RE: CF Job Market

[Michael Perlstein]

I don't think it's all about salary.  Most people from my experience who have been using CF for longer periods of time, 10+ years, don't use CF in a way that truly leverages the oop attributes of the language.  In fact more times then not the longer someone has been using CF the higher the chances they use it in a procedural capacity.  This is especially true if CF has been for the most part the only language they feel comfortable with.  But even in circumstances where they know Java or .Net when one sits down to do CF if they are veteran of the language they revert to the procedural form.

 

Jr. to Mid level developers can often times imply that they have only been exposed to the J2EE platform versions of CF, especially if they have a comp sci degree where they are taught Java and C++.  They program oop if for no other reason then they don't know how to do it any other way.  So not only do you get the cheaper salary but you get someone with all the benefits of a true oop background..

 


 

Regards,

 

Michael Perlstein

VP Program Management


Rockville, MD

301.468.9246 x154



301.468.9670 (f)

703-869-6086 (m)

 

     





 

www.AboutWeb.com





 

-----Original Message-----
From:Dave Phillips experiencedcfdeveloper@...
To: "cf-jobs-talk" ;
Sent: Nov 6, 2008 02:03:59 PM
Subject: CF Job Market

Hi all,



My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior
level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the job
market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with the
economy the way it is here in the US.



What I'm concerned about most that I see is more job descriptions asking for
mid-level and junior developers, and lower salaries for those as well. I'm
wondering if I might have trouble finding a job when the time comes because
my salary demands would be too high and/or the employer would rather pay
someone a lower salary for less experience, thinking they are getting the
same efficiency.



Please share whatever your thoughts are on this topic. I think this thread
will be useful for anyone visiting it in the next 12-18 months, so let's
really try to provide some good 'intel', if you will on the 'near future' CF
market.



Thanks!



Dave Phillips











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[Michael MacDonald-8]

Michael,

You make a great point and your grasp of the reality of the current
landscape is commendable.  I am actually looking for Jr-Mid-Level CFMX
programmers for this exact reason.  Those with less "time in the market"
typically are less procedural and more likely to have an OO state of
mind.  Also, our company is looking to move to .NET in the future and
having someone who 1) knows CFMX from a CFC/OO standpoint will be more
likely to understand the architectural challenges of the OO world 2)
they are more likely to have a CS degree 3) They haven't developed a
view of "the way things should be".  Long timers have their way and any
other approach is met with hesitation and disdain.  Also, "greener"
programmers are more likely to have developed in Agile project
management style organizations.  If they haven't they are less likely to
rebuff this approach.

I want to preface all my comments with the fact that this is my view and
not the entire IT fields perspective.


Thanks,

Michael MacDonald
Sr VP, Product Development / NEOGOV
mmacdonald@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perlstein [mailto:mperlstein@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 2:15 PM
To: cf-jobs-talk
Subject: RE: CF Job Market

I don't think it's all about salary.  Most people from my experience who
have been using CF for longer periods of time, 10+ years, don't use CF
in a way that truly leverages the oop attributes of the language.  In
fact more times then not the longer someone has been using CF the higher
the chances they use it in a procedural capacity.  This is especially
true if CF has been for the most part the only language they feel
comfortable with.  But even in circumstances where they know Java or
..Net when one sits down to do CF if they are veteran of the language
they revert to the procedural form.

 

Jr. to Mid level developers can often times imply that they have only
been exposed to the J2EE platform versions of CF, especially if they
have a comp sci degree where they are taught Java and C++.  They program
oop if for no other reason then they don't know how to do it any other
way.  So not only do you get the cheaper salary but you get someone with
all the benefits of a true oop background..

 


 

Regards,

 

Michael Perlstein

VP Program Management


Rockville, MD

301.468.9246 x154



301.468.9670 (f)

703-869-6086 (m)

 

     





 

www.AboutWeb.com





 

-----Original Message-----
From:Dave Phillips experiencedcfdeveloper@...
To: "cf-jobs-talk" ;
Sent: Nov 6, 2008 02:03:59 PM
Subject: CF Job Market

Hi all,



My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior
level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the
job
market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with
the
economy the way it is here in the US.



What I'm concerned about most that I see is more job descriptions asking
for
mid-level and junior developers, and lower salaries for those as well.
I'm
wondering if I might have trouble finding a job when the time comes
because
my salary demands would be too high and/or the employer would rather pay

someone a lower salary for less experience, thinking they are getting
the
same efficiency.



