tag:old.nabble.com,2006:forum-3051Nabble - Raster-Based2009-11-28T17:30:22Ztag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26558796Re: Windows 7 Question2009-11-28T17:30:22Z2009-11-28T17:30:22ZBill KendrickOn Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 07:31:17PM -0500, <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26558796&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">sdcharpentier@...</a> wrote:
<br>> I am running Windows 7 (64-bit) on my new laptop. Is there a Tux Paint
<br>> version that will run on this platform? My daughter loves the program and
<br>> I haven't told her about this possible onion in the oinment. Any help or
<br>> advice is appriciated.
<br><br>I just got a report today that it works with Windows 7, although the other
<br>day we ALSO received a note from another person using Win7 saying that it
<br>wasn't working right. Our best guess in that latter case is that the
<br>same font-finding stall that occurs on other versions of Windows was
<br>happening on that person's system, too.
<br><br>So, go ahead and try, and please report back! :) There's certainly
<br>nothing we've specifically done to try to KEEP it from running on Win7! :)
<br><br>--
<br>-bill!
<br>Sent from my computer
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<div><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am running Windows 7 (64-bit) on my new laptop. Is there a Tux Paint version that will run on this platform? My daughter loves the program and I haven't told her about this possible onion in the oinment. Any help or advice is appriciated.</FONT></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Scott</div>
</font>
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<br>Tuxpaint-users mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26558342&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">Tuxpaint-users@...</a>
<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxpaint-users" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxpaint-users</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/tuxpaint-users-f3685.html" embed="fixTarget[3685]" target="_top" >tuxpaint-users</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26551420usage of gettext2009-11-28T01:10:37Z2009-11-28T01:10:37ZAlbert CahalanIt turns out that setting a Zapotec locale is
<br>not possible. Seriously!
<br><br>It's possible to pick some non-C locale, then
<br>convince gettext that zam.mo is for that locale.
<br>I can thus do fr_FR.UTF-8 with Zapotec text.
<br><br>Simply put, gettext absolutely refuses to use
<br>a locale unless it has everything: date format,
<br>currency format, names of weekdays, format
<br>for a phone number, format for time, etc.
<br><br>This refusal means "C", "C" is not UTF-8, "C"
<br>ignores *.mo requests even if LC_MESSAGES
<br>matches an existing *.mo file, and "C" doesn't
<br>even have a working iswprint() or towupper().
<br>None of this is required by any standard.
<br><br>I strongly encourage making some noise about
<br>this. There are plenty of bug databases around,
<br>including one for every Linux distribution. You can
<br>also send convincing emails:
<br><br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26551420&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">bruno@...</a>
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26551420&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">drepper@...</a>
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26551420&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">bug-gnu-gettext@...</a>
<br><br>Meanwhile, I notice that we already do large parts
<br>of the localization ourselves. Handling the text too
<br>would free us from this broken-as-designed mess.
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<br>Tuxpaint-devel mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26551420&i=3" target="_top" rel="nofollow">Tuxpaint-devel@...</a>
<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxpaint-devel" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxpaint-devel</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/tuxpaint-devel-f3682.html" embed="fixTarget[3682]" target="_top" >tuxpaint-devel</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26538028Exciting New Use For Cinepaint2009-11-26T21:21:14Z2009-11-26T21:21:14ZFrank PetersCinepaint has, I believe, found an exciting new use.
<br><br>Recently, the ImageMagick set of image processing tools has incorporated
<br>the Fast Fourier Transformation (FFT). In contrast to other FFT tools,
<br>the ImageMagick implementation is highly accurate and can easily be used
<br>on RGB color images.
<br><br>FFT processing usually requires the creation of an image mask of some kind
<br>and this is where Cinepaint can be utilized. ImageMagick stores the result
<br>of the FFT transformation in 32-bit floating point images and these images
<br>can then readily be loaded into Cinepaint for mask creation.
<br><br>The link describing FFT is here:
<br><br><a href="http://www.fmwconcepts.com/imagemagick/fourier_transforms/fourier.html#noise_removal" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.fmwconcepts.com/imagemagick/fourier_transforms/fourier.html#noise_removal</a><br><br>Notice that the author mentions both GIMP and Photoshop as possible
<br>editors for mask creation, but neither of these, for various reasons, is,
<br>IMO, to be recommended. Cinepaint is the best choice due to its deep-bit
<br>capability and its Open Source nature.
<br><br>Basically, the brush tool in Cinepaint followed by threshholding and
<br>conversion to grayscale can be used to create quick masks for FFT
<br>processing with ImageMagick. The complete details are somewhat
<br>involved and all those interested should consult the above link
<br>as well as other sources.
<br><br>Already I have experienced excellent results removing halftone patterns
<br>from high resolution scanned images using Cinepaint with IM. But this
<br>is only one example of many possible applications.
<br><br>I encourage everyone to check out the exciting new avenue for image
<br>manipulation that is now afforded to the Open Source world via ImageMagick
<br>in conjunction with Cinepaint.
<br><br>Frank Peters
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<br>Cinepaint-users mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26538028&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">Cinepaint-users@...</a>
<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/cinepaint-users-f3976.html" embed="fixTarget[3976]" target="_top" >cinepaint-users</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26527605C, fr_FR, zam, and zapotec2009-11-26T02:50:42Z2009-11-26T02:50:42ZAlbert CahalanIt seems that an incomplete locale (not OS supported)
<br>causes some stuff to remain in the C locale, which in
<br>turn causes gettext to disable itself.
<br><br>I switched to calling ctype_utf8() then doing setlocale
<br>with just LC_MESSAGES, and was able to force zam
<br>(zapotec) as long as LC_ALL was fr_FR. (!!!) Setting
<br>LC_ALL to C or leaving it unset resulted in english.
<br>This is supposedly "en", but actually "C" AFAIK.
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<br>Tuxpaint-devel mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26527605&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">Tuxpaint-devel@...</a>
<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxpaint-devel" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxpaint-devel</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/tuxpaint-devel-f3682.html" embed="fixTarget[3682]" target="_top" >tuxpaint-devel</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26514350.deb package for Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty)2009-11-25T07:09:19Z2009-11-25T07:09:19ZClaus CyrnyHi all,
<br><br>after reading the last post on Ubuntu packages by Milan,
<br>I found a stable version for Lucid at
<br><br><a href="https://launchpad.net/~cinepaint/+archive/ppa" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://launchpad.net/~cinepaint/+archive/ppa</a><br><br>but the repositories are not available anymore (404). Are there
<br>any other .deb packages available for 9.04? Right now, I gave Krita
<br>a try, but it is a bit too slow on my machine, plus, I like the color
<br>adjustment in CinePaint much better.
<br><br>Thanks,
<br><br>Claus
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<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26514350&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">Cinepaint-users@...</a>
<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/cinepaint-users-f3976.html" embed="fixTarget[3976]" target="_top" >cinepaint-users</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26514200Re: Really basic script for batch converting.2009-11-25T07:02:55Z2009-11-25T07:02:55ZFrank PetersOn Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:39:31 -0000 (GMT)
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26514200&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">diffid@...</a> wrote:
<br><br>>
<br>> Ok, so is dithering only used for going from high bit depth to lower? Is
<br>> the noise I'm adding after conversion 'dithering' or just damaging the
<br>> image?
<br>>
<br><br>The noise you are adding is only decreasing the number of pixels of
<br>a certain value and spreading the difference by increasing the number
<br>of pixels that are close to the original value. For example, if you
<br>have 1000 pixels of values of value 32000, after adding noise you will
<br>have maybe 500 @32000 and 50 @32002, 50 @32004, 50 @31998, etc. The
<br>exact change depends on the type of noise that is added (gaussian,
<br>laplacian, poisson) and the parameters for each type.
