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Rank

by RON70 :: Rate this Message:

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Hi, i have a small matrix related question which most of you find trivial however I am not getting through. Suppose I have a matrix of dimension (nxm), n < m. Is it in principle possible to have the rank of that matrix greater than n? Is it possible to have some example?

Thanks,

Re: [R-sig-finance] Rank

by Enrico Schumann :: Rate this Message:

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that's not a finance question, but the rank can at most be the min of n and
m.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: r-sig-finance-bounces@...
[mailto:r-sig-finance-bounces@...] Im Auftrag von RON70
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2009 03:22
An: r-sig-finance@...
Betreff: [R-SIG-Finance] [R-sig-finance] Rank


Hi, i have a small matrix related question which most of you find trivial
however I am not getting through. Suppose I have a matrix of dimension
(nxm), n < m. Is it in principle possible to have the rank of that matrix
greater than n? Is it possible to have some example?

Thanks,
--
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http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24316324.html
Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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18:06:00

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Re: [R-sig-finance] Rank

by RON70 :: Rate this Message:

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This is a finance related question in the sense that I have come accross this kind of problem in Co-Integration matrix construction in a VECM. I am explaing how :

Suppose I have 2 endogeneous variables and 3 exogeneous variable all are I(1) and assumed to have cointegration relationships among them. Let say the DGP is

y[t] = alpha * t(beta) * (y[t-1] : x[t-1]) + ..................

pi = alpha * t(beta)

Obviously dimension of y vector is 2 and x vector is 3. Therefore there could be more than 2 cointegrating relationships in that. Hence rank of pi is in principle more than 2. As number of co-integrating relationships is estimated on looking at rank of pi matrix. However number of rows there is : 2. I am trying to understand this scenario here. In this case, can usual VECM estimation procedure work? More important to me is to understand rank of pi is more than it's row number.

Thanks




Enrico Schumann wrote:
that's not a finance question, but the rank can at most be the min of n and
m.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: r-sig-finance-bounces@stat.math.ethz.ch
[mailto:r-sig-finance-bounces@stat.math.ethz.ch] Im Auftrag von RON70
Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2009 03:22
An: r-sig-finance@stat.math.ethz.ch
Betreff: [R-SIG-Finance] [R-sig-finance] Rank


Hi, i have a small matrix related question which most of you find trivial
however I am not getting through. Suppose I have a matrix of dimension
(nxm), n < m. Is it in principle possible to have the rank of that matrix
greater than n? Is it possible to have some example?

Thanks,
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24316324.html
Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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18:06:00

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Re: [R-sig-finance] Rank

by matifou :: Rate this Message:

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2009/7/3 RON70 <ron_michael70@...>

>
> This is a finance related question in the sense that I have come accross
> this
> kind of problem in Co-Integration matrix construction in a VECM. I am
> explaing how :
>
> Suppose I have 2 endogeneous variables and 3 exogeneous variable all are
> I(1) and assumed to have cointegration relationships among them. Let say
> the
> DGP is
>
what do you mean by exogenous?


>
> y[t] = alpha * t(beta) * (y[t-1] : x[t-1]) + ..................

left should be differenced

>
>
> pi = alpha * t(beta)
>
> Obviously dimension of y vector is 2 and x vector is 3. Therefore there
> could be more than 2 cointegrating relationships in that.

if you have more than two cointegrating relationships: I would say x is not
exogeneous

Hence rank of pi
> is in principle more than 2. As number of co-integrating relationships is
> estimated on looking at rank of pi matrix. However number of rows there is
> :
> 2.
>
I am trying to understand this scenario here. In this case, can usual

