Re: JS/JQuery Grid Control?

[Noah Botimer]

Hi James,

I've had good initial results with the grid from Ext JS.  It seems  
very feature-rich, pretty flexible, is responsive to the user, and  
has snazzy, skinnable UI.

I don't think there has been much talk of Ext JS in Sakai, but the  
consistency of UX and overall polish seem very good to me.  The grid  
is the main thing that interests me for now.  ECL 2.0 is also on the  
list of excepted licenses as they are moving to GPL v3, so we should  
be in good shape there.

I'm very high on jQuery, but haven't tried jqGrid.  It looks pretty  
good at a glance.  The only thing that scares me is that it's not in  
jQuery UI (for now, anyway).  I use plenty of jQuery plugins, but I  
worry a little about how decentralized much of the effort is.

If someone has good reasons I shouldn't be generally dazzled by the  
Ext grid, I'd certainly listen.

Thanks,
-Noah

On May 15, 2008, at 12:23 PM, James Renfro wrote:

> I wonder if anybody has a good recommendation for a Javascript grid  
> control to use inside Sakai. The best one I've landed on so far  
> seems to be jqGrid. I'm not sure if this is something the Fluid  
> Project is tackling or not... didn't see anything on their site  
> using terms I knew, but that might just be my ignorance of the  
> right terminology. Ideally I want something that takes data in JSON  
> format and allows for subgrids, editable rows, and a fairly  
> intuitively customizable stylesheet.
>
> Thanks!
>
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[Ian Boston]

There are some other issues with Ext ( and I say this from a  
standpoint of having depended on Ext and had to move away... or at  
least Nico did the work)

Ext has some terms in the license that says things about no  
derivative frameworks, if a portal impl that uses ext is derivative I  
don't know ?

Ext download is huge, we managed to pack it and cut it down but its  
very hard to do.

All the markup in Ext is deep embedded and hard to change and the  
real killer for us.

Accessibility is right at the end of their roadmap, at the extent  
that there are us gov users asking questions on the list.
Ian



On 15 May 2008, at 17:40, Noah Botimer wrote:

> Hi James,
>
> I've had good initial results with the grid from Ext JS.  It seems  
> very feature-rich, pretty flexible, is responsive to the user, and  
> has snazzy, skinnable UI.
>
> I don't think there has been much talk of Ext JS in Sakai, but the  
> consistency of UX and overall polish seem very good to me.  The  
> grid is the main thing that interests me for now.  ECL 2.0 is also  
> on the list of excepted licenses as they are moving to GPL v3, so  
> we should be in good shape there.
>
> I'm very high on jQuery, but haven't tried jqGrid.  It looks pretty  
> good at a glance.  The only thing that scares me is that it's not  
> in jQuery UI (for now, anyway).  I use plenty of jQuery plugins,  
> but I worry a little about how decentralized much of the effort is.
>
> If someone has good reasons I shouldn't be generally dazzled by the  
> Ext grid, I'd certainly listen.
>
> Thanks,
> -Noah
>
> On May 15, 2008, at 12:23 PM, James Renfro wrote:
>
>> I wonder if anybody has a good recommendation for a Javascript  
>> grid control to use inside Sakai. The best one I've landed on so  
>> far seems to be jqGrid. I'm not sure if this is something the  
>> Fluid Project is tackling or not... didn't see anything on their  
>> site using terms I knew, but that might just be my ignorance of  
>> the right terminology. Ideally I want something that takes data in  
>> JSON format and allows for subgrids, editable rows, and a fairly  
>> intuitively customizable stylesheet.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
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[Nicolaas Matthijs]

Hi,

We have been using some bits of ExtJS in order to create the MyCamTools
stuff here at Cambridge (portal layout, floating windows, ...), because
ExtJS looks really good and we needed to be able to show results quickly,
and this all worked well.

We have though decided to move to jQuery (UI) entirely instead of ExtJS, because
of the following reasons:

1) Accessibility of ExtJS widgets are quite horrible, and accessibility is
the lowest priority on their road map. Fluid focusses most of their attention
on jQuery and has got a keyboard and Aria plugin to make your page
accessible.

2) ExtJS becomes quite hard if you want to extends functionality and is
quite big. jQuery also appears to have a more active community. Another
disadvantage is the lack of control over the HTML output and the
layout.

3) ExtJS has moved to a GPL license for their latest version, which I
thought was a problem for Sakai (?), because of the viral character from
the license.

So if I had to choose now, I'd suggest the jQuery way if the component
looks good enough. But of course, the ExtJS is good too if you want
something really quick that looks good with the available functionality.

