« Return to Thread: [DISCUSS] EasyAnt: Ant based pre packaged build system for java projects
Re: [DISCUSS] EasyAnt: Ant based pre packaged build system for java projects
by Xavier Hanin
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FYI I've cross posted my e-mail as a post on my blog:
http://xhab.blogspot.com/2008/01/easyant-ant-based-pre-packaged-build.html
And karenin commented with a link to his light POC of a build system very
similar to what we are discussing here:
http://code.google.com/p/merevaik/
I hope karenin will join the discussion, I think he has a very neat way of
packaging the build files (at least similar to what you suggest Gilles).
As I say on my comment on my blog, there's one thing I fear with such
packaging system: they somewhat hide the information on the build files
used. And I think people who maintain build system like to see how the build
system works, and since most people are proficient with Ant, I think giving
easy access to the build files sources is important to avoid any "black
magic". But there are solutions to provide both good packaging and easy
reading.
Xavier
On Jan 10, 2008 4:36 PM, Gilles Scokart <gscokart@...> wrote:
> I already thinked to something similar as well (after having re-written a
> few time generic build scripts).
>
> For me, one of the issues to solve is the problem of packaging a set of
> reusable build script in a nice way. For that,
> my idea was to use a "BAR" (Builder Archive). That would be a packaged jar
> that would include a build script with the
> life cycle, and some standard 'plug-in' builds scripts extending the life
> cycle in a standard way, (and potentally also
> the class for some task). That way, all you need to build is ant, the
> bar, and your project build script that would set
> some properties and include the right build files coming from the bar.
>
> An other difficulty is to document those reusable build scripts. I have
> already re-written a few reusable build
> scripts, but I have to admit that I never managed to get the right level
> of documentation for it.
>
> Finally, I stopped my reflections, thinking that it is certainly something
> that already exists in the wild. Does it?
>
> Gilles
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Matt Benson [mailto:gudnabrsam@...]
> > Sent: jeudi 10 janvier 2008 16:12
> > To: Ant Developers List
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] EasyAnt: Ant based pre packaged build system for
> java projects
> >
> > Xavier:
> > I think it would be good to have a system that
> > pretty much bundles alternatives for everything Maven
> > provides, but without all the black magic that makes
> > Maven difficult to customize. Basically antlibs for
> > all parts of the Maven lifecycle, including,
> > especially, Ivy. :) In fact, I already came up with
> > my own name for this concept some time back:
> > "Shaven". ;)
> >
> > -Matt
> >
> > --- Xavier Hanin <xavier.hanin@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > It's been a long time since I'm thinking about this,
> > > and thought it might be
> > > interesting to share with you and see where the idea
> > > can go.
> > >
> > > I see many developers adopt Maven because they want
> > > a build system able to
> > > provide common features with no effort. Most of them
> > > don't want to spend
> > > much time writing an Ant script, or have seen or
> > > heard that maintaining Ant
> > > build scripts is troublesome. So they choose to use
> > > Maven only because it's
> > > easy to use for common use cases: install, write a
> > > simple pom of a few lines
> > > or generate it using an archetype, and you're ready
> > > to compile, test and
> > > package your new project following the Maven
> > > standard structure. They also
> > > get dependency management for free, and with only a
> > > few more effort they
> > > have multi module builds, and some nice features
> > > like code analysis,
> > > coverage, and a set of report gathered in a web
> > > site. That's really nice and
> > > that's what I like about Maven.
> > >
> > > But Maven suffers from a lack of flexibility and
> > > robustness IMHO. And later
> > > the same people who first adopted Maven because of
> > > its perceived ease of use
> > > become frustrated when they need to tweek the system
> > > to their own needs or
> > > don't understand how the release plugin work. Then
> > > some of them go back to
> > > Ant, first having to go through a sometimes painful
> > > road to describe their
> > > whole build system in xml, especially if they aren't
> > > Ant experts. Others try
> > > to use new build tools like raven, buildr or others.
