Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by Bogac Topaktas
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If your budget allows, use floating-point DSP (for instance Sharc), the development effort would be much less..and you would not re-invent the wheel for elementary effects: http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/application_notes/21065L_Audio_T utorial.pdf If your budget requires a fixed-point DSP, you may check out Chameleon Developer Resource pages for tutorials and example source code (for Motorola/Freescale DSP56xxx platform): http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/developers/resources.shtml http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/developers/techdocs.shtml -------- Original Message -------- > From: "Amusing Muses" <amusingmuses@...> > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 9:55 PM > To: music-dsp@... > Subject: [music-dsp] Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP? > > Hi I'm investigating the Blackfin as a platform for a music DSP > toolkit, unfortunately all the examples for simple effects like > choruses & flangers I can find utilize floating-point > arithmetic--which cripples their performance on the Blackfin because > it has no FPU. > > Does anyone know of any open source DSP effects packages that use > fixed-point arithmetic? Could save me a bunch of time rewriting these > effects myself... or should I just use a floating-point DSP? I'm > looking for something that is supported well by open source tools > (gcc, u-boot, Linux, etc) and that is low-cost enough for a high > volume consumer product... The Blackfin meets these requirements > except the lack of floating-point is turning out to be a hassle. Any > suggestions? > > Thanks. > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by B.J. Buchalter
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On Oct 8, 2009, at 4:21 PM, Bogac Topaktas wrote: > > If your budget allows, use floating-point DSP (for instance Sharc), > the > development effort would be much less..and you would not re-invent > the wheel for elementary effects: > > http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/application_notes/21065L_Audio_T > utorial.pdf > > If your budget requires a fixed-point DSP, you may check out Chameleon > Developer Resource > pages for tutorials and example source code (for Motorola/Freescale > DSP56xxx platform): > > http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/developers/resources.shtml > http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/developers/techdocs.shtml But neither of these supports linux or a standard tool-chain -- so if that is really important, then they are out. Don't know about pricing, but you might want to look at some of the newer TI parts that have an ARM that can run linux and a floating point DSP core on the same chip. Or, if your DSP needs are small enough, you may want to look at an ARM part. B.J. Buchalter Metric Halo http://www.mhlabs.com -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by bastian.schnuerle
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what does ARM mean ?
Am 08.10.2009 um 22:31 schrieb B.J. Buchalter: > > On Oct 8, 2009, at 4:21 PM, Bogac Topaktas wrote: > >> >> If your budget allows, use floating-point DSP (for instance Sharc), >> the >> development effort would be much less..and you would not re-invent >> the wheel for elementary effects: >> >> http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/application_notes/ >> 21065L_Audio_T >> utorial.pdf >> >> If your budget requires a fixed-point DSP, you may check out >> Chameleon >> Developer Resource >> pages for tutorials and example source code (for Motorola/Freescale >> DSP56xxx platform): >> >> http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/developers/resources.shtml >> http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/developers/techdocs.shtml > > But neither of these supports linux or a standard tool-chain -- so if > that is really important, then they are out. > > Don't know about pricing, but you might want to look at some of the > newer TI parts that have an ARM that can run linux and a floating > point DSP core on the same chip. Or, if your DSP needs are small > enough, you may want to look at an ARM part. > > B.J. Buchalter > Metric Halo > http://www.mhlabs.com > > > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book > reviews, dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by Daniel C. Heidebrecht
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it's a risc architecture used mostly in low power and embedded devices:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 2:44 PM, bastian.schnuerle <bastian.schnuerle@...> wrote: > what does ARM mean ? > > Am 08.10.2009 um 22:31 schrieb B.J. Buchalter: > >> >> On Oct 8, 2009, at 4:21 PM, Bogac Topaktas wrote: >> >>> >>> If your budget allows, use floating-point DSP (for instance Sharc), >>> the >>> development effort would be much less..and you would not re-invent >>> the wheel for elementary effects: >>> >>> http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/application_notes/ >>> 21065L_Audio_T >>> utorial.pdf >>> >>> If your budget requires a fixed-point DSP, you may check out >>> Chameleon >>> Developer Resource >>> pages for tutorials and example source code (for Motorola/Freescale >>> DSP56xxx platform): >>> >>> http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/developers/resources.shtml >>> http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/developers/techdocs.shtml >> >> But neither of these supports linux or a standard tool-chain -- so if >> that is really important, then they are out. >> >> Don't know about pricing, but you might want to look at some of the >> newer TI parts that have an ARM that can run linux and a floating >> point DSP core on the same chip. Or, if your DSP needs are small >> enough, you may want to look at an ARM part. >> >> B.J. Buchalter >> Metric Halo >> http://www.mhlabs.com >> >> >> >> -- >> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: >> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book >> reviews, dsp links >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp >> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by Eric Brombaugh-2
