Re: [kria] Fwd: New poll for rti_india

[Vikram Simha]

Dear Moderators of RTI Group,
Thanks for this Mail , So you have oputsourced The Group and its Poll and the Messages related to the poll to another Yahoo group. Constantly I am reminding this Group which carries Each and every message in rti_india group virtually clogging in boxes and repeting all and sundry . When i wrote to them these moderators stated that it will deprive them and their group members of Information .
NOW , What are achiving by Posting an Very limited Poll meant for one group along with Messages Related to that poll . Arguably they may say since we are members of this Group , you are Depriving our members of the poll also .
Is this not a blunder .
I hope rti_india group Moderators will think of some method's to ensure our privacy of the poll is retained at least till the Polling period , this is just like prepoll survey

N vikramsimha , Trustee RTI Study Centre &KRIA Katte , #12 Sumeru Sir M N Krishna Rao Road , Basvangudi < Bangalore 560004.

--- On Thu, 29/10/09, Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@...> wrote:


From: Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@...>
Subject: [kria] Fwd: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
To: "kria" <kria@...>
Date: Thursday, 29 October, 2009, 8:29 PM


 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@ yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 29, 2009 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com

Hi all

There are three issues involved in this clause.

1) use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt

2) Use of RTI to victimise honest officers

3) File notings

1. Use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt is very tricky issue, every RTI
application seeking information can be termed as " obstructing working of
Govt" particularly where vested interests of corrupt officers are
involved.How group will define, whether particular issue or information
being sought is obstructing work of Govt or not.I CAN FIND EXECUSES AND
ARGUMENTS IN EVERY APPLICATION UNDER RTI ACT, OBSTRUCTING WORKING OF GOVT.

2. I agree that RTI should not be used to victimise honest officers.

3. File notings are integeral part of decision making disclosure of which
cannot be termed as obstructing working of Govt or victimising honest
officers.

I thing we can discuss three issues seperatelly and seek voting.

Satish
------------ --------- ---------
*From:* "rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com" <rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com>
*To:* rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
*Sent:* Thu, October 29, 2009 1:12:56 AM
*Subject:* [rti_india] New poll for rti_india

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
rti_india group:

I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.

The principle reads as follows:

"vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
allowing access to "file notings"."

VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.

o YES
o NO
o UNDECIDED

To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys?
id=12957245<http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys? id=12957245>

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

















      Keep up with people you care about with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/connectmore

[sarbajitr]

Dear Vickram

You and Satishji have raised some very important issues which I shall attempt to address.

1) The latest "poll" is for voting upon by members of this group only. No "outsourcing". If our members are concerned enough to mobilise votes for their POV it is a healthy development and ensures wider acceptability of the final result /outcome. The reason that polled votes are visible immediately after a member casts his vote is to ensure transparency in the process AND to give an option to change his mind till the poll closes. I can assure you that PRIVACY is maintained and your own vote is secret.

2) This group has evolved (over time) into a "national" group focussed on "Central" RTI. We warmly welcome constant interaction with other Yahoo groups which focus on State issues and RTI implementation there.

3) I think it is very positive if a few important mails from this group are forwarded to other Yahoo RTI groups. I agree that it should not clog up email boxes of members there, but at the end of the day it is for those Moderators (like Ms K Chamraj) to control their group's postings.

4) I agree with Mr Satish that there are actually 3 issues contained in that 1 principle. The question being polled now is simply to discard the principle entirely or to accept it entirely. I am reminded of an old legal proverb "False in one means false in all". Simply put, this means everyone may vote for deletion of the entire principle even if they disagree with just one of its components.

Sarbajit

--- In rti_india@..., Vikram Simha <vikramsimha54@...> wrote:

