to a solid mass. Storing them in the vestibule won't help and just in the shelter probably won't help much either.

At 15°, you don't want to risk a bottle leaking inside your sleeping bag, so if you do store it inside your bag (usually in the footbox) like mountaineers do, be sure the lid is secure AND seal the bottle in a leak-proof bag. Otherwise, put the bottle UNDER your sleeping bag wherever it's comfortable and won't roll out into the night air.

Another option would be to place the water bottles inside your shelter between your sleeping bag and that of your companion. If you're sleeping close enough together, the odds are pretty good the water won't freeze. Just be sure the tops are on securely. Hedge your bets by wrapping them in unused clothing.


Wandering Bob




  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Joe
  To: BackpackingLight@...
  Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 8:36 PM
  Subject: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.


   
  I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or south rim. Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30 degrees at night in valley. According to the rangers I talked to today, temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley. So, it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.

  I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's left out? Brought into the tent? In the vestibule?

  I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and will either add a liner or wear extra clothes. Any problem with this arrangement?

  Any other tips for camping at these temps?

  -Joe



 

[Bill-182]

Hi Joe,

The first thing I would note is that you are going for only 2 nights.
Even in the worst case you will not die of dehydration.  Avoid
hypothermia and focus on comfort and you'll have a blast.

At 15 degrees your exposed water will freeze.

Here's what I do....

I have a 40 ounce stainless water bottle (Kleen Kanteen brand).  Right
before bed I boil enough water to fill it.  I have a general-purpose
piece of Polartec fleece (used as earmuff, scarf etc) and when I go to
bed I wrap the bottle in the fleece.  It creates a nice central heating
effect in the sack.  The better you insulate the bottle, the better the
effect; it's warm and gentle and lasts a long time.  If it's not well
insulated then it's too hot to be near you; the heat gets dissipated and
wasted.  Be sure it's sealed well, or you'll be worse off than without
it.  Put it in a ziploc of you're paranoid about leaks; a ziploc isn't
waterproof, but it will contain the worst of it.

Keep the rest of your water near the heat source.  That heat source is
you, unless you had a hot fire that will keep a warmish microclimate
through the night.  In the tent is usually good enough.

If your water freezes, don't panic.  Set up a double boiler.  Fill a pot
and set your frozen bottle in it, then start it heating up.  So bring
plenty of *fuel* in case this is necessary.

Watch out for *condensation*.  Your breath collects on everything.  Make
sure it collects someplace where it won't cause a problem.  You need
prodigious amounts of *ventilation* in your tent.  Leave the door open.
It's better to have plenty of fresh air than to have your tentmate's
condensed saliva from the previous night dripping or snowing onto your
face as dawn cracks.

Make a *shemagh* from some Polartec fleece.  It's the best all-around
warmth-enhancing device there is.

I use a fleece bag ($10 WalMart special) as a sleeping bag liner when
it's cold.  The system is not as light or compact as the $800 specialty
bag, but it serves the purpose.  The fleece bag also works as a cloak
while hanging around before sack time.  Be careful about putting stuff
on top of your sleeping bag; compressing the fill negates the effect of
your additional item.

Have plenty of watery hot food, like soups and chili.  Even sipping hot
water will do a lot to ward off the chill.  Skip the salad.

If you have some clothing that gets wet, and you will need it the next
day, keep it with you.  Wring out the worst of the water, and wear it or
keep it in your bag.  Otherwise in the morning it will be just as wet
and also frozen.  Obviously, better to keep it dry in the first place.
Only urgently needed items fall into this category, like your last pair
of socks.

Keep your boots nearby too.  When I first wake up, I toss one of those
heater smack-packs into each boot, then roll back over for a few more
zzzz.  When I finally put them on, the chill is gone.

Empty your bladder completely before hitting the sack.  Completely!
Otherwise you will spend a miserable hour or two before dawn, needing to
go but too comfy to get up and face the cold.  That's a big advantage
for hammockers, no need to leave the nest as long as you've planned
ahead and have reasonable aim.

Bill

Joe wrote:

>  
>
> I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the
> north or south rim. Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and
> as low as 30 degrees at night in valley. According to the rangers I
> talked to today, temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler
> than in the valley. So, it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.
>
> I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering
> whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night
> if it's left out? Brought into the tent? In the vestibule?
>
> I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag,
> and will either add a liner or wear extra clothes. Any problem with
> this arrangement?
>
> Any other tips for camping at these temps?
>
> -Joe
>
>
>

[Joe Martinez]

Bob,

Yes, I know that water freezes at 32 degrees.  I guess I was mostly asking
if anyone had experience at around 15 degrees who could tell me how badly it
will likely freeze.  I'll consider putting it under my sleeping bag.  If
we're camping near moving water, maybe it would be best to just empty our
water bottles before going to bed, and refill with liquid water in the
morning?