<br><br>My view is that this will accomplish little for just a conversion
<br>to higher bits. If it helps out with subsequent processing I really
<br>cannot comment. But as you have seen it can degrade the original image.
<br><div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>>
<br>> I think this is what I'm driving at 'become more resistant to banding /
<br>> compress'. The intention with these video image frames is to do quite
<br>> strong colour correction/grading before encoding back to video codecs. It
<br>> seems to do what I'm aiming for (whether that is correct or not) I've been
<br>> able to do quite heavy handed HSL and curve adjustments and still have
<br>> solid smooth histogram at the end of it. But I still have to take this
<br>> through to the final sharpened encoded video files for final playback, I
<br>> may find the noise has caused problems.
<br>>
</div><br>I am not familiar with your source material, but in my own experience
<br>I have found that it may not be possible to completely automate the
<br>processing of a large series of images. I have tried to implement
<br>scripted processing but my results were never uniform or even predictable.
<br>I've always had to bite the bullet and process each image individually
<br>by hand. But maybe your sources are similar enough to allow automation.
<br><br>In any case, too many cooks spoil the broth, as the saying goes.
<br>I would suggest to just experiment and accept the best method.
<br><br>Frank Peters
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<br>Cinepaint-users mailing list
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<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/cinepaint-users-f3976.html" embed="fixTarget[3976]" target="_top" >cinepaint-users</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26514123Re: Really basic script for batch converting.2009-11-25T06:59:22Z2009-11-25T06:59:22ZBob FriesenhahnOn Wed, 25 Nov 2009, <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26514123&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">diffid@...</a> wrote:
<br>>
<br>> Ok, so is dithering only used for going from high bit depth to lower? Is
<br>> the noise I'm adding after conversion 'dithering' or just damaging the
<br>> image?
<br><br>Just to be clear. Adding noise is adding "damage". Dithering is
<br>adding "damage".
<br><br>>> The video YCbCr to RGB path should not be lossy.
<br>>
<br>> Ok, I thought YCbCr was a bigger colour space and that the conversion to
<br>> RGB (8bit) was lossy.
<br><br>It is true that YCbCr provides an opportunity for a larger color
<br>gammut, but standard Rec.709 video does not use it, and there is no
<br>standard/effective way to use extended gammut because your monitor
<br>can't show it to you. The Rec.709 video model depends on the ability
<br>to convert from RGB to YCbCr and back again with minimal visible loss.
<br><br>Bob
<br>--
<br>Bob Friesenhahn
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26514123&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">bfriesen@...</a>, <a href="http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/</a><br>GraphicsMagick Maintainer, <a href="http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/</a><br><br>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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<br>Cinepaint-users mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26514123&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">Cinepaint-users@...</a>
<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/cinepaint-users-f3976.html" embed="fixTarget[3976]" target="_top" >cinepaint-users</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26511937Really basic script for batch converting.2009-11-25T04:39:31Z2009-11-25T04:39:31ZdiffidHi me again.
<br><br>If I may take your time once more before drawing to a conclusion.
<br><br>Frank Peters wrote:
<br><br>> Added noise during signal conversions is called "dithering" and it serves
<br>> various functions.
<br><br>> Dithering is also used for image color conversions between
<br>> different color depths (a form of sample rate conversion.) Again, the
<br>> same considerations apply. However, dithering is never used to eliminate
<br>> the gaps in a histogram that result from conversion to simply represent
<br>> bits using a higher bit depth.
<br><br>Ok, so is dithering only used for going from high bit depth to lower? Is
<br>the noise I'm adding after conversion 'dithering' or just damaging the
<br>image?
<br><br>> You should not use forums as a primary source of information. Consult
<br>> professional texts (either online or hard copy) and limit forums only
<br>> to supplemental information where a clear cut problem is addressed.
<br><br>> Does Photoshop have technical manuals that discuss their specific
<br>> conversion operations? If so, then consult those.
<br><br>You are absolutely right, as a primary source of info relying on them is
<br>going to lead to confusion. Not best use of the term 'research'.
<br><br>Diffid wrote:
<br><br>>> That's 4 levels of grey where in 8 bit you would have two (20/21/20 goes
<br>>> to L=21).
<br><br>Frank wrote:
<br><br>> But relative to the total scale of 65536 levels these differences are
<br>> minuscule and totally insignificant. On a histogram they would cluster
<br>> imperceptibly if not be totally within the same bin.
<br><br> Bob wrote:
<br><br> > I agree with this. It is interesting though that intentionally adding
<br> > a tiny bit of gaussian noise while the image is still in RGB form will
<br> > result in gray levels with more dispersion. The image may not
<br> > initially look much different to the viewer, but it will become more
<br> > resistant to banding, and also more difficult to compress. Sometimes
<br> > the best way to limit later damage to an image is to intentionally
<br> > inflict damage on it while it is still in pristine form. With this
<br> > technique, the amount of noise intentionally added needs to be more
<br> > than whatever damage might be caused later due to processing, or
<br> >insufficient bits/sample.
<br><br>I think this is what I'm driving at 'become more resistant to banding /
<br>compress'. The intention with these video image frames is to do quite
<br>strong colour correction/grading before encoding back to video codecs. It
<br>seems to do what I'm aiming for (whether that is correct or not) I've been
<br>able to do quite heavy handed HSL and curve adjustments and still have
<br>solid smooth histogram at the end of it. But I still have to take this
<br>through to the final sharpened encoded video files for final playback, I
<br>may find the noise has caused problems.
<br><br>If I'm adding noise, Gimp offers a simulated film grain plugin and
<br>although I'm not aiming to try and simulate film stock in a compromised 8
<br>bit compressed video frame :-) rather futile, if adding noise maybe there
<br>could be further noise options to play with. I'll look into GM noise
<br>options as well.
<br><br>Bob wrote:
<br><br>> GraphicsMagick does not normally use "layers" although it is possible
<br>> to simulate Photoshop layers as multiple images and then use -flatten
<br>> to flatten to one layer.
<br><br>Can I do this on the command line as one process, without making
<br>duplicates of all images, there are thousands, could I
<br><br>Bob wrote:
<br><br>> you may be better off using a common format like 16-bit integer TIFF
<br>which is
<br>> usable by more common applications, and which supports ICC profiles.
<br><br>Yes, I've come to the same conclusion, partly because I can't find a way
<br>to script Cinepaint to do the processing. But also I discover DPX and
<br>32bit Tiff are not well supported in the Compositing App. So looking to GM
<br>/ IM to do the processing and 16bit Tiff for better compatibility and the
<br>ICC profiles.
<br><br><br>Thanks for the CLI commands, I've been looking into the GM/IM options. :-)
<br><br>Bob wrote:
<br><br>> The video YCbCr to RGB path should not be lossy.
<br><br>Ok, I thought YCbCr was a bigger colour space and that the conversion to
<br>RGB (8bit) was lossy.
<br><br>> 4:2:2 is still lossy since it discards color resolution.
<br><br>Yes and I only have 4:2:0 but I had read somewhere that upsampling to
<br>4:2:2 with some sort of smoothing algorithm could massage some of the
<br>blockiness. Again I'm under no illusion that it is possible to make
<br>something out of nothing. I probably read it on some forum somewhere. jk
<br>:-)
<br><br>> If you have the option, you should always edit in RGB space and only
<br>> convert to YCbCr for the final output. Except for special video
<br>> editing software, most image processing software will work in RGB
<br>> space and sometimes in special colorspaces ideal for editing.
<br><br>Yes, the RGB editing is required by the compositing software.
