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Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by loriend
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Ha,
no problem, I think all the max family are pretty neat for getting
simple things up and running quickly, but complex things turn into a
nightmare in my experience. I think Max MSP is far better for in class
demos than SC because of the quick drag and drop GUI stuff, but for a
serious project I find data flow "languages" agony.
So I'm all for using Max like things for an introduction to
interactive music, but think proper programming needs to be taught too,
and several of my old study mates who stuck with Max have wished they'd
learned C and C++ after seeing/hearing some of the things I did with
video game audio systems.
I seriously don't understand how anyone can disagree with programming
being like scales for a computer musician, but I was trying to be
inflammatory as requested.
cheers,
L
Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> Sorry to disagree here.
>
> As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them
> going within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug and play is
> the base of it.
>
> SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy
> and DSP.
>
> And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play
> bass at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a
> professional luthier for this.
>
> No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community
> is probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite
> SC being a fantastic, different, complementary tool.
>
> hugs from the North of England
>
> pa
>
>
>
> Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
>
>> As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play out
>> instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you
>> can't program in a proper programming language, then you're the
>> student who hasn't practiced their scales.
>>
>> From a music grad who made into computer science academia before
>> going back to music ;)
>> Lorien
>> Uri Sala wrote:
>>> Dear list,
>>> Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
>>> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
>>> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been
>>> using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at
>>> school have a hard time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I
>>> am totally convinced that if they used SC they would learn much
>>> faster. Can anybody explain to my why the myth that coding is hard
>>> and that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to
>>> program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really.
>>> Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music
>>> student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a
>>> nice GUI, and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that,
>>> under that nice looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches,
>>> until they start patching themselves. I am sure that, eventually
>>> along the line, every Max user gets the "god there are so many
>>> cables and windows open, maybe text would actually be better" - kind
>>> of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week.
>>> I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong
>>> feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher
>>> tries to shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with
>>> nonsense to do something that would take 1 line in SC.
>>> Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well,
>>> let me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid
>>> dilemma. Coding vs dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know
>>> any (non musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and
>>> cables? Ask any of them whether they think it would be better to
>>> program in that way and you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many
>>> people have done great programming with Max. I once ate a soup with
>>> a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said that Max was not thought
>>> out to program with, just to use as patcher for C modules.
>>> I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that
>>> exposes what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If
>>> not, I would like to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to
>>> collect the strongest points, print them and post them all over town.
>>>
>>> Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have
>>> my pill now.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Uri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sc-users mailing list
>>>
>>> info (subscription, etc.):
>>> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sc-users mailing list
>>
>> info (subscription, etc.):
>> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sc-users mailing list
>
> info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>
_______________________________________________
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archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
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no problem, I think all the max family are pretty neat for getting
simple things up and running quickly, but complex things turn into a
nightmare in my experience. I think Max MSP is far better for in class
demos than SC because of the quick drag and drop GUI stuff, but for a
serious project I find data flow "languages" agony.
So I'm all for using Max like things for an introduction to
interactive music, but think proper programming needs to be taught too,
and several of my old study mates who stuck with Max have wished they'd
learned C and C++ after seeing/hearing some of the things I did with
video game audio systems.
I seriously don't understand how anyone can disagree with programming
being like scales for a computer musician, but I was trying to be
inflammatory as requested.
cheers,
L
Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> Sorry to disagree here.
>
> As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them
> going within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug and play is
> the base of it.
>
> SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy
> and DSP.
>
> And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play
> bass at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a
> professional luthier for this.
>
> No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community
> is probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite
> SC being a fantastic, different, complementary tool.
>
> hugs from the North of England
>
> pa
>
>
>
> Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
>
>> As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play out
>> instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you
>> can't program in a proper programming language, then you're the
>> student who hasn't practiced their scales.
>>
>> From a music grad who made into computer science academia before
>> going back to music ;)
>> Lorien
>> Uri Sala wrote:
>>> Dear list,
>>> Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
>>> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
>>> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been
>>> using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at
>>> school have a hard time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I
>>> am totally convinced that if they used SC they would learn much
>>> faster. Can anybody explain to my why the myth that coding is hard
>>> and that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to
>>> program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really.
>>> Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music
>>> student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a
>>> nice GUI, and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that,
>>> under that nice looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches,
>>> until they start patching themselves. I am sure that, eventually
>>> along the line, every Max user gets the "god there are so many
>>> cables and windows open, maybe text would actually be better" - kind
>>> of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week.
>>> I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong
>>> feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher
>>> tries to shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with
>>> nonsense to do something that would take 1 line in SC.
>>> Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well,
>>> let me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid
>>> dilemma. Coding vs dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know
>>> any (non musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and
>>> cables? Ask any of them whether they think it would be better to
>>> program in that way and you're likely to get a laugh. Of course many
>>> people have done great programming with Max. I once ate a soup with
>>> a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said that Max was not thought
>>> out to program with, just to use as patcher for C modules.
>>> I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that
>>> exposes what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If
>>> not, I would like to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to
>>> collect the strongest points, print them and post them all over town.
>>>
>>> Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have
>>> my pill now.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Uri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sc-users mailing list
>>>
>>> info (subscription, etc.):
>>> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sc-users mailing list
>>
>> info (subscription, etc.):
>> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sc-users mailing list
>
> info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>
_______________________________________________
sc-users mailing list
info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
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