-Joe

Yes, we'll be using a canister stove.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:27 PM, <ed_rodriguez52@...> wrote:

>
>
> Say Joe what kind of fuel or you going to use? If its a canister I would
> suggest you putting it in the foot of your sleeping bag. Also depend on what
> your walk thou place your boots near the foot of your bag this way your
> boots are not frozen when you wake up
>
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
> ------------------------------
> *From: * "Bob Bankhead" <wandering_bob@...>
> *Date: *Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:04:43 -0800
> *To: *<BackpackingLight@...>
> *Subject: *Re: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.
>
>
>
> Water freezes at 32°F and you are expecting 15°F. Let's do the math.
>
> Unless your water bottles are both warm to start with as well as insulated,
> yes, they will freeze if left out overnight at 15°F. To what degree the
> water freezes depends on the volume of water and how long they are exposed
> to temperatures below 32°F. You could get anything from a skin across the
> top to a slurry to a solid mass. Storing them in the vestibule won't help
> and just in the shelter probably won't help much either.
>
> At 15°, you don't want to risk a bottle leaking inside your sleeping bag,
> so if you do store it inside your bag (usually in the footbox) like
> mountaineers do, be sure the lid is secure AND seal the bottle in a
> leak-proof bag. Otherwise, put the bottle UNDER your sleeping bag wherever
> it's comfortable and won't roll out into the night air.
>
> Another option would be to place the water bottles inside your shelter
> between your sleeping bag and that of your companion. If you're sleeping
> close enough together, the odds are pretty good the water won't freeze. Just
> be sure the tops are on securely. Hedge your bets by wrapping them in unused
> clothing.
>
>
> Wandering Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Joe <joe@...>
> *To:* BackpackingLight@...
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 8:36 PM
> *Subject:* [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.
>
>
>
> I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or
> south rim. Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30
> degrees at night in valley. According to the rangers I talked to today,
> temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley. So,
> it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.
>
> I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering
> whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's
> left out? Brought into the tent? In the vestibule?
>
> I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and
> will either add a liner or wear extra clothes. Any problem with this
> arrangement?
>
> Any other tips for camping at these temps?
>
> -Joe
>
>  
>

[Joe Martinez]

Ed,

Yes, we'll be using a canister stove.  I'll put the fuel in the foot of my
sleeping bag.

Regarding the boots... When you say to put the boots near the foot of by
bag, do you mean outside or inside the bag?

-Joe

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:27 PM, <ed_rodriguez52@...> wrote:

>
>
> Say Joe what kind of fuel or you going to use? If its a canister I would
> suggest you putting it in the foot of your sleeping bag. Also depend on what
> your walk thou place your boots near the foot of your bag this way your
> boots are not frozen when you wake up
>
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
> ------------------------------
> *From: * "Bob Bankhead" <wandering_bob@...>
> *Date: *Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:04:43 -0800
> *To: *<BackpackingLight@...>
> *Subject: *Re: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.
>
>
>
> Water freezes at 32°F and you are expecting 15°F. Let's do the math.
>
> Unless your water bottles are both warm to start with as well as insulated,
> yes, they will freeze if left out overnight at 15°F. To what degree the
> water freezes depends on the volume of water and how long they are exposed
> to temperatures below 32°F. You could get anything from a skin across the
> top to a slurry to a solid mass. Storing them in the vestibule won't help
> and just in the shelter probably won't help much either.
>
> At 15°, you don't want to risk a bottle leaking inside your sleeping bag,
> so if you do store it inside your bag (usually in the footbox) like
> mountaineers do, be sure the lid is secure AND seal the bottle in a
> leak-proof bag. Otherwise, put the bottle UNDER your sleeping bag wherever
> it's comfortable and won't roll out into the night air.
>
> Another option would be to place the water bottles inside your shelter
> between your sleeping bag and that of your companion. If you're sleeping
> close enough together, the odds are pretty good the water won't freeze. Just
> be sure the tops are on securely. Hedge your bets by wrapping them in unused
> clothing.
>
>
> Wandering Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Joe <joe@...>
> *To:* BackpackingLight@...
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 8:36 PM
> *Subject:* [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.
>
>
>
> I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or
> south rim. Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30
> degrees at night in valley. According to the rangers I talked to today,
> temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley. So,
> it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.
>
> I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering
> whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's
> left out? Brought into the tent? In the vestibule?
>
> I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and
> will either add a liner or wear extra clothes. Any problem with this
> arrangement?
>
> Any other tips for camping at these temps?
>
> -Joe
>
>  
>

[ed_rodriguez52]

Really depends on it you can sleep with them in your bag and what kind of shap they are at the end of the day.  Or try putting the boots under the foot of your bag
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Martinez <joe@...>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:19:05
To: <BackpackingLight@...>
Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.