> > >
> > > I really like Ant, and think it is a very good basis
> > > for robust and flexible
> > > build systems. People with enough knowledge of Ant
> > > can write very good build
> > > systems, testable, maintainable and adaptable. But
> > > you need to get your
> > > hands dirty, and you need to get a good knowledge of
> > > some of the mechanisms
> > > which can make an Ant based build system manageable:
> > > import, scripts and
> > > scriptdef, macrodef, presetdef, and so on.
> > >
> > > Hence I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to
> > > package a set of Ant
> > > build files, providing all the basic features of a
> > > build system for java
> > > projects: dependency management, compilation,
> > > testing and packaging, plus
> > > maybe some more advanced features like code coverage
> > > and code auditing.
> > > Multi module build support would be nice to have
> > > too. Then someone needing
> > > only those features could simply have a build file
> > > per project mostly
> > > consisting of a single import of the common build
> > > file provided. Some
> > > needing more could provide plugins to the build
> > > system itself. Some needing
> > > to tweak the system could simply override some
> > > target definitions or
> > > properties. Others with very specific needs could
> > > simply use the build
> > > scripts as examples or basis.
> > >
> > > I guess most people on this list know the benefit of
> > > having such a build
> > > system and how well it scales, and most of us
> > > already have developed such a
> > > set of build files. But providing the basis of such
> > > a good build system well
> > > packaged and documented could improve the Ant
> > > community IMO. With some
> > > efforts from our community we could end up with
> > > something interesting pretty
> > > easily. Most of us don't have much time, but we
> > > probably already have a good
> > > basis from the build files we work with around, and
> > > if this can be done in a
> > > community effort it could remain affordable in terms
> > > of time required.
> > >
> > > So, what do you think? Do you think this would be
> > > useful? Would you be
> > > interested in contributing? Do you think a new Ant
> > > sub project would be a
> > > good fit?
> > >
> > > Xavier
> > > --
> > > Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
> > > http://xhab.blogspot.com/
> > > http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
> > > http://www.xoocode.org/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@...
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@...
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@...
>
>
--
Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
http://xhab.blogspot.com/
http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
http://www.xoocode.org/
http://xhab.blogspot.com/2008/01/easyant-ant-based-pre-packaged-build.html
And karenin commented with a link to his light POC of a build system very
similar to what we are discussing here:
http://code.google.com/p/merevaik/
I hope karenin will join the discussion, I think he has a very neat way of
packaging the build files (at least similar to what you suggest Gilles).
As I say on my comment on my blog, there's one thing I fear with such
packaging system: they somewhat hide the information on the build files
used. And I think people who maintain build system like to see how the build
system works, and since most people are proficient with Ant, I think giving
easy access to the build files sources is important to avoid any "black
magic". But there are solutions to provide both good packaging and easy
reading.
Xavier
On Jan 10, 2008 4:36 PM, Gilles Scokart <gscokart@...> wrote:
> I already thinked to something similar as well (after having re-written a
> few time generic build scripts).
>
> For me, one of the issues to solve is the problem of packaging a set of
> reusable build script in a nice way. For that,
> my idea was to use a "BAR" (Builder Archive). That would be a packaged jar
> that would include a build script with the
> life cycle, and some standard 'plug-in' builds scripts extending the life
> cycle in a standard way, (and potentally also
> the class for some task). That way, all you need to build is ant, the
> bar, and your project build script that would set
> some properties and include the right build files coming from the bar.
>
> An other difficulty is to document those reusable build scripts. I have
> already re-written a few reusable build
> scripts, but I have to admit that I never managed to get the right level
> of documentation for it.
>
> Finally, I stopped my reflections, thinking that it is certainly something
> that already exists in the wild. Does it?
>
> Gilles
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Matt Benson [mailto:gudnabrsam@...]
