Re: Bible websites

[Charles Matthews]

stevertigo wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Charles
> Matthews<charles.r.matthews@...> wrote:
>  
>> stevertigo wrote:
>>    
>>> Do I understand this to be a personal invective directed at me?
>>>      
>> It's a Tolkien reference, but I suppose if Carcharoth didn't get it, it
>> is fairly obscure.
>>    
>
> Ah. So "corrupted ent" is just your sly way of calling me a "troll,"
> one that by mentioning Tolkien has the added benefit of making you
> look like a kind Tolkien-fan genius - even while making an undue
> personal attack.
>
>  

Sure. But not in a good way.
> I'll be on KGS as "nako" for a bit, if you want to understand what
> trolling really is
>
>  
So what's your KGS ranking?

Charles




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[stevertigo-2]

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Charles
Matthews<charles.r.matthews@...> wrote:

> Sure. But not in a good way.
I graciously accept your apology.

> So what's your KGS ranking?

It's a new account, but I can give you one stone.

-Stevertigo

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[Charles Matthews]

stevertigo wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Charles
> Matthews<charles.r.matthews@...> wrote:
>
>  
>> Sure. But not in a good way.
>>    
> I graciously accept your apology.
>
>  
>> So what's your KGS ranking?
>>    
>
> It's a new account, but I can give you one stone.
>
>
>  

Well, settling it over the board would be good, but on the basis of
http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=nako I kind of doubt that.
Still, I'm rusty too.

Charles



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[stevertigo-2]

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:26 AM, Charles
Matthews<charles.r.matthews@...> wrote:

> Well, settling it over the board would be good, but on the basis of
> [my one game history] I kind of doubt that.
> Still, I'm rusty too.

Rusty goes around. I had to default on that game actually. Something came up.

-S

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[Ray Saintonge]

stevertigo wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Charles Matthews wrote:
>  
>> stevertigo wrote:
>>    
>>> Do I understand this to be a personal invective directed at me?
>>>      
>> It's a Tolkien reference, but I suppose if Carcharoth didn't get it, it
>> is fairly obscure.
>>    
> Ah. So "corrupted ent" is just your sly way of calling me a "troll,"
> one that by mentioning Tolkien has the added benefit of making you
> look like a kind Tolkien-fan genius - even while making an undue
> personal attack.
>  

I didn't understand the allusion either until Carcharoth provided the
link, but I would prefer to avoid having my ignorance of a concept as a
foundation for perceiving a personal attack.
> Which kind of troll, by the way, do you suppose I am?  Stone troll,
> maybe? River troll?
>  

A long-line troll with plenty of bait on the hooks.

> Just to amuse myself, I'm searching now for the appropriate fallacy to
> describe, categorize, and thus contain your vexatious litigation. Just
> flipping through my short list of fallacies, perhaps the classic "do
> you still beat your wife?" fallacy would be a good place to start.
>  
"Litigation"???  Once you have presumed fallacy it is only a matter of
time before your short list is expanded sufficiently to find an
including category.

Ec

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[Ray Saintonge]

stevertigo wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Charles Matthews wrote:
>  
>> So you have your divisive discussion going now.
>>    
> Its not "my discussion." For one, it takes two to tango. Secondly, I
> finished it didn't I?
>  

Are you standing on the deck of an aircraft carrier to proclaim this
victory?

>> Explain to me again how this improves the English Wikipedia.
>>    
> That would take too long.
>  

Hmmm. Proclaiming victory and admitting defeat almost in the same breath.

>> or just when someone is unselfdisciplined enough
>>    
> What do you mean by this? Are you calling Ray "unselfdisciplined" for
> being a vocal atheist?
>  

Unselfdisciplined perhaps, though you do me an injustice to impute such
a motive. I'm just happy to treat religious argumentation with all the
ROTFL that it deserves.

Ec



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[Magnus Manske-2]

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:09 AM, David Gerard<dgerard@...> wrote:

> 2009/7/7 David Gerard <dgerard@...>:
>> 2009/7/6 Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@...>:
>
>>> You're right. To atone for my sins, here the auto-comparing toolserver
>>> tool I hacked since my first mail:
>>> http://toolserver.org/~magnus/biblebay.php?bookname=John&range=3%3A16-3%3A18
>
>> :-O That would be more or less precisely what I was thinking of. Well done!
>
>
> Feature suggestion: original untranslated verse (Hebrew or Greek) at top.

