Re: [wp-pro] Discussion: 'Acceptable' and 'Unacceptable' Posting Behavior On This List

[Mike Schinkel-5]

> There seems to be a need for an email list that offers support to  
> WordPress users, and where people can ask WP questions and get  
> answers. I know there are the forums, but forums aren't for  
> everybody. I personally am not a fan of forums, while I do find that  
> the various email lists that I'm on offer a lot of value. A great  
> example is the WordPress Israel Google Group (http://groups.google.com/group/wpheb 
> ). It's in Hebrew which obviously limits the audience, but the  
> activity there is incredibly helpful and I always feel like it's a  
> shame a similar group doesn't exist in English.

I strongly agree.  +1.

-Mike Schinkel
WordPress Custom Plugins
http://mikeschinkel.com/custom-wordpress-plugins/



On Jun 28, 2009, at 7:50 AM, Miriam Schwab wrote:

> I hope I don't get flamed for suggesting this, but I've been  
> thinking about this issue for a while. There seems to be a need for  
> an email list that offers support to WordPress users, and where  
> people can ask WP questions and get answers. I know there are the  
> forums, but forums aren't for everybody. I personally am not a fan  
> of forums, while I do find that the various email lists that I'm on  
> offer a lot of value. A great example is the WordPress Israel Google  
> Group (http://groups.google.com/group/wpheb). It's in Hebrew which  
> obviously limits the audience, but the activity there is incredibly  
> helpful and I always feel like it's a shame a similar group doesn't  
> exist in English.
>
> So...ages ago I set up the following Yahoo Group: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/wpgarage/ 
>  (named after my WordPress Garage blog). It has a whopping two  
> members and no activity because I never did anything with it. But  
> maybe it can become a worthwhile resource, and also a place to send  
> all the people who end up here with WP development questions.
>
> Or not. Whatever you guys think. But if some of you want to join and  
> see how it goes, it would be great to have you :)
>
> Miriam
>
> --------------------------------------
> Miriam Schwab
> illuminea marketing & media | www.illuminea.com
> http://wordpressgarage.com
> mschwab@...
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:46 AM, Made of These Studio <made.of.these@...
> > wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> This might not be the right place to post this message to start a  
> discussion, but I couldn't figure of a better/more likely place to  
> start it.
>
> So please, if I posted in the wrong place and there's a better  
> place, PLEASE let me know and direct me there.  My intention is to  
> start a discussion and get things cleared up and confirmed for both  
> the older WP pro vets here and the newer incoming people.
>
> After the more recent rash of people posting to the list asking for  
> nonpaid help (and help that one can/should get in the forums):
>
> The question for discussion is:
>
> What IS and IS NOT acceptable/supported posting behavior to this list?
>
> What are the guidelines for signatures in posts (if there are even  
> guidelines to begin with)?
>
> What SORTS of posts are okay and what are not?
>
> Both answers seem to be pretty obvious (to me, anyways), but maybe  
> we could all use a one-shot clarification after all the non-wp pro  
> postings we've gotten lately.
>
> In regards to ideas about deterring the off-topic posters from  
> posting to this list or blacklisting them, maybe there really needs  
> to be more steps involved in the signing up process for this list  
> which includes a general overview on what is and isn't accepted on  
> this list.  Currently as far as I know, the sign-up process for this  
> list has no such thing.  If there's a general overview guidelines  
> thing pre-signup, then we on the list can politely point misdirected  
> users to the overview notice and then to the support forum and if  
> said person(s) don't want to 'follow the rules' then it will be  
> easier for us as whole to guide them out of the list.
>
> Also, another issue that might be contributing to our influx of  
> misdirected users is that I know that there are people on both  
> the .org and .com WP support forums who have pointed users to our  
> mailing list without explaining that the list is specifically to  
> seek out WP pros to HIRE with compensation.
>
> If users who have been misinformed by other users or a simple lack  
> of appropriate information are sent our way and we direct them back/
> elsewhere/send them packing, that's also a poor reflection on the WP  
> community as a whole in my opinion (but it just might be my own  
> personal opinion).
>
> So... yeah.
>
> What does everyone think?
>
> Right place or wrong place to discuss this?
>
> Anyone have other ideas or suggestions for tackling this issue?
>
> Did I just make a fool of myself? ;)
>
> J/K... sort of.
>
> Hope everyone's having a great Friday!
>
> ~ Valen
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-pro mailing list
> wp-pro@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-pro
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-pro mailing list
> wp-pro@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-pro