>
> Dear Moderators of RTI Group,
> Thanks for this Mail , So you have oputsourced The Group and its Poll and the Messages related to the poll to another Yahoo group. Constantly I am reminding this Group which carries Each and every message in rti_india group virtually clogging in boxes and repeting all and sundry . When i wrote to them these moderators stated that it will deprive them and their group members of Information .
> NOW , What are achiving by Posting an Very limited Poll meant for one group along with Messages Related to that poll . Arguably they may say since we are members of this Group , you are Depriving our members of the poll also .
> Is this not a blunder .
> I hope rti_india group Moderators will think of some method's to ensure our privacy of the poll is retained at least till the Polling period , this is just like prepoll survey
>
> N vikramsimha , Trustee RTI Study Centre &KRIA Katte , #12 Sumeru Sir M N Krishna Rao Road , Basvangudi < Bangalore 560004.
>
> --- On Thu, 29/10/09, Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@...>
> Subject: [kria] Fwd: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> To: "kria" <kria@...>
> Date: Thursday, 29 October, 2009, 8:29 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@ yahoo.com>
> Date: Oct 29, 2009 7:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
>
> Hi all
>
> There are three issues involved in this clause.
>
> 1) use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt
>
> 2) Use of RTI to victimise honest officers
>
> 3) File notings
>
> 1. Use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt is very tricky issue, every RTI
> application seeking information can be termed as " obstructing working of
> Govt" particularly where vested interests of corrupt officers are
> involved.How group will define, whether particular issue or information
> being sought is obstructing work of Govt or not.I CAN FIND EXECUSES AND
> ARGUMENTS IN EVERY APPLICATION UNDER RTI ACT, OBSTRUCTING WORKING OF GOVT.
>
> 2. I agree that RTI should not be used to victimise honest officers.
>
> 3. File notings are integeral part of decision making disclosure of which
> cannot be termed as obstructing working of Govt or victimising honest
> officers.
>
> I thing we can discuss three issues seperatelly and seek voting.
>
> Satish
> ------------ --------- ---------
> *From:* "rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com" <rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com>
> *To:* rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> *Sent:* Thu, October 29, 2009 1:12:56 AM
> *Subject:* [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
>
> Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> rti_india group:
>
> I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
>
> The principle reads as follows:
>
> "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> allowing access to "file notings"."
>
> VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
>
> o YES
> o NO
> o UNDECIDED
>
> To vote, please visit the following web page:
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys?
> id=12957245<http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys? id=12957245>
>
> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
> web site listed above.
>
> Thanks!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       Keep up with people you care about with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/connectmore
>

[ashish kr1965]

Dear Sarbajit and other group members,

I do not concur that the 6th principle is made up of 3 parts or that
it can be separated from the other 5 either.

There are numerous classes of information which can be accessed by RTI
method which does not come in the way of  a Government's functioning.
What this principle really stands for is to exhort the citizen RTI
clients

a) to be patriotic, ** AND **
b) not to obstruct working of Government by allowing access to file
notings of honest and efficient officers which ensures their
victimisation (transfers / media / trumped up charge sheets etc.) as
the consequence..

Ashish

> > "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> > by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> > Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> > allowing access to "file notings"."




--- In rti_india@..., "sroy1947" <sroy1947@...> wrote:

