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Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?

by andrea valle-3 :: Rate this Message:

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Uri,

I totally agree here, as many I guess.
Let's say. If you have to prototype a DSP engine, no control flow, maybe you can be faster and more intuitive with spaghetti.
Every time you need organization, intelligence, modularity etc it's better if you eat spaghetti and learn to write code.

This said, my multimedia students are scared by code (yes, it's bizarre, what can I do?)

I've always appreciated Miller Puckette: 

"
Programming in Max 

Musicians have often used Max as a programming 
environment, at which Max succeeds only very 
awkwardly. There is no concept of scoping or 
namespaces in Max; all symbols and their bindings 
live in one flat space. This decision was made to re- 
move a layer of complexity that did not seem 
strictly necessary in the context of computer music 
production, in order to make Max as accessible as 
possible to people who are not professional com- 
puter programmers. 
Further, Max lacks any notion of linear "control 
flow" such as is fundamental in any real-world pro- 
gramming environment. The whole notion of con- 
trol flow, with loops, conditionals, and subroutines, 
is easy to express in text languages, but thus far, 
graphical programming languages have not found 
the same fluency or economy of expression as text 
languages have. 
Rather than a programming environment, Max is 
fundamentally a system for scheduling real-time 
tasks and managing communication among them. 
"
(
Max at Seventeen 
Author(s): Miller Puckette 
Source: Computer Music Journal, Vol. 26, No. 4, Languages and Environments for Computer 
Music (Winter, 2002), pp. 31-43 
)

-a-

On 24 Apr 2009, at 10:38, Uri Sala wrote:

Dear list,
Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school have a hard time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced that if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to my why the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI, and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start patching themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user gets the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week.
I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries to shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do something that would take 1 line in SC.
Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, let me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. Coding vs dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of them whether they think it would be better to program in that way and you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great programming with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C modules.
I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that exposes what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I would like to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest points, print them and post them all over town.

Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have my pill now.

Cheers
Uri

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Andrea Valle
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CIRMA - DAMS
Università degli Studi di Torino
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" This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous." 
(Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)

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