> > Sent: jeudi 10 janvier 2008 16:12
> > To: Ant Developers List
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] EasyAnt: Ant based pre packaged build system for
> java projects
> >
> > Xavier:
> > I think it would be good to have a system that
> > pretty much bundles alternatives for everything Maven
> > provides, but without all the black magic that makes
> > Maven difficult to customize. Basically antlibs for
> > all parts of the Maven lifecycle, including,
> > especially, Ivy. :) In fact, I already came up with
> > my own name for this concept some time back:
> > "Shaven". ;)
> >
> > -Matt
> >
> > --- Xavier Hanin <xavier.hanin@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > It's been a long time since I'm thinking about this,
> > > and thought it might be
> > > interesting to share with you and see where the idea
> > > can go.
> > >
> > > I see many developers adopt Maven because they want
> > > a build system able to
> > > provide common features with no effort. Most of them
> > > don't want to spend
> > > much time writing an Ant script, or have seen or
> > > heard that maintaining Ant
> > > build scripts is troublesome. So they choose to use
> > > Maven only because it's
> > > easy to use for common use cases: install, write a
> > > simple pom of a few lines
> > > or generate it using an archetype, and you're ready
> > > to compile, test and
> > > package your new project following the Maven
> > > standard structure. They also
> > > get dependency management for free, and with only a
> > > few more effort they
> > > have multi module builds, and some nice features
> > > like code analysis,
> > > coverage, and a set of report gathered in a web
> > > site. That's really nice and
> > > that's what I like about Maven.
> > >
> > > But Maven suffers from a lack of flexibility and
> > > robustness IMHO. And later
> > > the same people who first adopted Maven because of
> > > its perceived ease of use
> > > become frustrated when they need to tweek the system
> > > to their own needs or
> > > don't understand how the release plugin work. Then
> > > some of them go back to
> > > Ant, first having to go through a sometimes painful
> > > road to describe their
> > > whole build system in xml, especially if they aren't
> > > Ant experts. Others try
> > > to use new build tools like raven, buildr or others.
> > >
> > > I really like Ant, and think it is a very good basis
> > > for robust and flexible
> > > build systems. People with enough knowledge of Ant
> > > can write very good build
> > > systems, testable, maintainable and adaptable. But
> > > you need to get your
> > > hands dirty, and you need to get a good knowledge of
> > > some of the mechanisms
> > > which can make an Ant based build system manageable:
> > > import, scripts and
> > > scriptdef, macrodef, presetdef, and so on.
> > >
> > > Hence I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to
> > > package a set of Ant
> > > build files, providing all the basic features of a
> > > build system for java
> > > projects: dependency management, compilation,
> > > testing and packaging, plus
> > > maybe some more advanced features like code coverage
> > > and code auditing.
> > > Multi module build support would be nice to have
> > > too. Then someone needing
> > > only those features could simply have a build file
> > > per project mostly
> > > consisting of a single import of the common build
> > > file provided. Some
> > > needing more could provide plugins to the build
> > > system itself. Some needing
> > > to tweak the system could simply override some
> > > target definitions or
> > > properties. Others with very specific needs could
> > > simply use the build
> > > scripts as examples or basis.
> > >
> > > I guess most people on this list know the benefit of
> > > having such a build
> > > system and how well it scales, and most of us
> > > already have developed such a
> > > set of build files. But providing the basis of such
> > > a good build system well
> > > packaged and documented could improve the Ant
> > > community IMO. With some
> > > efforts from our community we could end up with
> > > something interesting pretty
> > > easily. Most of us don't have much time, but we
> > > probably already have a good
> > > basis from the build files we work with around, and
> > > if this can be done in a
> > > community effort it could remain affordable in terms
> > > of time required.
> > >
> > > So, what do you think? Do you think this would be
> > > useful? Would you be
> > > interested in contributing? Do you think a new Ant
> > > sub project would be a
> > > good fit?
> > >
> > > Xavier
> > > --
> > > Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
> > > http://xhab.blogspot.com/
> > > http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
> > > http://www.xoocode.org/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@...
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@...
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@...
>
>
--
Xavier Hanin - Independent Java Consultant
http://xhab.blogspot.com/
http://ant.apache.org/ivy/
http://www.xoocode.org/
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