Re: Glossary sorting in Japanese

[Jirka Kosek]

Akagi Kobayashi wrote:

> I'm told that I should be able to use the primary tag and sortas attribute,
> in combination with glossterm. What do you think?

primary element is used for creating back-of-the-book index, not for
glossaries.

> If an entry should be sorted in a different way than it is displayed, then
> we can use the sortas attribute. During index grouping and sorting, the text
> of the entry is ignored and the sortas attribute is then used instead. This
> can be useful in situations when an index entry contains special symbols
> that should sort differently; for example, based on their phonetic
> representation. The following example creates an index entry that will
> result in the Kanji $BBgOB(B displayed in the index, but this letter will be put
> in the place of word "$B$d$^$H(B"
>
> <indexterm>
> <primary sortas="$B$d$^$H(B">$BBgOB(B</primary>
> </indexterm>

It seems that your Japanese characters haven't survived email transfer.

> At the moment the ja.xml's <l:letters lang= is set to "en".  Should this be
> set to ja, as well as assigning the various Japanese syllabary characters?

Yes. But please note that this table is used by "Kosek" indexing method.
This method is suitable for sorting and grouping for latin based
languages, when the sort order is defined by order of characters.

My knowledge of CJKV languages is very limited. My understanding is that
in Kanji sort order is based on radical, and "Kosek" indexing method
doesn't support this. I do not know enough about sorting of Hiragana and
Katakana written text, so I can't confirm that it is possible to create
l:letters for those scripts.

For Japanese you can be more successful using "Kimber" indexing method.
It is little but complicated to setup, but has much better support for
CJKV languages.

For more information about setup see:

http://docbook.sourceforge.net/release/xsl/current/doc/html/index.method.html

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[Jirka Kosek]

Akagi Kobayashi wrote:

> The Kosek method can be used successfully to sort Hiragana and Katanakana
> characters (I'm sure). I have added those after the alphabet to the sort
> list. Attaching the test xml fyi.

I haven't received file, but I would be happy to add it into standard
distribution. You can send it to me off-list.

> Before I look into the Kimber method - I have an idea for sorting words in
> kanji.
>
> Could you tell me whether using the glossentry id= link might work? This is
> explained in Chapter 16 - Linking to a glossary entry
> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/LinkToGlossary.html
> So the kanji word will be set as the glossterm; and its reading in hiragana
> will be set as the glossentry id.

You can do this, but stylesheets doesn't support sorting of glossterms
based on id values, so you will have to customize stylesheets.

I think that adding sortas attribute to glossterm is the right solution.
If time permits we will discuss this request during today's DocBook TC
meeting.

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[Akagi K]

Further to the glossary sorting issue in Japanese, we are using the id for glossentry and notice that they DO GET SORTED, but in an arbitrary manner. Is this a fluke, or is there some sort order that is influencing it? What might that be, so that I can edit it?

Thanks
Akagi

Jirka Kosek wrote:

Akagi Kobayashi wrote:

> The Kosek method can be used successfully to sort Hiragana and Katanakana
> characters (I'm sure). I have added those after the alphabet to the sort
> list. Attaching the test xml fyi.

I haven't received file, but I would be happy to add it into standard
distribution. You can send it to me off-list.

> Before I look into the Kimber method - I have an idea for sorting words in
> kanji.
>
> Could you tell me whether using the glossentry id= link might work? This is
> explained in Chapter 16 - Linking to a glossary entry
> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/LinkToGlossary.html
> So the kanji word will be set as the glossterm; and its reading in hiragana
> will be set as the glossentry id.

You can do this, but stylesheets doesn't support sorting of glossterms
based on id values, so you will have to customize stylesheets.

I think that adding sortas attribute to glossterm is the right solution.
If time permits we will discuss this request during today's DocBook TC
meeting.

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[David Cramer (Tech Pubs)]

Actually, the glossentry element already takes a sortas attribute:
http://docbook.org/tdg/en/html/glossentry.html
but it appears that the xsls aren't currently using it. You should be
able add the Hiragana or Katanakana versions to the sortas on the
glossentry and then do this in the templates from glossary.xsl in your
customization layer (using the same concat trick from autoidx-kosek.xsl
and autoidx-kimber.xsl):

<xsl:sort lang="{$language}" select="translate(concat(@sortas,
glossterm[not(parent::glossentry/@sortas) or parent::glossentry/@sortas
= '']), &lowercase;, &uppercase;)"/>

Instead of the current:

<xsl:sort lang="{$language}" select="translate(glossterm, &lowercase;,
&uppercase;)"/>

This line appears more than once, so change them all. This is a bug in
the xsls, so please log it at sourceforge if it's not there already. I
would love to see the kosek and kimber approaches applied to the
glossary too for grouping glossterms into glossdivs in the same way
indexterms are automatically grouped into indexdivs.


