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RFC: Major changes in ODS 12

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Dmitry Yemanov RFC: Major changes in ODS 12 - All, Below is the initial proposal (to be corrected/extended by others) that describes the physical ODS changes... Loading...
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Dimitry Sibiryakov-3 > Consider better alternative (instead of SQZ) for record compression. > Tests are required. If not found, extend... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Dimitry Sibiryakov wrote: >> Consider better alternative (instead of SQZ) for record compression. >> Tests are... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean > > Change offset fields from USHORT to ULONG to allow page sizes >64k. > > Change meaning of hdr_page_size from... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 >> > Change offset fields from USHORT to ULONG to allow page sizes >64k. >> > Change meaning of hdr_page_size from... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Vlad, > >> Do you believe in faster performance using bigger pages? > > > > Yes! > > > > Disk sub-systems are... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean > The engine/we should impose a limit because we think there might be a > problem, when we know that there are cases... Loading...
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Claudio Valderrama C. > -----Original Message----- > From: Leyne, Sean [mailto:Sean@...] > Sent: Lunes, 26 de Octubre de... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 >> >> Do you believe in faster performance using bigger pages? >> > >> > Yes! >> > >> > Disk sub-systems are... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Database page sizes WAS: Major changes in ODS 12 - Vlad, > >> >> Do you believe in faster performance using bigger pages? > >> > > >> > Yes! > >> > > >> > Disk... Loading...
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Geoff Worboys >> We know ? You know ? I'm - not. Show me the real DBMS >> which support such page size and test showing this fat... Loading...
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Ann W. Harrison Geoff Worboys wrote: > > I've got to vote with Sean here. Unless there is a really good > reason to do otherwise,... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Re: Database page sizes WAS: Major changes in ODS 12 - > The restriction on page size (at least on page sizes above 64Kb) > is not entirely artificial. Actually, if... Loading...
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Ann W. Harrison Re: Database page sizes WAS: Major changes in ODS 12 - Leyne, Sean wrote: > >> The restriction on page size (at least on page sizes above 64Kb) >> is not entirely... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Re: Database page sizes WAS: Major changes in ODS - Ann W. Harrison wrote: > > The only internal pages that do need to reference the last byte > on page are PIPS. On... Loading...
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Ann W. Harrison Dmitry Yemanov wrote: > Ann W. Harrison wrote: >> The only internal pages that do need to reference the last byte >>... Loading...
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Geoff Worboys > The restriction on page size (at least on page sizes above > 64Kb) is not entirely artificial. Lifting it could... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 Re: Database page sizes WAS: Major changes in ODS12 - >> The restriction on page size (at least on page sizes above >> 64Kb) is not entirely artificial. Lifting it could... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 Re: Database page sizes WAS: Major changes in ODS12 - >>> We know ? You know ? I'm - not. Show me the real DBMS >>> which support such page size and test showing this... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean > You just said : do it just to make us ability to play with it. > Nor you, nor Sean give any valid reason to... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 >> You just said : do it just to make us ability to play with it. >> Nor you, nor Sean give any valid reason to do... Loading...
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Adriano dos Santos Fernandes-3 Everybody on this list is (or should be) able to provide simple tests demonstrating why they feature request worth.... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Re: Database page sizes WAS: Major changes in ODS12 - > Everybody on this list is (or should be) able to provide simple tests > demonstrating why they feature request... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 > Vlad, > >> >> >> Do you believe in faster performance using bigger pages? >> >> > >> >> > Yes! >> >> > >> >> >... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Re: Database page sizes WAS: Major changes in ODS 12 - Vlad, > > System cluster size or Stripe size, they are different words for > essentially the same thing. > > ... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 Re: Database page sizes WAS: Major changes inODS 12 - > Vlad, > >> > System cluster size or Stripe size, they are different words for >> essentially the same thing. >>... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean > > They are disk block size! They are the size of the data which will be > read/written to disk on 1... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 >> > They are disk block size! They are the size of the data which will be >> read/written to disk on 1 operation. >>... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Tuesday 27 October 2009 11:30:37 Vlad Khorsun wrote: > >> > They are disk block size! They are the size of the data... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 > On Tuesday 27 October 2009 11:30:37 Vlad Khorsun wrote: >> >> > They are disk block size! They are the size of the... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Tuesday 27 October 2009 13:17:05 Vlad Khorsun wrote: > > Well, when you perform massive insert that allocation... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 >> >> NTFS cluster of 64KB is the worst thing you can do for database. >> > >> > If it can't support 64Kb blocks -... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Tuesday 27 October 2009 15:13:04 Vlad Khorsun wrote: > So, why most DB vendors are not supported large blocks... Loading...