Kind regards,
Nicolaas

> Quoting Noah Botimer <botimer@...>:
>
> Hi James,
>
> I've had good initial results with the grid from Ext JS.  It seems
> very feature-rich, pretty flexible, is responsive to the user, and
> has snazzy, skinnable UI.
>
> I don't think there has been much talk of Ext JS in Sakai, but the
> consistency of UX and overall polish seem very good to me.  The grid
> is the main thing that interests me for now.  ECL 2.0 is also on the
> list of excepted licenses as they are moving to GPL v3, so we should
> be in good shape there.
>
> I'm very high on jQuery, but haven't tried jqGrid.  It looks pretty
> good at a glance.  The only thing that scares me is that it's not in
> jQuery UI (for now, anyway).  I use plenty of jQuery plugins, but I
> worry a little about how decentralized much of the effort is.
>
> If someone has good reasons I shouldn't be generally dazzled by the
> Ext grid, I'd certainly listen.
>
> Thanks,
> -Noah
>
> On May 15, 2008, at 12:23 PM, James Renfro wrote:
>
> > I wonder if anybody has a good recommendation for a Javascript grid
> > control to use inside Sakai. The best one I've landed on so far
> > seems to be jqGrid. I'm not sure if this is something the Fluid
> > Project is tackling or not... didn't see anything on their site
> > using terms I knew, but that might just be my ignorance of the
> > right terminology. Ideally I want something that takes data in JSON
> > format and allows for subgrids, editable rows, and a fairly
> > intuitively customizable stylesheet.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
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[Noah Botimer]

I can mention things with respect to licensing and pack size:

There is question of whether the no-fork extension to LGPL would  
actually hold up, but the newly adopted GPL v3 is without addendum  
(as of 2.1).  They are still in a bit of flux, but ECL 2.0 is on the  
list of FLOSS exception licenses so, when they straighten it out, we  
should be clear.

There is a pretty flexible web interface to select just the  
components you need.  It doesn't address concerns of different needs  
and different bundles, but offers a somewhat lighted path.

The other two are much bigger issues and places where I'm out of my  
league.  At this point, I'm just an advocate for the needy users.  If  
there are no accessible solutions, I certainly can't create one.

In my naive mind, solving a data access issue with a partially  
accessible solution is a bit better than saying "there's nothing  
perfect, so you get nothing."  (N.B., I'm focusing on the grid -- not  
the whiz-bang faux window manager stuff, which I find ill-advised...)

Thanks,
-Noah

On May 15, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Ian Boston wrote:

> There are some other issues with Ext ( and I say this from a  
> standpoint of having depended on Ext and had to move away... or at  
> least Nico did the work)
>
> Ext has some terms in the license that says things about no  
> derivative frameworks, if a portal impl that uses ext is derivative  
> I don't know ?
>
> Ext download is huge, we managed to pack it and cut it down but its  
> very hard to do.
>
> All the markup in Ext is deep embedded and hard to change and the  
> real killer for us.
>
> Accessibility is right at the end of their roadmap, at the extent  
> that there are us gov users asking questions on the list.
> Ian
>
>
>
> On 15 May 2008, at 17:40, Noah Botimer wrote:
>
>> Hi James,
>>
>> I've had good initial results with the grid from Ext JS.  It seems  
>> very feature-rich, pretty flexible, is responsive to the user, and  
>> has snazzy, skinnable UI.
>>
>> I don't think there has been much talk of Ext JS in Sakai, but the  
>> consistency of UX and overall polish seem very good to me.  The  
>> grid is the main thing that interests me for now.  ECL 2.0 is also  
>> on the list of excepted licenses as they are moving to GPL v3, so  
>> we should be in good shape there.
>>
>> I'm very high on jQuery, but haven't tried jqGrid.  It looks  
>> pretty good at a glance.  The only thing that scares me is that  
>> it's not in jQuery UI (for now, anyway).  I use plenty of jQuery  
>> plugins, but I worry a little about how decentralized much of the  
>> effort is.
>>
>> If someone has good reasons I shouldn't be generally dazzled by  
>> the Ext grid, I'd certainly listen.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Noah
>>
>> On May 15, 2008, at 12:23 PM, James Renfro wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder if anybody has a good recommendation for a Javascript  
>>> grid control to use inside Sakai. The best one I've landed on so  
>>> far seems to be jqGrid. I'm not sure if this is something the  
>>> Fluid Project is tackling or not... didn't see anything on their  
>>> site using terms I knew, but that might just be my ignorance of  
>>> the right terminology. Ideally I want something that takes data  
>>> in JSON format and allows for subgrids, editable rows, and a  
>>> fairly intuitively customizable stylesheet.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> ----------------------
>>> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab  
>>> (https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal) from the DG: Development  
>>> (a.k.a. sakai-dev) site.
>>> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace >  
>>> Preferences.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>

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[colinbdclark]

Hi all,

Fluid hasn't built a grid component so far, and it's not on our radar  
at the moment. We are starting work on an Inline Edit component that  
may be helpful for creating editable cells in a grid.