Also, I'm surprised by the need to translate all the characters to the
same case. Is that really required?

David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Akagi K [mailto:akobayashi@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 12:10 PM
> To: docbook-apps@...
> Subject: Re: [docbook-apps] Glossary sorting in Japanese
>
>
> Further to the glossary sorting issue in Japanese, we are
> using the id for glossentry and notice that they DO GET
> SORTED, but in an arbitrary manner.
> Is this a fluke, or is there some sort order that is
> influencing it? What might that be, so that I can edit it?
>
> Thanks
> Akagi
>
>
> Jirka Kosek wrote:
> >
> > Akagi Kobayashi wrote:
> >
> >> The Kosek method can be used successfully to sort Hiragana and
> >> Katanakana characters (I'm sure). I have added those after the
> >> alphabet to the sort list. Attaching the test xml fyi.
> >
> > I haven't received file, but I would be happy to add it
> into standard
> > distribution. You can send it to me off-list.
> >
> >> Before I look into the Kimber method - I have an idea for sorting
> >> words in kanji.
> >>
> >> Could you tell me whether using the glossentry id= link
> might work?
> >> This is explained in Chapter 16 - Linking to a glossary entry
> >> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/LinkToGlossary.html
> >> So the kanji word will be set as the glossterm; and its reading in
> >> hiragana will be set as the glossentry id.
> >
> > You can do this, but stylesheets doesn't support sorting of
> glossterms
> > based on id values, so you will have to customize stylesheets.
> >
> > I think that adding sortas attribute to glossterm is the
> right solution.
> > If time permits we will discuss this request during today's
> DocBook TC
> > meeting.
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >   Jirka Kosek      e-mail: jirka@...      http://xmlguru.cz
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >        Professional XML consulting and training services
> >   DocBook customization, custom XSLT/XSL-FO document processing
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  OASIS DocBook TC member, W3C Invited Expert, ISO/JTC1/SC34 member
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  Want to speak at XML Prague 2007 => http://xmlprague.cz/cfp.html
> >
> >
> >  
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Glossary-sorting-in-Japanese-tp101

76176p14402503.html
> Sent from the docbook apps mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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[Jirka Kosek]

David Cramer wrote:

> This line appears more than once, so change them all. This is a bug in
> the xsls, so please log it at sourceforge if it's not there already. I
> would love to see the kosek and kimber approaches applied to the
> glossary too for grouping glossterms into glossdivs in the same way
> indexterms are automatically grouped into indexdivs.

So please file it as a new RFE at sourceforge.

> Also, I'm surprised by the need to translate all the characters to the
> same case. Is that really required?

Definition of &lowercase; and &uppercase; is such it converts accented
letters to unaccented ones -- this might be useful when you have foreign
terms in English, but for majority of languages you will need something
completely different like kosek or kimber method used for indexing.

                        Jirka

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  DocBook customization, custom XSLT/XSL-FO document processing
------------------------------------------------------------------
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[David Cramer (Tech Pubs)]

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jirka Kosek [mailto:jirka@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:03 AM
> To: David Cramer
> Cc: Akagi K; docbook-apps@...
> Subject: Re: [docbook-apps] Glossary sorting in Japanese
>
> David Cramer wrote:
>
> > This line appears more than once, so change them all. This
> is a bug in
> > the xsls, so please log it at sourceforge if it's not there
> already. I
> > would love to see the kosek and kimber approaches applied to the
> > glossary too for grouping glossterms into glossdivs in the same way
> > indexterms are automatically grouped into indexdivs.
>
> So please file it as a new RFE at sourceforge.

Done:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1854194&group_i
d=21935&atid=373750

I went ahead and logged the sortas one too:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1854199&group_i
d=21935&atid=373747

David

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[Richard Hamilton-2]

A few thoughts on this:

The sortas glossary sorting fix should also work with the
fo stylesheets.  I did a similar quick fix with Akagi-san
a few months ago and it worked well (then I forgot about
it entirely, or I would have filed an RFE myself; my bad:).