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[madalin]

Sounds great. +1 :)

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Mike
Schinkel<mikeschinkel@...> wrote:

>> There seems to be a need for an email list that offers support to
>> WordPress users, and where people can ask WP questions and get answers. I
>> know there are the forums, but forums aren't for everybody. I personally am
>> not a fan of forums, while I do find that the various email lists that I'm
>> on offer a lot of value. A great example is the WordPress Israel Google
>> Group (http://groups.google.com/group/wpheb). It's in Hebrew which obviously
>> limits the audience, but the activity there is incredibly helpful and I
>> always feel like it's a shame a similar group doesn't exist in English.
>
> I strongly agree.  +1.
>
> -Mike Schinkel
> WordPress Custom Plugins
> http://mikeschinkel.com/custom-wordpress-plugins/
>
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2009, at 7:50 AM, Miriam Schwab wrote:
>
>> I hope I don't get flamed for suggesting this, but I've been thinking
>> about this issue for a while. There seems to be a need for an email list
>> that offers support to WordPress users, and where people can ask WP
>> questions and get answers. I know there are the forums, but forums aren't
>> for everybody. I personally am not a fan of forums, while I do find that the
>> various email lists that I'm on offer a lot of value. A great example is the
>> WordPress Israel Google Group (http://groups.google.com/group/wpheb). It's
>> in Hebrew which obviously limits the audience, but the activity there is
>> incredibly helpful and I always feel like it's a shame a similar group
>> doesn't exist in English.
>>
>> So...ages ago I set up the following Yahoo Group:
>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/wpgarage/ (named after my WordPress
>> Garage blog). It has a whopping two members and no activity because I never
>> did anything with it. But maybe it can become a worthwhile resource, and
>> also a place to send all the people who end up here with WP development
>> questions.
>>
>> Or not. Whatever you guys think. But if some of you want to join and see
>> how it goes, it would be great to have you :)
>>
>> Miriam
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> Miriam Schwab
>> illuminea marketing & media | www.illuminea.com
>> http://wordpressgarage.com
>> mschwab@...
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:46 AM, Made of These Studio
>> <made.of.these@...> wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> This might not be the right place to post this message to start a
>> discussion, but I couldn't figure of a better/more likely place to start it.
>>
>> So please, if I posted in the wrong place and there's a better place,
>> PLEASE let me know and direct me there.  My intention is to start a
>> discussion and get things cleared up and confirmed for both the older WP pro
>> vets here and the newer incoming people.
>>
>> After the more recent rash of people posting to the list asking for
>> nonpaid help (and help that one can/should get in the forums):
>>
>> The question for discussion is:
>>
>> What IS and IS NOT acceptable/supported posting behavior to this list?
>>
>> What are the guidelines for signatures in posts (if there are even
>> guidelines to begin with)?
>>
>> What SORTS of posts are okay and what are not?
>>
>> Both answers seem to be pretty obvious (to me, anyways), but maybe we
>> could all use a one-shot clarification after all the non-wp pro postings
>> we've gotten lately.
>>
>> In regards to ideas about deterring the off-topic posters from posting to
>> this list or blacklisting them, maybe there really needs to be more steps
>> involved in the signing up process for this list which includes a general
>> overview on what is and isn't accepted on this list.  Currently as far as I
>> know, the sign-up process for this list has no such thing.  If there's a
>> general overview guidelines thing pre-signup, then we on the list can
>> politely point misdirected users to the overview notice and then to the
>> support forum and if said person(s) don't want to 'follow the rules' then it
>> will be easier for us as whole to guide them out of the list.
>>
>> Also, another issue that might be contributing to our influx of
>> misdirected users is that I know that there are people on both the .org and
>> .com WP support forums who have pointed users to our mailing list without
>> explaining that the list is specifically to seek out WP pros to HIRE with
>> compensation.
>>
>> If users who have been misinformed by other users or a simple lack of
>> appropriate information are sent our way and we direct them
>> back/elsewhere/send them packing, that's also a poor reflection on the WP
>> community as a whole in my opinion (but it just might be my own personal
>> opinion).
>>
>> So... yeah.
>>
>> What does everyone think?
>>
>> Right place or wrong place to discuss this?
>>
>> Anyone have other ideas or suggestions for tackling this issue?
>>
>> Did I just make a fool of myself? ;)
>>
>> J/K... sort of.
>>
>> Hope everyone's having a great Friday!
>>
>> ~ Valen
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> wp-pro mailing list
>> wp-pro@...
>> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-pro
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> wp-pro mailing list
>> wp-pro@...
>> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-pro
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>