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On 10/08/2009 01:44 PM, bastian.schnuerle wrote:
> what does ARM mean ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_RISC_Machines -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by contact-68
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> On 10/08/2009 01:44 PM, bastian.schnuerle wrote:
>> what does ARM mean ? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_RISC_Machines I remember the ARM2 on the Archimedes! Always thought it was the way everything was heading - back in the 80's! Only about 45 instructions, yet powerful enough to have 16 usable registers, and multiply two different registers and add another and put the result into yet another register - all in one instruction - great fun. *old computer nerd mode off* Dave -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by jpff-2
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>>>>> "c" == contact <contact@...> writes:
>> On 10/08/2009 01:44 PM, bastian.schnuerle wrote: >>> what does ARM mean ? >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_RISC_Machines c> I remember the ARM2 on the Archimedes! Always thought it was the way c> everything was heading - back in the 80's! c> Only about 45 instructions, yet powerful enough to have 16 usable registers, c> and multiply two different registers and add another and put the result into c> yet another register - all in one instruction - great fun. c> *old computer nerd mode off* *Very old computer nerd mode on* An ARM had (has) an outstanding C compiler *off and back to lurking* ==John ffitch -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by Stephen Sinclair
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Just wondering on this topic, has anyone used the gumstix Overo +
Summit expansion board for real-time DSP processing? It provides a stereo in/out pair for audio, comes to ~ $250.. http://www.gumstix.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=220 Wondering how well it works for doing embedded audio stuff. (With or without Linux..) Steve On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:03 AM, jpff <jpff@...> wrote: >>>>>> "c" == contact <contact@...> writes: > > >> On 10/08/2009 01:44 PM, bastian.schnuerle wrote: > >>> what does ARM mean ? > >> > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_RISC_Machines > > c> I remember the ARM2 on the Archimedes! Always thought it was the way > c> everything was heading - back in the 80's! > c> Only about 45 instructions, yet powerful enough to have 16 usable registers, > c> and multiply two different registers and add another and put the result into > c> yet another register - all in one instruction - great fun. > c> *old computer nerd mode off* > > *Very old computer nerd mode on* > > An ARM had (has) an outstanding C compiler > > *off and back to lurking* > ==John ffitch > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by Amusing Muses
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On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Bogac Topaktas <bogac@...> wrote:
> > What will be your production volume? Will you design your own board? > Going for high volume with a custom PCB. Power consumption is an optional concern. I do intend to have a custom board designed, but not going to do any custom VLSI to design my own DSP or anything. > If the volume is relatively low and power consumption is not an issue then > consider an off-the-shelf x86 based board for the most open development > environment. Some large mixing desks (i.e. Harrison) and some sophisticated > keyboards (i.e. Korg OASYS) employ x86 for embedded audio DSP. I feel > that this trend will continue.. > > On the other hand, if the production volume is high then you will want to do whatever > it takes to save the last penny per unit cost. This will involve designing a dedicated board > around a dedicated DSP chip. Initial development effort/cost will not be a big deal since the > high production volume will compensate it. > > When the clock frequencies are above 100Mhz, PCB design becomes rather tricky due > to signal integrity issues. You will need at least four layers to keep everything under control. > And you will also need CAD software with signal integrity aware auto-routers. > It would be a nightmare to design a RF safe four-layer PCB with open source tools like Kicad at > clock frequencies above 100Mhz. > Thanks for pointing this issue out, me and my novice engineers were unaware of this consideration... could you recommend such a CAD software that could do this type of auto-routing? Best Regards, -A -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by volker böhm
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not a lot i could tell you here, but i managed to run PDa (a pure data
