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Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Dan Stowell
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Hi Pierre -
Disagreement is good, please carry on.
In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is actually quite
rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and sc (and
all the other environments that offer similar possibilities) have
different learning curves and make different things difficult/easy,
and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I for one
would like to read more research on this topic - I only rarely use
patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal experience of
managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read studies which
investigate these issues.
Dan
2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>:
> Sorry to disagree here.
>
> As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them going
> within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug and play is the base of
> it.
>
> SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy and
> DSP.
>
> And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play bass
> at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a professional
> luthier for this.
>
> No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community is
> probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC being a
> fantastic, different, complementary tool.
>
> hugs from the North of England
>
> pa
>
>
>
> Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
>
>
>
> > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play out
> instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you can't
> program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who hasn't
> practiced their scales.
> >
> > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before going
> back to music ;)
> > Lorien
> > Uri Sala wrote:
> >
> > > Dear list,
> > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been using
> Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school have a hard
> time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced that
> if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to my why
> the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of spaghetti
> makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean,
> really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music
> student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI,
> and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice
> looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start patching
> themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user gets
> the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would
> actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week.
> > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong
> feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries to
> shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do
> something that would take 1 line in SC.
> > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, let
> me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. Coding vs
> dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical)
> programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of them
> whether they think it would be better to program in that way and you're
> likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great programming
> with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said
> that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C
> modules.
> > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that exposes
> what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I would like
> to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest points,
> print them and post them all over town.
> > >
> > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have my
> pill now.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Uri
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > sc-users mailing list
> > >
> > > info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> > > archive:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> > > search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sc-users mailing list
> >
> > info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> > archive:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> > search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sc-users mailing list
>
> info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>
--
http://www.mcld.co.uk
_______________________________________________
sc-users mailing list
info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
Disagreement is good, please carry on.
In my experience, what you call "anti-MSP discourse" is actually quite
rare, but in a sense it's a necessary conversation: max and sc (and
all the other environments that offer similar possibilities) have
different learning curves and make different things difficult/easy,
and the typing-vs-patching aspect is an important factor. I for one
would like to read more research on this topic - I only rarely use
patcher languages myself, and so I have little personal experience of
managing a large project using one, so I'd like to read studies which
investigate these issues.
Dan
2009/4/24, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@...>:
> Sorry to disagree here.
>
> As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them going
> within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug and play is the base of
> it.
>
> SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse pedagogy and
> DSP.
>
> And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I play bass
> at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I have a professional
> luthier for this.
>
> No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC community is
> probably one of the reason why its growth is still modest despite SC being a
> fantastic, different, complementary tool.
>
> hugs from the North of England
>
> pa
>
>
>
> Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
>
>
>
> > As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play out
> instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and you can't
> program in a proper programming language, then you're the student who hasn't
> practiced their scales.
> >
> > From a music grad who made into computer science academia before going
> back to music ;)
> > Lorien
> > Uri Sala wrote:
> >
> > > Dear list,
> > > Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been using
> Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at school have a hard
> time grasping the concepts of electronic music. I am totally convinced that
> if they used SC they would learn much faster. Can anybody explain to my why
> the myth that coding is hard and that having a screen full of spaghetti
> makes it easier to program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean,
> really. Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic music
> student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that is, a nice GUI,
> and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think that, under that nice
> looking main patch is hidden a maze of subpatches, until they start patching
> themselves. I am sure that, eventually along the line, every Max user gets
> the "god there are so many cables and windows open, maybe text would
> actually be better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week.
> > > I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my strong
> feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a teacher tries to
> shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen with nonsense to do
> something that would take 1 line in SC.
> > > Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference. Well, let
> me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a valid dilemma. Coding vs
> dragging is not. Just look around. Do you know any (non musical)
> programmers? What do they use? Little boxes and cables? Ask any of them
> whether they think it would be better to program in that way and you're
> likely to get a laugh. Of course many people have done great programming
> with Max. I once ate a soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said
> that Max was not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C
> modules.
> > > I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that exposes
> what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If not, I would like
> to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to collect the strongest points,
> print them and post them all over town.
> > >
> > > Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will have my
> pill now.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Uri
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > sc-users mailing list
> > >
> > > info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> > > archive:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> > > search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sc-users mailing list
> >
> > info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> > archive:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> > search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sc-users mailing list
>
> info (subscription, etc.):
> http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> search:
> http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>
--
http://www.mcld.co.uk
_______________________________________________
sc-users mailing list
info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
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