Ed,

Yes, we'll be using a canister stove.  I'll put the fuel in the foot of my
sleeping bag.

Regarding the boots... When you say to put the boots near the foot of by
bag, do you mean outside or inside the bag?

-Joe

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:27 PM, <ed_rodriguez52@...> wrote:

>
>
> Say Joe what kind of fuel or you going to use? If its a canister I would
> suggest you putting it in the foot of your sleeping bag. Also depend on what
> your walk thou place your boots near the foot of your bag this way your
> boots are not frozen when you wake up
>
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
> ------------------------------
> *From: * "Bob Bankhead" <wandering_bob@...>
> *Date: *Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:04:43 -0800
> *To: *<BackpackingLight@...>
> *Subject: *Re: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.
>
>
>
> Water freezes at 32°F and you are expecting 15°F. Let's do the math.
>
> Unless your water bottles are both warm to start with as well as insulated,
> yes, they will freeze if left out overnight at 15°F. To what degree the
> water freezes depends on the volume of water and how long they are exposed
> to temperatures below 32°F. You could get anything from a skin across the
> top to a slurry to a solid mass. Storing them in the vestibule won't help
> and just in the shelter probably won't help much either.
>
> At 15°, you don't want to risk a bottle leaking inside your sleeping bag,
> so if you do store it inside your bag (usually in the footbox) like
> mountaineers do, be sure the lid is secure AND seal the bottle in a
> leak-proof bag. Otherwise, put the bottle UNDER your sleeping bag wherever
> it's comfortable and won't roll out into the night air.
>
> Another option would be to place the water bottles inside your shelter
> between your sleeping bag and that of your companion. If you're sleeping
> close enough together, the odds are pretty good the water won't freeze. Just
> be sure the tops are on securely. Hedge your bets by wrapping them in unused
> clothing.
>
>
> Wandering Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Joe <joe@...>
> *To:* BackpackingLight@...
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 05, 2009 8:36 PM
> *Subject:* [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.
>
>
>
> I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or
> south rim. Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30
> degrees at night in valley. According to the rangers I talked to today,
> temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley. So,
> it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.
>
> I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering
> whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's
> left out? Brought into the tent? In the vestibule?
>
> I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and
> will either add a liner or wear extra clothes. Any problem with this
> arrangement?
>
> Any other tips for camping at these temps?
>
> -Joe
>
>  
>

[trailyogi]

I agree with the others regarding taking precautions on your water freezing, and using canister stoves.  

Another thing you should do is double up on your sleeping pads, as the ground itself can freeze up and act as a giant heat sink.  If you would normally be using anything other than an exped downmat or similar you should take something along the lines of a closed-cell pad like a GG thinlight or a ridgerest to put under your normal pad.  Also, with most bags rated to 15 degrees you will survive at that temp without additional clothes but won't be comfy.  If you have puffy layers take them.  

--- In BackpackingLight@..., "Joe" <joe@...> wrote:

>
> I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or south rim.  Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30 degrees at night in valley.  According to the rangers I talked to today, temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley.  So, it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.
>
> I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's left out?  Brought into the tent?  In the vestibule?
>
> I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and will either add a liner or wear extra clothes.  Any problem with this arrangement?
>
> Any other tips for camping at these temps?
>
> -Joe
>

[ed_rodriguez52]

Oh just remember something along with your cloths. I put my pants and jacket under me and what every thing I will put on at the start of the day. I really don't like to put on cold cloths when I wake up
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-----Original Message-----
From: "trailyogi" <naphas@...>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 06:33:58
To: <BackpackingLight@...>
Subject: [BackpackingLight] Re: Questions about camping at 15 degrees.

I agree with the others regarding taking precautions on your water freezing, and using canister stoves.  

Another thing you should do is double up on your sleeping pads, as the ground itself can freeze up and act as a giant heat sink.  If you would normally be using anything other than an exped downmat or similar you should take something along the lines of a closed-cell pad like a GG thinlight or a ridgerest to put under your normal pad.  Also, with most bags rated to 15 degrees you will survive at that temp without additional clothes but won't be comfy.  If you have puffy layers take them.  

--- In BackpackingLight@..., "Joe" <joe@...> wrote:

>
> I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or south rim.  Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30 degrees at night in valley.  According to the rangers I talked to today, temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley.  So, it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.
>
> I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's left out?  Brought into the tent?  In the vestibule?
>
> I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and will either add a liner or wear extra clothes.  Any problem with this arrangement?
>
> Any other tips for camping at these temps?
>
> -Joe
>

[Joe Martinez]

I plan to sleep in a Hennesey Hammock in my 15-degree bag, with a homemade
pad.  The pad is a layer of closed-cell foam pad (the kind from Target),
duct taped to one of those silver car windshield sun reflectors.  This pad
has always kept me very warm in the hammock in the past, but again, I've
never camped at temps quite this low.