--
Cu drag,
madalin
http://madalin.eu
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[Mike Schinkel-5]

Miriam:

Why don't you edit http://codex.wordpress.org/Mailing_Lists and add  
your list?  It's a wiki.

-Mike Schinkel
WordPress Custom Plugins
http://mikeschinkel.com/custom-wordpress-plugins/



On Jun 28, 2009, at 7:50 AM, Miriam Schwab wrote:

> I hope I don't get flamed for suggesting this, but I've been  
> thinking about this issue for a while. There seems to be a need for  
> an email list that offers support to WordPress users, and where  
> people can ask WP questions and get answers. I know there are the  
> forums, but forums aren't for everybody. I personally am not a fan  
> of forums, while I do find that the various email lists that I'm on  
> offer a lot of value. A great example is the WordPress Israel Google  
> Group (http://groups.google.com/group/wpheb). It's in Hebrew which  
> obviously limits the audience, but the activity there is incredibly  
> helpful and I always feel like it's a shame a similar group doesn't  
> exist in English.
>
> So...ages ago I set up the following Yahoo Group: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/wpgarage/ 
>  (named after my WordPress Garage blog). It has a whopping two  
> members and no activity because I never did anything with it. But  
> maybe it can become a worthwhile resource, and also a place to send  
> all the people who end up here with WP development questions.
>
> Or not. Whatever you guys think. But if some of you want to join and  
> see how it goes, it would be great to have you :)
>
> Miriam
>
> --------------------------------------
> Miriam Schwab
> illuminea marketing & media | www.illuminea.com
> http://wordpressgarage.com
> mschwab@...
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 2:46 AM, Made of These Studio <made.of.these@...
> > wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> This might not be the right place to post this message to start a  
> discussion, but I couldn't figure of a better/more likely place to  
> start it.
>
> So please, if I posted in the wrong place and there's a better  
> place, PLEASE let me know and direct me there.  My intention is to  
> start a discussion and get things cleared up and confirmed for both  
> the older WP pro vets here and the newer incoming people.
>
> After the more recent rash of people posting to the list asking for  
> nonpaid help (and help that one can/should get in the forums):
>
> The question for discussion is:
>
> What IS and IS NOT acceptable/supported posting behavior to this list?
>
> What are the guidelines for signatures in posts (if there are even  
> guidelines to begin with)?
>
> What SORTS of posts are okay and what are not?
>
> Both answers seem to be pretty obvious (to me, anyways), but maybe  
> we could all use a one-shot clarification after all the non-wp pro  
> postings we've gotten lately.
>
> In regards to ideas about deterring the off-topic posters from  
> posting to this list or blacklisting them, maybe there really needs  
> to be more steps involved in the signing up process for this list  
> which includes a general overview on what is and isn't accepted on  
> this list.  Currently as far as I know, the sign-up process for this  
> list has no such thing.  If there's a general overview guidelines  
> thing pre-signup, then we on the list can politely point misdirected  
> users to the overview notice and then to the support forum and if  
> said person(s) don't want to 'follow the rules' then it will be  
> easier for us as whole to guide them out of the list.
>
> Also, another issue that might be contributing to our influx of  
> misdirected users is that I know that there are people on both  
> the .org and .com WP support forums who have pointed users to our  
> mailing list without explaining that the list is specifically to  
> seek out WP pros to HIRE with compensation.
>
> If users who have been misinformed by other users or a simple lack  
> of appropriate information are sent our way and we direct them back/
> elsewhere/send them packing, that's also a poor reflection on the WP  
> community as a whole in my opinion (but it just might be my own  
> personal opinion).
>
> So... yeah.
>
> What does everyone think?
>
> Right place or wrong place to discuss this?
>
> Anyone have other ideas or suggestions for tackling this issue?
>
> Did I just make a fool of myself? ;)
>
> J/K... sort of.
>
> Hope everyone's having a great Friday!
>
> ~ Valen
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-pro mailing list
> wp-pro@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-pro
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-pro mailing list
> wp-pro@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-pro

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[Lynne Pope]

Have you seen the call from WordPress for feedback/ideas on how to improve
communication?
http://wordpress.org/support/topic/269201?replies=53

As you will see from the feedback garnered so far, there is a general
consensus that things need to be improved. One of the complaints is that
there are already too many different methods of communication.