>
> Dear Vickram
>
> You and Satishji have raised some very important issues which I shall attempt to address.
>
> 1) The latest "poll" is for voting upon by members of this group only. No "outsourcing". If our members are concerned enough to mobilise votes for their POV it is a healthy development and ensures wider acceptability of the final result /outcome. The reason that polled votes are visible immediately after a member casts his vote is to ensure transparency in the process AND to give an option to change his mind till the poll closes. I can assure you that PRIVACY is maintained and your own vote is secret.
>
> 2) This group has evolved (over time) into a "national" group focussed on "Central" RTI. We warmly welcome constant interaction with other Yahoo groups which focus on State issues and RTI implementation there.
>
> 3) I think it is very positive if a few important mails from this group are forwarded to other Yahoo RTI groups. I agree that it should not clog up email boxes of members there, but at the end of the day it is for those Moderators (like Ms K Chamraj) to control their group's postings.
>
> 4) I agree with Mr Satish that there are actually 3 issues contained in that 1 principle. The question being polled now is simply to discard the principle entirely or to accept it entirely. I am reminded of an old legal proverb "False in one means false in all". Simply put, this means everyone may vote for deletion of the entire principle even if they disagree with just one of its components.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> --- In rti_india@..., Vikram Simha <vikramsimha54@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Moderators of RTI Group,
> > Thanks for this Mail , So you have oputsourced The Group and its Poll and the Messages related to the poll to another Yahoo group. Constantly I am reminding this Group which carries Each and every message in rti_india group virtually clogging in boxes and repeting all and sundry . When i wrote to them these moderators stated that it will deprive them and their group members of Information .
> > NOW , What are achiving by Posting an Very limited Poll meant for one group along with Messages Related to that poll . Arguably they may say since we are members of this Group , you are Depriving our members of the poll also .
> > Is this not a blunder .
> > I hope rti_india group Moderators will think of some method's to ensure our privacy of the poll is retained at least till the Polling period , this is just like prepoll survey
> >
> > N vikramsimha , Trustee RTI Study Centre &KRIA Katte , #12 Sumeru Sir M N Krishna Rao Road , Basvangudi < Bangalore 560004.
> >
> > --- On Thu, 29/10/09, Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@>
> > Subject: [kria] Fwd: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> > To: "kria" <kria@...>
> > Date: Thursday, 29 October, 2009, 8:29 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@ yahoo.com>
> > Date: Oct 29, 2009 7:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> > To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > There are three issues involved in this clause.
> >
> > 1) use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt
> >
> > 2) Use of RTI to victimise honest officers
> >
> > 3) File notings
> >
> > 1. Use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt is very tricky issue, every RTI
> > application seeking information can be termed as " obstructing working of
> > Govt" particularly where vested interests of corrupt officers are
> > involved.How group will define, whether particular issue or information
> > being sought is obstructing work of Govt or not.I CAN FIND EXECUSES AND
> > ARGUMENTS IN EVERY APPLICATION UNDER RTI ACT, OBSTRUCTING WORKING OF GOVT.
> >
> > 2. I agree that RTI should not be used to victimise honest officers.
> >
> > 3. File notings are integeral part of decision making disclosure of which
> > cannot be termed as obstructing working of Govt or victimising honest
> > officers.
> >
> > I thing we can discuss three issues seperatelly and seek voting.
> >
> > Satish
> > ------------ --------- ---------
> > *From:* "rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com" <rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > *To:* rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> > *Sent:* Thu, October 29, 2009 1:12:56 AM
> > *Subject:* [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> >
> > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> > rti_india group:
> >
> > I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
> >
> > The principle reads as follows:
> >
> > "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> > by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> > Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> > allowing access to "file notings"."
> >
> > VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
> >
> > o YES
> > o NO
> > o UNDECIDED
> >
> > To vote, please visit the following web page:
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys?
> > id=12957245<http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys? id=12957245>
> >
> > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
> > web site listed above.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >       Keep up with people you care about with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/connectmore
> >
>

[Satish Kumar Kapoor]

Dear Ashish and other group members,

There is no denial that RTI act should not be used to obstruct the work of  Govt, but how to classify?, some times in larger public interest it may become necessary to "obstruct Govt work", how you  can say the person seeking information is not patriotic?, Every citizen knows about corrupt practices  in functioning of Govt. Take an example of Ms Mayawati, if some one seeks information about public funds being wasted for vested interests ,  Will you term it as act obstructing function of Govt ?

Satish




________________________________
From: ashish kr1965 <ashishkr1965@...>
To: rti_india@...
Sent: Fri, October 30, 2009 1:05:03 AM
Subject: Re: [kria] Fwd: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india

 
Dear Sarbajit and other group members,

I do not concur that the 6th principle is made up of 3 parts or that
it can be separated from the other 5 either.

There are numerous classes of information which can be accessed by RTI
method which does not come in the way of  a Government's functioning.
What this principle really stands for is to exhort the citizen RTI
clients

a) to be patriotic, ** AND **
b) not to obstruct working of Government by allowing access to file
notings of honest and efficient officers which ensures their
victimisation (transfers / media / trumped up charge sheets etc.) as
the consequence. .

Ashish

> > "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> > by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> > Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> > allowing access to "file notings"."

--- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, "sroy1947" <sroy1947@.. .> wrote:

>
> Dear Vickram
>
> You and Satishji have raised some very important issues which I shall attempt to address.
>
> 1) The latest "poll" is for voting upon by members of this group only. No "outsourcing" . If our members are concerned enough to mobilise votes for their POV it is a healthy development and ensures wider acceptability of the final result /outcome. The reason that polled votes are visible immediately after a member casts his vote is to ensure transparency in the process AND to give an option to change his mind till the poll closes. I can assure you that PRIVACY is maintained and your own vote is secret.
>
> 2) This group has evolved (over time) into a "national" group focussed on "Central" RTI. We warmly welcome constant interaction with other Yahoo groups which focus on State issues and RTI implementation there.
>
> 3) I think it is very positive if a few important mails from this group are forwarded to other Yahoo RTI groups. I agree that it should not clog up email boxes of members there, but at the end of the day it is for those Moderators (like Ms K Chamraj) to control their group's postings.
>
> 4) I agree with Mr Satish that there are actually 3 issues contained in that 1 principle. The question being polled now is simply to discard the principle entirely or to accept it entirely. I am reminded of an old legal proverb "False in one means false in all". Simply put, this means everyone may vote for deletion of the entire principle even if they disagree with just one of its components.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> --- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, Vikram Simha <vikramsimha54@ > wrote:
> >
> > Dear Moderators of RTI Group,
> > Thanks for this Mail , So you have oputsourced The Group and its Poll and the Messages related to the poll to another Yahoo group. Constantly I am reminding this Group which carries Each and every message in rti_india group virtually clogging in boxes and repeting all and sundry . When i wrote to them these moderators stated that it will deprive them and their group members of Information .
> > NOW , What are achiving by Posting an Very limited Poll meant for one group along with Messages Related to that poll . Arguably they may say since we are members of this Group , you are Depriving our members of the poll also .
> > Is this not a blunder .
> > I hope rti_india group Moderators will think of some method's to ensure our privacy of the poll is retained at least till the Polling period , this is just like prepoll survey
> >
> > N vikramsimha , Trustee RTI Study Centre &KRIA Katte , #12 Sumeru Sir M N Krishna Rao Road , Basvangudi < Bangalore 560004.
> >
> > --- On Thu, 29/10/09, Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@>
> > Subject: [kria] Fwd: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> > To: "kria" <kria@yahoogroups. com>
> > Date: Thursday, 29 October, 2009, 8:29 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@ yahoo.com>
> > Date: Oct 29, 2009 7:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> > To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > There are three issues involved in this clause.
> >
> > 1) use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt
> >
> > 2) Use of RTI to victimise honest officers
> >
> > 3) File notings
> >
> > 1. Use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt is very tricky issue, every RTI
> > application seeking information can be termed as " obstructing working of
> > Govt" particularly where vested interests of corrupt officers are
> > involved.How group will define, whether particular issue or information
> > being sought is obstructing work of Govt or not.I CAN FIND EXECUSES AND
> > ARGUMENTS IN EVERY APPLICATION UNDER RTI ACT, OBSTRUCTING WORKING OF GOVT.
> >
> > 2. I agree that RTI should not be used to victimise honest officers.
> >
> > 3. File notings are integeral part of decision making disclosure of which
> > cannot be termed as obstructing working of Govt or victimising honest
> > officers.
> >
> > I thing we can discuss three issues seperatelly and seek voting.
> >
> > Satish
> > ------------ --------- ---------
> > *From:* "rti_india@yahoogro u ps.com" <rti_india@yahoogro u ps.com>
> > *To:* rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> > *Sent:* Thu, October 29, 2009 1:12:56 AM
> > *Subject:* [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> >
> > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> > rti_india group:
> >
> > I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
> >
> > The principle reads as follows:
> >
> > "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> > by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> > Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> > allowing access to "file notings"."
> >
> > VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
> >
> > o YES
> > o NO
> > o UNDECIDED
> >
> > To vote, please visit the following web page:
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys?
> > id=12957245<http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys? id=12957245>
> >
> > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
> > web site listed above.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >       Keep up with people you care about with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview. mail.yahoo. com/connectmore
> >
>

   


     

[ysingh rajput]

Dear friends


6th preinciple is is beyond my comprehension - the wordings are confusing. Who will decide who is patriotic and who is not? Obstruction of Govt Functioning is obscure and again and undefined - anything could be termed as obstruction and information denied. In other words it means blanket curtain- then what is the need of RTI Act. Such philosophy is good for intellectual discussions but serves no purpose for the common man. There are many treatise  to define 'wider public interest'. Adding more words would simply provide PIOs many excuses to deny information. Similarly file noting being in public domain provide self deterrent and reduce corruption. Keeping it under veil of  secrecy would simply lead us to the pre-RTI days.

