Re: [commits] Horde-Hatchery branch master updated. 5d46697409298e3a520583b63170a517c8e32e53

[Chuck Hagenbuch]

Quoting Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:

> commit 8771de77aeb56f74372962183ac89535882762fa
> Author: Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>
> Date:   Thu Sep 17 15:58:46 2009 -0600
>
>     Play around with some bordering in the dimp message list
>
>     Comments welcome.

I like the old look a lot better. I think if there's a real call for  
some sort of bordering that it should just be horizontal lines, not  
vertical. Anything really grid-like doesn't look or feel good to me.

Thanks,
-chuck

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[Michael M Slusarz-2]

Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:

> Quoting Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:
>
>> commit 8771de77aeb56f74372962183ac89535882762fa
>> Author: Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>
>> Date:   Thu Sep 17 15:58:46 2009 -0600
>>
>>    Play around with some bordering in the dimp message list
>>
>>    Comments welcome.
>
> I like the old look a lot better. I think if there's a real call for  
> some sort of bordering that it should just be horizontal lines, not  
> vertical. Anything really grid-like doesn't look or feel good to me.

I didn't like them much when I first implemented them.  But it is  
growing on me.

And we need something because the situations where the status icons  
bleed into the From column, or the Subject bleeds into the  
Arrival/Date column, are practically unreadable without some sort of  
column delimiter.  Using ellipses is not a viable solution either (it  
was my first solution, but it is just about impossible to do  
dynamically cross-browser).

michael

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[Chuck Hagenbuch]

Quoting Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:

> Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>
>> Quoting Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:
>>
>>> commit 8771de77aeb56f74372962183ac89535882762fa
>>> Author: Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>
>>> Date:   Thu Sep 17 15:58:46 2009 -0600
>>>
>>>   Play around with some bordering in the dimp message list
>>>
>>>   Comments welcome.
>>
>> I like the old look a lot better. I think if there's a real call  
>> for some sort of bordering that it should just be horizontal lines,  
>> not vertical. Anything really grid-like doesn't look or feel good  
>> to me.
>
> I didn't like them much when I first implemented them.  But it is  
> growing on me.
>
> And we need something because the situations where the status icons  
> bleed into the From column, or the Subject bleeds into the  
> Arrival/Date column, are practically unreadable without some sort of  
> column delimiter.  Using ellipses is not a viable solution either  
> (it was my first solution, but it is just about impossible to do  
> dynamically cross-browser).

Can you give an example of column collisions? Until now I've found the  
DIMP message list UI to be pretty ideal. I might add gmail-style  
initial message snippets, but otherwise, it really works for me. The  
grid might grow on my - but right now my reaction is strongly against  
it.

-chuck

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[Michael M Slusarz-2]

Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:

> Can you give an example of column collisions? Until now I've found  
> the DIMP message list UI to be pretty ideal. I might add gmail-style  
> initial message snippets, but otherwise, it really works for me. The  
> grid might grow on my - but right now my reaction is strongly  
> against it.

See attached - 1 example of a subject/arrival collision and 1 example  
of a flags/from collision.  These aren't manufactured/rare examples  
either - they were both in my INBOX.  And this is on a browser with a  
viewport width of 1164 pixels.

We have had grid lines in IMP for forever, presumably for this exact reason.

FYI - the couple of desktop MUA's I looked at (thunderbird, evolution)  
use row shading and ellipses.  As previously mentioned, ellipses is  
not really an option because none of the workarounds for  
text-overflow: ellipsis are realistic for this use case (the  
workarounds for lacking either require boatloads of javascript,  
specific HTML structure, browser-specific hacks, or document-wide  
stylesheet settings).  This is the rare case where IE is better than  
all of the other browsers.

michael

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[Jan Schneider]

Zitat von Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:

> Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>
>> Can you give an example of column collisions? Until now I've found  
>> the DIMP message list UI to be pretty ideal. I might add  
>> gmail-style  initial message snippets, but otherwise, it really  
>> works for me. The  grid might grow on my - but right now my  
>> reaction is strongly  against it.
>
> See attached - 1 example of a subject/arrival collision and 1  
> example  of a flags/from collision.  These aren't manufactured/rare  
> examples  either - they were both in my INBOX.  And this is on a  
> browser with a  viewport width of 1164 pixels.
>
> We have had grid lines in IMP for forever, presumably for this exact reason.
>
> FYI - the couple of desktop MUA's I looked at (thunderbird,  
> evolution)  use row shading and ellipses.  As previously mentioned,  
> ellipses is  not really an option because none of the workarounds  
> for  text-overflow: ellipsis are realistic for this use case (the  
> workarounds for lacking either require boatloads of javascript,  
> specific HTML structure, browser-specific hacks, or document-wide  
> stylesheet settings).  This is the rare case where IE is better than  
>  all of the other browsers.

I agree with Michael. Not being used to the original mailbox design,  
because I don't use DIMP that much, the grid looks pretty straight  
forward to me and resembles the IMP interface. And I also agree that  
it helps with colliding columns.

Jan.

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[Chuck Hagenbuch]

Quoting Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:

> Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>
>> Can you give an example of column collisions? Until now I've found  
>> the DIMP message list UI to be pretty ideal. I might add  
>> gmail-style initial message snippets, but otherwise, it really  
>> works for me. The grid might grow on my - but right now my reaction  
>> is strongly against it.
>
> See attached - 1 example of a subject/arrival collision and 1  
> example of a flags/from collision.  These aren't manufactured/rare  
> examples either - they were both in my INBOX.  And this is on a  
> browser with a viewport width of 1164 pixels.
>
> We have had grid lines in IMP for forever, presumably for this exact reason.
>
> FYI - the couple of desktop MUA's I looked at (thunderbird,  
> evolution) use row shading and ellipses.  As previously mentioned,  
> ellipses is not really an option because none of the workarounds for  
> text-overflow: ellipsis are realistic for this use case (the  
> workarounds for lacking either require boatloads of javascript,  
> specific HTML structure, browser-specific hacks, or document-wide  
> stylesheet settings).  This is the rare case where IE is better than  
> all of the other browsers.

I don't actually think that the examples you provided look that bad. I  
can see that some white space at the end of each column would be  
better, though, at least.

How about I revert the grid lines but ask a designer I work with to  
look at it and see what he can come up with? After a few days I'm more  
used to them, but they still just look so much less elegant to me than  
it did before.

-chuck

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[Michael M Slusarz-2]

Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:

> I don't actually think that the examples you provided look that bad.  
> I can see that some white space at the end of each column would be  
> better, though, at least.
>
> How about I revert the grid lines but ask a designer I work with to  
> look at it and see what he can come up with? After a few days I'm  
> more used to them, but they still just look so much less elegant to  
> me than it did before.

I guess you made this change already - looks like it slipped under my  
commits radar.

After updating, I felt like the viewport looked wrong and was  
difficult to read.  It took me a few pages to realize the grid lines  
had disappeared.  So this passes my #1 UI test - missing it when it is  
gone but not noticing it when it was there.

Unless your UI guy can come up with something better in the very near  
future, I now feel *VERY* strongly that this needs to be put back in.

michael

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[Chuck Hagenbuch]

Quoting Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:

> Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>
>> I don't actually think that the examples you provided look that  
>> bad. I can see that some white space at the end of each column  
>> would be better, though, at least.
>>
>> How about I revert the grid lines but ask a designer I work with to  
>> look at it and see what he can come up with? After a few days I'm  
>> more used to them, but they still just look so much less elegant to  
>> me than it did before.
>
> I guess you made this change already - looks like it slipped under  
> my commits radar.
>
> After updating, I felt like the viewport looked wrong and was  
> difficult to read.  It took me a few pages to realize the grid lines  
> had disappeared.  So this passes my #1 UI test - missing it when it  
> is gone but not noticing it when it was there.
>
> Unless your UI guy can come up with something better in the very  
> near future, I now feel *VERY* strongly that this needs to be put  
> back in.