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Doychin Bondzhev Re: Database page sizes WAS: Major changes inODS 12 - I can only add that bigger page size will probably help a lot when database is stored on raw... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Vlad, > Show me the real DBMS which support such page size - PostgreSQL v8.4 supports page sizes between 1KB and... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 > Vlad, > >> Show me the real DBMS which support such page size > > - PostgreSQL v8.4 supports page sizes between... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Vlad, > I think extents (implemented properly) will satisfy much better all > possible usage cases : > not... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 > Vlad, > >> I think extents (implemented properly) will satisfy much better all >> possible usage cases : >>... Loading...
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Ann W. Harrison Vlad Khorsun wrote: >> >> If optimizing cache is a goal, shouldn't the cache be changed from a page cache to a row... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Tuesday 27 October 2009 11:44:06 Vlad Khorsun wrote: > > Vlad, > > > >> I think extents (implemented properly)... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Alex, > What should be done in new ODS - measure page size in KB, and support 32K > pages. May be 64K too, but this... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Vlad, > I think extents (implemented properly) will satisfy much better all > possible usage cases : Please... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 > Vlad, > >> I think extents (implemented properly) will satisfy much better all >> possible usage cases : >... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean > >> I think extents (implemented properly) will satisfy much better all > >> possible usage cases : > > > >... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 >> >> I think extents (implemented properly) will satisfy much better all >> >> possible usage cases : >> > >> >... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Vlad, > >> Show me the real DBMS which support such page size > > > > - PostgreSQL v8.4 supports page sizes between... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 > Vlad, > >> >> Show me the real DBMS which support such page size >> > >> > - PostgreSQL v8.4 supports page sizes... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean > > I have been taking about increasing the limit to 32 or 64KB > > Really ? I saw another number - 256KB... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Leyne, Sean wrote: > > Yes, true. As I see it, once you support 64KB, you can support much larger page sizes for... Loading...
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Adriano dos Santos Fernandes-3 Vlad Khorsun escreveu: > We know ? You know ? I'm - not. Show me the real DBMS which support such page size > and... Loading...
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Dimitry Sibiryakov-3 > Dimitry Sibiryakov wrote: > >>> Consider better alternative (instead of SQZ) for record compression. >>> ... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 > Wlad Horsun wrote: >>>> >> Add "Min transaction number" field to header to allow to drop old >>>> >> TIPs >> >>... Loading...
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Dimitry Sibiryakov-3 >> May be you are right. Tell me then: TI pages which holds states of >> transactions with numbers less than OST are... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 >>> May be you are right. Tell me then: TI pages which holds states of >>> transactions with numbers less than OST... Loading...
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Dimitry Sibiryakov-3 >> AFACS TIPs are in linked list. So, to find out state of transaction >> X, one must scan whole list from the... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 >>> AFACS TIPs are in linked list. So, to find out state of transaction >>> X, one must scan whole list from the... Loading...
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Dimitry Sibiryakov-3 >>>> AFACS TIPs are in linked list. So, to find out state of transaction >>>> X, one must scan whole list from the... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 > This improvement (as well as release of old TIPs) requires ODS change > (address of first/last TIP in header) what... Loading...
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Dimitry Sibiryakov-3 >> This improvement (as well as release of old TIPs) requires ODS change >> (address of first/last TIP in header)... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Vlad Khorsun wrote: > > Yes, it is relatively easy to free these pages when OST advances. And make > some related... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Dimitry Sibiryakov wrote: > >> Do you believe in faster performance using bigger pages? > > Up to 65k - yes. Such... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 >> Add "Min transaction number" field to header to allow to drop old >> TIPs It is exists and called OST >>... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Monday 26 October 2009 12:22:57 Dimitry Sibiryakov wrote: > > Consider better alternative (instead of SQZ) for... Loading...