Y Singh Rajput
Vadodara
30/10/09



________________________________
From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...>
To: rti_india@...
Sent: Fri, 30 October, 2009 9:12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [kria] Fwd: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india

 
Dear Ashish and other group members,

There is no denial that RTI act should not be used to obstruct the work of  Govt, but how to classify?, some times in larger public interest it may become necessary to "obstruct Govt work", how you  can say the person seeking information is not patriotic?, Every citizen knows about corrupt practices  in functioning of Govt. Take an example of Ms Mayawati, if some one seeks information about public funds being wasted for vested interests ,  Will you term it as act obstructing function of Govt ?

Satish




________________________________
From: ashish kr1965 <ashishkr1965@ yahoo.com>
To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, October 30, 2009 1:05:03 AM
Subject: Re: [kria] Fwd: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india

 
Dear Sarbajit and other group members,

I do not concur that the 6th principle is made up of 3 parts or that
it can be separated from the other 5 either.

There are numerous classes of information which can be accessed by RTI
method which does not come in the way of  a Government's functioning.
What this principle really stands for is to exhort the citizen RTI
clients

a) to be patriotic, ** AND **
b) not to obstruct working of Government by allowing access to file
notings of honest and efficient officers which ensures their
victimisation (transfers / media / trumped up charge sheets etc.) as
the consequence. .

Ashish

> > "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> > by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> > Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> > allowing access to "file notings"."

--- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, "sroy1947" <sroy1947@.. .> wrote:

>
> Dear Vickram
>
> You and Satishji have raised some very important issues which I shall attempt to address.
>
> 1) The latest "poll" is for voting upon by members of this group only. No "outsourcing" . If our members are concerned enough to mobilise votes for their POV it is a healthy development and ensures wider acceptability of the final result /outcome. The reason that polled votes are visible immediately after a member casts his vote is to ensure transparency in the process AND to give an option to change his mind till the poll closes. I can assure you that PRIVACY is maintained and your own vote is secret.
>
> 2) This group has evolved (over time) into a "national" group focussed on "Central" RTI. We warmly welcome constant interaction with other Yahoo groups which focus on State issues and RTI implementation there.
>
> 3) I think it is very positive if a few important mails from this group are forwarded to other Yahoo RTI groups. I agree that it should not clog up email boxes of members there, but at the end of the day it is for those Moderators (like Ms K Chamraj) to control their group's postings.
>
> 4) I agree with Mr Satish that there are actually 3 issues contained in that 1 principle. The question being polled now is simply to discard the principle entirely or to accept it entirely. I am reminded of an old legal proverb "False in one means false in all". Simply put, this means everyone may vote for deletion of the entire principle even if they disagree with just one of its components.
>
> Sarbajit
>
> --- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, Vikram Simha <vikramsimha54@ > wrote:
> >
> > Dear Moderators of RTI Group,
> > Thanks for this Mail , So you have oputsourced The Group and its Poll and the Messages related to the poll to another Yahoo group. Constantly I am reminding this Group which carries Each and every message in rti_india group virtually clogging in boxes and repeting all and sundry . When i wrote to them these moderators stated that it will deprive them and their group members of Information .
> > NOW , What are achiving by Posting an Very limited Poll meant for one group along with Messages Related to that poll . Arguably they may say since we are members of this Group , you are Depriving our members of the poll also .
> > Is this not a blunder .
> > I hope rti_india group Moderators will think of some method's to ensure our privacy of the poll is retained at least till the Polling period , this is just like prepoll survey
> >
> > N vikramsimha , Trustee RTI Study Centre &KRIA Katte , #12 Sumeru Sir M N Krishna Rao Road , Basvangudi < Bangalore 560004.
> >
> > --- On Thu, 29/10/09, Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@>
> > Subject: [kria] Fwd: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> > To: "kria" <kria@yahoogroups. com>
> > Date: Thursday, 29 October, 2009, 8:29 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@ yahoo.com>
> > Date: Oct 29, 2009 7:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> > To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > There are three issues involved in this clause.
> >
> > 1) use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt
> >
> > 2) Use of RTI to victimise honest officers
> >
> > 3) File notings
> >
> > 1. Use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt is very tricky issue, every RTI
> > application seeking information can be termed as " obstructing working of
> > Govt" particularly where vested interests of corrupt officers are
> > involved.How group will define, whether particular issue or information
> > being sought is obstructing work of Govt or not.I CAN FIND EXECUSES AND
> > ARGUMENTS IN EVERY APPLICATION UNDER RTI ACT, OBSTRUCTING WORKING OF GOVT.
> >
> > 2. I agree that RTI should not be used to victimise honest officers.
> >
> > 3. File notings are integeral part of decision making disclosure of which
> > cannot be termed as obstructing working of Govt or victimising honest
> > officers.
> >
> > I thing we can discuss three issues seperatelly and seek voting.
> >
> > Satish
> > ------------ --------- ---------
> > *From:* "rti_india@yahoogro u ps.com" <rti_india@yahoogro u ps.com>
> > *To:* rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> > *Sent:* Thu, October 29, 2009 1:12:56 AM
> > *Subject:* [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> >
> > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> > rti_india group:
> >
> > I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
> >
> > The principle reads as follows:
> >
> > "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> > by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> > Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> > allowing access to "file notings"."
> >
> > VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
> >
> > o YES
> > o NO
> > o UNDECIDED
> >
> > To vote, please visit the following web page:
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys?
> > id=12957245<http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys? id=12957245>
> >
> > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
> > web site listed above.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >       Keep up with people you care about with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview. mail.yahoo. com/connectmore
> >
>

