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Re: Coding vs patching: would you eat soup with a fork?
by Scott Wilson-3
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Hey PA,
On 24 Apr 2009, at 10:39, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> Sorry to disagree here.
No need to apologise.
>
>
> As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them
> going within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug and play is
> the base of it.
>
> SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse
> pedagogy and DSP.
I think you're maybe equating your (rather impressive!) familiarity
with Max as opposed to SC with pedagogical accessibility.
It may be that it's a little easier to get 11 year olds to connect a
patch cord than to assign something to a variable, but I would
maintain that if you're talking about getting students (let's be
general as I think it's safe to say that the 11 year old case is
exceptional) to do something useful the difference is not so great,
and I say that based on years of experience teaching both. Max may be
arguably easier for steps 1 and 2, but it's curve goes up rather fast,
and as you say complex stuff is easier in SC. (Steps 100-200 can be a
real pain in Max.)
>
> And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I
> play bass at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I
> have a professional luthier for this.
Your bass analogy doesn't fit, I think, as you're comparing output
with design issues. Max does not scale well, but it is still possible
to make good music with it. It is still possible to make good music
with a poorly designed bass, but it is true that depending on what
you're playing, the instrument may limit you or make you work harder.
Design still has its advantages, and those issues are worth discussing.
(I should say that I don't think that Max was poorly designed in
general, but I do think it has suffered increasingly from growing
pains as it has moved beyod Miller's original intentions for it.)
>
>
> No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC
> community is probably one of the reason why its growth is still
> modest despite SC being a fantastic, different, complementary tool.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here, as I don't think the SC
community is anti-MSP in particular. (Although I have a funny feeling
you might be referring to me? Did I say something offensive the last
time we had a scotch together? ;-)
I don't think anyone here is saying anything that prominent Max users
haven't also said. To be fair I can't think of anything that comes
close to the 'James McCartney is selfish anti-Max free software
zealot' discussions that spring up periodically on the Max list.
Certainly discussing differences in philosophy and design can be
useful for everyone involved, so let's not try to discourage that.
>
>
> hugs from the North of England
>
Ahhh....
> pa
>
PS Are you coming in May? I want a real hug...
>
>
> Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
>
>> As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play
>> out instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and
>> you can't program in a proper programming language, then you're the
>> student who hasn't practiced their scales.
>>
>> From a music grad who made into computer science academia before
>> going back to music ;)
>> Lorien
>> Uri Sala wrote:
>>> Dear list,
>>> Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
>>> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
>>> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been
>>> using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at
>>> school have a hard time grasping the concepts of electronic music.
>>> I am totally convinced that if they used SC they would learn much
>>> faster. Can anybody explain to my why the myth that coding is hard
>>> and that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to
>>> program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really.
>>> Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic
>>> music student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that
>>> is, a nice GUI, and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think
>>> that, under that nice looking main patch is hidden a maze of
>>> subpatches, until they start patching themselves. I am sure that,
>>> eventually along the line, every Max user gets the "god there are
>>> so many cables and windows open, maybe text would actually be
>>> better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week.
>>> I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my
>>> strong feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a
>>> teacher tries to shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen
>>> with nonsense to do something that would take 1 line in SC.
>>> Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference.
>>> Well, let me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a
>>> valid dilemma. Coding vs dragging is not. Just look around. Do you
>>> know any (non musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes
>>> and cables? Ask any of them whether they think it would be better
>>> to program in that way and you're likely to get a laugh. Of course
>>> many people have done great programming with Max. I once ate a
>>> soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said that Max was
>>> not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C
>>> modules.
>>> I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that
>>> exposes what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If
>>> not, I would like to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to
>>> collect the strongest points, print them and post them all over
>>> town.
>>>
>>> Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will
>>> have my pill now.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Uri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sc-users mailing list
>>>
>>> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sc-users mailing list
>>
>> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sc-users mailing list
>
> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
_______________________________________________
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info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
On 24 Apr 2009, at 10:39, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> Sorry to disagree here.
No need to apologise.
>
>
> As much as I like SC, I can take MSP to 11 years old and get them
> going within an hour. Not with SC. The intuitive plug and play is
> the base of it.
>
> SC is better to do more complex stuff, please do not confuse
> pedagogy and DSP.
I think you're maybe equating your (rather impressive!) familiarity
with Max as opposed to SC with pedagogical accessibility.
It may be that it's a little easier to get 11 year olds to connect a
patch cord than to assign something to a variable, but I would
maintain that if you're talking about getting students (let's be
general as I think it's safe to say that the 11 year old case is
exceptional) to do something useful the difference is not so great,
and I say that based on years of experience teaching both. Max may be
arguably easier for steps 1 and 2, but it's curve goes up rather fast,
and as you say complex stuff is easier in SC. (Steps 100-200 can be a
real pain in Max.)