My companion will be in a tent (mesh body with outer wall / rain fly).  She
will be in her 20 degree bag (probably with a liner and/or extra clothing).
She will use an Insul-Mat Max Thermo pad.

Does the above seem OK?

-Joe

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 10:33 PM, trailyogi <naphas@...> wrote:

>
>
> I agree with the others regarding taking precautions on your water
> freezing, and using canister stoves.
>
> Another thing you should do is double up on your sleeping pads, as the
> ground itself can freeze up and act as a giant heat sink. If you would
> normally be using anything other than an exped downmat or similar you should
> take something along the lines of a closed-cell pad like a GG thinlight or a
> ridgerest to put under your normal pad. Also, with most bags rated to 15
> degrees you will survive at that temp without additional clothes but won't
> be comfy. If you have puffy layers take them.
>
> --- In BackpackingLight@...<BackpackingLight%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Joe" <joe@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north
> or south rim. Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as
> 30 degrees at night in valley. According to the rangers I talked to today,
> temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley. So,
> it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.
> >
> > I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering
> whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's
> left out? Brought into the tent? In the vestibule?
> >
> > I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and
> will either add a liner or wear extra clothes. Any problem with this
> arrangement?
> >
> > Any other tips for camping at these temps?
> >
> > -Joe
> >
>
>  
>

[scott millbern]

I, personally, would go with a tent at 15 degrees over the Hennesey, but I
know other people sleep in them colder than that. For me at about that
temperature it starts to be warmer/lighter to sleep on the ground. The few
times I have been out that cool I've used treking poles and slung the
hammock between them, not great if it rains hard, but in a pinch...
I also like a down/primloft jacket to move around in my bag if I get cold
sports.

You might want to consider sleeping with 2 canisters for your stove if you
will be wanting to boil more than once, usually I am camping in colder
temps, but it seems like the the second liter of water always takes a long
long time. The only other problem I had with canisters was getting them to
work well in the evenings. I could not seem to keep them warm enough hiking
throughout the day to be efficient.

A plastic bag for the boots is key if you will get wet even a little. I like
using gaiters as well to help keep shoelaces dry.

Enjoy, I love backpacking in the winter! Less crowds, less bugs :-)

scoTt

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:04 AM, Joe Martinez <joe@...> wrote:

>
>
> I plan to sleep in a Hennesey Hammock in my 15-degree bag, with a homemade
> pad.  The pad is a layer of closed-cell foam pad (the kind from Target),
> duct taped to one of those silver car windshield sun reflectors.  This pad
> has always kept me very warm in the hammock in the past, but again, I've
> never camped at temps quite this low.
>
> My companion will be in a tent (mesh body with outer wall / rain fly).  She
> will be in her 20 degree bag (probably with a liner and/or extra clothing).
> She will use an Insul-Mat Max Thermo pad.
>
> Does the above seem OK?
>
> -Joe
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 10:33 PM, trailyogi <naphas@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I agree with the others regarding taking precautions on your water
>> freezing, and using canister stoves.
>>
>> Another thing you should do is double up on your sleeping pads, as the
>> ground itself can freeze up and act as a giant heat sink. If you would
>> normally be using anything other than an exped downmat or similar you should
>> take something along the lines of a closed-cell pad like a GG thinlight or a
>> ridgerest to put under your normal pad. Also, with most bags rated to 15
>> degrees you will survive at that temp without additional clothes but won't
>> be comfy. If you have puffy layers take them.
>>
>> --- In BackpackingLight@...<BackpackingLight%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> "Joe" <joe@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north
>> or south rim. Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as
>> 30 degrees at night in valley. According to the rangers I talked to today,
>> temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley. So,
>> it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.
>> >
>> > I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering
>> whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's
>> left out? Brought into the tent? In the vestibule?
>> >
>> > I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag,
>> and will either add a liner or wear extra clothes. Any problem with this
>> arrangement?
>> >
>> > Any other tips for camping at these temps?
>> >
>> > -Joe
>> >
>>
>>
>  
>

--
scoTt

mobile [phone]
skype scott.millbern

[yellowjacketlite]

I spent two consecutive nights at 15F on a 3 night hike in the Smokies back
in Jan of 2003.  Everything left out was frozen solid by morning.  Shoes,
sweaty shirts, sweat-lined shells, socks, water bottles, etc.  We were using
white gas so fuel wasn't an issue.

