Re: AP Amends Suit Against Shepard Fairey; Says Obama Hope Poster Ar

[Marc Whipple-2]

> Re: AP Amends Suit Against Shepard Fairey; Says Obama Hope Poster Ar
> Posted by: "jg or JG" JeffreyGreenberg@...   jeffgreenberg2
> Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:40 pm (PDT)
>
>
>
> Learned yesterday that the artist "used" a rather SMALL portion of  
> the original photo to "make" his own work:
>
> pdnpulse.com/2009/10/ap-thinks-shepard-fairey-was-lying-the-whole-time.html#comments
> (see before & after photos at top of page)
>
> IMO, this is CLEARLY not a copyright violation...?
>
> It wasn't for the artist who "used" small portions of Marlboro Man  
> ad photos to "make" his own work & sell it for 5 or 6-figure sums  
> each...
> jeffgreenberg

While that guy, whose name I will not even mention, is also a thieving  
hack in my opinion, your comment is in error and says *exactly the  
opposite* of what Fairey's lawyers are now admitting was the case. He  
*claimed* he used a small portion of one photo in his original  
defense, but is now admitting that he used pretty much the entirety of  
a different photo. He also committed perjury and destruction of  
evidence in making it look like the former had occurred, but the AP's  
lawyers are smarter than he is and caught him at it.

M

[jg or JG]

--- In STOCKPHOTO@..., MarcW <marcw@...> wrote:
> ..he used pretty much the entirety of a different photo...
===
Totally different art form introducing many new elements.
Provide link to one or more cases in which an artist was found guilty of copyright violation by creating a non-photograph made from a major portion of a photograph. jeffgreenberg

(lying is separate issue; one can lie about being home when one was really at brothel, but if murder took place in bowling alley, then one is not guilty of murder)

[Ryan McGinnis-2]

I will post just such a link later today; there is a rather fameous case of a photo being turned into a sculpture that was ruled an infringement in court.

-Ryan McGinnis

Sent via smartphone

-----Original Message-----
From: jg or JG <JeffreyGreenberg@...>
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 11:24 AM
To: STOCKPHOTO@...
Subject: [STOCKPHOTO] Re: AP Amends Suit Against Shepard Fairey; Says Obama Hope Poster Ar

--- In STOCKPHOTO@..., MarcW <marcw@...> wrote:
> ..he used pretty much the entirety of a different photo...
===
Totally different art form introducing many new elements.
Provide link to one or more cases in which an artist was found guilty of copyright violation by creating a non-photograph made from a major portion of a photograph. jeffgreenberg

(lying is separate issue; one can lie about being home when one was really at brothel, but if murder took place in bowling alley, then one is not guilty of murder)



------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Courtesy of The STOCKPHOTO Network - http://www.stockphoto.net/
    Reproduction of STOCKPHOTO posts require permission of author
  Posting Rules - http://www.stockphoto.net/Subscriptions.php#rules 
    STOCKPHOTO Archives - http://www.stockphoto.net/Archives.php
     STOCKPHOTO Bookstore - http://www.stockphoto.net/bookstore/
----------------------------------------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links

[jg or JG]

--- In STOCKPHOTO@..., Ryan McGinnis <digicana@...> wrote:
> I will post just such a link later today; there is a rather fameous case of a photo being turned into a sculpture that was ruled an infringement in court
===
This?
http://www.csusa.org/caw/caw_2006_teachers_articles_visual_art.htm

The court ruled:
"A fair use parody had to parody the copied item at least in part rather than copy the work wholesale..."

IMO, Obama edges & borders were copied wholesale, but interiors & backgrounds constituting majority of image, were completely replaced.  jeffgreenberg

[Andrew Darlow]

Here is one example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_v._Koons

All the best,

Andrew
---------------------------------------------------
Andrew Darlow
Editor, The Imaging Buffet
http://www.imagingbuffet.com
Author, 301 Inkjet Tips and Techniques:
An Essential Printing Resource for Photographers - http://www.inkjettips.com



On Oct 26, 2009, at 12:24 PM, jg or JG wrote:

> --- In STOCKPHOTO@..., MarcW <marcw@...> wrote:
> > ..he used pretty much the entirety of a different photo...
> ===
> Totally different art form introducing many new elements.
> Provide link to one or more cases in which an artist was found  
> guilty of copyright violation by creating a non-photograph made from  
> a major portion of a photograph. jeffgreenberg
>
> (lying is separate issue; one can lie about being home when one was  
> really at brothel, but if murder took place in bowling alley, then  
> one is not guilty of murder)
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ryan McGinnis-2]

BTW, here is a case that you were requesting:

http://openjurist.org/960/f2d/301/rogers-v-koons

Here is a (grainy BW) copy of the photograph that was infringed:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/faculty/martin/art_law/rogers_puppies.gif

and here is the infringing artwork:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/faculty/martin/art_law/koons_puppies.jpg

Here is a commentary on this case:

http://www.asopa.com/publications/2000winter/law.htm

Happy reading,

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 11:24 AM, jg or JG <JeffreyGreenberg@...> wrote:

> --- In STOCKPHOTO@..., MarcW <marcw@...> wrote:
>> ..he used pretty much the entirety of a different photo...
> ===
> Totally different art form introducing many new elements.
> Provide link to one or more cases in which an artist was found guilty of copyright violation by creating a non-photograph made from a major portion of a photograph. jeffgreenberg
>
> (lying is separate issue; one can lie about being home when one was really at brothel, but if murder took place in bowling alley, then one is not guilty of murder)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Courtesy of The STOCKPHOTO Network - http://www.stockphoto.net/
>    Reproduction of STOCKPHOTO posts require permission of author
>  Posting Rules - http://www.stockphoto.net/Subscriptions.php#rules
>    STOCKPHOTO Archives - http://www.stockphoto.net/Archives.php
>     STOCKPHOTO Bookstore - http://www.stockphoto.net/bookstore/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
-Ryan McGinnis
The BIG Storm Picture -- http://bigstormpicture.com
Vortex-2 image licensing at http://vortex-2.com
Getty: http://www.gettyimages.com/search/search.aspx?artist=Ryan+McGinnis

[Ryan McGinnis-2]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:02 PM, jg or JG <JeffreyGreenberg@...> wrote:
> --- In STOCKPHOTO@..., Ryan McGinnis <digicana@...> wrote:
>> I will post just such a link later today; there is a rather fameous case of a photo being turned into a sculpture that was ruled an infringement in court
> ===
> This?
> http://www.csusa.org/caw/caw_2006_teachers_articles_visual_art.htm
>
> The court ruled:
> "A fair use parody had to parody the copied item at least in part rather than copy the work wholesale..."


> IMO, Obama edges & borders were copied wholesale, but interiors & backgrounds constituting majority of image, were completely replaced.  jeffgreenberg

Jeff,

I am not a lawyer.

I'm not sure what parody has to do with Fairey's case; I find it very
difficult to follow your line of thought altogether in this thread.
I'm not sure you even understand the heart of the material you've been
reading, as your summations of the articles you've been linking to
have been entirely at odds with the content of the articles
themselves.

From what I have read in various books on the subject, it would appear
that ultimately only a court can decide fair use.  What we believe
isn't very relevant; all we can do is make informed guesses about what
a court might rule.  Considering Mr. Fairey used a large element of a
photo for his derivative, copied it almost wholesale with only
stylistic modifications, commercially profited from it, and has now
willfully lied to the court and withheld evidence (to such an extent
that his current lawyers must now abandon him), my guess would be that
he has a snowball's chance in hell of getting his derivative ruled as
fair use.  Either way it's a great test case, I guess, since every new
ruling is another data point that will help all artists better
understand the current legal position on fair use.

--
-Ryan McGinnis
The BIG Storm Picture -- http://bigstormpicture.com
Vortex-2 image licensing at http://vortex-2.com
Getty: http://www.gettyimages.com/search/search.aspx?artist=Ryan+McGinnis

[jg or JG]

> http://www.csusa.org/caw/caw_2006_teachers_articles_visual_art.htm
> The court ruled:
> "A fair use parody had to parody the copied item at least in part rather than copy the work wholesale..."
>
> IMO, Obama edges & borders were copied wholesale, but interiors & backgrounds constituting majority of image, were completely replaced.  ===
Additionally, "HOPE" text gives artwork an entirely different meaning AKA "parody message" than photo; Obama may give hope to many, but photo does not objectively convey hope -- its just a face & a flag...
jeffgreenberg, thinking about what defense lawyer might say

[David Sanger-3]

This case is far from trivial and as it turns out the "fair use" issue
probably won't be adjudicated due to Fairey's misstatements.

For a summary of the various legal issues this a good series


Fairey, Obama, and Fair Use    January 21st, 2009  http://j.mp/Gt33S

The Obama “Hope” Poster Case — Why New York? February 11, 2009
http://j.mp/24fCE9

The Obama “Hope” Poster Case — Who Owns the Photo? February 12, 2009
http://j.mp/4AMHp0

The Obama “Hope” Poster Case — A Copyright Catch-22?  February 14, 2009
http://j.mp/3aBH9M

The Obama “Hope” Poster Case — How Was the Poster Created?  February 27,
2009 http://j.mp/4kFXN8

The Obama “Hope” Poster Case — AP Strikes Back  March 11, 2009
http://j.mp/3axtj2

The Obama “Hope” Poster Case — What’s a “Visual Reference”? March 12, 2009 |
http://j.mp/12jyS

The Obama “Hope” Poster Case — Mannie Garcia Weighs In  July 13, 2009
http://j.mp/1kLIkY

The Obama “Hope” Poster Case — Whoa! October 16th, 2009  http://j.mp/38OBnb


-----
david sanger photography llc
travel ::  stock :: photography :: technology
updates at www.davidsanger.com
t   510-526-0800
m 510-526-2800


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ryan McGinnis-2]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 7:13 PM, David Sanger <ds@...> wrote:
> This case is far from trivial and as it turns out the "fair use" issue
> probably won't be adjudicated due to Fairey's misstatements.
>
> For a summary of the various legal issues this a good series

Many thanks, David -- that's some good reading.

--
-Ryan McGinnis
The BIG Storm Picture -- http://bigstormpicture.com
Vortex-2 image licensing at http://vortex-2.com
Getty: http://www.gettyimages.com/search/search.aspx?artist=Ryan+McGinnis