<br><br>But I was unsure as to the point at which to go to RGB as I thought that
<br>YCrCb to RGB was lossy and my thinking was based on that, whether there
<br>was any manipulation that could be done better in YCrCb supported image
<br>format, like any benefit in upsampling to 4:2:2 (obvious that would have
<br>to be done before conversion to RGB), adding the noise, to hold onto more
<br>tonal range before converting to RGB and when converting to RGB going
<br>straight to 16bit from 8bit YCrCb, rather than from 8bit RGB to 16bit RGB.
<br>I'm probably talking complete rubbish. :-)
<br><br>Thanks again, I'm trying to wrap up my query a bit and really appreciate
<br>the advice given this far. I think the add noise may well help disperse
<br>HDV compression a little as well as giving a bit more tolerance to more
<br>agressive colour correction/grading without introducing visbile banding
<br>earlier in the process. 16bit Tiff seems the best option for storage.
<br><br>So as long as the introduced noise doesn't appear later in the process
<br>when encoding out to video codec and ruin the quality, I think it's just
<br>the point at which to go from YCrCb to RGB to hold on to or manufacture
<br>more (by adding discreet noise) tonal values into a 16bit RGB file.
<br><br>I also appreciate based on the advice you have given and understand that
<br>the whole process could be unnecessary and serve no real benefit or
<br>purpose.
<br><br>Thanks again.
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<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/cinepaint-users-f3976.html" embed="fixTarget[3976]" target="_top" >cinepaint-users</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26511911Really basic script for batch converting.2009-11-25T04:37:41Z2009-11-25T04:37:41ZdiffidFrank Peters wrote:
<br><br>> Did it appear gapless?
<br><br>They appeared gapless by eye. :-)
<br><br>> You must realize that the histogram tool in cinepaint, or in other image
<br>processing software, does have the resolution to always show the gaps.
<br>But the gaps from conversion are there.
<br><br>Absolutely, I have meant to mention that I didn't expect them to be
<br>'mathmatically', in reality gapless.
<br><br>Going back to the basic HSL, curves manipulation on 8bit images compared
<br>to dicreet noise introduced after conversion to16bit, the histogram in
<br>Cinepaint did show gaps after basic manipulation at 8bit, at whatever
<br>sampling/resolution Cinepaint operates on.
<br><br>So I assumed that visible gaps by eye on Cinepaints histogram would
<br>translate to rather damaged images and increased likeliness of visibileto
<br>the eye colour banding. Those gaps were not visible after same or worse
<br>HSL manipulation at 16bit.
<br><br>> 65536 steps is an enormous range and it is not practical to create a
<br>histogram tool that will always reveal the fine detail. However,
<br>specialized software can show the detail.
<br><br>I've been looking for a more mathmatical histogram type tool out of
<br>interest. Thank you, I have gnuplot installed, but never thought to use
<br>it.
<br><br>> Even this quick illustration does not do full justice to the changes. In
<br>fact, if the horizontal axis on the second image were to be expanded,
<br>the gaps would be seen to be even greater, while the first image would
<br>still be perfectly uniform. But I did not want to spend a lot of time on
<br>this.
<br><br>Yes point taken, I can only go by eye, that if the image / video frame
<br>looks good visually after all the colour correction and encoding then job
<br>done successfully. I really appreciate your time and your images
<br>illustrate perfectly. :-)
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<br>> Nevermind my last post ;)
<br>>
<br>> Seems I missed the nl_NL locales here, or maybe nl_BE could be added to
<br>> the locale system in TuxPaint?
<br><br>As I'm mentioning on #tux4kids IRC channel to Luc right now,
<br>the locales we provide shortcuts for via "--lang" are only the ones
<br>for which we actually have translations (i.e., ones where we have
<br>gettext a '.po' file)
<br><br>For example, we have "british-english" and "australian-english"
<br>because we actually have separate translations from them
<br>(and separate from the American english in the source, the "C locale").
<br><br>His response is:
<br><br> <Begasus> the translations should be the same (both dutch)
<br> only how it's picked up by tuxpaint
<br><br>In that case, I'm not 100% sure what we should do. If we see
<br>"--lang nederlands", try to set "nl_NL.utf8" and fail... should
<br>we then go through some list (one that includes "nl_BE.utf8")?
<br>Is it sufficient to try asking for just "nl" or "nl.utf8"?
<br><br>Would changing what we're doing now even be a good idea? :)
<br><br>Thanks,
<br><br>-bill!
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<br>> When starting tuxpaint without the --lang option it reverts to dutch
<br>> here, when I try to run the --lang option however it reverts to english,
<br>> dutch is the system default on my debian install and locale -a gives me:
<br>> C
<br>> nl_BE.utf8
<br>> POSIX
<br><br>Whoops. When you issue "--lang nederlands" or "--lang dutch", we see that
<br>and request "nl_NL.utf8" from the locale system.
<br><br>We, err, should be smarter about this, or what?
<br><br>I honestly can't think of any other app that lets you supply locale
<br>stuff on the command-line. If anyone knows of any, speak up.
<br>We should learn from others. :)
<br><br>I like having "--lang" option and config file setting to make it
<br>REALLY REALLY easy to switch languages. Esp. in situations where
<br>someone's letting their children use their computer, and have a
<br>different locale (say, english) than what they want Tux Paint to use
<br>(say, their native tongue).
<br><br>On Linux/etc. we could always say "just open a terminal and
<br>run LC_ALL=xx_XX.utf8 tuxpaint", but that's not 'easy', nor is it
<br>something the majority of Windows or Mac OS X users could manage,
<br>I think. (Esp. if it's situations where the kids THEMSELVES
<br>are launching Tux Paint... say, at a school.)
<br><br>(I also heard of about a kid who ran Tux Paint in a diff lang.
<br>than her native tongue, because she was learning that lang. in
<br>school and was using Tux Paint to practice it. :) )
<br><br>-bill!
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<br><br>Seems I missed the nl_NL locales here, or maybe nl_BE could be added to
<br>the locale system in TuxPaint?
<br>Anyway ... the --lang option works now! Thnx Bill for pointing out. ;)
<br><br>~/develop/tuxpaint$ tuxpaint --lang nederlands
<br>lang 0xbf8a67da, locale (nil)
<br>lang "nederlands", locale "(null)"
<br>lang_prefixes[51] is "nl"
<br><br>Luc
<br><br>Op woensdag 25-11-2009 om 08:53 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Schrijvers
<br>Luc:
<div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>> When starting tuxpaint without the --lang option it reverts to dutch
<br>> here, when I try to run the --lang option however it reverts to english,
<br>> dutch is the system default on my debian install and locale -a gives me:
<br>> C
<br>> nl_BE.utf8
<br>> POSIX
<br>> Terminal output:
<br>> ~/develop/tuxpaint$ tuxpaint --lang nederlands
<br>> lang 0xbf9217da, locale (nil)
<br>> lang "nederlands", locale "(null)"
<br>> lang_prefixes[14] is "en"
<br>> ~/develop/tuxpaint$ tuxpaint
<br>> lang (nil), locale (nil)
<br>> lang "(null)", locale "(null)"
<br>> lang_prefixes[51] is "nl"
<br>> Starting it from the gnome menu also works.
<br>>
<br>> Need to check in Haiku if the latest cvs checkout still works with the
<br>> lang option (as we don't have a locale system yet).
<br>>
<br>> Luc
<br>>
<br>> Op maandag 23-11-2009 om 13:56 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Pere Pujal
<br>> i Carabantes:
<br>> > El dl 23 de 11 de 2009 a les 07:47 +0100, en/na Chion Jacques va
<br>> > escriure:
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > > The locale and lang stuff should work much better now.
<br>> > > > Please try again.