> VECM estimation procedure work? More important to me is to understand rank
> of pi is more than it's row number.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
> Enrico Schumann wrote:
> >
> > that's not a finance question, but the rank can at most be the min of n
> > and
> > m.
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: r-sig-finance-bounces@...
> > [mailto:r-sig-finance-bounces@...] Im Auftrag von RON70
> > Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2009 03:22
> > An: r-sig-finance@...
> > Betreff: [R-SIG-Finance] [R-sig-finance] Rank
> >
> >
> > Hi, i have a small matrix related question which most of you find trivial
> > however I am not getting through. Suppose I have a matrix of dimension
> > (nxm), n < m. Is it in principle possible to have the rank of that matrix
> > greater than n? Is it possible to have some example?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24316324.html
> > Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
> > -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >
> >
> > 18:06:00
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
> > -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24319081.html
> Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
> -- Subscriber-posting only.
> -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>
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Re: [R-sig-finance] Rank

by RON70 :: Rate this Message:

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I am not sure why you are saying c.i. relationships can not be more than n. Quote from Lutkepohl, page : 408 : "Because the error correction term now involves all the cointegration relations between the endogenous and unmodelled variables,it is possible that r>K. ", here he defined K as number of endo. variables in the system................any idea?

However your 1st point is valid, I should have added diff. operator on the left side, it was a typo.

PS. I understand some ppl here previously suggested not to read Lutkepohl 1st, however except few things I am getting comfortable-reading on that, atleast easier than Hamilton, perhaps I have only softcopy of Hamilton ;).

matifou wrote:
2009/7/3 RON70 <ron_michael70@yahoo.com>

>
> This is a finance related question in the sense that I have come accross
> this
> kind of problem in Co-Integration matrix construction in a VECM. I am
> explaing how :
>
> Suppose I have 2 endogeneous variables and 3 exogeneous variable all are
> I(1) and assumed to have cointegration relationships among them. Let say
> the
> DGP is
>
what do you mean by exogenous?


>
> y[t] = alpha * t(beta) * (y[t-1] : x[t-1]) + ..................

left should be differenced

>
>
> pi = alpha * t(beta)
>
> Obviously dimension of y vector is 2 and x vector is 3. Therefore there
> could be more than 2 cointegrating relationships in that.

if you have more than two cointegrating relationships: I would say x is not
exogeneous

Hence rank of pi
> is in principle more than 2. As number of co-integrating relationships is
> estimated on looking at rank of pi matrix. However number of rows there is
> :
> 2.
>
I am trying to understand this scenario here. In this case, can usual
> VECM estimation procedure work? More important to me is to understand rank
> of pi is more than it's row number.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
> Enrico Schumann wrote:
> >
> > that's not a finance question, but the rank can at most be the min of n
> > and
> > m.
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: r-sig-finance-bounces@stat.math.ethz.ch
> > [mailto:r-sig-finance-bounces@stat.math.ethz.ch] Im Auftrag von RON70
> > Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2009 03:22
> > An: r-sig-finance@stat.math.ethz.ch
> > Betreff: [R-SIG-Finance] [R-sig-finance] Rank
> >
> >
> > Hi, i have a small matrix related question which most of you find trivial
> > however I am not getting through. Suppose I have a matrix of dimension
> > (nxm), n < m. Is it in principle possible to have the rank of that matrix
> > greater than n? Is it possible to have some example?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24316324.html
> > Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > R-SIG-Finance@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list
> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
> > -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >
> >
> > 18:06:00
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > R-SIG-Finance@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list
> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
> > -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24319081.html
> Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> R-SIG-Finance@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
> -- Subscriber-posting only.
> -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>

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Re: [R-sig-finance] Rank

by John C. Frain :: Rate this Message:

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Your pi matrix is 2 by 5 and therefore must be of rank <= 2 and you
can not have more than two cointegrating relationships betwween the
y's.   Page 408 of my copy of Lutkepohl(2005) deals with Multiplier
analysis and Optimal Control

Best Regards

John

2009/7/3 RON70 <ron_michael70@...>:

>
> I am not sure why you are saying c.i. relationships can not be more than n.
> Quote from Lutkepohl, page : 408 : "Because the error correction term now
> involves all the cointegration relations between the endogenous and
> unmodelled variables,it is possible that r>K. ", here he defined K as number
> of endo. variables in the system................any idea?
>
> However your 1st point is valid, I should have added diff. operator on the
> left side, it was a typo.
>
> PS. I understand some ppl here previously suggested not to read Lutkepohl
> 1st, however except few things I am getting comfortable-reading on that,
> atleast easier than Hamilton, perhaps I have only softcopy of Hamilton ;).
>
>
> matifou wrote:
>>
>> 2009/7/3 RON70 <ron_michael70@...>
>>
>>>
>>> This is a finance related question in the sense that I have come accross
>>> this
>>> kind of problem in Co-Integration matrix construction in a VECM. I am
>>> explaing how :
>>>
>>> Suppose I have 2 endogeneous variables and 3 exogeneous variable all are
>>> I(1) and assumed to have cointegration relationships among them. Let say
>>> the
>>> DGP is
>>>
>> what do you mean by exogenous?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> y[t] = alpha * t(beta) * (y[t-1] : x[t-1]) + ..................
>>
>> left should be differenced
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> pi = alpha * t(beta)
>>>
>>> Obviously dimension of y vector is 2 and x vector is 3. Therefore there
>>> could be more than 2 cointegrating relationships in that.
>>
>> if you have more than two cointegrating relationships: I would say x is
>> not
>> exogeneous
>>
>> Hence rank of pi
>>> is in principle more than 2. As number of co-integrating relationships is
>>> estimated on looking at rank of pi matrix. However number of rows there
>>> is
>>> :
>>> 2.
>>>
>> I am trying to understand this scenario here. In this case, can usual
>>> VECM estimation procedure work? More important to me is to understand
>>> rank
>>> of pi is more than it's row number.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Enrico Schumann wrote:
>>> >
>>> > that's not a finance question, but the rank can at most be the min of n
>>> > and
>>> > m.
>>> >
>>> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> > Von: r-sig-finance-bounces@...
>>> > [mailto:r-sig-finance-bounces@...] Im Auftrag von RON70
>>> > Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2009 03:22
>>> > An: r-sig-finance@...
>>> > Betreff: [R-SIG-Finance] [R-sig-finance] Rank
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi, i have a small matrix related question which most of you find
>>> trivial
>>> > however I am not getting through. Suppose I have a matrix of dimension
>>> > (nxm), n < m. Is it in principle possible to have the rank of that
>>> matrix
>>> > greater than n? Is it possible to have some example?
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > --
>>> > View this message in context:
>>> > http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24316324.html
>>> > Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
>>> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>>> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
>>> > -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 18:06:00
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
>>> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>>> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
>>> > -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24319081.html
>>> Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>>> -- Subscriber-posting only.
>>> -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>>
>>
>>       [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>> -- Subscriber-posting only.
>> -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24321300.html
> Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
> -- Subscriber-posting only.
> -- If you want to post, subscribe first.



--
John C Frain, Ph.D.
Trinity College Dublin
Dublin 2
Ireland
www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/frainj/home.htm
mailto:frainj@...
mailto:frainj@...

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Re: [R-sig-finance] Rank

by RON70 :: Rate this Message:

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Oh John, it is page 399, sorry.


John C. Frain wrote:
Your pi matrix is 2 by 5 and therefore must be of rank <= 2 and you
can not have more than two cointegrating relationships betwween the
y's.   Page 408 of my copy of Lutkepohl(2005) deals with Multiplier
analysis and Optimal Control