I didn't sleep with my boots (there was 4-6" of snow on the ground) and they
were really tough to get on the 2nd morning.  As they were wet inside and
out from a day's worth of walking in shallow snow.  They warmed up fast as I
started moving, but then so did the temperatures.

I had 2 Nalgenes that put inside my sleeping bag in the foot box.  Make sure
you sleep with (as a pillow,  wearing them, in your foot box, etc.) any
clothes you plan to wear the morning.  As that makes the transition from
sleeping bag to getting up a bit easier to tolerate.

If water is truly nearby, I'd just empty the bottles before I go to bed and
refill them in the morning.  If you are using a water bladder setup, make
sure you blow out any water in the valve and/or hose before your go to bed.

Make sure you take a balaclava to wear in bed.  It really seems to help when
combined with the bag's hood.  More so than just a hat.  And wear "loose"
socks.  If your socks are a bit tight (like most are), your feet can get
cold.  I have a pair of "blown out floppy socks" I wear just for such trips.

Have fun.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 1:17 AM, Joe Martinez <joe@...> wrote:

>
>
> Bob,
>
> Yes, I know that water freezes at 32 degrees.  I guess I was mostly asking
> if anyone had experience at around 15 degrees who could tell me how badly it
> will likely freeze.  I'll consider putting it under my sleeping bag.  If
> we're camping near moving water, maybe it would be best to just empty our
> water bottles before going to bed, and refill with liquid water in the
> morning?
>

--
Tony

[Munson-4]

We like to heat water and put in the waterbottle and sleep with it, this will warm you from chest out then you return the favor and warm the water.  Just tighten the lid twice before you go to bed.  The lid seems to change size slightly after warming the second tighten will fix it so it doesn't leak.  This has worked for us down to seven degrees.  My fuel bottle has its own "hat" that I also put around my ti bowl so I do not burn my hands while eating.  I sleep with my fuel as well.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: ed_rodriguez52@...
  To: BackpackingLight@...
  Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 11:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.


   
  Say Joe what kind of fuel or you going to use? If its a canister I would suggest you putting it in the foot of your sleeping bag. Also depend on what your walk thou place your boots near the foot of your bag this way your boots are not frozen when you wake up

  Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: "Bob Bankhead" <wandering_bob@...>
  Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:04:43 -0800
  To: <BackpackingLight@...>
  Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.


   

  Water freezes at 32°F and you are expecting 15°F. Let's do the math.

  Unless your water bottles are both warm to start with as well as insulated, yes, they will freeze if left out overnight at 15°F. To what degree the water freezes depends on the volume of water and how long they are exposed to temperatures below 32°F. You could get anything from a skin across the top to a slurry to a solid mass. Storing them in the vestibule won't help and just in the shelter probably won't help much either.

  At 15°, you don't want to risk a bottle leaking inside your sleeping bag, so if you do store it inside your bag (usually in the footbox) like mountaineers do, be sure the lid is secure AND seal the bottle in a leak-proof bag. Otherwise, put the bottle UNDER your sleeping bag wherever it's comfortable and won't roll out into the night air.

  Another option would be to place the water bottles inside your shelter between your sleeping bag and that of your companion. If you're sleeping close enough together, the odds are pretty good the water won't freeze. Just be sure the tops are on securely. Hedge your bets by wrapping them in unused clothing.


  Wandering Bob




    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Joe
    To: BackpackingLight@...
    Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 8:36 PM
    Subject: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.


     
    I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or south rim. Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30 degrees at night in valley. According to the rangers I talked to today, temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley. So, it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.

    I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's left out? Brought into the tent? In the vestibule?

    I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and will either add a liner or wear extra clothes. Any problem with this arrangement?

    Any other tips for camping at these temps?

    -Joe





 

[James D. Marco-2]