Do we have that (in the fame format) on wikisource?

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[George Herbert]

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Ray Saintonge<saintonge@...> wrote:

> stevertigo wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Charles Matthews wrote:
>>
>>> So you have your divisive discussion going now.
>>>
>> Its not "my discussion." For one, it takes two to tango. Secondly, I
>> finished it didn't I?
>>
>
> Are you standing on the deck of an aircraft carrier to proclaim this
> victory?
>
>>> Explain to me again how this improves the English Wikipedia.
>>>
>> That would take too long.
>>
>
> Hmmm. Proclaiming victory and admitting defeat almost in the same breath.
>
>>> or just when someone is unselfdisciplined enough
>>>
>> What do you mean by this? Are you calling Ray "unselfdisciplined" for
>> being a vocal atheist?
>>
>
> Unselfdisciplined perhaps, though you do me an injustice to impute such
> a motive. I'm just happy to treat religious argumentation with all the
> ROTFL that it deserves.

I have a great idea for improving the encyclopedia.

Hows about anyone trying to perpetuate religious arguments on Wikien-L
goes on moderation for a week!


--
-george william herbert
george.herbert@...

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[Charles Matthews]

Magnus Manske wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:09 AM, David Gerard<dgerard@...> wrote:
>  
>> 2009/7/7 David Gerard <dgerard@...>:
>>    
>>> 2009/7/6 Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@...>:
>>>      
>>>> You're right. To atone for my sins, here the auto-comparing toolserver
>>>> tool I hacked since my first mail:
>>>> http://toolserver.org/~magnus/biblebay.php?bookname=John&range=3%3A16-3%3A18
>>>>        
>>> :-O That would be more or less precisely what I was thinking of. Well done!
>>>      
>> Feature suggestion: original untranslated verse (Hebrew or Greek) at top.
>>    
>
> Do we have that (in the fame format) on wikisource?
>
>  

Following the "Bible" page on enWS leads quickly enough to
http://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AC_%CE%99%CF%89%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%B7%CE%BD

which is actually the Gospel of John marked out in verses. Now, whether
that is the "original" Greek is another matter: it seems to be the
standard version for the Patriarchate of Constantinople?

I got well lost trying the heWS interwiki.

Charles


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[David Gerard-2]

2009/7/7 Carcharoth <carcharothwp@...>:

> I believe somewhere in all this, there was some working code. What
> more needs doing to make that go live, or to propose to take it live?
> Magnus Manske: "You're right. To atone for my sins, here the
> auto-comparing toolserver
> tool I hacked since my first mail"
> http://toolserver.org/~magnus/biblebay.php?bookname=John&range=3%3A16-3%3A18
> Where should that tool be discussed?


Well, I mentioned it on my Wikimedia blog :-) Er, presumably the
Bible-related wikiprojects would be a good place.


- d.

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[Cary Bass-4]

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Magnus Manske wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:09 AM, David Gerard<dgerard@...>
> wrote:
>> 2009/7/7 David Gerard <dgerard@...>:
>>> 2009/7/6 Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@...>:
>>>> You're right. To atone for my sins, here the auto-comparing
>>>> toolserver tool I hacked since my first mail:
>>>>
http://toolserver.org/~magnus/biblebay.php?bookname=John&range=3%3A16-3%3A18
>>>>
>>> :-O That would be more or less precisely what I was thinking
>>> of. Well done!
>>
>> Feature suggestion: original untranslated verse (Hebrew or Greek)
>> at top.
I would also suggest a new option:

When I typed in 1 Corinthians 13, I expected to get the entire verse,
but instead got a blank item.

Perhaps in the event of no ":" it will default to verses "ALL"?

Cary
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[Andrew Gray-3]

2009/7/7 David Gerard <dgerard@...>:

>> Where should that tool be discussed?
>
> Well, I mentioned it on my Wikimedia blog :-) Er, presumably the
> Bible-related wikiprojects would be a good place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Bibleverse &
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Bibleref would seem a good
place to go about it, since this is what it's effectively going to be
replacing!

--
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray@...