Providing even more avenues for user support would just add to the mess,
IMO. Hopefully there has been enough feedback by now that changes will be
coming soon.

Lynne
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[Mike Schinkel-5]

 From my perspective this is different.  A list for Q&A isn't a  
"method of communication" so much as a "way to get a problem solved."

Unless and until WordPress.org actually takes action and addresses  
this need I for one am a big +1 on having a support email list.  I  
would help on a list but I'll never help on a forum because the forum  
mechanism doesn't work for me.

-Mike Schinkel
WordPress Custom Plugins
http://mikeschinkel.com/custom-wordpress-plugins/



On Jun 28, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Lynne Pope wrote:

> Have you seen the call from WordPress for feedback/ideas on how to  
> improve
> communication?
> http://wordpress.org/support/topic/269201?replies=53
>
> As you will see from the feedback garnered so far, there is a general
> consensus that things need to be improved. One of the complaints is  
> that
> there are already too many different methods of communication.
>
> Providing even more avenues for user support would just add to the  
> mess,
> IMO. Hopefully there has been enough feedback by now that changes  
> will be
> coming soon.
>
> Lynne
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers

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[scribu]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Mike Schinkel
<mikeschinkel@...>wrote:

> From my perspective this is different.  A list for Q&A isn't a "method of
> communication" so much as a "way to get a problem solved."
>

I agree - these are separate issues: maybe there are too many methods of
communication between general users and the dev team, but communication
between general users and advanced users is a different thing.

IMHO, there should be as many ways for users to talk with each other as
possible. So, a mailing list made specifically for support questions seems
like a good ideea.

--
http://scribu.net
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[Harish Narayanan-2]

Lynne Pope wrote:

> Have you seen the call from WordPress for feedback/ideas on how to improve
> communication?
> http://wordpress.org/support/topic/269201?replies=53
>
> As you will see from the feedback garnered so far, there is a general
> consensus that things need to be improved. One of the complaints is that
> there are already too many different methods of communication.
>
> Providing even more avenues for user support would just add to the mess,
> IMO. Hopefully there has been enough feedback by now that changes will be
> coming soon.

I'm not sure I agree. As long as these different avenues are archived
sensibly and are reasonably easy to search through, I don't see how
having different forms of support is a bad thing. I think these tend to
spring up naturally because people have different working styles.

I personally prefer the mailing-list 'Ask a question,' 'everybody sees
it,' and 'someone who knows the answer provides it' style of
communication. This is different from a support web forum where
interested/knowledgeable folk have to actively trawl through the content
looking for questions to answer. This, to me, has a higher energy
barrier and it is not something I do unless I am really enthusiastic
about the matter in question.

Like Miriam, I too set up a mailing list some time ago
(wp-support@...) for this purpose, but it would be useful
if there were an official wp-support (or wp-users) list analogous to
wp-hackers. Many free software projects follow this model for developer
discussion and user support.

Harish
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[Lynne Pope]

I don't know if any of you who replied on this thread actually read the
comments in the forum post I linked to, but this is a recurring theme.
Here's one:
http://wordpress.org/support/topic/269201?replies=53#post-1070649

Wordpress.org has 14 mailing lists already, plus a forum, IRC channel,
blogs, trac, development updates site and the planet, which aggregates blog
entries from a myriad of sites including the personal sites of core
developers.

There are also loads of blogs, forums and support groups set up and run by
WordPress users. The problem with these is that people very quickly decide
that they want experienced developers and/or core team members to be active
in these groups. It's just not possible. As it is, these folk cannot keep up
with the information/questions/suggestions/etc that is scattered across all
the official communication channels.

Just saying...

Lynne
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