Joe,
        Yes, water *can* freeze. You knew that. ;-) I would not worry
too much about it, unless the weather says it will be very cold. At 30F
it will stay liquid in a 20oz bottle overnight.  This sounds a lot like a
trip into the High Peaks area of NY. Watch out for any black ice on the
trails, especially in the morn. Make sure you bring a staff or two.
        Ed mentioned canister stoves, and you said you were bringing
one. Unless you bring some sort of stove with a preheating coil, they
are not recommended for temps less than 32F, soo you might experience
some sort of failure. Some of the newer ones are pretty good as per the
recent discussion of them. Keep the canisters in your bag at night, else
they will burn the propane off. You will likely need an extra canister or two.
The universal fuel stoves are much better at lower temps, even if you
decide to stick with canisters.    
http://www.rei.com/product/784352
http://www.rei.com/product/767942
Regulated stove: http://www.rei.com/product/785338
http://www.rei.com/product/696978
http://www.rei.com/product/761901
http://www.rei.com/product/769451
Cheaper version, same thing: http://www.rei.com/product/769449
A liquid fuel stove would probably perform better in cold weather. Most
of these are about the same weight as my liquid fuel stove, albeit larger.
        The 15F Bag with your cloths on should be fine. Not sure about
hammock camping, though. (I only tried it for two nights and woke with
a really stiff back...could hardly walk for several hours.) The Neoair on
top of a GG Nightlight pad works really well for cold conditions. I am
certain it would insulate you better than what you have been using.
Sleeping on your bag will destroy any insulating effect. Soo, you need
some other form of insulation under you. Especially in a hammock,
the wind (convective heat escape) can be as bad as conductance
on sand, sometimes.  
http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/NightLight_Full.html
http://cascadedesigns.com/Therm-A-Rest/Mattresses/Fast-And-Light/NeoAir/product
        An enclosed tent will probably keep you and your partner warmer.
We typically register a +15-20F inside ours. Condensation is a fact of life.
Enough ventilation to defeat it and you get little temperature boost. A quick
wipe with a bandana dries it, mostly. Takes about a minute. this will not
work for long term cold weather, though. It will get all over everything,
eventually. But, just for a morning freeze it works fine. If you get the ice
drops, thats ok, but don't get them on your partner.... don't ask. We also
pile up leaves under the tent. LOTS of leaves, iff they are fairly dry. Also,
around the tent on the outside. Snow works as well, but I sort'a doubt you
will have any. (One of the reasons 4-season tents have high vents.)
        Get a long bag, generally speaking. this will let you put water and
stuff in the bottom... Boots are a problem. Snow, mud or trail muck, they
are always damp and dirty. A couple low weight baggies help, slip them
over your boots before putting them in the bag. Warming a quart of water
helps a lot too. The cheap water bottles I reuse will not take boiling water.
But, I make cocoa at night, then let it sit a bit, pour it into an empty and
throw this into the bottom of the bag with the rest of the water. Sorry, no
temperature reading, I do this by eye. Doing two, I slip one into each boot.
        Nothing dries overnight at those temps. The water is really too cold
to evaporate, unless the air is very dry. Avoid getting anything wet during
the day unless you *have* to. Streams, rivers, swampy areas, etc are
something you will have to get wet crossing. Sometimes you can do
some pole vaulting or rock skipping....anyway, change cloths when you
get done setting up camp. Dry the wet stuff by the fire ASAP.  Put them
in the bottom of your sleeping bag when you are done. Did I mention
a long bag?    
        You probably knew most of this, but I wasn't real sure about
anyone else. A couple good silnylon stuff bags are needed...dry bags
are great, too, but weigh a little bit extra. Depends on the weather....
Gloves, usually just liners are good, socks in case you need them.
A good hat, pull over recommended, for sleeping in. 30F is really
not that cold...till you stop moving, of course ;-)
        Not really sure who you have been talking to, but this is only
valid for elevations greater than about 500' difference. Generally,
heat rises, soo, the valleys tend to get a bit cooler that the ridges.
Actually, in any wind, the ridges can feel cooler... anyway, choosing
a camp site about 50' below a ridge will be the warmest.    
        My thoughts only . . .
                jdm
At 11:36 PM 11/5/2009, you wrote:

>I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or south rim.  Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30 degrees at night in valley.  According to the rangers I talked to today, temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley.  So, it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.
>
>I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's left out?  Brought into the tent?  In the vestibule?
>
>I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and will either add a liner or wear extra clothes.  Any problem with this arrangement?
>
>Any other tips for camping at these temps?
>
>-Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>
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James Marco
Computer Operations Manager, Desktop Support
Biomedical Engineering and
Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering
Cornell University
B78A Olin Hall,
Ithaca,  NY  14853
Office: 255-7312

[Andrew King-5]

For hammocking, I'm willing to bet that you will need to improve on your bottom side insulation for temps that low. Bottom side warmth is a lot more challenging than ground sleeping due to the convective heat loss. Of course it really depends also on whether you are a warm or cold sleeper, calories consumed, tarp side protection, etc. If you are sticking with foam pads, bringing along another spare is pretty cheap and lightweight insurance. You can find some nice wide foam pads optimized for hammocking at Oware and Gossamer Gear. Of course, the ultimate in hammock comfort is a down underquilt. You can find them at several vendors now rated down to those temps (Jacks R Better, Warbonnet, Te-wa), or combine them with pads as necessary. A great resource to learn about these issues is the hammock forums.  