From an accessibility perspective, grids are can be fairly complex;  
many of the techniques and standards for making them accessible are  
still being worked out. Joseph Scheuhammer, one of our developers  
here, has started similar work for the Dojo Grid widget, but it's  
still very preliminary.

If you do settle on a grid widget and want a hand starting to tackle  
accessibility for it, let me know.

Personally, I've found a lot of the JSON-driven grids to be a bit slow  
and cumbersome. Eli mentioned to me that he's been impressed with the  
Ext grid, but found it's a bit "over the top" in terms of features,  
which makes it complex to work with.

James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?

On 15-May-08, at 12:40 PM, Noah Botimer wrote:
> I'm very high on jQuery, but haven't tried jqGrid.  It looks pretty  
> good at a glance.  The only thing that scares me is that it's not in  
> jQuery UI (for now, anyway).  I use plenty of jQuery plugins, but I  
> worry a little about how decentralized much of the effort is.

I think the decentralization of the jQuery plugin community is  
actually a great strength. There's a lot of diversity out there. Of  
course quality varies from plugin to plugin, but there's a lot of  
sharing and building on each other's work that is a sign of a healthy  
development community. The best plugins seem to eventually be promoted  
to jQuery UI over time.

My two cents,

Colin

---
Colin Clark
Technical Lead, Fluid Project
Adaptive Technology Resource Centre, University of Toronto
http://fluidproject.org

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[Michael Korcuska]

On May 15, 2008, at 10:14 AM, Noah Botimer wrote:
>
> In my naive mind, solving a data access issue with a partially  
> accessible solution is a bit better than saying "there's nothing  
> perfect, so you get nothing."  (N.B., I'm focusing on the grid --  
> not the whiz-bang faux window manager stuff, which I find ill-
> advised...)
>


Those aren't the only two choices in this case though.

I'd like to see the Sakai community rally around something, and jQuery  
seems to be the leading candidate, especially since Fluid is dumping  
energy there. If there is a workable jQuery solution I'd like to see  
if we can't agree to consolidate our energies there, especially for  
something with as much applicability as a grid component.

I blogged about this recently:

http://sakaiblog.korcuska.net/2008/04/22/javascript-toolkits-from-fluid/

--
Michael Korcuska
Executive Director, Sakai Foundation
mkorcuska@...
mobile: [phone] // phone: [phone]
skype: mkorcuska


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[Clay Fenlason-3]

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Colin Clark <colin.clark@...> wrote:
> James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?

I'm going to guess (based on James' physical location and
extrapolating from JA-SIG conversations) that it's a new gradebook UI.
I think I looked at this same ext.js one as well, under the impetus
of feeling that what my faculty really wanted out of a gradebook was
something like Google spreadsheet, but was put off by the kinds of
problems Nico noted.

~Clay

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[James Renfro]

Yes, I'm hoping to build a new gradebook ui with it.


Clay Fenlason wrote:

> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Colin Clark <colin.clark@...> wrote:
>  
>> James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?
>>    
>
> I'm going to guess (based on James' physical location and
> extrapolating from JA-SIG conversations) that it's a new gradebook UI.
> I think I looked at this same ext.js one as well, under the impetus
> of feeling that what my faculty really wanted out of a gradebook was
> something like Google spreadsheet, but was put off by the kinds of
> problems Nico noted.
>
> ~Clay
>
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>
>  

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[David Goodrum]

An improved gradebook UI would be warmly received, particularly by faculty and especially when they have lots of students and lots of assignments.

We have one online course with 600 students per semester and nearly 200 activities built with a testing tool that feeds results directly into the gradebook.  The current gradebook doesn't serve this course very well at this point.

The look and feel closer to an online spreadsheet, like in Google Docs, is an interesting model.

+1 for an improved gradebook UI!

- David

David Goodrum
Director, Academic & Faculty Services
University Information Technology Services
Indiana University

-----Original Message-----
From: khomotso@... [mailto:khomotso@...] On Behalf Of Clay Fenlason
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:29 PM
To: Colin Clark
Cc: Noah Botimer; James Renfro; sakai-dev sakai-dev; Sakai UI UI
Subject: Re: JS/JQuery Grid Control?