Please share whatever your thoughts are on this topic. I think this
thread
will be useful for anyone visiting it in the next 12-18 months, so let's

really try to provide some good 'intel', if you will on the 'near
future' CF
market.



Thanks!



Dave Phillips













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[CF Developer]

I hope neither of you are making that a stereotype. I have 10 years as a CF developer, and EVERYTHING I do is OO, and I have a fundamental understanding of it, and use the usual OO frameworks like Mach-ii, ColdSpring, and Transfer (although I have developed OO apps without a front controller, too), and even built my own (closed, sorry) framework to solve specialized problems that the standard frameworks didn't. I have architected high-traffic, high-volume and high-revenue enterprise applications. Would you see 10 years on my resume and throw it out? I hope not.

I didn't post this looking for work, as I have a fulltime job (parttime freelance OK). I just wanted to respond to this thread.

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[Aaron Rouse]

I have been working with it since it basically came out in the 90s.  I do
some OO and some procedural, it really depends on who I am doing work for.
 For example some of the places I do work for have their own inhouse
frameworks and methodologies which are not OO but that is what you use when
you do work for them.  Then at the same time I might be doing an all OO
based application for some other client because either they requested it or
they did not specify and I just wanted to do it that way.  When I look at
people with 10+ years of experience I think beyond what their CF skills are,
I think of where their SQL skills should be amongst other things like JS and
so on but SQL probably is the bigger one for me.

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 2:03 PM, CF Developer <telecommuteme@...>wrote:

> I hope neither of you are making that a stereotype. I have 10 years as a CF
> developer, and EVERYTHING I do is OO, and I have a fundamental understanding
> of it, and use the usual OO frameworks like Mach-ii, ColdSpring, and
> Transfer (although I have developed OO apps without a front controller,
> too), and even built my own (closed, sorry) framework to solve specialized
> problems that the standard frameworks didn't. I have architected
> high-traffic, high-volume and high-revenue enterprise applications. Would
> you see 10 years on my resume and throw it out? I hope not.
>
> I didn't post this looking for work, as I have a fulltime job (parttime
> freelance OK). I just wanted to respond to this thread.
>
>

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[Scott Stewart-6]

I've gotta agree here, I've got 10 plus years, and I'm learning OO.
It's the same warped logic that assumes that a degree equals a better
developer.

CF Developer wrote:
> I hope neither of you are making that a stereotype. I have 10 years as a CF developer, and EVERYTHING I do is OO, and I have a fundamental understanding of it, and use the usual OO frameworks like Mach-ii, ColdSpring, and Transfer (although I have developed OO apps without a front controller, too), and even built my own (closed, sorry) framework to solve specialized problems that the standard frameworks didn't. I have architected high-traffic, high-volume and high-revenue enterprise applications. Would you see 10 years on my resume and throw it out? I hope not.
>
> I didn't post this looking for work, as I have a fulltime job (parttime freelance OK). I just wanted to respond to this thread.
>
>

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[Dave Phillips-10]

Michael,

"Long timers have their way and any other approach is met with hesitation
and disdain."

This is a personality issue, NOT a result of having 10+ years of experience.
I know plenty of CFers who have been around for 10 years that are doing OOP
in CF, including myself.  Also, I 'embrace' new approaches, not meet them
with 'hesitation and disdain'.  It sounds to me like you've just had some
bad experiences.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael MacDonald [mailto:mmacdonald@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 1:37 PM
To: cf-jobs-talk
Subject: RE: CF Job Market

Michael,

You make a great point and your grasp of the reality of the current
landscape is commendable.  I am actually looking for Jr-Mid-Level CFMX
programmers for this exact reason.  Those with less "time in the market"
typically are less procedural and more likely to have an OO state of
mind.  Also, our company is looking to move to .NET in the future and
having someone who 1) knows CFMX from a CFC/OO standpoint will be more
likely to understand the architectural challenges of the OO world 2)
they are more likely to have a CS degree 3) They haven't developed a
view of "the way things should be".  Long timers have their way and any
other approach is met with hesitation and disdain.  Also, "greener"
programmers are more likely to have developed in Agile project
management style organizations.  If they haven't they are less likely to
rebuff this approach.

I want to preface all my comments with the fact that this is my view and
not the entire IT fields perspective.


