Re: [scala] Re: Move to scala-debate. Now. ("Library Change Request")

[Jorge Ortiz-3]

I think there's been a series of misunderstandings in this thread.

The Scala community has, historically, been very welcoming of newcomers. Martin himself sets the example by taking time to answer newbie questions on the mailing list. There are certainly enough other people on the list to answer questions, but it speaks to Martin's dedication to the community and to newcomers that he takes some of his own time to answer them. Many other experienced Scala folks also answer questions on the mailing lists. Paul is very frequently one of those people, friendly and willing to help newcomers, not just on the mailing list, but also on the #scala IRC channel. And those are only minor parts of Paul's contributions to the Scala community. If you search through Trac tickets closed or commented by "extempore", you'll get an idea of how much time Paul spends improving Scala. Paul is undoubtedly the most valuable contributor to Scala outside of EPFL.

Now, Paul made a comment on the previous thread which some people took to be dismissive of feedback from newcomers. Knowing Paul, his willigness to help newbies, and his general friendliness to members of the Scala community, new and old, I don't think it was Paul's intention to be dismissive of newcomers.

The Scala community is and always has been open to newcomers and new criticisms. I truly hope none of this has made anyone feel unwelcome or unappreciated, because that's not what I've witnessed on the mailing lists and elsewhere in the community practically every single day.

Now here's a cute kitty: http://www.purlescence.co.uk/cafe/knitted_kitteh.jpg

--j

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 1:54 AM, Stefane Fermigier <sf@...> wrote:

Alexy,

I've been asked by several people (very nicely, I must add) to leave this thread alone, and now you're asking me to do the opposite, and publicly so (taking hundreds of "silent subscribers" as witness), so I'm very confused.

So here is all I want to say:

1. I sincerely apologize to Paul if he took one of my remarks personally, I was really speaking in general and didn't want to upset anybody in particular.

2. I stand by my first point: how you name things is important and must be consistent. Several people have agreed with me (or the other way around), some have expressed the opinion that this was really secondary and I don't agree with them.

As an example, I have worked for year with a framework, Zope, where 2 or 3 different naming patterns had been used over the year, and, for instance, there were even two slightliy different methods named something as "do_something" and "doSomething": of course I used the wrong one one day, and lost one day chasing the bug afterwards.

OTOH: I was only speaking generally, and I certainly don't consider myself in a position to comment on a particular change to the Scala library. 

3. I also stand my second point: it's important to listen to beginners if you want your language to become "the next Java", because the only way to do so is to attract more and more beginners.

OK, maybe "becoming the next Java" is not the goal, but even to become midly successful (ala Python, Ruby, etc.), Scala still has to grow its user base 100x or 1000x, hence care a lot about newcomers.

And I can add, after reading your comment, that this has nothing to do "political correctness".

4. And I stand around my third point: You can have a geek community which is friendly or respectful to newcomers, the Python community I remember being the perfect example: all of the top Python hackers (Guido van Rossum, Time Peters, Alex Martelli, etc.) had an entertaining sense of humor (each one with his own style), but I don't remember them ever deriding or even being sarcastic to a beginner.

So I specially disagree with your point that every geek community should look like Slashdot, for which I have very little respect.

  S.

PS: I only sent 3 messages (you sent 4, for instance) in a 76 messages thread, so I don't understand why you're targeting me specially as the one making the "nonsense".

On Jul 25, 2009, at 6:47 AM, Alexy Khrabrov wrote:

Stefane -- first of all, you owe an apology to Paul, who works around the clock on the compiler and supports all newcomers wholeheartedly on #scala.  Second, you owe an apology to the hundreds of silent subscribers of this list for keeping up with this nonsense.  Third, several people like you who joined this thread without doing any homework should really go RTFM.  GIYF.  RTFD.

If any of you people bothered to google the info, look at the source, and plain take a few minutes to see who the contributors are, what the issues are, spent a few minutes on scala-lang.org, we wouldn't have to observe this colossal waste of time and look the other way.  Now every community suffers from their share of people with ODD -- oppositional disobedience disorder or mistrust of any authority; this is not the place to express those traits.  There're always people who are pedantic beyond reason, especially in a programmers' community.  But it's a meritocracy, not a mutual admiration society, so there's also counterbalance.  Although some of the original comments are not a warm and fuzzy responses, this is a geeks' list -- cf. /.  And to a false political correctness which makes any sarcasm risky but any whining OK, I say: bullshit.  Get a grip.  Do your homework, experiment, take some time to ponder, but if you want to cut corners, and otherwise, be nice to those who do the work.  Try to learn what the locals mean -- they may have their own style, irony, their own way to be effective; respect that.  It's incumbent upon the newcomers to learn the terrain, not for the terrain to spoon to the newcomers.  True for any communal endeavor.  Simple as that.

Cheers,

Alexy

--

Stefane Fermigier, Founder and Chairman, Nuxeo

Open Source, Java EE based, Enterprise Content Management (ECM)

Web: http://www.nuxeo.com/ - Tel: [phone]

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[Ismael Juma]

Thanks for this message, Jorge.

I'd like to add a couple of replies to Stefane's message.

> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 1:54 AM, Stefane Fermigier <sf <at> nuxeo.com> wrote:
> 1. I sincerely apologize to Paul if he took one of my remarks personally,
> I was really speaking in general and didn't want to upset anybody in
> particular.

I am happy to see this. I was a bit puzzled that you were asking for respect and
friendliness while at the same time saying:

"It takes only one rotten apple to corrupt a bunch."

These things have to go both ways.

> 4. And I stand around my third point: You can have a geek community which is
> friendly or respectful to newcomers, the Python community I remember being
> the perfect example

It's funny that you say that. Last week we had someone come to #scala and tell
us about his bad experiences in the #python channel and how #scala was much
friendlier. The truth is that these things vary and I would bet that you can
find isolated cases in _all_ of these communities where someone felt unhappy
about how they were treated.

The big picture is more important.
 
> PS: I only sent 3 messages (you sent 4, for instance) in a 76 messages
> thread, so I don't understand why you're targeting me specially as the one
> making the "nonsense".

I think the apple comment I quoted previously and the other message where you
claimed to be "under attack" are partly the reason.

Best,
Ismael