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Colin Clark <colin.clark@...> wrote:
> James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?

I'm going to guess (based on James' physical location and
extrapolating from JA-SIG conversations) that it's a new gradebook UI.
I think I looked at this same ext.js one as well, under the impetus
of feeling that what my faculty really wanted out of a gradebook was
something like Google spreadsheet, but was put off by the kinds of
problems Nico noted.

~Clay

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[Plourde, Mathieu]

Yes, there is a lot to be done in the Gradebook, and that would be very helpful. I agree! +1

Best Regards,

=================================

Mathieu Plourde, MBA
Instructional Designer
IT-User Services
University of Delaware
192 Chapel Street, room 227-Z
Newark, DE 19716

Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
mathieu@...
http://copland.udel.edu/~mathieu/

=================================

-----Original Message-----
From: David Goodrum [mailto:goodrum@...]
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 10:03 AM
To: 'Clay Fenlason'; 'Colin Clark'
Cc: 'Noah Botimer'; 'James Renfro'; 'sakai-dev sakai-dev'; 'Sakai UI UI'
Subject: RE: JS/JQuery Grid Control?

An improved gradebook UI would be warmly received, particularly by faculty and especially when they have lots of students and lots of assignments.

We have one online course with 600 students per semester and nearly 200 activities built with a testing tool that feeds results directly into the gradebook.  The current gradebook doesn't serve this course very well at this point.

The look and feel closer to an online spreadsheet, like in Google Docs, is an interesting model.

+1 for an improved gradebook UI!

- David

David Goodrum
Director, Academic & Faculty Services
University Information Technology Services
Indiana University

-----Original Message-----
From: khomotso@... [mailto:khomotso@...] On Behalf Of Clay Fenlason
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:29 PM
To: Colin Clark
Cc: Noah Botimer; James Renfro; sakai-dev sakai-dev; Sakai UI UI
Subject: Re: JS/JQuery Grid Control?

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Colin Clark <colin.clark@...> wrote:
> James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?

I'm going to guess (based on James' physical location and
extrapolating from JA-SIG conversations) that it's a new gradebook UI.
I think I looked at this same ext.js one as well, under the impetus
of feeling that what my faculty really wanted out of a gradebook was
something like Google spreadsheet, but was put off by the kinds of
problems Nico noted.

~Clay

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[Ian Boston]

Quick question, how is the work intending to be done ?

Is it an improvement to the UI by editing existing screens and using  
off the shelf widgets ?
Or a larger re-write.

If its a large re-write, we could save a massive amount of time using  
GWT to build the screens as in the ui is mainly administrative, and  
GWT in 1.5 (due out very soon) has full keyboard accessibility and  
aria tags (apparently). Being entirely in client, it would also be  
much more responsive than the typical round trip cycle.

The other reason for mentioning GWT, is its now possible to build  
gadgets in GWT so would fit in with the new UX work that Nathan has  
been working on.

Ian



On 16 May 2008, at 15:21, Plourde, Mathieu wrote:

> Yes, there is a lot to be done in the Gradebook, and that would be  
> very helpful. I agree! +1
>
> Best Regards,
>
> =================================
>
> Mathieu Plourde, MBA
> Instructional Designer
> IT-User Services
> University of Delaware
> 192 Chapel Street, room 227-Z
> Newark, DE 19716
>
> Phone: [phone]
> Fax: [phone]
> mathieu@...
> http://copland.udel.edu/~mathieu/
>
> =================================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Goodrum [mailto:goodrum@...]
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 10:03 AM
> To: 'Clay Fenlason'; 'Colin Clark'
> Cc: 'Noah Botimer'; 'James Renfro'; 'sakai-dev sakai-dev'; 'Sakai  
> UI UI'
> Subject: RE: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>
> An improved gradebook UI would be warmly received, particularly by  
> faculty and especially when they have lots of students and lots of  
> assignments.
>
> We have one online course with 600 students per semester and nearly  
> 200 activities built with a testing tool that feeds results  
> directly into the gradebook.  The current gradebook doesn't serve  
> this course very well at this point.
>
> The look and feel closer to an online spreadsheet, like in Google  
> Docs, is an interesting model.
>
> +1 for an improved gradebook UI!
>
> - David
>
> David Goodrum
> Director, Academic & Faculty Services
> University Information Technology Services
> Indiana University
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: khomotso@... [mailto:khomotso@...] On Behalf Of  
> Clay Fenlason
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:29 PM
> To: Colin Clark
> Cc: Noah Botimer; James Renfro; sakai-dev sakai-dev; Sakai UI UI
> Subject: Re: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Colin Clark  
> <colin.clark@...> wrote:
>> James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?
>
> I'm going to guess (based on James' physical location and
> extrapolating from JA-SIG conversations) that it's a new gradebook UI.
> I think I looked at this same ext.js one as well, under the impetus
> of feeling that what my faculty really wanted out of a gradebook was
> something like Google spreadsheet, but was put off by the kinds of
> problems Nico noted.
>
> ~Clay
>
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[James Renfro]

It's a larger re-write. I've been meaning to explore GWT, especially
since the jqGrid seems like its not quite there yet. I'll take a look.