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Rustam Gadjimuradov Dmitry Yemanov> > * deprecate page buffers and sweep interval > (in favor of the per-database values... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Rustam Gadjimuradov wrote: > > One conf-file for all databases (i.e. current firebird.conf) > or per-database.conf... Loading...
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Rustam Gadjimuradov Dmitry Yemanov > You may have a common firebird.conf with defaults as well as a special > section inside... Loading...
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Mark Rotteveel > But I partially agree with Mark. What about saving both solutions - > db-header options and options in conf-file -... Loading...
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Rustam Gadjimuradov Mark Rotteveel> I'd say: choose one method of storing per database settings and stick with it. In view of that... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean > Mark Rotteveel> I'd say: choose one method of storing per database > settings and stick with it. > > In view... Loading...
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Stefan Heymann-2 > "So, if I move my database to another server/folder, I will need to > move the separate conf file as well!" > Nuts... Loading...
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Pavel Cisar Stefan Heymann napsal(a): > > We already have settings like Sweep Interval, SQL Dialect, and Buffer > Pages in the... Loading...
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Stefan Heymann-2 >> We already have settings like Sweep Interval, SQL Dialect, and Buffer >> Pages in the database. Why introduce a new... Loading...
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Roman Rokytskyy-2 >> The point was to move these values (except SQL Dialect which actually >> isn't a configuration option) out from... Loading...
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Jiri Cincura On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 12:51, Roman Rokytskyy <roman@...> wrote: > I am not sure. Forced writes can be safe... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Wednesday 28 October 2009 15:16:30 Jiri Cincura wrote: > On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 12:51, Roman Rokytskyy... Loading...
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Pavel Cisar Alexander Peshkoff napsal(a): > > > I do not understand why we so much wish to choose - store in configuration >... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Wednesday 28 October 2009 16:21:10 Pavel Cisar wrote: > Alexander Peshkoff napsal(a): > > I do not understand why... Loading...
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Roman Rokytskyy-2 Alex, >> may offer!), >> resource consumption constraints, logging and auditing etc. We need new >> general... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Roman Rokytskyy wrote: > > Did you think about having a system table RDB$DB_PARAMS, where all the > configuration... Loading...
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Rustam Gadjimuradov Dmitry Yemanov > I'd rather prefer to have a blob RDB$CONFIGURATION inside RDB$DATABASE > and treat its contents like... Loading...
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Calin Pirtea(RDS) I can see the sense in moving these settings out of the DB and have no more arguments against it. I'm already... Loading...
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Roman-80 Maybe not header? Maybe a table in system catalog? It's easy to configure, authorized access and one place. It's... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Wednesday 28 October 2009 16:56:44 Roman Simakov wrote: > Maybe not header? Maybe a table in system catalog? It's... Loading...
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Roman-80 Alexander Peshkoff wrote: > On Wednesday 28 October 2009 16:56:44 Roman Simakov wrote: >> Maybe not header? Maybe a... Loading...
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Umberto Masotti-2 Roman Simakov ha scritto: > Alexander Peshkoff wrote: > >> On Wednesday 28 October 2009 16:56:44 Roman Simakov... Loading...
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Rustam Gadjimuradov Umberto Masotti> I'm just wondering what RDB$DATABASE is for? Only to have one record table? ;) Except already... Loading...
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Martijn Tonies Dmitry, Don't forget a RDB$FUNCTION_SOURCE in RDB$FUNCTIONS ;-) With regards, Martijn Tonies Upscene... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Martijn Tonies wrote: > > Don't forget a RDB$FUNCTION_SOURCE in RDB$FUNCTIONS ;-) It's already there... Loading...
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Martijn Tonies >> Don't forget a RDB$FUNCTION_SOURCE in RDB$FUNCTIONS ;-) > > It's already there ;-) Alright, I missed it in a... Loading...