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > > If it doesn't work, see if defining ABUSE_ENV at the top
<br>> > > > of i18n.c helps.
<br>> > > >
<br>> > > >
<br>> > >
<br>> > > 1°) if i type 'tuxpaint', tuxpaint is in french (my locale):
<br>> > > on the console :
<br>> > > lang (nil), locale (nil)
<br>> > > lang "(null)", locale "(null)"
<br>> > > lang_prefixes[27] is "fr"
<br>> > >
<br>> > > 2°) if i type 'tuxpaint --lang french', tuxpaint is in french.
<br>> > > On the console :
<br>> > > lang 0xbfbfd6c7, locale (nil)
<br>> > > lang "french", locale "(null)"
<br>> > > lang_prefixes[27] is "fr"
<br>> > >
<br>> > > 3°) if i type 'tuxpaint --lang english', tuxpaint is in english
<br>> > > On the console :
<br>> > > lang 0xbf89f6c6, locale (nil)
<br>> > > lang "english", locale "(null)"
<br>> > > lang_prefixes[14] is "en"
<br>> > >
<br>> > > 4°) if i type 'tuxpaint --lang spanish', tuxpaint is in english
<br>> > > on the console :
<br>> > > lang 0xbfaf8689, locale (nil)
<br>> > > lang "spanish", locale "(null)"
<br>> > > lang_prefixes[14] is "en"
<br>> > >
<br>> >
<br>> > I can confirm this, when the language called by lang=language is not
<br>> > listed by "locale -a" then it defaults to English.
<br>> >
<br>> > locale -a
<br>> > ar_EG.utf8
<br>> > C
<br>> > ca_ES.utf8
<br>> > el_GR.utf8
<br>> > en_US.utf8
<br>> > es_ES.utf8
<br>> > fr_FR.utf8
<br>> > he_IL.utf8
<br>> > POSIX
<br>> >
<br>> > tuxpaint --lang=italian shows the UI in English
<br>> > ./tuxpaint --lang=italian
<br>> > lang 0xbfe9b823, locale (nil)
<br>> > lang "italian", locale "(null)"
<br>> > lang_prefixes[14] is "en"
<br>> >
<br>> > Adding the italian to locales then it shows in italian.
<br>> > #dpkg-reconfigure locales
<br>> >
<br>> > ./tuxpaint --lang=italian
<br>> > lang 0xbf813823, locale (nil)
<br>> > lang "italian", locale "(null)"
<br>> > lang_prefixes[40] is "it"
<br>> >
<br>> > Pere
<br>> >
<br>> >
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<br>here, when I try to run the --lang option however it reverts to english,
<br>dutch is the system default on my debian install and locale -a gives me:
<br>C
<br>nl_BE.utf8
<br>POSIX
<br>Terminal output:
<br>~/develop/tuxpaint$ tuxpaint --lang nederlands
<br>lang 0xbf9217da, locale (nil)
<br>lang "nederlands", locale "(null)"
<br>lang_prefixes[14] is "en"
<br>~/develop/tuxpaint$ tuxpaint
<br>lang (nil), locale (nil)
<br>lang "(null)", locale "(null)"
<br>lang_prefixes[51] is "nl"
<br>Starting it from the gnome menu also works.
<br><br>Need to check in Haiku if the latest cvs checkout still works with the
<br>lang option (as we don't have a locale system yet).
<br><br>Luc
<br><br>Op maandag 23-11-2009 om 13:56 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Pere Pujal
<br>i Carabantes:
<div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>> El dl 23 de 11 de 2009 a les 07:47 +0100, en/na Chion Jacques va
<br>> escriure:
<br>> > >
<br>> > > The locale and lang stuff should work much better now.
<br>> > > Please try again.
<br>> > >
<br>> > > If it doesn't work, see if defining ABUSE_ENV at the top
<br>> > > of i18n.c helps.
<br>> > >
<br>> > >
<br>> >
<br>> > 1°) if i type 'tuxpaint', tuxpaint is in french (my locale):
<br>> > on the console :
<br>> > lang (nil), locale (nil)
<br>> > lang "(null)", locale "(null)"
<br>> > lang_prefixes[27] is "fr"
<br>> >
<br>> > 2°) if i type 'tuxpaint --lang french', tuxpaint is in french.
<br>> > On the console :
<br>> > lang 0xbfbfd6c7, locale (nil)
<br>> > lang "french", locale "(null)"
<br>> > lang_prefixes[27] is "fr"
<br>> >
<br>> > 3°) if i type 'tuxpaint --lang english', tuxpaint is in english
<br>> > On the console :
<br>> > lang 0xbf89f6c6, locale (nil)
<br>> > lang "english", locale "(null)"
<br>> > lang_prefixes[14] is "en"
<br>> >
<br>> > 4°) if i type 'tuxpaint --lang spanish', tuxpaint is in english
<br>> > on the console :
<br>> > lang 0xbfaf8689, locale (nil)
<br>> > lang "spanish", locale "(null)"
<br>> > lang_prefixes[14] is "en"
<br>> >
<br>>
<br>> I can confirm this, when the language called by lang=language is not
<br>> listed by "locale -a" then it defaults to English.
<br>>
<br>> locale -a
<br>> ar_EG.utf8
<br>> C
<br>> ca_ES.utf8
<br>> el_GR.utf8
<br>> en_US.utf8
<br>> es_ES.utf8
<br>> fr_FR.utf8
<br>> he_IL.utf8
<br>> POSIX
<br>>
<br>> tuxpaint --lang=italian shows the UI in English
<br>> ./tuxpaint --lang=italian
<br>> lang 0xbfe9b823, locale (nil)
<br>> lang "italian", locale "(null)"
<br>> lang_prefixes[14] is "en"
<br>>
<br>> Adding the italian to locales then it shows in italian.
<br>> #dpkg-reconfigure locales
<br>>
<br>> ./tuxpaint --lang=italian
<br>> lang 0xbf813823, locale (nil)
<br>> lang "italian", locale "(null)"
<br>> lang_prefixes[40] is "it"
<br>>
<br>> Pere
<br>>
<br>>
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<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26506629&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">diffid@...</a> wrote:
<br><div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>>
<br>> I've been trying out adding a minute amount of noise to an 16/32bit image
<br>> converted from 8bit in Cinepaint as per early Photoshop 15bit + 1bit noise
<br>> comments in last email and so far I'm happy with outcome.
<br>>
<br>> I've taken an 8bit image in Cinepaint, convert to 16 or 32bit, add a layer
<br>> by duplicating the background, use 'noisify' to add .008 noise to each of
<br>> the 3 channels.
<br>>
<br>> Checking the histogram to see if it is all smooth.
<br>>
</div><br>Did it appear gapless?
<br><br>You must realize that the histogram tool in cinepaint, or in other image
<br>processing software, does have the resolution to always show the gaps.
<br>But the gaps from conversion are there.
<br><br>Here is an illustration:
<br><br>I created a grayscale image, with 8-bit depth, containing a linear ramp of
<br>values from 0 to 255. From this image a data file was created containing
<br>very acrurate histogram values. This data was plotted using gnuplot. It is
<br>shown in this link:
<br><br><a href="http://home.comcast.net/~frank.peters/ramp255.png" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://home.comcast.net/~frank.peters/ramp255.png</a><br><br>Notice that the distribution is perfectly uniform across all values,
<br>as expected. The histogram tool in Cinepaint would show an identical
<br>distribution for this image.
<br><br>Now, this 8-bit image file was then converted into 16-bit. The data
<br>for a histogram was very accurately obtained and plotted in gnuplot.