Thanks,

Michael MacDonald
Sr VP, Product Development / NEOGOV
mmacdonald@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perlstein [mailto:mperlstein@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 2:15 PM
To: cf-jobs-talk
Subject: RE: CF Job Market

I don't think it's all about salary.  Most people from my experience who
have been using CF for longer periods of time, 10+ years, don't use CF
in a way that truly leverages the oop attributes of the language.  In
fact more times then not the longer someone has been using CF the higher
the chances they use it in a procedural capacity.  This is especially
true if CF has been for the most part the only language they feel
comfortable with.  But even in circumstances where they know Java or
...Net when one sits down to do CF if they are veteran of the language
they revert to the procedural form.

 

Jr. to Mid level developers can often times imply that they have only
been exposed to the J2EE platform versions of CF, especially if they
have a comp sci degree where they are taught Java and C++.  They program
oop if for no other reason then they don't know how to do it any other
way.  So not only do you get the cheaper salary but you get someone with
all the benefits of a true oop background..

 


 

Regards,

 

Michael Perlstein

VP Program Management


Rockville, MD

301.468.9246 x154



301.468.9670 (f)

703-869-6086 (m)

 

     





 

www.AboutWeb.com





 

-----Original Message-----
From:Dave Phillips experiencedcfdeveloper@...
To: "cf-jobs-talk" ;
Sent: Nov 6, 2008 02:03:59 PM
Subject: CF Job Market

Hi all,



My job will be ending sometime next year due to a merger. I'm a Senior
level CF Developer with 10+ years experience. I am wondering what the
job
market is looking like out there for us senior type CF developers with
the
economy the way it is here in the US.



What I'm concerned about most that I see is more job descriptions asking
for
mid-level and junior developers, and lower salaries for those as well.
I'm
wondering if I might have trouble finding a job when the time comes
because
my salary demands would be too high and/or the employer would rather pay

someone a lower salary for less experience, thinking they are getting
the
same efficiency.



Please share whatever your thoughts are on this topic. I think this
thread
will be useful for anyone visiting it in the next 12-18 months, so let's

really try to provide some good 'intel', if you will on the 'near
future' CF
market.



Thanks!



Dave Phillips















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[S. Isaac Dealey]

Scott Stewart wrote:

> I've gotta agree here, I've got 10 plus years, and I'm learning OO.
> It's the same warped logic that assumes that a degree equals a better
> developer.
>
> CF Developer wrote:
>> I hope neither of you are making that a stereotype. I have 10 years
>> as a CF developer, and EVERYTHING I do is OO, and I have a fundamental
>> understanding of it, and use the usual OO frameworks like Mach-ii,
>> ColdSpring, and Transfer (although I have developed OO apps without a
>> front controller, too), and even built my own (closed, sorry)
>> framework to solve specialized problems that the standard frameworks
>> didn't. I have architected high-traffic, high-volume and high-revenue
>> enterprise applications. Would you see 10 years on my resume and throw
>> it out? I hope not.

Sorry for the length -- I'm having difficulty editing this email.
There's a question for the recruiters / hiring managers at the bottom.

I was having kind of similar thoughts reading this thread, although I
was hesitant to post a response. I may not be the most typical example
though because I happen to be autistic and I defy the stereotypes of
autism by also being very outgoing and have worked hard to do things
like blog and write magazine articles. I'm entirely self taught because
I botched my opportunity for college when I was younger and then taught
myself OO programming in C++ from books in '97-98 shortly before my
first ColdFusion job.

Although it may sound egotistical, over the years the CF community has
gradually moved more and more toward a style of OO development that more
closely resembles the way I've always worked. I had developed techniques
for creating polymorphism with ColdFusion 3 or 4 long before there were
CFCs. I wasn't the only one, there was the CFObjects project also as an
example. I was designing software in a "Convention over Configuration"
way long before I knew there was a name for it. And with recent versions
of ColdBox and Fusebox that idea has become much more popular. I also
started doing database abstraction with ColdFusion 5, long before it was
practical. These days it's commonplace in the ColdFusion community. So
for me, rather than getting "stuck in a rut", I've always been "ahead of
my time".

I also have kind of a history of accomplishing "the impossible". Things
that had been literally described as impossible by people with far more
experience than I have, like Sean Corfield or the engineering team at
Macromedia, and I didn't just do something "like" it or something
"similar to" what they described. I did exactly what they described as
having been impossible. A large part of the reason why I've been able to
do that is because in spite of having a decade of experience, I'm not
"stuck in my ways". I maintain an active spirit of experimentation. (I'm
not what you might call a nine-to-fiver who stops working when they're
off the clock. And I know some of the other folks who've replied are
also similarly passionate about their careers and about learning.)