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Ann W. Harrison Umberto Masotti wrote: > > I'm just wondering what RDB$DATABASE is for? Only to have one record > table? ;) It... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Roman Simakov wrote: > > I guess it's sql dialect first of all. But maybe the full list is not so > big and the rest... Loading...
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Roman Rokytskyy-2 > On Wednesday 28 October 2009 16:56:44 Roman Simakov wrote: >> Maybe not header? Maybe a table in system catalog? It's... Loading...
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Ann W. Harrison Roman Simakov wrote: > Maybe not header? Maybe a table in system catalog? It's easy to > configure, authorized access... Loading...
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Roman Rokytskyy-2 > I do not understand why we so much wish to choose - store in configuration > file or store in database header. Why... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Wednesday 28 October 2009 16:09:45 Roman Rokytskyy wrote: > > I do not understand why we so much wish to choose -... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Alexander Peshkoff wrote: > > Currently database header has higher priority than config file. Without >... Loading...
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Roman Rokytskyy-2 > On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 12:51, Roman Rokytskyy <roman@...> wrote: >> I am not sure. Forced writes can be... Loading...
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Pavel Cisar Stefan Heymann napsal(a): > >> The point was to move these values (except SQL Dialect which actually >> isn't a... Loading...
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Jiri Cincura On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 11:45, Pavel Cisar <pcisar@...> wrote: > Configuration isn't actually what should be... Loading...
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Pavel Cisar Leyne, Sean napsal(a): > >> Mark Rotteveel> I'd say: choose one method of storing per database >> settings and... Loading...
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Alexandre Benson Smith Pavel Cisar wrote: > Personally, I would vote for 2) any sober day. However, I'd see two > things in it's initial... Loading...
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Pavel Cisar Alexandre Benson Smith napsal(a): > Pavel Cisar wrote: >> Personally, I would vote for 2) any sober day. However, I'd... Loading...
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Alexandre Benson Smith Hi ! Pavel Cisar wrote: > Alexandre Benson Smith napsal(a): > >> Pavel Cisar wrote: >> >>> Personally, I... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Tuesday 27 October 2009 10:31:19 Pavel Cisar wrote: > Alexandre Benson Smith napsal(a): > > Pavel Cisar wrote: >... Loading...
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Mark Rotteveel > That's very bad idea as it complicates database relocations, and it's > definitely not error prone. From my field... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Mark, > Yes, but that is also partly because the logging done by Firebird isn't > really useful. I think that is... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Pavel Cisar wrote: > > Also if there would be a requirement that > config file must be of the same name as database,... Loading...
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Pavel Cisar Dmitry Yemanov napsal(a): > Pavel Cisar wrote: >> Also if there would be a requirement that >> config file must be of... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Database config: WAS: RFC: Major changes in ODS 12 - Pavel, > Yeah, let's the flamewar begin :-) I've got my flame-proof suit ready! ;-] > 1) Configuration right... Loading...
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Pavel Cisar Leyne, Sean napsal(a): >> 1) Configuration right in database > >> Cons: > ... >> - Risk of Blast-from-the-past... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Monday 26 October 2009 22:48:01 Pavel Cisar wrote: > Forced writes is mostly harmless, Not agreed. Have you ever... Loading...
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Mark Rotteveel Pavel Cisar wrote: > Yeah, let's the flamewar begin :-) Seriously, both approaches how to > store the database... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Leyne, Sean wrote: > > "So, if I move my database to another server/folder, I will need to move the separate conf... Loading...
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Leyne, Sean Database/Server config WAS: Major changes in ODS 12 - > > "So, if I move my database to another server/folder, I will need to move > the separate conf file as well!" >... Loading...
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Mark Rotteveel Dmitry Yemanov wrote: > Leyne, Sean wrote: >> "So, if I move my database to another server/folder, I will need to move... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Rustam Gadjimuradov wrote: > > But why already existed options must be cleaned > from db-header is not so obvious... Loading...
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Rustam Gadjimuradov Dmitry Yemanov > I won't be insisting. I just think their presence makes configuration > even more confusing than... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Rustam Gadjimuradov wrote: > > Seems, It would be helpfull, if you (or anybody) enumerate > the config options, that... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Monday 26 October 2009 19:27:19 Dmitry Yemanov wrote: > Rustam Gadjimuradov wrote: > > Seems, It would be helpfull,... Loading...