Okay, but I feel the exact opposite. I miss the lack of lines and  
noticed when they were there. I'll ask Jay, but I don't feel that a  
difference of opinion between you and I is decisive one way or  
another. I feel really strongly about not having them.

-chuck

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[Jan Schneider]

Zitat von Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:

>
> Quoting Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:
>
>> Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>>
>>> I don't actually think that the examples you provided look that  
>>> bad. I can see that some white space at the end of each column  
>>> would be better, though, at least.
>>>
>>> How about I revert the grid lines but ask a designer I work with  
>>> to look at it and see what he can come up with? After a few days  
>>> I'm more used to them, but they still just look so much less  
>>> elegant to me than it did before.
>>
>> I guess you made this change already - looks like it slipped under  
>> my commits radar.
>>
>> After updating, I felt like the viewport looked wrong and was  
>> difficult to read.  It took me a few pages to realize the grid  
>> lines had disappeared.  So this passes my #1 UI test - missing it  
>> when it is gone but not noticing it when it was there.
>>
>> Unless your UI guy can come up with something better in the very  
>> near future, I now feel *VERY* strongly that this needs to be put  
>> back in.
>
> Okay, but I feel the exact opposite. I miss the lack of lines and  
> noticed when they were there. I'll ask Jay, but I don't feel that a  
> difference of opinion between you and I is decisive one way or  
> another. I feel really strongly about not having them.

How about vertical lines only?

Jan.

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[Chuck Hagenbuch]

Quoting Jan Schneider <jan@...>:

> Zitat von Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>
>>
>> Quoting Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:
>>
>>> Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>>>
>>>> I don't actually think that the examples you provided look that  
>>>> bad. I can see that some white space at the end of each column  
>>>> would be better, though, at least.
>>>>
>>>> How about I revert the grid lines but ask a designer I work with  
>>>> to look at it and see what he can come up with? After a few days  
>>>> I'm more used to them, but they still just look so much less  
>>>> elegant to me than it did before.
>>>
>>> I guess you made this change already - looks like it slipped under  
>>> my commits radar.
>>>
>>> After updating, I felt like the viewport looked wrong and was  
>>> difficult to read.  It took me a few pages to realize the grid  
>>> lines had disappeared.  So this passes my #1 UI test - missing it  
>>> when it is gone but not noticing it when it was there.
>>>
>>> Unless your UI guy can come up with something better in the very  
>>> near future, I now feel *VERY* strongly that this needs to be put  
>>> back in.
>>
>> Okay, but I feel the exact opposite. I miss the lack of lines and  
>> noticed when they were there. I'll ask Jay, but I don't feel that a  
>> difference of opinion between you and I is decisive one way or  
>> another. I feel really strongly about not having them.
>
> How about vertical lines only?

Got a mockup? I'd be more inclined to go for only horizontal lines, if  
we need lines. I think using lines to solve the  
columns-running-into-each-other problem is accepting something we  
don't need for lack of a better solution.

-chuck

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[Jan Schneider]

Zitat von Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:

> Quoting Jan Schneider <jan@...>:
>
>> Zitat von Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:
>>>
>>>> Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't actually think that the examples you provided look that  
>>>>> bad. I can see that some white space at the end of each column  
>>>>> would be better, though, at least.
>>>>>
>>>>> How about I revert the grid lines but ask a designer I work with  
>>>>> to look at it and see what he can come up with? After a few days  
>>>>> I'm more used to them, but they still just look so much less  
>>>>> elegant to me than it did before.
>>>>
>>>> I guess you made this change already - looks like it slipped  
>>>> under my commits radar.
>>>>
>>>> After updating, I felt like the viewport looked wrong and was  
>>>> difficult to read.  It took me a few pages to realize the grid  
>>>> lines had disappeared.  So this passes my #1 UI test - missing it  
>>>> when it is gone but not noticing it when it was there.
>>>>
>>>> Unless your UI guy can come up with something better in the very  
>>>> near future, I now feel *VERY* strongly that this needs to be put  
>>>> back in.
>>>
>>> Okay, but I feel the exact opposite. I miss the lack of lines and  
>>> noticed when they were there. I'll ask Jay, but I don't feel that  
>>> a difference of opinion between you and I is decisive one way or  
>>> another. I feel really strongly about not having them.
>>
>> How about vertical lines only?
>
> Got a mockup?