And I give back to the community, or at least try to on a regular basis.
I recently published an upgrade path for legacy Fusebox applications.
Others in the Fusebox community seemed to be disinterested in making
that happen I think parimarily because they thought it would be really
difficult to accomplish. And I don't even use Fusebox for my own
projects -- I haven't for a long time (though I have for clients). But I
hammered out a solution in a few hours just because I saw a niche where
people were struggling with being "trapped" on an old version and I
wanted to help them out.

Personally my biggest career challenge is social. It's a long story that
I won't get into right now, but it's something that's common to people
on the autism spectrum. So for right now I'm mostly hoping to hear more
from people interested in having me help them integrate my open-source
projects on a contract basis. I would certainly consider an
architect-level job, although I haven't been aggressively pursuing one.

This message is probably longer than it should have been. That's one of
my challenges related to the autism. I'm not good at synopsis. ;)
However I do have a question here getting back to the subject.

What are the best strategies for a person like myself who's been doing
this for roughly a decade, if we wanted to aggressively pursue
architect-level jobs? I think this goes straight back to Dave's
questions. I know for a fact that I don't fit the stereotype of being an
"old dog" (to whom new tricks can't be taught). And several of the other
folks who've replied also fall in this category (I know some of them
personally). So how does one of us quickly and effectively communicate
that to a potential employer?

Most of us don't have magazine articles to show and even for those of us
who do it's kind of like blogs - the people doing the hiring frequently
don't have the time to read them or the skill to be very discriminating
about their content. And of course certification is out as a criteria
because there aren't any questions on the exam about the philosophy of
OO design and architecture. Which leaves me thinking that the only tool
we would have to communicate our ability to adapt is personal assurance.
Is that really the best available method of proving our abilities?




--
s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch
 isn't it time for a change?
     ph: 781.769.0723

http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog



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[Phill Nacelli]

This is correct for the most part.  Not a stereotype, since we know some long timers have also kept up with new trends in ColdFusion and other languages/technologies and are true Software Developers/Architects and not just ColdFusion Developer (I have made this distinction several times in the past as it's an important way to keep your career's future in mind!).

Problem also stems from the fact that people consider themselves or are given the title of "Senior" not by the amount of knowledge and up to date skills they carry in their bags but for the amount of time they have in this industry.  Software development technology changes too fast for people to rest their laurels and not keep up.  That's why I always recommend looking at the past 3 years experience on a candidate's resume since anything after that for the most part may not be helpful to me or the intended client.

Phill Nacelli
Senior Software Architect
AboutWeb LLC


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[Scott Stewart-6]

The internet is your best friend in learning OO theory. I'm fortunate
that my local CFUG has an OO god, in Dan Wilson who speaks at just about
every meeting, and is more than willing to answer the kind of stupid
questions I'll ask.

Anymore I take my laptop with me to interviews, I have CF and SQL Server
2005 running on it and I show people what I'm working on or fooling
around with. Just keep programming, and reading and asking questions no
matter how stupid they may sound to you. We're fortunate that ColdFusion
has a large developer community that's very willing to offer up answers
and advice, take advantage of it.

s. isaac dealey wrote:

> Scott Stewart wrote:
>  
>> I've gotta agree here, I've got 10 plus years, and I'm learning OO.
>> It's the same warped logic that assumes that a degree equals a better
>> developer.
>>
>> CF Developer wrote:
>>    
>>> I hope neither of you are making that a stereotype. I have 10 years
>>> as a CF developer, and EVERYTHING I do is OO, and I have a fundamental
>>> understanding of it, and use the usual OO frameworks like Mach-ii,
>>> ColdSpring, and Transfer (although I have developed OO apps without a
>>> front controller, too), and even built my own (closed, sorry)
>>> framework to solve specialized problems that the standard frameworks
>>> didn't. I have architected high-traffic, high-volume and high-revenue
>>> enterprise applications. Would you see 10 years on my resume and throw
>>> it out? I hope not.
>>>      
>
> Sorry for the length -- I'm having difficulty editing this email.
> There's a question for the recruiters / hiring managers at the bottom.
>
> I was having kind of similar thoughts reading this thread, although I
> was hesitant to post a response. I may not be the most typical example
> though because I happen to be autistic and I defy the stereotypes of
> autism by also being very outgoing and have worked hard to do things
> like blog and write magazine articles. I'm entirely self taught because
> I botched my opportunity for college when I was younger and then taught
> myself OO programming in C++ from books in '97-98 shortly before my
> first ColdFusion job.
>
> Although it may sound egotistical, over the years the CF community has
> gradually moved more and more toward a style of OO development that more
> closely resembles the way I've always worked. I had developed techniques
> for creating polymorphism with ColdFusion 3 or 4 long before there were
> CFCs. I wasn't the only one, there was the CFObjects project also as an
> example. I was designing software in a "Convention over Configuration"
> way long before I knew there was a name for it. And with recent versions
> of ColdBox and Fusebox that idea has become much more popular. I also
> started doing database abstraction with ColdFusion 5, long before it was
> practical. These days it's commonplace in the ColdFusion community. So
> for me, rather than getting "stuck in a rut", I've always been "ahead of
> my time".
>
> I also have kind of a history of accomplishing "the impossible". Things
> that had been literally described as impossible by people with far more
> experience than I have, like Sean Corfield or the engineering team at
> Macromedia, and I didn't just do something "like" it or something
> "similar to" what they described. I did exactly what they described as
> having been impossible. A large part of the reason why I've been able to
> do that is because in spite of having a decade of experience, I'm not
> "stuck in my ways". I maintain an active spirit of experimentation. (I'm
> not what you might call a nine-to-fiver who stops working when they're
> off the clock. And I know some of the other folks who've replied are
> also similarly passionate about their careers and about learning.)
>
> And I give back to the community, or at least try to on a regular basis.
> I recently published an upgrade path for legacy Fusebox applications.
> Others in the Fusebox community seemed to be disinterested in making
> that happen I think parimarily because they thought it would be really
> difficult to accomplish. And I don't even use Fusebox for my own
> projects -- I haven't for a long time (though I have for clients). But I
> hammered out a solution in a few hours just because I saw a niche where
> people were struggling with being "trapped" on an old version and I
> wanted to help them out.
>
> Personally my biggest career challenge is social. It's a long story that
> I won't get into right now, but it's something that's common to people
> on the autism spectrum. So for right now I'm mostly hoping to hear more
> from people interested in having me help them integrate my open-source
> projects on a contract basis. I would certainly consider an
> architect-level job, although I haven't been aggressively pursuing one.
>
> This message is probably longer than it should have been. That's one of
> my challenges related to the autism. I'm not good at synopsis. ;)
> However I do have a question here getting back to the subject.
>
> What are the best strategies for a person like myself who's been doing
> this for roughly a decade, if we wanted to aggressively pursue
> architect-level jobs? I think this goes straight back to Dave's
> questions. I know for a fact that I don't fit the stereotype of being an
> "old dog" (to whom new tricks can't be taught). And several of the other
> folks who've replied also fall in this category (I know some of them
> personally). So how does one of us quickly and effectively communicate
> that to a potential employer?
>
> Most of us don't have magazine articles to show and even for those of us
> who do it's kind of like blogs - the people doing the hiring frequently
> don't have the time to read them or the skill to be very discriminating
> about their content. And of course certification is out as a criteria
> because there aren't any questions on the exam about the philosophy of
> OO design and architecture. Which leaves me thinking that the only tool
> we would have to communicate our ability to adapt is personal assurance.
> Is that really the best available method of proving our abilities?
>
>
>
>
>  

--
Scott Stewart
ColdFusion Developer

Office of Research Information Systems
Research & Economic Development
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Phone:[phone]
Fax: [phone]
Email: sastew01@...



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[Nick de Voil]

> Software development technology changes too fast for people to rest their laurels and not keep up.  That's why I always recommend looking at the past 3 years experience on a candidate's resume since anything after that for the most part may not be helpful to me or the intended client.

If by "anything after that" you mean "anything before that", then you
may be missing rather a lot.

It's well over 20 years since I first started doing relational database
design, SQL, UNIX, TCP/IP, systems analysis, object-oriented
programming, agile project management, test-driven development,
automated builds and version control. HTTP and HTML have been around for
well over a decade. None of these things are remotely new. The most
complicated and important component of any system - the human being - is
also quite an old design.

What are the seismic changes that have taken place in software
development over the last three years that have made those technologies
pale into insignificance? From a web development point of view, the
biggest recent innovation that I can think of is ASP.NET's event model,
which is so contrived that it *deserves* to be met with "hesitation and
disdain" - and that's at least 6 or 7 years old.

Nick



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[Michael Dinowitz]

The second issue of the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update was all about CF
and OO. I'd say it's a good place to start.

--
Michael Dinowitz (http://www.linkedin.com/in/mdinowitz)
President: House of Fusion    (http://www.houseoffusion.com)
Publisher: Fusion Authority    (http://www.fusionauthority.com)
Adobe Community Expert / Advanced Certified ColdFusion Professional


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