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Rustam Gadjimuradov Alexander Peshkoff > Not sure. For some options (like ExternalFileAccess) I prefer to let > per-database... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Monday 26 October 2009 19:39:04 Rustam Gadjimuradov wrote: > Alexander Peshkoff > > > Not sure. For some options... Loading...
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Rustam Gadjimuradov Dmitry Yemanov > Everything you can find in firebird.conf, excluding (or better say > ignoring) those making sense... Loading...
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m. Th. Dmitry Yemanov wrote: > All, > > Below is the initial proposal (to be corrected/extended by others) that >... Loading...
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Dimitry Sibiryakov-3 > Just wondering: > It is possible to enhance the Index engine to allow backwards scanning ? No. Unless you can... Loading...
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Mark Rotteveel > * deprecate page buffers and sweep interval > (in favor of the per-database values defined in... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Mark Rotteveel wrote: > > What is the rationale behind this proposal? Avoiding both semantical and management... Loading...
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Jiri Cincura On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 13:42, Dmitry Yemanov <firebird2@...> wrote: >> If these options are moved to a separate... Loading...
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Mark Rotteveel > Mark Rotteveel wrote: > > > > What is the rationale behind this proposal? > > Avoiding both semantical and... Loading...
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Miha Vrhovnik "Mark Rotteveel" <avalanche1979@...> wrote on 26.10.2009 14:32:15: >> Mark Rotteveel wrote: >> > >> > What is... Loading...
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Milan Babuskov-4 Mark Rotteveel wrote: >> * deprecate page buffers and sweep interval >> (in favor of the per-database... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Monday 26 October 2009 18:38:54 Milan Babuskov wrote: > Mark Rotteveel wrote: > >> * deprecate page buffers... Loading...
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Calin Pirtea(RDS) I agree with Mark. Instead of moving valuable settings out of the DB I would lean towards moving more of them... Loading...
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Ann W. Harrison Dmitry Yemanov wrote: > > Consider better alternative (instead of SQZ) for record compression. > Tests are... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Ann W. Harrison wrote: > > Netfrastructure uses "record encoding" rather than compression. > [skip] It is one of... Loading...
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Ann W. Harrison Dmitry > > It requires at least twice larger storage for non-ASCII strings, thus > conflicting with the current... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Monday 26 October 2009 11:52:16 Dmitry Yemanov wrote: > * rework implementation ID to simplify the porting > ... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 >> New page type (bitmap?) to link SCNs to page numbers. >> This may noticeable improve the incremental NBackup... Loading...
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Ann W. Harrison Vlad Khorsun wrote: > >>> Switch from SLONG to ULONG for transaction numbers and page numbers. >> May be it's... Loading...
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Alex Peshkov-2 On Monday 26 October 2009 15:13:09 Vlad Khorsun wrote: > >> New page type (bitmap?) to link SCNs to page numbers. >... Loading...
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Vlad Khorsun-2 >> >> New page type (bitmap?) to link SCNs to page numbers. >> >> This may noticeable improve the incremental... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Alexander Peshkoff wrote: > > I've planned to use CPU/OS/compiler schema instead of current CLASSes + >... Loading...
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Claudio Valderrama C. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dmitry Yemanov [mailto:firebird2@...] > Sent: Lunes, 26 de Octubre de 2009... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Claudio Valderrama C. wrote: > >> * deprecate page buffers and sweep interval >> (in favor of the... Loading...
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Dimitry Sibiryakov-3 > Additions are welcome Forgot to add: change record size from USHORT to ULONG to remove 64k limit for record... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Dimitry Sibiryakov wrote: > > Forgot to add: change record size from USHORT to ULONG to remove 64k > limit for... Loading...
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Roman Rokytskyy-2 > Additions are welcome, as well as questions/comments re. the > aforementioned items. Regarding the schema... Loading...
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Dmitry Yemanov Roman Rokytskyy wrote: > > Regarding the schema support. If the ODS change is needed here, please > consider this... Loading...
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