There are a few differences in the way I did this that may
be worth considering:

- I put the concat(.....) function inside an entity, then
  used the entity in each occurrence rather than copy all
  that code.  Since this happens in a bunch more places in
  the fo code, it seemed like the cleanest way to go.
- I wrapped the concat(.....) inside a normalize-space
  function.  This may just be belts and suspenders, but
  it does mean that a stray space in a sortas or glossterm
  value won't muck things up.

Also, it looks like the latest stylesheets assign the lowercase
and uppercase entities to a variable of the same name and use
that instead.  I'm not sure why, but it does mean that the code
should probably use $lowercase and $uppercase instead of &uppercase;
and &lowercase;.

Sorry I didn't file an RFE when this first came up, it would
have saved at least a little trouble.

Dick Hamilton

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Cramer [mailto:dcramer@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 3:04 PM
> To: Akagi K; docbook-apps@...
> Subject: RE: [docbook-apps] Glossary sorting in Japanese
>
>
> Actually, the glossentry element already takes a sortas attribute:
> http://docbook.org/tdg/en/html/glossentry.html
> but it appears that the xsls aren't currently using it. You should be
> able add the Hiragana or Katanakana versions to the sortas on the
> glossentry and then do this in the templates from glossary.xsl in your
> customization layer (using the same concat trick from
> autoidx-kosek.xsl
> and autoidx-kimber.xsl):
>
> <xsl:sort lang="{$language}" select="translate(concat(@sortas,
> glossterm[not(parent::glossentry/@sortas) or
> parent::glossentry/@sortas
> = '']), &lowercase;, &uppercase;)"/>
>
> Instead of the current:
>
> <xsl:sort lang="{$language}" select="translate(glossterm, &lowercase;,
> &uppercase;)"/>
>
> This line appears more than once, so change them all. This is a bug in
> the xsls, so please log it at sourceforge if it's not there already. I
> would love to see the kosek and kimber approaches applied to the
> glossary too for grouping glossterms into glossdivs in the same way
> indexterms are automatically grouped into indexdivs.
>
>
> Also, I'm surprised by the need to translate all the characters to the
> same case. Is that really required?
>
> David
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Akagi K [mailto:akobayashi@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 12:10 PM
> > To: docbook-apps@...
> > Subject: Re: [docbook-apps] Glossary sorting in Japanese
> >
> >
> > Further to the glossary sorting issue in Japanese, we are
> > using the id for glossentry and notice that they DO GET
> > SORTED, but in an arbitrary manner.
> > Is this a fluke, or is there some sort order that is
> > influencing it? What might that be, so that I can edit it?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Akagi
> >
> >
> > Jirka Kosek wrote:
> > >
> > > Akagi Kobayashi wrote:
> > >
> > >> The Kosek method can be used successfully to sort Hiragana and
> > >> Katanakana characters (I'm sure). I have added those after the
> > >> alphabet to the sort list. Attaching the test xml fyi.
> > >
> > > I haven't received file, but I would be happy to add it
> > into standard
> > > distribution. You can send it to me off-list.
> > >
> > >> Before I look into the Kimber method - I have an idea
> for sorting
> > >> words in kanji.
> > >>
> > >> Could you tell me whether using the glossentry id= link
> > might work?
> > >> This is explained in Chapter 16 - Linking to a glossary entry
> > >> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/LinkToGlossary.html
> > >> So the kanji word will be set as the glossterm; and its
> reading in
> > >> hiragana will be set as the glossentry id.
> > >
> > > You can do this, but stylesheets doesn't support sorting of
> > glossterms
> > > based on id values, so you will have to customize stylesheets.
> > >
> > > I think that adding sortas attribute to glossterm is the
> > right solution.
> > > If time permits we will discuss this request during today's
> > DocBook TC
> > > meeting.
> > >
> > > --
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >   Jirka Kosek      e-mail: jirka@...      http://xmlguru.cz
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >        Professional XML consulting and training services
> > >   DocBook customization, custom XSLT/XSL-FO document processing
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >  OASIS DocBook TC member, W3C Invited Expert, ISO/JTC1/SC34 member
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >  Want to speak at XML Prague 2007 => http://xmlprague.cz/cfp.html
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Glossary-sorting-in-Japanese-tp101
> 76176p14402503.html
> > Sent from the docbook apps mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> docbook-apps-unsubscribe@...
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > docbook-apps-help@...
> >
> >
>
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[Akagi K]

Thanks David for giving me the details.  I amended the glossary.xsl as you said (and nothing else) and it sorted the glossary terms according to their sortas attribute set in Hiragana. Wonderful!