--- In BackpackingLight@..., Joe Martinez <joe@...> wrote:
>
> I plan to sleep in a Hennesey Hammock in my 15-degree bag, with a homemade
> pad.  The pad is a layer of closed-cell foam pad (the kind from Target),
> duct taped to one of those silver car windshield sun reflectors.  This pad
> has always kept me very warm in the hammock in the past, but again, I've
> never camped at temps quite this low.
>

[Elizabeth Royal]

You will probably want an underquilt at that temp for the Hennesey. I tried it at about 20 before I had ever heard of an UQ and I abandoned it for the tent that all my friends were in since I was sooo cold.

E

--- On Fri, 11/6/09, Joe Martinez <joe@...> wrote:

From: Joe Martinez <joe@...>
Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: Questions about camping at 15 degrees.
To: BackpackingLight@...
Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 7:04 AM







 



 


   
     
     
      I plan to sleep in a Hennesey Hammock in my 15-degree bag, with a homemade pad.  The pad is a layer of closed-cell foam pad (the kind from Target), duct taped to one of those silver car windshield sun reflectors.  This pad has always kept me very warm in the hammock in the past, but again, I've never camped at temps quite this low.


My companion will be in a tent (mesh body with outer wall / rain fly).  She will be in her 20 degree bag (probably with a liner and/or extra clothing).  She will use an Insul-Mat Max Thermo pad.

Does the above seem OK?


-Joe

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 10:33 PM, trailyogi <naphas@sbcglobal. net> wrote:
















 



 


   
     
     
      I agree with the others regarding taking precautions on your water freezing, and using canister stoves.  



Another thing you should do is double up on your sleeping pads, as the ground itself can freeze up and act as a giant heat sink.  If you would normally be using anything other than an exped downmat or similar you should take something along the lines of a closed-cell pad like a GG thinlight or a ridgerest to put under your normal pad.  Also, with most bags rated to 15 degrees you will survive at that temp without additional clothes but won't be comfy.  If you have puffy layers take them.  




--- In BackpackingLight@ yahoogroups. com, "Joe" <joe@...> wrote:

>

> I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or south rim.  Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30 degrees at night in valley.  According to the rangers I talked to today, temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley.  So, it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.


>

> I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's left out?  Brought into the tent?  In the vestibule?


>

> I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and will either add a liner or wear extra clothes.  Any problem with this arrangement?

>

> Any other tips for camping at these temps?

>

> -Joe

>





   
     

   
   






 










   
     

   
   


 



 






     

[Bob Bankhead]

Joe -

The refill strategy should work fine. You're unlikely to get prolonged cold that could freeze your nearby water source.

You might want to keep one liter near you so you can drink during the night. Dehydration can hit hard and fast at altitude, especially when you add dry, cold air.

I see you are using a hammock, something I've not tried. As I recall, treeline in the Sierra is about 9500 feet.

Bob

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Joe Martinez
  To: BackpackingLight@...
  Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.


   
  Bob,

  Yes, I know that water freezes at 32 degrees.  I guess I was mostly asking if anyone had experience at around 15 degrees who could tell me how badly it will likely freeze.  I'll consider putting it under my sleeping bag.  If we're camping near moving water, maybe it would be best to just empty our water bottles before going to bed, and refill with liquid water in the morning?

  -Joe

  Yes, we'll be using a canister stove.



  On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:27 PM, <ed_rodriguez52@...> wrote:

     
    Say Joe what kind of fuel or you going to use? If its a canister I would suggest you putting it in the foot of your sleeping bag. Also depend on what your walk thou place your boots near the foot of your bag this way your boots are not frozen when you wake up

    Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: "Bob Bankhead" <wandering_bob@...>
    Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:04:43 -0800
    To: <BackpackingLight@...>
    Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.


     

    Water freezes at 32°F and you are expecting 15°F. Let's do the math.

    Unless your water bottles are both warm to start with as well as insulated, yes, they will freeze if left out overnight at 15°F. To what degree the water freezes depends on the volume of water and how long they are exposed to temperatures below 32°F. You could get anything from a skin across the top to a slurry to a solid mass. Storing them in the vestibule won't help and just in the shelter probably won't help much either.

    At 15°, you don't want to risk a bottle leaking inside your sleeping bag, so if you do store it inside your bag (usually in the footbox) like mountaineers do, be sure the lid is secure AND seal the bottle in a leak-proof bag. Otherwise, put the bottle UNDER your sleeping bag wherever it's comfortable and won't roll out into the night air.

    Another option would be to place the water bottles inside your shelter between your sleeping bag and that of your companion. If you're sleeping close enough together, the odds are pretty good the water won't freeze. Just be sure the tops are on securely. Hedge your bets by wrapping them in unused clothing.


    Wandering Bob




      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Joe
      To: BackpackingLight@...
      Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 8:36 PM
      Subject: [BackpackingLight] Questions about camping at 15 degrees.