   


      Now, send attachments up to 25MB with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/photos

[sarbajitr]

Hi

If you understand the 6th principle then vote as per your conscience.

If you dont understand it then please either abstain from voting or vote YES (to delete it) as you deem fit.

PS: To reach enlightenment for the 6th principle you have to be adept at the preceding 5 or else you will not understand it.

Sarbajit

--- In rti_india@..., ysingh rajput <ysingh_rajput@...> wrote:

>
> Dear friends
>
>
> 6th preinciple is is beyond my comprehension - the wordings are confusing. Who will decide who is patriotic and who is not? Obstruction of Govt Functioning is obscure and again and undefined - anything could be termed as obstruction and information denied. In other words it means blanket curtain- then what is the need of RTI Act. Such philosophy is good for intellectual discussions but serves no purpose for the common man. There are many treatise  to define 'wider public interest'. Adding more words would simply provide PIOs many excuses to deny information. Similarly file noting being in public domain provide self deterrent and reduce corruption. Keeping it under veil of  secrecy would simply lead us to the pre-RTI days.
>
> Y Singh Rajput
> Vadodara
> 30/10/09
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@...>
> To: rti_india@...
> Sent: Fri, 30 October, 2009 9:12:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [kria] Fwd: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
>
>  
> Dear Ashish and other group members,
>
> There is no denial that RTI act should not be used to obstruct the work of  Govt, but how to classify?, some times in larger public interest it may become necessary to "obstruct Govt work", how you  can say the person seeking information is not patriotic?, Every citizen knows about corrupt practices  in functioning of Govt. Take an example of Ms Mayawati, if some one seeks information about public funds being wasted for vested interests ,  Will you term it as act obstructing function of Govt ?
>
> Satish
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ashish kr1965 <ashishkr1965@ yahoo.com>
> To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Fri, October 30, 2009 1:05:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [kria] Fwd: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
>
>  
> Dear Sarbajit and other group members,
>
> I do not concur that the 6th principle is made up of 3 parts or that
> it can be separated from the other 5 either.
>
> There are numerous classes of information which can be accessed by RTI
> method which does not come in the way of  a Government's functioning.
> What this principle really stands for is to exhort the citizen RTI
> clients
>
> a) to be patriotic, ** AND **
> b) not to obstruct working of Government by allowing access to file
> notings of honest and efficient officers which ensures their
> victimisation (transfers / media / trumped up charge sheets etc.) as
> the consequence. .
>
> Ashish
>
> > > "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> > > by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> > > Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> > > allowing access to "file notings"."
>
> --- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, "sroy1947" <sroy1947@ .> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Vickram
> >
> > You and Satishji have raised some very important issues which I shall attempt to address.
> >
> > 1) The latest "poll" is for voting upon by members of this group only. No "outsourcing" . If our members are concerned enough to mobilise votes for their POV it is a healthy development and ensures wider acceptability of the final result /outcome. The reason that polled votes are visible immediately after a member casts his vote is to ensure transparency in the process AND to give an option to change his mind till the poll closes. I can assure you that PRIVACY is maintained and your own vote is secret.
> >
> > 2) This group has evolved (over time) into a "national" group focussed on "Central" RTI. We warmly welcome constant interaction with other Yahoo groups which focus on State issues and RTI implementation there.
> >
> > 3) I think it is very positive if a few important mails from this group are forwarded to other Yahoo RTI groups. I agree that it should not clog up email boxes of members there, but at the end of the day it is for those Moderators (like Ms K Chamraj) to control their group's postings.
> >