<br>The result is shown here:
<br><br><a href="http://home.comcast.net/~frank.peters/ramp255to65535.png" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://home.comcast.net/~frank.peters/ramp255to65535.png</a><br><br>Notice the presence of many gaps all across the range. (The plot
<br>consists of many steps going repeatedly from 0 - 1000.) Cinepaint
<br>however would not reveal these gaps. In Cinepaint, the distribution
<br>would appear identical to the previous image.
<br><br>65536 steps is an enormous range and it is not practical to
<br>create a histogram tool that will always reveal the fine detail.
<br>However, specialized software can show the detail.
<br>
<br>Even this quick illustration does not do full justice to the
<br>changes. In fact, if the horizontal axis on the second image
<br>were to be expanded, the gaps would be seen to be even greater,
<br>while the first image would still be perfectly uniform.
<br>But I did not want to spend a lot of time on this.
<br><br>Frank Peters
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<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/cinepaint-users-f3976.html" embed="fixTarget[3976]" target="_top" >cinepaint-users</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26506214Re: Really basic script for batch converting2009-11-24T17:27:31Z2009-11-24T17:27:31ZBob FriesenhahnOn Wed, 25 Nov 2009, <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26506214&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">diffid@...</a> wrote:
<br>>
<br>> I've read both GM and IM documentation online but can't find either
<br>> duplicate layer or add noise?
<br><br>GraphicsMagick does not normally use "layers" although it is possible
<br>to simulate Photoshop layers as multiple images and then use -flatten
<br>to flatten to one layer.
<br><br>GraphicsMagick can otherwise do all that is requested except that it
<br>is not possible to save an ICC profile in DPX since DPX does not
<br>define a standard way to do it. Unless you need the unique features
<br>of DPX (mostly its special header with useful things like timecode,
<br>YCbCr video encoding sub-formats, or Cineon Log space), you may be
<br>better off using a common format like 16-bit integer TIFF which is
<br>usable by more common applications, and which supports ICC profiles.
<br>16-bits/sample is more than enough to support any viewable image
<br>without loss. The ICC profiles will allow better interoperability
<br>with CinePaint or Photoshop.
<br><br>Using GraphicsMagick and to add 6.5% of gaussian noise to all color
<br>channels you can do
<br><br> gm convert input.ppm -operator all Noise-Gaussian '6.5%' output.ppm
<br><br>or to transform many files in-place:
<br><br> gm mogrify -operator all Noise-Gaussian '6.5%' file*.ppm
<br><br>You can also specify individual channels to operate on and use many
<br>-operator commands in the same command line so that you could apply
<br>differing amounts of noise to different channels. See the
<br>documentation for more.
<br><br>> Stepping back. With maintaining as much quality as possible from camera
<br>> HDV (mpeg2) transport stream files in mind and the YCrCb to RGB conversion
<br>> being lossy would it make more sense to go from mpeg2 -> Image format
<br>> supporting YCrCb -> Upsample to 4:2:2 (Beneficial??) -> Convert to 16bit
<br>> -> Convert to RGB Full Range No remapping -> then continue from 2. above.
<br><br>RGB to YCbCr is lossy. The video YCbCr to RGB path should not be
<br>lossy. 4:2:2 is still lossy since it discards color resolution. If
<br>you have the option, you should always edit in RGB space and only
<br>convert to YCbCr for the final output. Except for special video
<br>editing software, most image processing software will work in RGB
<br>space and sometimes in special colorspaces ideal for editing.
<br><br>Bob
<br>--
<br>Bob Friesenhahn
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26506214&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">bfriesen@...</a>, <a href="http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/</a><br>GraphicsMagick Maintainer, <a href="http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/</a><br><br>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/cinepaint-users-f3976.html" embed="fixTarget[3976]" target="_top" >cinepaint-users</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26506053Re: escputil do not start printing when trying to do align on epson c842009-11-24T17:11:18Z2009-11-24T17:11:18ZRobert Krawitz-2 From: Gene Heskett <<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26506053&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">gene.heskett@...</a>>
<br> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:01:01 -0500
<br><br> On Friday 20 November 2009, alain maronani wrote:
<br> >am@am-desktop:~$ sudo escputil -a -r /dev/usb/lp0
<br> >
<br> >Any idea somebody....
<br> >
<br> I see you got the same response I got, point double ought zilch. I wonder
<br> what has become of the list server, it did not even mail me the monthly
<br> reminder last month.
<br><br>Sorry about that, I've had a chaotic weekend with some family health
<br>issues...
<br><br>Does printing otherwise work to this printer (is it only the head
<br>alignment that doesn't work)?
<br><br>--
<br>Robert Krawitz <<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26506053&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">rlk@...</a>>
<br><br>Tall Clubs International -- <a href="http://www.tall.org/" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.tall.org/</a> or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
<br>Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- <a href="http://ProgFree.org" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://ProgFree.org</a><br>Project lead for Gutenprint -- <a href="http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net</a><br><br>"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
<br>--Eric Crampton
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<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gimp-print-devel" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gimp-print-devel</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/gimp-print-devel-f3928.html" embed="fixTarget[3928]" target="_top" >gimp-print-devel</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26505956Re: escputil do not start printing when trying to do align on epson c842009-11-24T17:01:01Z2009-11-24T17:01:01ZGene Heskett-3On Friday 20 November 2009, alain maronani wrote:
<div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>>am@am-desktop:~$ sudo escputil -a -r /dev/usb/lp0
<br>>Escputil version 5.2.4, Copyright (C) 2000-2006 Robert Krawitz
<br>>--------------------------------------------......
<br>>This procedure assumes that your printer is an Epson Stylus C84.
<br>>If this is not your printer model, please type control-C now and
<br>>choose your actual printer model.
<br>>
<br>>Please place a sheet of paper in your printer to begin the head
<br>>alignment procedure.
<br>>Press enter to continue >
<br>>Please inspect the print, and choose the best pair of lines in each
<br>>pattern.
<br>>Type a pair number, '?' for help, or 'r' to repeat the procedure.
<br>>Pass #1> 4
<br>>Pass #2> 8
<br>>Pass #3> 12
<br>>Pass #4> 15
<br>>
<br>>NOTHING START until I provide at least 4 numbers...
<br>>
<br>>Attempting to set alignment...succeeded.
<br>>Please verify that the alignment is correct. After the alignment
<br>>pattern
<br>>is printed again, please ensure that the best pattern for each line is
<br>>pattern 8. If it is not, you should repeat the process to get the best
<br>>quality printing.
<br>>Please insert a fresh sheet of paper.
<br>>Press enter to continue >
<br>>
<br>>BUT NOTHING IS PRINTED......
<br>>
<br>>Please inspect the final output very carefully to ensure that your
<br>>printer is in proper alignment. You may now:
<br>> (s)ave the results in the printer,
<br>> (q)uit without saving the results, or
<br>> (r)epeat the entire process from the beginning.
<br>>You will then be asked to confirm your choice.
<br>>What do you want to do (s, q, r)?
<br>>
<br>>
<br>>other escputil commands works (-s, -c or -n)...
<br>>
<br>>set printer to unidirectionnal mode, Ubuntu 9.10
<br>>
<br>>Try to use -u (useless...) and do not understand what's the utilization
<br>>of -C and -p parameters even if I took the time to check C code.....
<br>>
<br>>escputil print an help msg if you try to use any of these (indicate an
<br>>error for me...)
<br>>
<br>>output of sudo lsusb
<br>>
<br>>am@am-desktop:~$ sudo lsusb
<br>>Bus 008 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
<br>>Bus 007 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
<br>>Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
<br>>Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
<br>>Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
<br>>Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
<br>>Bus 006 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
<br>>Bus 005 Device 007: ID 04b8:0005 Seiko Epson Corp. Stylus D88+
<br>>Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
<br>>
<br>>Any idea somebody....