Best Regards

John

2009/7/3 RON70 <ron_michael70@yahoo.com>:
>
> I am not sure why you are saying c.i. relationships can not be more than n.
> Quote from Lutkepohl, page : 408 : "Because the error correction term now
> involves all the cointegration relations between the endogenous and
> unmodelled variables,it is possible that r>K. ", here he defined K as number
> of endo. variables in the system................any idea?
>
> However your 1st point is valid, I should have added diff. operator on the
> left side, it was a typo.
>
> PS. I understand some ppl here previously suggested not to read Lutkepohl
> 1st, however except few things I am getting comfortable-reading on that,
> atleast easier than Hamilton, perhaps I have only softcopy of Hamilton ;).
>
>
> matifou wrote:
>>
>> 2009/7/3 RON70 <ron_michael70@yahoo.com>
>>
>>>
>>> This is a finance related question in the sense that I have come accross
>>> this
>>> kind of problem in Co-Integration matrix construction in a VECM. I am
>>> explaing how :
>>>
>>> Suppose I have 2 endogeneous variables and 3 exogeneous variable all are
>>> I(1) and assumed to have cointegration relationships among them. Let say
>>> the
>>> DGP is
>>>
>> what do you mean by exogenous?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> y[t] = alpha * t(beta) * (y[t-1] : x[t-1]) + ..................
>>
>> left should be differenced
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> pi = alpha * t(beta)
>>>
>>> Obviously dimension of y vector is 2 and x vector is 3. Therefore there
>>> could be more than 2 cointegrating relationships in that.
>>
>> if you have more than two cointegrating relationships: I would say x is
>> not
>> exogeneous
>>
>> Hence rank of pi
>>> is in principle more than 2. As number of co-integrating relationships is
>>> estimated on looking at rank of pi matrix. However number of rows there
>>> is
>>> :
>>> 2.
>>>
>> I am trying to understand this scenario here. In this case, can usual
>>> VECM estimation procedure work? More important to me is to understand
>>> rank
>>> of pi is more than it's row number.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Enrico Schumann wrote:
>>> >
>>> > that's not a finance question, but the rank can at most be the min of n
>>> > and
>>> > m.
>>> >
>>> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> > Von: r-sig-finance-bounces@stat.math.ethz.ch
>>> > [mailto:r-sig-finance-bounces@stat.math.ethz.ch] Im Auftrag von RON70
>>> > Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2009 03:22
>>> > An: r-sig-finance@stat.math.ethz.ch
>>> > Betreff: [R-SIG-Finance] [R-sig-finance] Rank
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi, i have a small matrix related question which most of you find
>>> trivial
>>> > however I am not getting through. Suppose I have a matrix of dimension
>>> > (nxm), n < m. Is it in principle possible to have the rank of that
>>> matrix
>>> > greater than n? Is it possible to have some example?
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > --
>>> > View this message in context:
>>> > http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24316324.html
>>> > Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > R-SIG-Finance@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list
>>> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>>> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
>>> > -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 18:06:00
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > R-SIG-Finance@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list
>>> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>>> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
>>> > -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24319081.html
>>> Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> R-SIG-Finance@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list
>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>>> -- Subscriber-posting only.
>>> -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>>
>>
>>       [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> R-SIG-Finance@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>> -- Subscriber-posting only.
>> -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24321300.html
> Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> R-SIG-Finance@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
> -- Subscriber-posting only.
> -- If you want to post, subscribe first.



--
John C Frain, Ph.D.
Trinity College Dublin
Dublin 2
Ireland
www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/frainj/home.htm
mailto:frainj@tcd.ie
mailto:frainj@gmail.com

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Re: [R-sig-finance] Rank

by ezivot :: Rate this Message:

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I suggest that you look at Johansen's book on cointegration

http://www.amazon.com/Likelihood-Based-Inference-Cointegrated-Autoregressive-Econometrics/dp/0198774508/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246640896&sr=8-1

His treatment is the most complete and will answer all of your questions.
A nice empirical/practical follow up to this book is the recent one by K. Jusalius (his wife)

http://www.amazon.com/Cointegrated-VAR-Model-Applications-Econometrics/dp/0199285675/ref=pd_sim_b_2

The issue here is because the Pi matrix has rank 2 there are only two cointegrating relationships among the Y's of the form beta1'(Y1, Y2, X1, X2, X3) and beta2'(Y1, Y2, X1, X2, X3) where the coefficients on the X's are not all zero.