> > 4) I agree with Mr Satish that there are actually 3 issues contained in that 1 principle. The question being polled now is simply to discard the principle entirely or to accept it entirely. I am reminded of an old legal proverb "False in one means false in all". Simply put, this means everyone may vote for deletion of the entire principle even if they disagree with just one of its components.
> >
> > Sarbajit
> >
> > --- In rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com, Vikram Simha <vikramsimha54@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Moderators of RTI Group,
> > > Thanks for this Mail , So you have oputsourced The Group and its Poll and the Messages related to the poll to another Yahoo group. Constantly I am reminding this Group which carries Each and every message in rti_india group virtually clogging in boxes and repeting all and sundry . When i wrote to them these moderators stated that it will deprive them and their group members of Information .
> > > NOW , What are achiving by Posting an Very limited Poll meant for one group along with Messages Related to that poll . Arguably they may say since we are members of this Group , you are Depriving our members of the poll also .
> > > Is this not a blunder .
> > > I hope rti_india group Moderators will think of some method's to ensure our privacy of the poll is retained at least till the Polling period , this is just like prepoll survey
> > >
> > > N vikramsimha , Trustee RTI Study Centre &KRIA Katte , #12 Sumeru Sir M N Krishna Rao Road , Basvangudi < Bangalore 560004.
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 29/10/09, Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Kathyayini Chamaraj <kchamaraj@>
> > > Subject: [kria] Fwd: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> > > To: "kria" <kria@yahoogroups. com>
> > > Date: Thursday, 29 October, 2009, 8:29 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > From: Satish Kumar Kapoor <kapoorsatish@ yahoo.com>
> > > Date: Oct 29, 2009 7:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> > > To: rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> > >
> > > Hi all
> > >
> > > There are three issues involved in this clause.
> > >
> > > 1) use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt
> > >
> > > 2) Use of RTI to victimise honest officers
> > >
> > > 3) File notings
> > >
> > > 1. Use of RTI to obstruct working of Govt is very tricky issue, every RTI
> > > application seeking information can be termed as " obstructing working of
> > > Govt" particularly where vested interests of corrupt officers are
> > > involved.How group will define, whether particular issue or information
> > > being sought is obstructing work of Govt or not.I CAN FIND EXECUSES AND
> > > ARGUMENTS IN EVERY APPLICATION UNDER RTI ACT, OBSTRUCTING WORKING OF GOVT.
> > >
> > > 2. I agree that RTI should not be used to victimise honest officers.
> > >
> > > 3. File notings are integeral part of decision making disclosure of which
> > > cannot be termed as obstructing working of Govt or victimising honest
> > > officers.
> > >
> > > I thing we can discuss three issues seperatelly and seek voting.
> > >
> > > Satish
> > > ------------ --------- ---------
> > > *From:* "rti_india@yahoogro u ps.com" <rti_india@yahoogro u ps.com>
> > > *To:* rti_india@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > *Sent:* Thu, October 29, 2009 1:12:56 AM
> > > *Subject:* [rti_india] New poll for rti_india
> > >
> > > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> > > rti_india group:
> > >
> > > I vote to delete principle 6 from this group's Code for Ethical RTIers.
> > >
> > > The principle reads as follows:
> > >
> > > "vi) To appreciate that the "Right to Information" ought not to be used
> > > by patriotic citizens so as to obstruct the working of their
> > > Government, or to victimise honest and efficient officers etc. by
> > > allowing access to "file notings"."
> > >
> > > VOTE: YES to delete this clause, NO to retain it, UNDECIDED if no opinion.
> > >
> > > o YES
> > > o NO
> > > o UNDECIDED
> > >
> > > To vote, please visit the following web page:
> > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys?
> > > id=12957245<http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rti_ india/surveys? id=12957245>
> > >
> > > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> > > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
> > > web site listed above.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >       Keep up with people you care about with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview. mail.yahoo. com/connectmore
> > >
> >
>
>
>    
>
>
>       Now, send attachments up to 25MB with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/photos
>