       
      I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or south rim. Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30 degrees at night in valley. According to the rangers I talked to today, temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley. So, it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.

      I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's left out? Brought into the tent? In the vestibule?

      I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and will either add a liner or wear extra clothes. Any problem with this arrangement?

      Any other tips for camping at these temps?

      -Joe






 

[gvanpeski]

--- In BackpackingLight@..., Joe Martinez <joe@...> wrote:

>
> I plan to sleep in a Hennesey Hammock in my 15-degree bag, with a homemade
> pad.  The pad is a layer of closed-cell foam pad (the kind from Target),
> duct taped to one of those silver car windshield sun reflectors.  This pad
> has always kept me very warm in the hammock in the past, but again, I've
> never camped at temps quite this low.
>
> My companion will be in a tent (mesh body with outer wall / rain fly).  She
> will be in her 20 degree bag (probably with a liner and/or extra clothing).
> She will use an Insul-Mat Max Thermo pad.
>
> Does the above seem OK?
>
> -Joe
>

Joe -
My favorite tips for cooler weather:  Stop for an early dinner then hike on until you stop for the night, set up and hop into bed.  That way you're at least warm when you get into your bag, instead of chilled from sitting around for hours.  Admittedly, this is hard in winter with such short days.  Another alternative, which may not work in Yosemite because of bears, is to set up camp, but then take a brisk 30-minute walk before bed, again, to get the circulation going.  In the morning, I like to pack up and get going, then stop later for breakfast when it's warmer.  If there's water around, you can leave your water bottles empty so they don't freeze, and then just fill them up in the morning.  If you have a hydration bladder with a drinking tube, be sure at least to blow the water out of the tube before night, because once water freezes in those tubes it takes a long time to melt.  Have a fun trip!

--Glen

[DonL]

Joe, I hope you have a fun and safe trip in the glorious Yosemite Valley! It's a different but wonderful experience in winter.

I notice you're considering a hammock at perhaps 15* F. Here are my thoughts about that; hammocks are best for areas that don't get really cold. If you are a "ground sleeper" at 15*. then you have 15* above you and 32* (the temp of snow and ice) below you. In a hammock you'll have 15* above, around, and _below_ you, so it's that much harder to stay warm.

The most comfortable I've been when winter camping has been in snow shelters of one type or another, but that's another entire discussion, and maybe we'll get into it here soon. If not, there's lots of info. in our archives to look at.

I'm sure you'll do better than some folks I was with at -10* F. who burned down their tent! That was a real groaner, but with help they lived through it.

Like others, I also favor taking hot water in well-closed up bottles to bed with you. Some of my friends take _three_ bottles, one to hold in their hands, one for their back pocket area, and one for their feet. It assures you of having drinking water should you get thirsty during the night, and if the bottles are near your body you'll have liquid water for the morning and breaking camp. I bury extra water _upside down_ in snow inside whatever shelter we have. Upside down, because the uppermost part will freeze first.

It's also good to have most of your food already prepared; cheese cut up into bite-sized pieces etc. That way you can just pop them into your mouth rather than trying to cut them up under cold conditions. The cold makes doing nearly everything much slower and harder.
Best,  Don L.

--- "Joe" <joe@...> wrote:
>
> I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite ...................... > it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.
>
>

[William Comer]

Water freezes at 32, yes. My personal experience in winter camping is that
water skims over at night and the drinking tube freezes at about 25 for the
low. Blow into your drink tube to clear it and leave the bag with the drink
tube up or if in a "bottle" or other water container turn it upside down.
Water freezes from the top down so use that to your advantage. Other tricks.
Boil or heat water before bed and put it in a good sealing container and put
that in your sleeping bag at night. I have also put my "morning " water into
my cooking container before bed and heat the ice off the top in the morning.
In my experience at 15 with a little ice from overnight on the top of the
pot an esbit will boil it easily in the morning.

Pat C.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 11:36 PM, Joe <joe@...> wrote:

>
>
> I'm planning a backpacking trip to Yosemite 11/8-11/11, along the north or
> south rim. Expected temps are in the 60's during the day, and as low as 30
> degrees at night in valley. According to the rangers I talked to today,
> temps up on the rims are about 10-15 degrees cooler than in the valley. So,
> it could get as low as 15 degrees at night.
>
> I've never camped at temperatures that low before, and I'm wondering
> whether or not we'll need to worry about our water freezing at night if it's
> left out? Brought into the tent? In the vestibule?
>
> I have a 15 degree sleeping bag and my companion has a 20 degree bag, and
> will either add a liner or wear extra clothes. Any problem with this
> arrangement?
>
> Any other tips for camping at these temps?
>
> -Joe
>
>  
>