The X variables are unmodeled - which in the cointegration literature means that they are weakly exogenous wrt to the cointegration parameters in the VECM. If there is now feedback from the Ys to the Xs then the reduced form relationship for DX(t) does not involve Y and the Xs are then strongly exogenous. In particular, the error correction coefficients on these variables (alphas) are zero so that the system has the form like


DY1(t) = a1*beta1'(Y1, Y2, X1, X2, X3) + lags of DY(t) and DX(t) + e1(t)
DY2(t) = a2*beta2'(Y1, Y2, X1, X2, X3) + lags of DY(t) and DX(t) + e1(t)
DX(t) = lags of DX(t) + e3(t)

Notice in this type of representation there is no cointegration among the Xs because the reduced form for the Xs is not a VECM.
Now because the X's are unmodeled, there is the possibility that there are cointegration relationships among the X's that do not involve the Ys. I think this is causing the confusion. In general, it is assumed that such relationships do not exist when the VECM is specified with unmodeled variables.

None of this discussion has to do with finance



On Fri, 3 Jul 2009, RON70 wrote:

>
Oh John, it is page 399, sorry.



John C. Frain wrote:

>
> Your pi matrix is 2 by 5 and therefore must be of rank <= 2 and you
> can not have more than two cointegrating relationships betwween the
> y's.   Page 408 of my copy of Lutkepohl(2005) deals with Multiplier
> analysis and Optimal Control
>
> Best Regards
>
> John
>
> 2009/7/3 RON70 <ron_michael70@...>:
>>
>> I am not sure why you are saying c.i. relationships can not be more than
>> n.
>> Quote from Lutkepohl, page : 408 : "Because the error correction term now
>> involves all the cointegration relations between the endogenous and
>> unmodelled variables,it is possible that r>K. ", here he defined K as
>> number
>> of endo. variables in the system................any idea?
>>
>> However your 1st point is valid, I should have added diff. operator on
>> the
>> left side, it was a typo.
>>
>> PS. I understand some ppl here previously suggested not to read Lutkepohl
>> 1st, however except few things I am getting comfortable-reading on that,
>> atleast easier than Hamilton, perhaps I have only softcopy of Hamilton
>> ;).
>>
>>
>> matifou wrote:
>>>
>>> 2009/7/3 RON70 <ron_michael70@...>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a finance related question in the sense that I have come
>>>> accross
>>>> this
>>>> kind of problem in Co-Integration matrix construction in a VECM. I am
>>>> explaing how :
>>>>
>>>> Suppose I have 2 endogeneous variables and 3 exogeneous variable all
>>>> are
>>>> I(1) and assumed to have cointegration relationships among them. Let
>>>> say
>>>> the
>>>> DGP is
>>>>
>>> what do you mean by exogenous?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> y[t] = alpha * t(beta) * (y[t-1] : x[t-1]) + ..................
>>>
>>> left should be differenced
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> pi = alpha * t(beta)
>>>>
>>>> Obviously dimension of y vector is 2 and x vector is 3. Therefore there
>>>> could be more than 2 cointegrating relationships in that.
>>>
>>> if you have more than two cointegrating relationships: I would say x is
>>> not
>>> exogeneous
>>>
>>> Hence rank of pi
>>>> is in principle more than 2. As number of co-integrating relationships
>>>> is
>>>> estimated on looking at rank of pi matrix. However number of rows there
>>>> is
>>>> :
>>>> 2.
>>>>
>>> I am trying to understand this scenario here. In this case, can usual
>>>> VECM estimation procedure work? More important to me is to understand
>>>> rank
>>>> of pi is more than it's row number.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Enrico Schumann wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > that's not a finance question, but the rank can at most be the min of
>>>> n
>>>> > and
>>>> > m.
>>>> >
>>>> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> > Von: r-sig-finance-bounces@...
>>>> > [mailto:r-sig-finance-bounces@...] Im Auftrag von RON70
>>>> > Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2009 03:22
>>>> > An: r-sig-finance@...
>>>> > Betreff: [R-SIG-Finance] [R-sig-finance] Rank
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi, i have a small matrix related question which most of you find
>>>> trivial
>>>> > however I am not getting through. Suppose I have a matrix of
>>>> dimension
>>>> > (nxm), n < m. Is it in principle possible to have the rank of that
>>>> matrix
>>>> > greater than n? Is it possible to have some example?
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks,
>>>> > --
>>>> > View this message in context:
>>>> > http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24316324.html
>>>> > Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
>>>> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>>>> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
>>>> > -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > 18:06:00
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
>>>> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>>>> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
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>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24319081.html
>>>> Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
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>>>>
>>>
>>>       [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24321300.html
>> Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> John C Frain, Ph.D.
> Trinity College Dublin
> Dublin 2
> Ireland
> www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/frainj/home.htm
> mailto:frainj@...
> mailto:frainj@...
>
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Re: [R-sig-finance] Rank