>
> And most of the best computer music I've heard is made by completely
> computer illiterate, so the scale analogy is completely flawed. I
> play bass at professional level, but don't ask me to build one. I
> have a professional luthier for this.
Your bass analogy doesn't fit, I think, as you're comparing output
with design issues. Max does not scale well, but it is still possible
to make good music with it. It is still possible to make good music
with a poorly designed bass, but it is true that depending on what
you're playing, the instrument may limit you or make you work harder.
Design still has its advantages, and those issues are worth discussing.
(I should say that I don't think that Max was poorly designed in
general, but I do think it has suffered increasingly from growing
pains as it has moved beyod Miller's original intentions for it.)
>
>
> No flame starting here, but the anti-MSP discourse of the SC
> community is probably one of the reason why its growth is still
> modest despite SC being a fantastic, different, complementary tool.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here, as I don't think the SC
community is anti-MSP in particular. (Although I have a funny feeling
you might be referring to me? Did I say something offensive the last
time we had a scotch together? ;-)
I don't think anyone here is saying anything that prominent Max users
haven't also said. To be fair I can't think of anything that comes
close to the 'James McCartney is selfish anti-Max free software
zealot' discussions that spring up periodically on the Max list.
Certainly discussing differences in philosophy and design can be
useful for everyone involved, so let's not try to discourage that.
>
>
> hugs from the North of England
>
Ahhh....
> pa
>
PS Are you coming in May? I want a real hug...
>
>
> Le 09-04-24 à 10:26, Lorien Dunn a écrit :
>
>> As musicians we should at least be humble enough to learn to play
>> out instruments well. If the computer is your chosen instrument and
>> you can't program in a proper programming language, then you're the
>> student who hasn't practiced their scales.
>>
>> From a music grad who made into computer science academia before
>> going back to music ;)
>> Lorien
>> Uri Sala wrote:
>>> Dear list,
>>> Would you give someone a fork to eat soup? Sorry about the cheap
>>> analogy, but it breaks my heart every time I think that 75% of the
>>> theoretical knowledge I have received in electronic music has been
>>> using Max/MSP. Most of the young and more inexperienced guys at
>>> school have a hard time grasping the concepts of electronic music.
>>> I am totally convinced that if they used SC they would learn much
>>> faster. Can anybody explain to my why the myth that coding is hard
>>> and that having a screen full of spaghetti makes it easier to
>>> program is still in vogue? I really don't get it. I mean, really.
>>> Actually I do, or I think I do. When the beginning electronic
>>> music student sees a Max patch, he only sees the end result, that
>>> is, a nice GUI, and thinks WOW, max looks neat. They never think
>>> that, under that nice looking main patch is hidden a maze of
>>> subpatches, until they start patching themselves. I am sure that,
>>> eventually along the line, every Max user gets the "god there are
>>> so many cables and windows open, maybe text would actually be
>>> better" - kind of feeling. I did, only it took me about a week.
>>> I am quite known among my friends in the conservatory for my
>>> strong feelings about SC, and my increasing unease every time a
>>> teacher tries to shove Max down our throats, clogging the screen
>>> with nonsense to do something that would take 1 line in SC.
>>> Some people might argue it is a matter of personal preference.
>>> Well, let me get intransigent: it is not. Ruby vs Python is a
>>> valid dilemma. Coding vs dragging is not. Just look around. Do you
>>> know any (non musical) programmers? What do they use? Little boxes
>>> and cables? Ask any of them whether they think it would be better
>>> to program in that way and you're likely to get a laugh. Of course
>>> many people have done great programming with Max. I once ate a
>>> soup with a fork too. Hey, even Miller Puckette said that Max was
>>> not thought out to program with, just to use as patcher for C
>>> modules.
>>> I wanted to ask whether anyone knows of a text somewhere that
>>> exposes what I just said in more objective, less altered terms? If
>>> not, I would like to know the opinion of the forum. I promise to
>>> collect the strongest points, print them and post them all over
>>> town.
>>>
>>> Sorry about the rant, but I cannot stand bad reasoning. I will
>>> have my pill now.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Uri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sc-users mailing list
>>>
>>> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sc-users mailing list
>>
>> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
>> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
>> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sc-users mailing list
>
> info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
> archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
> search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
_______________________________________________
sc-users mailing list
info (subscription, etc.): http://www.beast.bham.ac.uk/research/sc_mailing_lists.shtml
archive: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/marchives/sc-users/
search: http://www.listarc.bham.ac.uk/lists/sc-users/search/
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