FYI, the Katakana terms without the sortas values are sorted to appear before any of the terms with the Hiragana sortas values.

Which version of docbook_xsl will the debugged glossary.xsl be in?
We are using docbook_xsl_1.72.0 and for the moment we may just replace the glossary.xsl.

Many Thanks also to Jirka for enabling this in the first place.
Akagi

David Cramer (Tech Pubs) wrote:

Actually, the glossentry element already takes a sortas attribute:
http://docbook.org/tdg/en/html/glossentry.html
but it appears that the xsls aren't currently using it. You should be
able add the Hiragana or Katanakana versions to the sortas on the
glossentry and then do this in the templates from glossary.xsl in your
customization layer (using the same concat trick from autoidx-kosek.xsl
and autoidx-kimber.xsl):

<xsl:sort lang="{$language}" select="translate(concat(@sortas,
glossterm[not(parent::glossentry/@sortas) or parent::glossentry/@sortas
= '']), &lowercase;, &uppercase;)"/>

Instead of the current:

<xsl:sort lang="{$language}" select="translate(glossterm, &lowercase;,
&uppercase;)"/>

This line appears more than once, so change them all. This is a bug in
the xsls, so please log it at sourceforge if it's not there already. I
would love to see the kosek and kimber approaches applied to the
glossary too for grouping glossterms into glossdivs in the same way
indexterms are automatically grouped into indexdivs.


Also, I'm surprised by the need to translate all the characters to the
same case. Is that really required?

David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Akagi K [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 12:10 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [docbook-apps] Glossary sorting in Japanese
>
>
> Further to the glossary sorting issue in Japanese, we are
> using the id for glossentry and notice that they DO GET
> SORTED, but in an arbitrary manner.
> Is this a fluke, or is there some sort order that is
> influencing it? What might that be, so that I can edit it?
>
> Thanks
> Akagi
>
>
> Jirka Kosek wrote:
> >
> > Akagi Kobayashi wrote:
> >
> >> The Kosek method can be used successfully to sort Hiragana and
> >> Katanakana characters (I'm sure). I have added those after the
> >> alphabet to the sort list. Attaching the test xml fyi.
> >
> > I haven't received file, but I would be happy to add it
> into standard
> > distribution. You can send it to me off-list.
> >
> >> Before I look into the Kimber method - I have an idea for sorting
> >> words in kanji.
> >>
> >> Could you tell me whether using the glossentry id= link
> might work?
> >> This is explained in Chapter 16 - Linking to a glossary entry
> >> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/LinkToGlossary.html
> >> So the kanji word will be set as the glossterm; and its reading in
> >> hiragana will be set as the glossentry id.
> >
> > You can do this, but stylesheets doesn't support sorting of
> glossterms
> > based on id values, so you will have to customize stylesheets.
> >
> > I think that adding sortas attribute to glossterm is the
> right solution.
> > If time permits we will discuss this request during today's
> DocBook TC
> > meeting.
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >   Jirka Kosek      e-mail: [e-mail]      http://xmlguru.cz
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >        Professional XML consulting and training services
> >   DocBook customization, custom XSLT/XSL-FO document processing
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  OASIS DocBook TC member, W3C Invited Expert, ISO/JTC1/SC34 member
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  Want to speak at XML Prague 2007 => http://xmlprague.cz/cfp.html
> >
> >
> >  
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Glossary-sorting-in-Japanese-tp101
76176p14402503.html
> Sent from the docbook apps mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [e-mail]
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> [e-mail]
>
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[David Cramer (Tech Pubs)]

I just committed the fixes to svn, so it will be in the next release or
in the snapshot xsls immediately. In addition to the sortas thing, I
noticed that it would missort terms where there is leading whitespace
(e.g. <glossterm> foo</glossterm>), so I added a normalize-space() to
deal with that.