by John C. Frain :: Rate this Message:

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I agree with what is said below.  Even though the rank of pi is 2 it
can be factorised into a product of two matrices alpha which is 2 by 3
and a beta which is 3 by 5.  In macroeconometrics, in practice,  such
a scheme has been used to incorporate a disequilibrium in one sector
of a macro model (modelling the X,s) into another sector (modelling
the Y's).  We did necessarily even use the first differences of the
Y's inmodelling the X's.

I agree that this is probably a matter of time series macoeconometrics
rather than finance and I should probably leave it at that,

Best Regards

John

2009/7/3 Eric Zivot <ezivot@...>:

> I suggest that you look at Johansen's book on cointegration
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Likelihood-Based-Inference-Cointegrated-Autoregressive-Econometrics/dp/0198774508/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246640896&sr=8-1
>
> His treatment is the most complete and will answer all of your questions. A
> nice empirical/practical follow up to this book is the recent one by K.
> Jusalius (his wife)
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Cointegrated-VAR-Model-Applications-Econometrics/dp/0199285675/ref=pd_sim_b_ot nec2
>
> The issue here is because the Pi matrix has rank 2 there are only two
> cointegrating relationships among the Y's of the form beta1'(Y1, Y2, X1, X2,
> X3) and beta2'(Y1, Y2, X1, X 2, X3) where the coefficients on the X's are not
> all zero.
>
> The X variables are unmodeled - which in the cointegration literature means
> that they are weakly exogenous wrt to the cointegration parameters in the
> VECM. If there is now feedback from the Ys to the Xs then the reduced form
> relationship for DX(t) does not involve Y and the Xs are then strongly
> exogenous. In particular, the error correction coefficients on these
> variables (alphas) are zero so that the system has the form like
>
>
> DY1(t) = a1*beta1'(Y1, Y2, X1, X2, X3) + lags of DY(t) and DX(t) + e1(t)
> DY2(t) = a2*beta2'(Y1, Y2, X1, X2, X3) + lags of DY(t) and DX(t) + e1(t)
> DX(t) = lags of DX(t) + e3(t)
>
> Notice in this type of representation there is no cointegration among the Xs
> because the reduced form for the Xs is not a VECM. Now because the X's are
> unmodeled, there is the possibility that there are cointegration
> relationships among the X's that do not involve the Ys. I think this is
> causing the confusion. In general, it is assumed that such relationships do
> not exist when the VECM is specified with unmodeled variables.
>
> None of this discussion has to do with finance
>
>
>
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009, RON70 wrote:
>
>>
> Oh John, it is page 399, sorry.
>
>
>
> John C. Frain wrote:
>>
>> Your pi matrix is 2 by 5 and therefore must be of rank <= 2 and you
>> can not have more than two cointegrating relationships betwween the
>> y's.   Page 408 of my copy of Lutkepohl(2005) deals with Multiplier
>> analysis and Optimal Control
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>> John
>>
>> 2009/7/3 RON70 <ron_michael70@...>:
>>>
>>> I am not sure why you are saying c.i. relationships can not be more than
>>> n.
>>> Quote from Lutkepohl, page : 408 : "Because the error correction term now
>>> involves all the cointegration relations between the endogenous and
>>> unmodelled variables,it is possible that r>K. ", here he defined K as
>>> number
>>> of endo. variables in the system................any idea?
>>>
>>> However your 1st point is valid, I should have added diff. operator on
>>> the
>>> left side, it was a typo.
>>>
>>> PS. I understand some ppl here previously suggested not to read Lutkepohl
>>> 1st, however except few things I am getting comfortable-reading on that,
>>> atleast easier than Hamilton, perhaps I have only softcopy of Hamilton
>>> ;).
>>>
>>>
>>> matifou wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 2009/7/3 RON70 <ron_michael70@...>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a finance related question in the sense that I have come