<br>>
</div>I see you got the same response I got, point double ought zilch. I wonder
<br>what has become of the list server, it did not even mail me the monthly
<br>reminder last month.
<br><br>--
<br>Cheers, Gene
<br>"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
<br> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
<br>-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
<br>The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.
<br><<a href="https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://www.nrahq.org/nrabonus/accept-membership.asp</a>>
<br><br>Network failure - call NBC
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<br>Gimp-print-devel mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26505956&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">Gimp-print-devel@...</a>
<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gimp-print-devel" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gimp-print-devel</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/gimp-print-devel-f3928.html" embed="fixTarget[3928]" target="_top" >gimp-print-devel</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26505900Really basic script for batch converting2009-11-24T16:54:03Z2009-11-24T16:54:03ZdiffidHi
<br><br>I've been trying out adding a minute amount of noise to an 16/32bit image
<br>converted from 8bit in Cinepaint as per early Photoshop 15bit + 1bit noise
<br>comments in last email and so far I'm happy with outcome.
<br><br>I've taken an 8bit image in Cinepaint, convert to 16 or 32bit, add a layer
<br>by duplicating the background, use 'noisify' to add .008 noise to each of
<br>the 3 channels.
<br><br>Checking the histogram to see if it is all smooth.
<br><br>Flatten image layers.
<br><br>Then doing some heavy handed brightness-contrast and HSL I see no gaps
<br>appear in the histogram :-)
<br><br>I take your advice that gaps are not necessarily a problem.
<br><br>With lower noise I see gaps appear in the histogram and higher noise value
<br>noise becomes clearly visible in the image.
<br><br>Adding noise at .008 looks good so far at normal viewing resolution
<br>1920x1080. I can see no visible sign of noise at higher magnification
<br>however yet to view on a HD TV for example.
<br><br>The image files already suffer from HDV compression blockiness which the
<br>noise appears to disperse a little.
<br><br>I shoot with no artificial sharpening done in camera and add gentle
<br>amounts of sharpening done with unsharp mask before encoding to video file
<br>once more. Yet to test this with the added noise.
<br><br>I'm considering GraphicsMagick CLI and using DPX as the format at 16bit
<br>rather than 32bit.
<br><br>So now looking for a command line script to do:
<br><br>1. Convert to 16bit depth
<br>2. Add a layer by duplicating image background
<br>3. Add very fine noise to duplicated layer only
<br>4. Flatten Image
<br>5. Inverse Gamma to Linear RGB (0.454545)
<br>6. Assign Linear sRGB editing colour profile
<br>7. Assign sRGB Display colour profile
<br>8. Save as DPX with embedded ICC profile if supported.
<br><br>I've read both GM and IM documentation online but can't find either
<br>duplicate layer or add noise?
<br><br>Stepping back. With maintaining as much quality as possible from camera
<br>HDV (mpeg2) transport stream files in mind and the YCrCb to RGB conversion
<br>being lossy would it make more sense to go from mpeg2 -> Image format
<br>supporting YCrCb -> Upsample to 4:2:2 (Beneficial??) -> Convert to 16bit
<br>-> Convert to RGB Full Range No remapping -> then continue from 2. above.
<br><br>Many thanks
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<br><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users" target="_top" rel="nofollow">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cinepaint-users</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/cinepaint-users-f3976.html" embed="fixTarget[3976]" target="_top" >cinepaint-users</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26503274Re: [Tuxpaint-cvs] tuxpaint/src i18n.c,1.60,1.612009-11-24T13:07:48Z2009-11-24T13:07:48ZBill KendrickOn Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 01:44:24PM -0700, Martin Fuhrer wrote:
<br>> Yes, (re)moving the fontconfig cache should work as a temporary
<br>> workaround... Caroline has been trying to compile the latest version of
<br>> fontconfig (which appears to have fixed the cache problem at my end) on
<br>> Intel, but ran into some difficulties which I'm still thinking about. I
<br>> may have access to an Intel MacBook this weekend, and will see if I can
<br>> try a new fontconfig build...
<br><br>Ok got it, thanks!
<br><br>-bill!
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<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Bill Kendrick <span dir="ltr"><<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26502946&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">nbs@...</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 09:35:57PM +0000, Caroline Ford wrote:<br>
> 2009/11/23 Bill Kendrick <<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26502946&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">nbs@...</a>><br>
><br>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 09:16:13PM +0000, Caroline Ford wrote:<br>
> > Arrgh do I need to try on OSX? Still can't get get it not to<br>
> crash..<br>
><br>
> With the latest in CVS? Where's the crash?<br>
> -bill!<br>
><br>
> I've not tried the latest in CVS. I was presuming we'd still have the font<br>
> config problem.<br>
<br>
Oh, I thought we decided that a work-around was to remove (or move) the<br>
fontconfig cache out of the way, prior to launching Tux Paint.<br>
Maybe I haven't been paying attention to the bug on SourceForge...?<br>
<br>
-bill!<br>
<br>
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<div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>> 2009/11/23 Bill Kendrick <<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26502832&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">nbs@...</a>>
<br>>
<br>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 09:16:13PM +0000, Caroline Ford wrote:
<br>> > Arrgh do I need to try on OSX? Still can't get get it not to
<br>> crash..
<br>>
<br>> With the latest in CVS? Where's the crash?
<br>> -bill!
<br>>
<br>> I've not tried the latest in CVS. I was presuming we'd still have the font
<br>> config problem.
</div><br>Oh, I thought we decided that a work-around was to remove (or move) the
<br>fontconfig cache out of the way, prior to launching Tux Paint.
<br>Maybe I haven't been paying attention to the bug on SourceForge...?
<br><br>-bill!
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<br>>
<br>> At the risk of sounding a bit arrogant and condescending, these people
<br>> seem to be Photoshop dilettantes who don't really understand image
<br>> processing.
<br><br>It is quite true that there are many people who are very effective at
<br>using Photoshop who know little about image processing.
<br><br>> You should not use forums as a primary source of information. Consult
<br>> professional texts (either online or hard copy) and limit forums only
<br>> to supplemental information where a clear cut problem is addressed.
<br><br>Does this list count as a "forum". :-)
<br><div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>>> 20/20/20 goes to 5120/5120/5120 > L=5120
<br>>> 21/20/20 goes to 5376/5120/5120 > L=5197
<br>>> 20/21/20 goes to 5120/5376/5120 > L=5274
<br>>> 20/20/21 goes to 5120/5120/5376 > L=5147
<br>>>
<br>>> That's 4 levels of grey where in 8 bit you would have two (20/21/20 goes
<br>>> to L=21).
<br>>
<br>> But relative to the total scale of 65536 levels these differences are
<br>> minuscule and totally insignificant. On a histogram they would cluster
<br>> imperceptibly if not be totally within the same bin.
</div><br>I agree with this. It is interesting though that intentionally adding
<br>a tiny bit of gaussian noise while the image is still in RGB form will
<br>result in gray levels with more dispersion. The image may not
<br>initially look much different to the viewer, but it will become more
<br>resistant to banding, and also more difficult to compress. Sometimes
<br>the best way to limit later damage to an image is to intentionally
<br>inflict damage on it while it is still in pristine form. With this
<br>technique, the amount of noise intentionally added needs to be more
<br>than whatever damage might be caused later due to processing, or
<br>insufficient bits/sample.
<br><br>Bob
<br>--
<br>Bob Friesenhahn
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<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26501011&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">diffid@...</a> wrote:
<br><div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>>
<br>> Kevin Connery , Jun 21, 2006; 06:41 a.m.
<br>>
<br>> Photoshop's 16-bit mode is really 15-bits + 1 bit of noise.
