Re: Genesis results

[Arthur Middleton home]

snip

>Actually it's not just Motorcycle manu's who are afraid of what people
>will say (poor dears) In me F.1 days we developed an airbox, with Rolls
>Royce, which was shaped to maximise flow but looked unlike the airboxes
>that everyone else was runnings.  Gave another 400 rpm at the end of the
>Goodwood straight in testing.  We took it to South America and South
>Africa but never fitted it to the car 'cos Frank was afraid people would
>laugh.  He's probably got over laughing by now I guess.  We never
>worried about people laughing at us, we were too busy laughing at the
>motorcycles we'd just stuffed.  I still am.
>
>Royce

Ken Tyrell didn't seem to mind.

BTW, it appears in the snipped replies that I don't think roll down tests are a good
thing. This is incorrect; they are perhaps the best we have without a tunnel or CFD. Just
one caution is comparing one bike with another. The high rolling resistance of motorbike
tyres, transmissions, brake drag, etc. means the differences between bikes can easily
distort the results. Very good if you can use the same bike each time and you allow for
things like wind speed and direction, which is what Bob suggested in the first place.

Arthur.




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[Royce Creasey]

Arthur Middleton wrote:

>snip
>  
>
>Ken Tyrell didn't seem to mind.
>snip.
>Arthur.
>  
>
Tyrell, McLaren etc. all had 'normal' airboxes as did our March 712's
and Iso-Malboroughs.  The one we didn't run really did look a bit odd..

Royce

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[Arthur Middleton home]

>>Ken Tyrell didn't seem to mind.
>>snip.
>>Arthur.
>>
>>
>Tyrell, McLaren etc. all had 'normal' airboxes as did our March 712's
>and Iso-Malboroughs.  The one we didn't run really did look a bit odd..
>
>Royce

I wasn't really thinking of air boxes, more the weird wings and 6 wheels and things like
that. Stuff that got banned, presumably because it didn't suit the F1 image for the
sponsors of the sport.

The same philosophy prevails in every advertising supported sport, I suppose. It's
marketing. Technical performance is a secondary consideration.

Now if we could get a marketing department acceptable fairing that had lots of advertising
space...

Arthur.




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[Royce Creasey]

Arthur Middleton wrote:

>>>Ken Tyrell didn't seem to mind.
>>>snip.
>>>Arthur.
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Tyrell, McLaren etc. all had 'normal' airboxes as did our March 712's
>>and Iso-Malboroughs.  The one we didn't run really did look a bit odd..
>>
>>Royce
>>    
>>
>
>I wasn't really thinking of air boxes, more the weird wings and 6 wheels and things like
>that. Stuff that got banned, presumably because it didn't suit the F1 image for the
>sponsors of the sport.
>
>The same philosophy prevails in every advertising supported sport, I suppose. It's
>marketing. Technical performance is a secondary consideration.
>
>Now if we could get a marketing department acceptable fairing that had lots of advertising
>space...
>
>Arthur.
>
>  
>

It wasn't the sponsors, it was the institutions again, the FIA. Six
wheelers because cars have four wheels, everyone knows that.  In the
case of wings they were originally trying to stop them falling off by
banning  high wing struts (Both Lotus lost their wings and crashed in
the same place on successive laps, Barcelona, 1970) and then trying to
stop the cars going so fast.  This latter was the historic mistake of
that generation (1980-2000)  They reduced the size and effectiveness of
the wings. The engineers, naturally, came up with more download from
less wing, although it was more critical aerodynamically.  This process
continued untill the wings were so critcal they didn't work when
following another car, making overtaking almost impossible - and quite
possibly leading to some high profile fatalities.  The FIA should have
imposed a minimum wing area and a minimum angle of attack, providing
grossly excessive download.  The engineers would then have made the
wings less critical, to reduce drag, and they would have been able to
follow other cars more closely and even overtake.  So it goes.

In the '70s sponsors were quite unfazed by novelty, they just wanted
their name on the winning thing whatever it was. Had to be well-polished
though. Shiny wheels were very popular

Royce




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[Eddie McDonnell]

Royce Creasey said >

> .......Of course fitting a tail to a two-wheeler means it looks
> completely different to a motorcycle
> and means that Honad, BMW, Triumph, Yamaha and
> any other manu you care to mention don't have the
> balls to try it

What's their problem? You can't see the tail section
when you're using the thing.



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[Eddie McDonnell]

Arthur Middleton said -
.. if we could get a marketing department acceptable
fairing that had lots of advertising space...

The Voyager rear 'Fridge?' No?
Lots of space....





 





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[Arthur Middleton home]

>-----Original Message-----
>From: feet_forward@...
>[mailto:feet_forward@...]On Behalf Of Eddie McDonnell
>Royce Creasey said >
>
>> .......Of course fitting a tail to a two-wheeler means it looks
>> completely different to a motorcycle
>> and means that Honad, BMW, Triumph, Yamaha and
>> any other manu you care to mention don't have the
>> balls to try it
>
>What's their problem? You can't see the tail section
>when you're using the thing.