>>>>> accross
>>>>> this
>>>>> kind of problem in Co-Integration matrix construction in a VECM. I am
>>>>> explaing how :
>>>>>
>>>>> Suppose I have 2 endogeneous variables and 3 exogeneous variable all
>>>>> are
>>>>> I(1) and assumed to have cointegration relationships among them. Let
>>>>> say
>>>>> the
>>>>> DGP is
>>>>>
>>>> what do you mean by exogenous?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> y[t] = alpha * t(beta) * (y[t-1] : x[t-1]) + ..................
>>>>
>>>> left should be differenced
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> pi = alpha * t(beta)
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously dimension of y vector is 2 and x vector is 3. Therefore there
>>>>> could be more than 2 cointegrating relationships in that.
>>>>
>>>> if you have more than two cointegrating relationships: I would say x is
>>>> not
>>>> exogeneous
>>>>
>>>> Hence rank of pi
>>>>>
>>>>> is in principle more than 2. As number of co-integrating relationships
>>>>> is
>>>>> estimated on looking at rank of pi matrix. However number of rows there
>>>>> is
>>>>> :
>>>>> 2.
>>>>>
>>>> I am trying to understand this scenario here. In this case, can usual
>>>>>
>>>>> VECM estimation procedure work? More important to me is to understand
>>>>> rank
>>>>> of pi is more than it's row number.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Enrico Schumann wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > that's not a finance question, but the rank can at most be the min of
>>>>> n
>>>>> > and
>>>>> > m.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>> > Von: r-sig-finance-bounces@...
>>>>> > [mailto:r-sig-finance-bounces@...] Im Auftrag von RON70
>>>>> > Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2009 03:22
>>>>> > An: r-sig-finance@...
>>>>> > Betreff: [R-SIG-Finance] [R-sig-finance] Rank
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Hi, i have a small matrix related question which most of you find
>>>>> trivial
>>>>> > however I am not getting through. Suppose I have a matrix of
>>>>> dimension
>>>>> > (nxm), n < m. Is it in principle possible to have the rank of that
>>>>> matrix
>>>>> > greater than n? Is it possible to have some example?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thanks,
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > View this message in context:
>>>>> > http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24316324.html
>>>>> > Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
>>>>> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>>>>> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
>>>>> > -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>>>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 18:06:00
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
>>>>> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>>>>> > -- Subscriber-posting only.
>>>>> > -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24319081.html
>>>>> Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
>>>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
>>>>> -- Subscriber-posting only.
>>>>> -- If you want to post, subscribe first.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Rank-tp24316324p24321300.html
>>> Sent from the Rmetrics mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-finance
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> John C Frain, Ph.D.
>> Trinity College Dublin
>> Dublin 2
>> Ireland
>> www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/frainj/home.htm
>> mailto:frainj@...
>> mailto:frainj@...
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> R-SIG-Finance@... mailing list
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>>
>
> --
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--
John C Frain, Ph.D.
Trinity College Dublin
Dublin 2
Ireland
www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/frainj/home.htm
mailto:frainj@...
mailto:frainj@...

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