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> Kevin Connery , Jun 21, 2006; 06:48 a.m.
<br>>
<br>> Oops. Minor correction. 'Native' 16 bit for Photoshop before CS2 was a
<br>> 16-bit file, but > with 15 bits of precision. CS2 supposedly--but I haven't
<br>> tested it--16-bit precision.
<br>> The conversion from 8 to 16 adds noise.
</div><br>At the risk of sounding a bit arrogant and condescending, these people
<br>seem to be Photoshop dilettantes who don't really understand image
<br>processing.
<br><br>Added noise during signal conversions is called "dithering" and it serves
<br>various functions. During sample rate conversions of audio signals,
<br>for example, dithering is used to prevent spurious frequency production
<br>due to the imperfect data truncation. But such added noise is not enough
<br>to be otherwise perceptible or to have a large effect on the original
<br>signal data. Dithering is also used for image color conversions between
<br>different color depths (a form of sample rate conversion.) Again, the
<br>same considerations apply. However, dithering is never used to eliminate
<br>the gaps in a histogram that result from conversion to simply represent
<br>bits using a higher bit depth.
<br><br>You should not use forums as a primary source of information. Consult
<br>professional texts (either online or hard copy) and limit forums only
<br>to supplemental information where a clear cut problem is addressed.
<br><br>Does Photoshop have technical manuals that discuss their specific
<br>conversion operations? If so, then consult those.
<br><br><div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>>
<br>> This thread was also interesting:
<br>>
<br>> <a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/16_bit_black_and_white.html" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/16_bit_black_and_white.html</a><br>>
<br>>
<br>> 20/20/20 goes to 5120/5120/5120 > L=5120
<br>> 21/20/20 goes to 5376/5120/5120 > L=5197
<br>> 20/21/20 goes to 5120/5376/5120 > L=5274
<br>> 20/20/21 goes to 5120/5120/5376 > L=5147
<br>>
<br>> That's 4 levels of grey where in 8 bit you would have two (20/21/20 goes
<br>> to L=21).
</div><br>But relative to the total scale of 65536 levels these differences are
<br>minuscule and totally insignificant. On a histogram they would cluster
<br>imperceptibly if not be totally within the same bin.
<br><br>This is a commercial site. The author wants to attract readers
<br>for his enterprise. Notice his remark:
<br><br>> I've ignored the fact that Photoshop '16 bit' is actually signed
<br>> 15 bit i.e. +-32k rather than 0-64k)
<br><br>So what? The overall range is exactly the same regardless if we use
<br>signed or unsigned integer representations.
<br><br>Or check this:
<br><br>>
<br>> The difference comes from the fact that an 8 bit RGB file represents 24
<br>> bits of information which, depending on your choice of conversion
<br>> technique, can represent more levels of greyscale that the 256 allowed in
<br>> an 8 bit greyscale image.
<br>>
<br><br>What is meant by "choice of conversion technique?" Presumable he refers
<br>to the determination of luminosity from the specific RGB values which
<br>can be done in more than one way. Indeed, both the GIMP and Cinepaint
<br>equate luminosity in some functions with the max(r,g,b), or the greatest
<br>value of the three. But for practical purposes it make little difference.
<br><br>Frank Peters
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<br>>
<br>> The only file formats of which I am aware that possess a straight
<br>> 32-bit FP RGB format (i.e. no HDR) are TIFF, PFM, and FITS. Your 8-bit
<br>> files should be converted to one of those. For TIFF and PFM there
<br>> are command line programs available (NetPBM and GraphicsMagick).
<br>> For FITS I don't know.
<br><br>GraphicsMagick supports float TIFF and FITS but not PFM.
<br><br>I am not sure what you mean by "HDR" since any float format can
<br>support HDR. It is just a matter of how the numeric range is
<br>interpreted.
<br><br>Bob
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<br><br>I've being doing a bit of research to see how Photoshop/After Effects has
<br>been interpreting 8bit -> 16bit
<br><br>I apologize in advance about another long mail and reproducing a quantity
<br>of bulk but I don't want to assume anyone has time to go following web
<br>page threads when I can hopefully capture the essence in a few lines here
<br>below, I've tried to condense. :-)
<br><br>This thread: <a href="http://photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00H1OS" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00H1OS</a><br><br>Outakes:
<br><br>Kevin Connery , Jun 21, 2006; 06:41 a.m.
<br><br>Photoshop's 16-bit mode is really 15-bits + 1 bit of noise.
<br><br><br>Karl Martin , Jun 21, 2006; 10:52 a.m.
<br><br>Correct. As your tests have shown, if the original data is in 8bit, the
<br>only benefit of converting to 16bit would be for editing (involving
<br>significant changes in dynamic range).
<br><br>Regarding noise, I'm not sure what you are seeing in your last test, but
<br>it would have nothing to do with this 15bit+1bit noise. Noise in the last
<br>bit of data for 16bit colour channels would be absolutely imperceptible,
<br>not just because of the limits of human vision, but because the video card
<br>and monitor never display such information (it would require a 48bit
<br>display system). Again, 16bit channels (48bit total) is only for editing.
<br>You never see that precision in a single displayed image.
<br><br><br>Andrew Rodney , Jun 22, 2006; 08:27 a.m.
<br><br>From: Marc Pawliger Subject: RE: 16 bit and the info palette
<br><br>Message: The high-bit representation in Photoshop has always been "15 1"
<br>bits (32767 (which is the total number of values that can be represented
<br>by 15 bits of precision) 1).
<br><br>This thread was also interesting:
<br><br><a href="http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/16_bit_black_and_white.html" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/16_bit_black_and_white.html</a><br><br>Outakes:
<br><br>Converting Colour to Greyscale
<br><br><br>If you take the 8 bit RGB file to 16 bit RGB then:
<br>20/20/20 goes to 5120/5120/5120 > L=5120
<br>21/20/20 goes to 5376/5120/5120 > L=5205
<br><br>That's 2 levels of grey where in 8 bit you would only have one
<br><br>With the simple averaging conversion 5376/5120/5120 gives the same as say
<br>5120/5376/5120.
<br><br>With the channels mixed in the proportions 30%:60%:10% (simple
<br>'Image>Mode>Greyscale') we get
<br><br>20/20/20 goes to 5120/5120/5120 > L=5120
<br>21/20/20 goes to 5376/5120/5120 > L=5197
<br>20/21/20 goes to 5120/5376/5120 > L=5274
<br>20/20/21 goes to 5120/5120/5376 > L=5147
<br><br>That's 4 levels of grey where in 8 bit you would have two (20/21/20 goes
<br>to L=21).
<br><br>If you include the full range of values between 20/20/20 and 21/21/21. The
<br>16 bit conversion gives 8 different L values instead of two -- that's
<br>effectively a 10 bit greyscale rather than 8 bit.
<br><br>So, as you'd expect, the RGB value for a pixel that is slightly 'greener'
<br>comes out a bit brighter in the greyscale conversion, due to the 60%
<br>weighting for that channel.
<br><br>Note, I've ignored the fact that Photoshop '16 bit' is actually signed 15
<br>bit i.e. +-32k rather than 0-64k)
<br><br>The difference comes from the fact that an 8 bit RGB file represents 24
<br>bits of information which, depending on your choice of conversion
<br>technique, can represent more levels of greyscale that the 256 allowed in
<br>an 8 bit greyscale image.
<br><br>Thus for the example in the table above, and using a simple conversion to
<br>greyscale (at 16 bit), you could get up to 80 levels of greyscale
<br>information in the 5th Stop, rather than the 20 in the 8 bit file.