port for integer cpus) on a gumstix verdex with the audiostix expansion. it worked for basic synthesis quite well. i didn't do any extended tests or benchmarking, though. i suppose it should work for overo+summit just the same. volker. On 09.10.2009, at 18:50, Stephen Sinclair wrote: > Just wondering on this topic, has anyone used the gumstix Overo + > Summit expansion board for real-time DSP processing? It provides a > stereo in/out pair for audio, comes to ~ $250.. > > http://www.gumstix.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=220 > > Wondering how well it works for doing embedded audio stuff. (With or > without Linux..) > > Steve > -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by Amusing Muses
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On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Bogac Topaktas <bogac@...> wrote:
> > If power consumption is an optional concern then a floating-point processor > (although they consume relatively more power than fixed-point processors) > would be a good choice for ease of development. However, if production > volume is really high then a fixed-point processor (as they cost much less > than floating-point processors) would be more suitable financially. > The initial run should be around 10k - 100k units. But if things really take off we could be making a few million units per year. Would either of these classify as high volume? I've heard ~100,000 units/month is "high volume" in the electronics game. So I want to start off with a floating-point processor for the ease of development allowing me to get prototypes done quickly, but I might have to switch to a fixed-point DSP when I start mass producing. How hard is it usually, to port music-dsp algorithms from floating-point to fixed-point math? From my initial investigation: it's a pain. Are there any tools that automate or help out with this process? Or good resources for people doing this? > In embedded high-end audio applications, two DSP families are widely used: > DSP56xxx family of fixed-point devices from Motorola/Freescale and Sharc > family of floating-point devices from Analog Devices. Since the production > volume will be high, chip vendors may offer you the development tools (i.e. > evaluation boards, sample chips and especially licenses for full IDE > suites) for free, so do not forget to ask this first! I suggest you to get > the most proper development tools as they do save a lot of time and > effort. > Will keep that in mind, I mentioned I want to use open source tools though... this is not because of the cost. This is because part of the goal of my project is to be a mass-market friendly /and/ open source friendly, highly configurable consumer product. Being OSS compatible makes products really awesome in my opinion e.g. Linksys WRT54GL, the consumer router ever. So I would rather port GCC to the SHARC if that's what it takes, rather than get VisualDSP for free. > Please be aware that designing for signal integrity involves much more then > properly routing PCB traces (i.e. considering board geometry, component > layout, layer organization etc.). Therefore, a signal integrity aware > auto-router alone can not do all the work. > > If your team does not have previous experience in RF safe design then I > suggest you to either consult to a third-party or master the contents of > Dr. Howard Johnson's books (see http://www.sigcon.com ) before designing > the first prototype (i.e. revising a faulty PCB design, re-manufacturing > new PCBs, re-soldering components and re-testing costs more than paying for > a consultant). > Wow that's a great insight to have, I'll be careful when it comes time to design the PCB and use your advice. > Most DSP chip vendors employ application engineers who specialize in RF > safe design. As a free (or sometimes on a paid basis) service to their > customers, these engineers provide consulting services and author > application notes on RF safe design for their particular chips. So do not > forget to check this too. > Also good to know! Thanks. -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: Fixed-point effects lib? Linux friendly floating-point DSP?
by Gwenhwyfaer
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On 15/10/2009, Amusing Muses <amusingmuses@...> wrote:
> The initial run should be around 10k - 100k units. But if things > really take off we could be making a few million units per year. Would > either of these classify as high volume? I've heard ~100,000 > units/month is "high volume" in the electronics game. Bear in mind that in the pro audio game you're doing really well if you manage to sell 10k units... *EVER*. The biggest selling synth in the history of production - and it really was a runaway success - is only estimated to have sold 250k (the Korg M1); the number of synths that sold 6 figures can be counted on one hand (or at any rate, one pair of them). And that's not because they didn't crack the market - that IS the market. So if you're talking high volume, you're either explicitly targeting the consumer market, at which point you'll be looking at making everything as intensely cheap as possible (even to the point of view of hiring a chip designer and fabbing your own hardware - sure, the startup cost will be hideous, but for millions of units it'll probably be worth it. In which case, you need to be checking out FPGAs right now, and not worrying about DSP chips)... or you're being vastly over-optimistic. (Not saying it's impossible for you to do that well. Am saying that it's much better to be surprised by runaway success than by catastrophic failure.) And on that cautionary note... *shuffles off back to the comfy chair* -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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