There's using it to ride, and there's using it to pose. The latter seems to be the
priority.

Arthur.




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[Royce Creasey]

Eddie McDonnell wrote:

>Royce Creasey said >
>
>  
>
>>.......Of course fitting a tail to a two-wheeler means it looks
>>completely different to a motorcycle
>>and means that Honad, BMW, Triumph, Yamaha and
>>any other manu you care to mention don't have the
>>balls to try it
>>    
>>
>
>What's their problem? You can't see the tail section
>when you're using the thing.
>  
>

"The market has to be evolved so that people will accept shapes like this"
Honad 2003

But the world will run out opf petrol first.  Like I said, corporate
cowardice.

Royce

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[Julian Bond]

Arthur Middleton <artmidd@...> Fri, 19 May 2006 16:49:39
>There's using it to ride, and there's using it to pose. The latter
>seems to be the
>priority.

And then there's looking at it parked from across the street while
having a beer.

And looking at the space in your garage where it was last night.

--
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[Graham Addis]

Arthur,

> Corriboard is cheap anyway (as used in Genesis proto bodywork). I
> bought a few sheets to
> make a skeleton for a model of a fairing recently. About 8 euro

This stuff?
http://www.nip-ltd.co.uk/products.htm

How did you get on with bends or creases which didn't line up with the
corrugations, or did you not have any?

Thanks,

Graham



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[Peter Fouché]

--- Arthur Middleton <artmidd@...> wrote:

> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: feet_forward@...
> >[mailto:feet_forward@...]On Behalf Of
> Eddie McDonnell
> >Royce Creasey said >
> >
> >> .......Of course fitting a tail to a two-wheeler
> means it looks
> >> completely different to a motorcycle
> >> and means that Honad, BMW, Triumph, Yamaha and
> >> any other manu you care to mention don't have the
> >> balls to try it
> >
> >What's their problem? You can't see the tail
> section
> >when you're using the thing.
>
> There's using it to ride, and there's using it to
> pose. The latter seems to be the
> priority.
>
> Arthur.
>

I guess the faster a FF overtakes a HF, the shorter
time it is seen and the less important styling is -
not enough time to pose. Does this explain FJ?

Perhaps the rear fridge is to give a large space to
display royces web address????

Peter

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[Arthur Middleton home]

>> Corriboard is cheap anyway (as used in Genesis proto bodywork). I
>> bought a few sheets to
>> make a skeleton for a model of a fairing recently. About 8 euro
>
>This stuff?
>http://www.nip-ltd.co.uk/products.htm
>
>How did you get on with bends or creases which didn't line up with the
>corrugations, or did you not have any?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Graham

That, or a generic version of it. The skeleton was made with lofted cross sections in 3
planes, so only flat pieces. Covered with parcel tape so far. I am going to try a papier
mache shell to check the fit before I spend real money and too much time on a shape. Since
the shape is modelled in 3D CAD, it can be reproduced pretty much exactly, so any
clearance or fit issues can be sorted out before I spend the money on machined moulds. Or
I might mould the thing directly over the paper shell.

The head fairing mould on the GPZFF was made from the same type of material, but planked,
carvel style with thinner Corriboard which allowed some bending. As you correctly observe,
it creases easily along its length. I moulded the fairing in GRP polyester over the
outside, with light weight filler to smooth it off. This is not really good enough, as
first it is a lot of work to smooth off, and second ends up being too heavy. Moulding over
the male is OK though, as long as the male plug is reasonably smooth to begin with. This
is what Ian Pegram did with the latest Genesis.

Arthur.




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[Royce Creasey]

graham addis wrote:

>Arthur,
>
>  
>
>>Corriboard is cheap anyway (as used in Genesis proto bodywork). I
>>bought a few sheets to
>>make a skeleton for a model of a fairing recently. About 8 euro
>>    
>>
>
>This stuff?
>http://www.nip-ltd.co.uk/products.htm
>
>How did you get on with bends or creases which didn't line up with the
>corrugations, or did you not have any?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Graham
>
>  
>

Cut through on side with a stanley knife, tank tape it over after
bending to shape

Royce


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[Angib]

ianpegram@... wrote:
>
>Cd was  0.35 with the doors on, and 0.45 with the doors off.  Which sounds a
>bit high to me, but was saved by a small frontal area. Could do
>better..........
>

Sounds bloody brilliant to me - your 0.35 is a non-optimised figure
so if a major manufacturer built it and did some serious 'puter or
tunnel work on the details, it would certainly go below 0.30 and
might get to 0.26 - so 'only' as good as the best production road
vehicle then......

Andrew




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[ianpegram]

Thanks Andrew.
 