<br><br>Bearing in mind that when I use my camera I am trying to capture the
<br>maximum tonal range by manually controlling exposure. And the principle
<br>that I am not concerned particularly about getting a 'pretty' video frame
<br>straight off the camera, tonal range is far more important and that
<br>following aquiring the video, compositing and colour correction is going
<br>to happen, I've been considering whether it may be better to work with
<br>image sequences in a 'YUV' type format and convert to 16bit then to RGB?
<br>Is there anything in the above greyscale workflow that I could be doing to
<br>improve values perhaps in 'YUV', 4:2:0.
<br><br>Once again thank you for your time on this. Frank & Bob I have read your
<br>previous comments and taken advice from them, however I thought this mail
<br>was long enough without responding to those comments as well. :-)
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<div class="im">On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 09:16:13PM +0000, Caroline Ford wrote:<br>
> Arrgh do I need to try on OSX? Still can't get get it not to crash..<br>
<br>
</div>With the latest in CVS? Where's the crash?<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
-bill!<br>
<br></div></div></blockquote><div>I've not tried the latest in CVS. I was presuming we'd still have the font config problem. </div></div>
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<br>> Arrgh do I need to try on OSX? Still can't get get it not to crash..
<br><br>With the latest in CVS? Where's the crash?
<br><br>-bill!
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<br><div class="im">
> BTW, I'm assuming that **everybody** participating in<br>
> this discussion runs Linux. If not, speak up now!<br>
> The OS really matters for this.<br>
<br>
</div>Heh. Ugh, I wish it didn't. OSes are overrated.<br>
*switches on his Atari 2600*<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
-bill!<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
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<br>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Bill Kendrick <<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26485782&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">nbs@...</a>> wrote:
<br>> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 01:56:15PM +0100, Pere Pujal i Carabantes wrote:
<br>> >> I can confirm this, when the language called by lang=language is not
<br>> >> listed by "locale -a" then it defaults to English.
<br>> >
<br>> > And this is reasonable, right? (I'm asking ;) )
<br>>
<br>> I don't think this is a behavior change. Is it?
<br><br>It is, actually. I know that Tux Paint supports some
<br>locales that are simply not available on Ubuntu. (e.g., "zam")
<br><br>So now when I run "tuxpaint --lang zapotec", I get English,
<br>which I believe is different from before.
<br><br>(i.e., Tux Paint really _forced_ the locale to work, somehow.)
<br><br><div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>> The i18n setup code is now all in one file, without the
<br>> numerous interacting calles to setlocale and putenv,
<br>> so we can at least see how this happens now. After
<br>> setting the locale, a non-Windows platform reads it
<br>> back to see what we really ended up with.
<br>>
<br>> I'd like to know why Windows is different.
<br>>
<br>> BTW, I'm assuming that **everybody** participating in
<br>> this discussion runs Linux. If not, speak up now!
<br>> The OS really matters for this.
</div><br>Heh. Ugh, I wish it didn't. OSes are overrated.
<br>*switches on his Atari 2600*
<br><br>-bill!
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<br>escriure:
<br>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Bill Kendrick <<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26484669&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">nbs@...</a>> wrote:
<br>> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 01:56:15PM +0100, Pere Pujal i Carabantes wrote:
<br>> >> I can confirm this, when the language called by lang=language is not
<br>> >> listed by "locale -a" then it defaults to English.
<br>> >
<br>> > And this is reasonable, right? (I'm asking ;) )
<br>>
<br>> I don't think this is a behavior change. Is it?
<br><br>Yes. In the latest release you can run Tuxpaint in Swahili withouth
<br>having the Swahili locale.
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<br>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 01:56:15PM +0100, Pere Pujal i Carabantes wrote:
<br>>> I can confirm this, when the language called by lang=language is not
<br>>> listed by "locale -a" then it defaults to English.
<br>>
<br>> And this is reasonable, right? (I'm asking ;) )
<br><br>I don't think this is a behavior change. Is it?
<br><br>The i18n setup code is now all in one file, without the
<br>numerous interacting calles to setlocale and putenv,
<br>so we can at least see how this happens now. After
<br>setting the locale, a non-Windows platform reads it
<br>back to see what we really ended up with.
<br><br>I'd like to know why Windows is different.
<br><br>BTW, I'm assuming that **everybody** participating in
<br>this discussion runs Linux. If not, speak up now!
<br>The OS really matters for this.
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<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26484175&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">diffid@...</a> wrote:
<br><br><br>With 8-bit data such "gaps" are to be expected, although they are not
<br>inevitable. Contrast adjustment involves remapping the pixel levels
<br>into a new range. The result of such a mapping is that pixel values
<br>that were formerly close in value (e.g. 50, 51) could become mapped to
<br>values that are further apart (e.g. 100, 110). This is what causes
<br>the histogram "gaps" and they are not necessarily something that should
<br>be avoided.
<br><br>If the contrast is adjusted too severely, some pixel values may become
<br>too far apart and that could cause visible banding to appear in the
<br>resulting image, but such banding cannot usually be predicted from
<br>examining histogram gaps.
<br><br>In short, if the image looks good, the histogram gaps are irrelevant
<br>
<br><br>> I've read that when these 8bit images are taken into Adobe After Effects,
<br>> no doubt Photoshop as well and a 16bit or better project workspace is
<br>> adopted it is said that, "something miraculous happens, the gaps (to the
<br>> histogram) have disappeared, what's happened is the old colour values have
<br>> been freed from the 8bit restriction and moved freely into the new range
<br>> (16bit) evenly distributing themselves"
<br>>
<br><br>If the gaps in a histogram have disappeared, then the image has,
<br>of necessity, been altered, possibly drastically.
<br><br>A histogram is only a record of the pixel intensities. It shows
<br>how many pixels of a certain level exist within an image. Gaps
<br>in the histogram simply mean that intensity levels don't exist
<br>within a certain range and that is not necessarily a bad thing.
<br><br>But a histogram cannot be interpolated to make it "gapless" and
<br>"smooth." That would entail removing some pixel intensities
<br>and adding others that didn't originally exist. It would
<br>constitute a drastic alteration and distortion of the original
<br>image.
<br><br>When converting from 8-bit to 16-bit you are going to get gaps.
<br>For example, pixels 100 and 101 will be converted into 25600
<br>and 25856. The gaps will be even greater when converting to
<br>32-bit. Those gaps cannot be "interpolated" or "filled in"
<br>without totally destroying the original image. But they are
<br>also of absolutely no consequence.
<br><br>>
<br>> So that's where I'm at, trying to massage my 8 bit video files into a
<br>> 32bit precison environment for compositing and colour correction.
<br>>
<br><br>The only file formats of which I am aware that possess a straight
<br>32-bit FP RGB format (i.e. no HDR) are TIFF, PFM, and FITS. Your 8-bit
<br>files should be converted to one of those. For TIFF and PFM there
<br>are command line programs available (NetPBM and GraphicsMagick).
<br>For FITS I don't know.
<br><br>But will your other software accept any of these formats?
<br>That is the important question.
<br><br>Frank Peters
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<br>escriure:
<br>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 01:56:15PM +0100, Pere Pujal i Carabantes wrote:
<br>> > I can confirm this, when the language called by lang=language is not
<br>> > listed by "locale -a" then it defaults to English.
<br>>
<br>> And this is reasonable, right? (I'm asking ;) )
<br><br>This sounds reasonable, but I think we have translations to some
<br>languages that are still not included in the "locales" package shipped
<br>with Linux distributions. Don't know how other OS behave about locales.
<br><br>Pere
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<br>> I can confirm this, when the language called by lang=language is not
<br>> listed by "locale -a" then it defaults to English.
<br><br>And this is reasonable, right? (I'm asking ;) )
<br><br>-bill!
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