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[Magnus Manske-2]

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Charles
Matthews<charles.r.matthews@...> wrote:

> Magnus Manske wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:09 AM, David Gerard<dgerard@...> wrote:
>>
>>> 2009/7/7 David Gerard <dgerard@...>:
>>>
>>>> 2009/7/6 Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@...>:
>>>>
>>>>> You're right. To atone for my sins, here the auto-comparing toolserver
>>>>> tool I hacked since my first mail:
>>>>> http://toolserver.org/~magnus/biblebay.php?bookname=John&range=3%3A16-3%3A18
>>>>>
>>>> :-O That would be more or less precisely what I was thinking of. Well done!
>>>>
>>> Feature suggestion: original untranslated verse (Hebrew or Greek) at top.
>>>
>>
>> Do we have that (in the fame format) on wikisource?
>>
>>
> Following the "Bible" page on enWS leads quickly enough to
> http://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AC_%CE%99%CF%89%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%B7%CE%BD
>
> which is actually the Gospel of John marked out in verses. Now, whether
> that is the "original" Greek is another matter: it seems to be the
> standard version for the Patriarchate of Constantinople?
>
> I got well lost trying the heWS interwiki.

There is now Greek (where available), and a link to the NIV.

I think I'll pass on the Hebrew for fear of putting my eyeballs in reverse...

Magnus

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[Ray Saintonge]

stevertigo wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>  
>> Your eccentric distinction between atheists is seriously unhelpful.
>>    
> I don't suppose "seriously unhelpful" comment would be the same kind
> of criticism a Muslim might make of a Westerner who illuminated some
> basic distinctions between Sunnis and Shia?  I understand the basic
> sectarian and 'united front' concepts, actually.
>  

A Westerner with no particular interest in Islam is more likely to see
the Sunni/Shia distinction as insignificant; he may be all too willing
to tar these "terrorists" with the same brush.  Similarly, a believer
who sees himself under attack from atheists easily imagines those
attacks as from a United Front. But when it comes what distinguishes
co-believers the entire homoösis/homoiosis debate breaks out again.

>> It is one thing to believe that there is no god (atheist), and quite another for that person to treat it as a "devotion" to a cause.
>>    
> It has been my experience that atheist can be quite irate people -
> Dawkin's book for example is just an sophomoric screed. I've also been
> personally attacked by atheists:  crude, vaudeville, and eccentric,
> are some examples.
>  
Dawkin is certainly a proseltyser among atheists, but then not all
Christians are preachers.  On both sides of the divide most people
quietly believe without ever setting foot in a common meeting place such
as a church.

Some atheists can be quite irate, but it is not logical to generalize
this to all atheists. On-line one needs to exercise some discretion
before interpreting the questioning of ideas as some kind of personal
attack.  Inflamitorily disembodying certain words from their contexts
does not provide satisfactory evidence of personal attack.  How is
"crude hypothesis" a personal attack? How is "eccentric distinction
between..." a personal attack?  How is the "vaudeville" of angels a
personal attack?

>> That atheist just reports what he sees.
>>    
> No, the *scientist just reports what he sees. The *atheist assumes
> that only what he can see actually exists.
>  

A clear misunderstanding of science; science depends upon a continuing
cycle of hypothesis and hypothesis testing.  Your claim about atheists
is plain fantasy.

>> Maybe he'll supply a few pin-heads to alleviate the crowded condition of angels, and to allow
>> their vaudeville to entertain a larger population.
>>    
> Huh?
>  

OK, my imagery was obscure.  It's rooted in the notion that many
religious arguments are about the number of angels that can dance on the
head of a pin.  I was looking off that one pin-head for a solution. ;-)

This is interesting in the light of your later comment that atheists
don't get jokes.
>> It's his absence of faith that protects him from such commitments.
>>    
> Well, note that yesterday you called atheism both a faith and a
> belief. I'm glad you now cleared that up.
>  

To simplify, we should be able to accept that "faith" and "belief" are
synonymous.  Read no more into this than is necessary.  If there is a
convenient word to express the absence of faith I would prefer that to
semantic gymnastics.

>> Decrees about condoms derive from the temporal power of the Church.
>>    
> Hm. This expresses more of a "fight the power" sentiment than anything
> else doesn't it?
>  

Somewhat.  But I don't underestimate the power of faith, whether or not
the foundation for that faith is justified.  A charismatic queen bee is
effective until the hive mind takes over to impose order.
>> Nevertheless, neither panders his disbelief to be endearing.
>>    
> This is actually not true. For example, I once had a discussion with
> an online atheist wherein I threw in some jokes. The atheist did not
> get them.
>  

See the angels discussion above.


There was more that I could comment on (Yawn!) ... but this is taking
too long, and I'm getting bored.