Was looking at the Bath Uni site, and discovered an English guy trying to  
beat world fuel economy record, with home brewed vehicle. I accept that it  
doesn't relate to 'real world' [36cc and at 18mph] but the aim was 6,600 miles  
per gallon,,,now that's what I call economy.
 
Have a meeting with Southampton Uni to discuss future Genesis products,  
which will involve their head aero's guy, so have got someone  interested.....
 
As for racing FF, that was exactely what Dave Pearce (Tigcraft) suggested,  
and he was willing to source a full race engine (400cc) build the frame etc,
125  cc Midi Moto size, and a world leading mini jockey to do the driving.
Sadly, no  one else was interested in the project.....but it hasn't been forgotten.
 
Ride safe
 
Ian (P)
Genesis Motorcycles.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Ed Form]

ianpegram@... wrote:

> As for racing FF, that was exactely what Dave Pearce (Tigcraft) suggested,  
> and he was willing to source a full race engine (400cc) build the frame etc,
> 125  cc Midi Moto size, and a world leading mini jockey to do the driving.
> Sadly, no  one else was interested in the project.....but it hasn't been forgotten.

Why don't we ask Dan Gurney if he's interested in arranging competitive
tests of a stripped Alligator fitted with a blagged full-race version of
the Honda single, and a conventional Singles racer? This would a
real-world like-for-like comparison and a highly developed FF machine
exists already.

Ed Form


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[Arthur Middleton home]

snip
>As for racing FF, that was exactely what Dave Pearce (Tigcraft) suggested,
>and he was willing to source a full race engine (400cc) build the frame etc,
>125  cc Midi Moto size, and a world leading mini jockey to do the driving.
>Sadly, no  one else was interested in the project.....but it hasn't been forgotten.
>
>Ride safe
>
>Ian (P)
>Genesis Motorcycles.

As I recall, Dave Pearce wanted someone else to pay for it. Which is the problem, isn't
it?

Arthur.




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[Guy Hockley]

> snip
>>As for racing FF, that was exactely what Dave Pearce (Tigcraft) suggested,
>>and he was willing to source a full race engine (400cc) build the frame
>>etc,
>>125  cc Midi Moto size, and a world leading mini jockey to do the driving.
>>Sadly, no  one else was interested in the project.....but it hasn't been
>>forgotten.
>>
>>Ride safe
>>
>>Ian (P)
>>Genesis Motorcycles.
>
> As I recall, Dave Pearce wanted someone else to pay for it. Which is the
> problem, isn't
> it?
>
> Arthur.
>

I hadn't registered he was talking about a racer, and anyway, didn't he self
finance the original MiniMono?

Guy



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[Arthur Middleton home]

>> snip
>>>As for racing FF, that was exactely what Dave Pearce (Tigcraft) suggested,
>>>and he was willing to source a full race engine (400cc) build the frame
>>>etc,
>>>125  cc Midi Moto size, and a world leading mini jockey to do the driving.
>>>Sadly, no  one else was interested in the project.....but it hasn't been
>>>forgotten.
>>>
>>>Ride safe
>>>
>>>Ian (P)
>>>Genesis Motorcycles.
>>
>> As I recall, Dave Pearce wanted someone else to pay for it. Which is the
>> problem, isn't
>> it?
>>
>> Arthur.
>>
>I hadn't registered he was talking about a racer, and anyway, didn't he self
>finance the original MiniMono?
>
>Guy

Maybe that's why he wants someone else to pay for the FF racer... (assuming my
interpretation is correct).

Arthur.




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[Peter Fouché]

--- Arthur Middleton <artmidd@...> wrote:

> >> snip
> >>>As for racing FF, that was exactely what Dave
> Pearce (Tigcraft) suggested,
> >>>and he was willing to source a full race engine
> (400cc) build the frame
> >>>etc,
> >>>125  cc Midi Moto size, and a world leading mini
> jockey to do the driving.
> >>>Sadly, no  one else was interested in the
> project.....but it hasn't been
> >>>forgotten.
> >>>
> >>>Ride safe
> >>>
> >>>Ian (P)
> >>>Genesis Motorcycles.
> >>
> >> As I recall, Dave Pearce wanted someone else to
> pay for it. Which is the
> >> problem, isn't
> >> it?
> >>
> >> Arthur.
> >>
> >I hadn't registered he was talking about a racer,
> and anyway, didn't he self
> >finance the original MiniMono?
> >
> >Guy
>
> Maybe that's why he wants someone else to pay for
> the FF racer... (assuming my
> interpretation is correct).
>
> Arthur.
>

Well he is a business man. You cab hardly blame him
for offering a service for sale. Many of us would like
to see FFs raced. Some would probably put a lot of our
own time and some of our own money into building them
- so what is wrong (in principle) in directly funding
something like this

It just goes against the grain -but like I say - you
can't blame him for offering.

Peter

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