David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Akagi K [mailto:akobayashi@...]
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:59 AM
> To: docbook-apps@...
> Subject: RE: [docbook-apps] Glossary sorting in Japanese
>
>
> Thanks David for giving me the details.  I amended the
> glossary.xsl as you said (and nothing else) and it sorted the
> glossary terms according to their sortas attribute set in
> Hiragana. Wonderful!
>
> FYI, the Katakana terms without the sortas values are sorted
> to appear before any of the terms with the Hiragana sortas values.
>
> Which version of docbook_xsl will the debugged glossary.xsl be in?
> We are using docbook_xsl_1.72.0 and for the moment we may
> just replace the glossary.xsl.
>
> Many Thanks also to Jirka for enabling this in the first place.
> Akagi
>
>
> David Cramer (Tech Pubs) wrote:
> >
> > Actually, the glossentry element already takes a sortas attribute:
> > http://docbook.org/tdg/en/html/glossentry.html
> > but it appears that the xsls aren't currently using it. You
> should be
> > able add the Hiragana or Katanakana versions to the sortas on the
> > glossentry and then do this in the templates from
> glossary.xsl in your
> > customization layer (using the same concat trick from
> > autoidx-kosek.xsl and autoidx-kimber.xsl):
> >
> > <xsl:sort lang="{$language}" select="translate(concat(@sortas,
> > glossterm[not(parent::glossentry/@sortas) or
> > parent::glossentry/@sortas = '']), &lowercase;, &uppercase;)"/>
> >
> > Instead of the current:
> >
> > <xsl:sort lang="{$language}" select="translate(glossterm,
> &lowercase;,
> > &uppercase;)"/>
> >
> > This line appears more than once, so change them all. This
> is a bug in
> > the xsls, so please log it at sourceforge if it's not there
> already. I
> > would love to see the kosek and kimber approaches applied to the
> > glossary too for grouping glossterms into glossdivs in the same way
> > indexterms are automatically grouped into indexdivs.
> >
> >
> > Also, I'm surprised by the need to translate all the
> characters to the
> > same case. Is that really required?
> >
> > David
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Akagi K [mailto:akobayashi@...]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 12:10 PM
> >> To: docbook-apps@...
> >> Subject: Re: [docbook-apps] Glossary sorting in Japanese
> >>
> >>
> >> Further to the glossary sorting issue in Japanese, we are
> using the
> >> id for glossentry and notice that they DO GET SORTED, but in an
> >> arbitrary manner.
> >> Is this a fluke, or is there some sort order that is
> influencing it?
> >> What might that be, so that I can edit it?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Akagi
> >>
> >>
> >> Jirka Kosek wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Akagi Kobayashi wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> The Kosek method can be used successfully to sort Hiragana and
> >> >> Katanakana characters (I'm sure). I have added those after the
> >> >> alphabet to the sort list. Attaching the test xml fyi.
> >> >
> >> > I haven't received file, but I would be happy to add it
> >> into standard
> >> > distribution. You can send it to me off-list.
> >> >
> >> >> Before I look into the Kimber method - I have an idea
> for sorting
> >> >> words in kanji.
> >> >>
> >> >> Could you tell me whether using the glossentry id= link
> >> might work?
> >> >> This is explained in Chapter 16 - Linking to a glossary entry
> >> >> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/LinkToGlossary.html
> >> >> So the kanji word will be set as the glossterm; and its
> reading in
> >> >> hiragana will be set as the glossentry id.
> >> >
> >> > You can do this, but stylesheets doesn't support sorting of
> >> glossterms
> >> > based on id values, so you will have to customize stylesheets.
> >> >
> >> > I think that adding sortas attribute to glossterm is the
> >> right solution.
> >> > If time permits we will discuss this request during today's
> >> DocBook TC
> >> > meeting.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >   Jirka Kosek      e-mail: jirka@...      http://xmlguru.cz
> >> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >        Professional XML consulting and training services
> >> >   DocBook customization, custom XSLT/XSL-FO document processing
> >> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >  OASIS DocBook TC member, W3C Invited Expert,
> ISO/JTC1/SC34 member
> >> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >  Want to speak at XML Prague 2007 => http://xmlprague.cz/cfp.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >  
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> View this message in context:
> >> http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Glossary-sorting-in-Japanese-tp101
> > 76176p14402503.html
> >> Sent from the docbook apps mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>
> >>
> >>
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