Try what I committed.

Jan.

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[Chuck Hagenbuch]

Quoting Jan Schneider <jan@...>:

> Zitat von Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>
>> Quoting Jan Schneider <jan@...>:
>>
>>> Zitat von Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Quoting Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:
>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't actually think that the examples you provided look that  
>>>>>> bad. I can see that some white space at the end of each column  
>>>>>> would be better, though, at least.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about I revert the grid lines but ask a designer I work  
>>>>>> with to look at it and see what he can come up with? After a  
>>>>>> few days I'm more used to them, but they still just look so  
>>>>>> much less elegant to me than it did before.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess you made this change already - looks like it slipped  
>>>>> under my commits radar.
>>>>>
>>>>> After updating, I felt like the viewport looked wrong and was  
>>>>> difficult to read.  It took me a few pages to realize the grid  
>>>>> lines had disappeared.  So this passes my #1 UI test - missing  
>>>>> it when it is gone but not noticing it when it was there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless your UI guy can come up with something better in the very  
>>>>> near future, I now feel *VERY* strongly that this needs to be  
>>>>> put back in.
>>>>
>>>> Okay, but I feel the exact opposite. I miss the lack of lines and  
>>>> noticed when they were there. I'll ask Jay, but I don't feel that  
>>>> a difference of opinion between you and I is decisive one way or  
>>>> another. I feel really strongly about not having them.
>>>
>>> How about vertical lines only?
>>
>> Got a mockup?
>
> Try what I committed.

That looks okay to me - much better initial reaction than to the full  
grid. I think I'd prefer a bit of whitespace at the right edge of each  
column instead, but for now I can go with this if others like it too.

-chuck

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[Michael M Slusarz-2]

Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:

>>>> How about vertical lines only?
>>>
>>> Got a mockup?
>>
>> Try what I committed.
>
> That looks okay to me - much better initial reaction than to the  
> full grid. I think I'd prefer a bit of whitespace at the right edge  
> of each column instead, but for now I can go with this if others  
> like it too.

Striping doesn't look as bad as I thought, so I've committed code to  
do just that (as mentioned previously, striping is one of the common  
methods that desktop clients use to delineate rows).  Also increased  
the text-indent by a pixel - separates the text a bit more from the  
vertical lines.

michael

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[Jan Schneider]

Zitat von Michael M Slusarz <slusarz@...>:

> Quoting Chuck Hagenbuch <chuck@...>:
>
>>>>> How about vertical lines only?
>>>>
>>>> Got a mockup?
>>>
>>> Try what I committed.
>>
>> That looks okay to me - much better initial reaction than to the  
>> full grid. I think I'd prefer a bit of whitespace at the right edge  
>> of each column instead, but for now I can go with this if others  
>> like it too.
>
> Striping doesn't look as bad as I thought, so I've committed code to  
> do just that (as mentioned previously, striping is one of the common  
> methods that desktop clients use to delineate rows).  Also increased  
> the text-indent by a pixel - separates the text a bit more from the  
> vertical lines.

That looks really confusing. We shouldn't use any striping in the  
mailbox list, there's already enough striping with the different  
colors for replied/important/unread messages.

Jan.

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[Chuck Hagenbuch]

Quoting Jan Schneider <jan@...>:

>> Striping doesn't look as bad as I thought, so I've committed code  
>> to do just that (as mentioned previously, striping is one of the  
>> common methods that desktop clients use to delineate rows).  Also  
>> increased the text-indent by a pixel - separates the text a bit  
>> more from the vertical lines.
>
> That looks really confusing. We shouldn't use any striping in the  
> mailbox list, there's already enough striping with the different  
> colors for replied/important/unread messages.

I agree on Jan with this one.

-chuck

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