Re: Building both floats and doubles

> I found that in SuperCollider SVN, unit generator samples are always
> declared as "float."
>
> I do not know about the SuperCollider language, but it is the unit
> generator architecture that is important for this discussion.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On 5/26/09, joachim heintz <jh@...> wrote:
>> I do not agree that the performance criterium is more important than
>> the audio precision, in the case which is discussed. I think one of
>> the advantages of Csound is its goal to have the best quality
>> possible. If there are some situations where "the improvement is
>> audible" though they are "few and subtle", as you say, I'd prefer to
>> have these improvements, even if the performance is 10% slower.
>> Perhaps this will not be relevant then with the next generation of
>> processors, but the precision will.
>> I've heard that SuperCollider uses doubles - is that true?
>>
>> joachim
>>
>>
>> Am 26.05.2009 um 14:03 schrieb Michael Gogins:
>>
>>> I propose that we simply move to support only one sample size. I  
>>> would
>>> prefer double, but I can live with float.
>>>
>>> The motive for double was a hypothesis that audio precision would
>>> improve. It did improve, but the cases where the improvement is
>>> audible are few and subtle. Therefore, I believe we should  
>>> standardize
>>> on the audio sample size whose performance is optimum.
>>>
>>> This fastest sample size seems to be different on different
>>> architectures, but I don't see why that is a problem. In a sense,  
>>> it's
>>> even an advantage, as it would ensure that we continue to maintain  
>>> the
>>> build for both sample sizes.
>>>
>>> I propose that we conduct tests of representative performance use
>>> cases on OS X, Windows, and Linux, and standardize packages for the
>>> best performing sample size on each platform. I also propose that we
>>> repeat my double blind tests of audio rendering precision with more
>>> formal use cases and on different platforms.
>>>
>>> Your use of 'R' shows that we could write Python scripts that can
>>> automate the builds and the performance testing, and analyze the
>>> results. We could do the same with ABX comparison if we write a  
>>> little
>>> Python GUI for the ABX tests.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 5/26/09, victor <Victor.Lazzarini@...> wrote:
>>>> My opinion on this matter is that we should perhaps start moving
>>>> towards support doubles only and have clear roadmap for that.
>>>> Eventually floats could still be built from sources, but not
>>>> supported
>>>> in binary distributions.
>>>>
>>>> Victor
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Felipe Sateler" <fsateler@...>
>>>> To: "Developer discussions" <csound-devel@...>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 2:52 AM
>>>> Subject: [Cs-dev] Building both floats and doubles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I've been thinking about changing the csound Debian packaging to
>>>>> support both 32 and 64 bit builds. There is, however, one major
>>>>> problem. While the csound library itself has a different name for
>>>>> each
>>>>> version, allowing both to be installed at the same time, none of  
>>>>> the
>>>>> other libraries do. Plugins could be easily configured to  
>>>>> install on
>>>>> separate paths and define appropriate OPCODEDIR/OPCODE64DIR.
>>>>> However,
>>>>> the interface libraries do not encode the floating point size in
>>>>> their
>>>>> names, thus making it impossible to install both at the same time.
>>>>> libcsnd.so would need to be renamed, and lua/python/java bindings
>>>>> would have to conflict with each other (because there is no
>>>>> meaningful
>>>>> way in which this can be done without renaming the module, and I
>>>>> think
>>>>> it doesn't make much sense to have both). Alternatively, I could
>>>>> allow
>>>>> the csound library to be both sizes, but only allow a single  
>>>>> version
>>>>> of libcsnd.so (and thus, all the bindings).
>>>>> The second option is clearly suboptimal, but it is simpler, and is
>>>>> better than the current situation (although, inside debian, nobody
>>>>> uses libcsound yet, and the only prospective package I know of is
>>>>> qutecsound, which wouldn't benefit since it uses libcsnd.so).
>>>>> However,
>>>>> just supporting different versions of the same executable at the
>>>>> same
>>>>> time is a significant pain, and I won't do it unless somebody
>>>>> shows me
>>>>> it has some clear advantages.
>>>>> The first option is technically superior, but it would mean  
>>>>> breaking
>>>>> existing users of libcsnd.so (how many of these are out there?
>>>>> qutecsound and CsoundAC are the only ones that I am aware of).  
>>>>> Users
>>>>> of python/lua/java interfaces will not have a problem because  
>>>>> those
>>>>> wrappers would be changed at the same time as csound. I think the
>>>>> safest way to do this (if there is need to) is to just change the
>>>>> name
>>>>> and (unfortunately) requiring applications to change if they  
>>>>> want to
>>>>> use the 64bit version.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you people think it is worth it? I only use doubles version,  
>>>>> but
>>>>> apparently some people have uses for floats due to its perceived
>>>>> performance benefit (which may not always exist, as we've seen).  
>>>>> And
>>>>> by worth it, I mean breaking every user of the csnd C++ wrapper.
>>>>> Developers, do you think this increase in complexity is  
>>>>> worthwile? I
>>>>> ask because I remember some talk about just dropping floats a  
>>>>> while
>>>>> ago.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Saludos,
>>>>> Felipe Sateler
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Gogins
>>> Irreducible Productions
>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>
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>>
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>
>
> --
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
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