Re: Fedora 11 on Hercules

Pardon the confusion.  It was absolutely not my intention to suggest
other distros will not run on Hercules.   Hercules being what it is,
anything that can run on IBM's documented architecture (Principles of
Operations) runs on Hercules.  So, no Linux distribution has
specifically precluded Hercules, but few have taken interest in making
it easy to use with it.

Frans Pop wrote:
I do not think I said that.  However, the last time that I am aware that
Debian provided a pre-installed disk image, the only distro to actually
have done so, was years ago.  The distinction that I am making is that
it has been very rare for a distro to provide support TARGETED for use
on Hercules.

>
>Installing Debian in Hercules is just as trivial as installing Debian on
>any of the other platforms Debian supports, and obviously installing gcc
>is (and always has been) as simple as 'apt-get install gcc', along with
>some 24,000 other packages (only counting the 'main' archive).
>
Trivial is in the eye of the beholder.  That probably explains why I
don't have debian anywhere.  To assume what is easy for you and no doubt
some others, doesn't mean it is for everyone.  Having worked with Debian
for five years as your primary system does not surprise anyone that you
would see it as such.  Do, you also run Devian as your host?

>
>Oh, and I've been cross-compiling my s390 kernels without any problems on
>x86_64 for some time now using the cross-toolchain packages from
>Emdebian.
>

When I first looked at doing this some years ago, I was certainly
unaware of these packages if they existed.  To download the source and
create a complete cross-compiler toolchain from scratch, so to speak, is
frought with numerous issues and challenges.  I gave up trying to
overcome them. And,  I had moved away from the need deciding to stay
with assembler.

>
>I'm happy that you've found an environment that works for you (choice is
>good + freedom to choose and all that). What I don't get is that you seem
>to imply that the availability of such an environment is something
>completely new.
>
Not new.  But readily achieved by a novice, yes, I believe that is, if
not new, has not been a goal for anyone for some time.  And I put myself
in that category for Linux.  There are probably a number of others on
these lists that would also put themselves in that category.  So, for
me, yes, new.

>I installed my primairy s390 system in Hercules almost 5 years ago and
>it's been running Debian unstable happily ever since.
>
All of which presupposes you have Debian installed.  So if you are
challenged, as I acknowledge myself to be, or have too many false starts
attempting to do so, which I did, you have the proverbial
chicken-and-egg problem.

I see this in the same light at the MVS Turnkey system.  Can one install
from scratch MVS on Hercules?  Yes.  Does everyone want to try?  No.  
Maybe you have the expertise to do so, but most do not.  For many in
this community, the same could be said for Linux.  Witness the large
number of Hercules users running Hercules on Windows.  

If Debian had continued the practice, we might not be having this
exchange.  Depending of course on your personal expertise, such may be
perceived as superfluous.  Obviously, it was not perceived by Debian to
be of sufficient value to continue and you certainly see it as superflous.

My first SuSE system I installed over the Internet from Germany onto my
system in the United States.  I figured years later I should be able to
do the same with Debian for Hercules.  So, as recently as a year ago I
attempted downloading Debian for s390.  Jigdo was too much of a
frustration due to inconsistent results.  And of course, it certainly
isn't going to run on a Windows system.

Obviously YMMV applies.  My personal experience with Debian has been
unpleasant.  My personal experience with Fedora 11 the exact opposite.  
Novell doesn't even give me an option with openSUSE.  Will others have
the reverse experiences?  Probably.

That no tweaking was needed for this to work was impressive.  It is
always gratifying when things just work.