Ec

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[Ray Saintonge]

David Gerard wrote:

> 2009/7/6 Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@...>:
>
>  
>> You're right. To atone for my sins, here the auto-comparing toolserver
>> tool I hacked since my first mail:
>> http://toolserver.org/~magnus/biblebay.php?bookname=John&range=3%3A16-3%3A18
>>    
>
>
> :-O That would be more or less precisely what I was thinking of. Well done!
>
>
>  

The Qur'an could be treated in a similar way.

Ec

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[Ray Saintonge]

David Gerard wrote:

> 2009/7/7 David Gerard <dgerard@...>:
>  
>> 2009/7/6 Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@...>:
>>    
>>> You're right. To atone for my sins, here the auto-comparing toolserver
>>> tool I hacked since my first mail:
>>> http://toolserver.org/~magnus/biblebay.php?bookname=John&range=3%3A16-3%3A18
>>>      
>> :-O That would be more or less precisely what I was thinking of. Well done!
>>    
> Feature suggestion: original untranslated verse (Hebrew or Greek) at top.
>
>
>  

Also links to corresponding pages in other languages.

Ec

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[John Vandenberg]

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:08 PM, David Gerard<dgerard@...> wrote:

> 2009/7/6 stevertigo <stvrtg@...>:
>
>> Hm. Of course, Tim is right - if its public/open domain then
>> wikisource should host it and we will then link to it. The issue with
>> the hebtools site/script is that most of its links go to BibleGateway.
>>  Obviously the current script's sources need to be changed to include
>> both other gateways like bible.cc and of course wikisource. A choice
>> of gateways would be preferable.
>> The current hosted translations/versions on wikisource are:
>>    * Bible (Wycliffe) (1380s)
>>    * Bible (Tyndale) (1526)
>>    * Douay-Rheims Bible (1610)
>>    * King James translation, or “Authorized Version” (1611)
>>    * King James translation, Oxford Standard (1769)
>>    * American Standard translation (1901)
>>    * Bible (Jewish Publication Society 1917)
>>    * World English translation (in progress since 1997)
>>    * Wikisource translation (in progress since 2006)
>
>
> Is there anything that will show the same verse in several
> translations at once? That would be ideal - highly educational. That
> would require something less like wiki pages and more like a database
> at the other end. Or someone laboriously compiling wiki pages of the
> form en.wiki---.org/wiki/John/3/16 .

Wikisource does this whenever someone can be bothered adding the
necessary glue.  e.g.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible/Jude/1/1

see here for more:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/Bible/

--
John Vandenberg

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[Peter Jacobi]

Despite being at least semi off topic, I must
comment on this:

> The Bible is a well-known ancient work with great cultural
> significance.  Its status as fiction or fact is almost beside the
> point.  It is accurate about what it itself says, which can be cited
> as appropriate to inform articles where what it said was/is relevant.

But there is a widespread abuse of citing the bible and it will
not get better by providing technical means to better cite the bible.

What I mean is giving bible citations as reference for
theological statements.  There are two thousand years of
struggling factions of christianity and libraries full of
interpretations of bible verses. You cannot ignore this
and propose that the bible verse can speak for itself.

Peter



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[WJhonson]

In a message dated 7/8/2009 11:51:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
peter_jacobi@... writes:


> There are two thousand years of
> struggling factions of christianity and libraries full of
> interpretations of bible verses. You cannot ignore this
> and propose that the bible verse can speak for itself.>>
>

-------

The only thing that is being proposed is that in those articles where we
have a bible verse citation, that we alter the way it's treated.

Will




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[Charles Matthews]

Peter Jacobi wrote:

> Despite being at least semi off topic, I must
> comment on this:
>
>  
>> The Bible is a well-known ancient work with great cultural
>> significance.  Its status as fiction or fact is almost beside the
>> point.  It is accurate about what it itself says, which can be cited
>> as appropriate to inform articles where what it said was/is relevant.
>>    
>
> But there is a widespread abuse of citing the bible and it will
> not get better by providing technical means to better cite the bible.
>
> What I mean is giving bible citations as reference for
> theological statements.  There are two thousand years of
> struggling factions of christianity and libraries full of
> interpretations of bible verses. You cannot ignore this
> and propose that the bible verse can speak for itself.
>
>
>  

I agree. But with more apparatus - links to commentaries and so on - the
point about different interpretations can become clearer.

Charles



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