Ian Boston wrote:

> Quick question, how is the work intending to be done ?
>
> Is it an improvement to the UI by editing existing screens and using
> off the shelf widgets ?
> Or a larger re-write.
>
> If its a large re-write, we could save a massive amount of time using
> GWT to build the screens as in the ui is mainly administrative, and
> GWT in 1.5 (due out very soon) has full keyboard accessibility and
> aria tags (apparently). Being entirely in client, it would also be
> much more responsive than the typical round trip cycle.
>
> The other reason for mentioning GWT, is its now possible to build
> gadgets in GWT so would fit in with the new UX work that Nathan has
> been working on.
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> On 16 May 2008, at 15:21, Plourde, Mathieu wrote:
>
>> Yes, there is a lot to be done in the Gradebook, and that would be
>> very helpful. I agree! +1
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> =================================
>>
>> Mathieu Plourde, MBA
>> Instructional Designer
>> IT-User Services
>> University of Delaware
>> 192 Chapel Street, room 227-Z
>> Newark, DE 19716
>>
>> Phone: [phone]
>> Fax: [phone]
>> mathieu@...
>> http://copland.udel.edu/~mathieu/
>>
>> =================================
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Goodrum [mailto:goodrum@...]
>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 10:03 AM
>> To: 'Clay Fenlason'; 'Colin Clark'
>> Cc: 'Noah Botimer'; 'James Renfro'; 'sakai-dev sakai-dev'; 'Sakai UI UI'
>> Subject: RE: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>>
>> An improved gradebook UI would be warmly received, particularly by
>> faculty and especially when they have lots of students and lots of
>> assignments.
>>
>> We have one online course with 600 students per semester and nearly
>> 200 activities built with a testing tool that feeds results directly
>> into the gradebook.  The current gradebook doesn't serve this course
>> very well at this point.
>>
>> The look and feel closer to an online spreadsheet, like in Google
>> Docs, is an interesting model.
>>
>> +1 for an improved gradebook UI!
>>
>> - David
>>
>> David Goodrum
>> Director, Academic & Faculty Services
>> University Information Technology Services
>> Indiana University
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: khomotso@... [mailto:khomotso@...] On Behalf Of
>> Clay Fenlason
>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:29 PM
>> To: Colin Clark
>> Cc: Noah Botimer; James Renfro; sakai-dev sakai-dev; Sakai UI UI
>> Subject: Re: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>>
>> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Colin Clark
>> <colin.clark@...> wrote:
>>> James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?
>>
>> I'm going to guess (based on James' physical location and
>> extrapolating from JA-SIG conversations) that it's a new gradebook UI.
>> I think I looked at this same ext.js one as well, under the impetus
>> of feeling that what my faculty really wanted out of a gradebook was
>> something like Google spreadsheet, but was put off by the kinds of
>> problems Nico noted.
>>
>> ~Clay
>>
>> ----------------------
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[Ian Boston]

It might be worth taking a revision from head of the GWT tree, just  
because that will give you all the things that are going to be in 1.5

There are also an increasing number of widget components coming out.  
Ext 2.0.2 is available as a component set (but has all the drawbacks  
of ext and accessability), there are others. The interesting part  
here is that that it looks like its possible to integrate components  
form 3rd party pure JS libs... and that there are more and more  
component developers doing things for GWT. It would also (I presume)  
be possible to take the Fluid widgets and make them available in GWT.

Ian



On 16 May 2008, at 17:11, James Renfro wrote:

> It's a larger re-write. I've been meaning to explore GWT,  
> especially since the jqGrid seems like its not quite there yet.  
> I'll take a look.
>
>
> Ian Boston wrote:
>> Quick question, how is the work intending to be done ?
>>
>> Is it an improvement to the UI by editing existing screens and  
>> using off the shelf widgets ?
>> Or a larger re-write.
>>
>> If its a large re-write, we could save a massive amount of time  
>> using GWT to build the screens as in the ui is mainly  
>> administrative, and GWT in 1.5 (due out very soon) has full  
>> keyboard accessibility and aria tags (apparently). Being entirely  
>> in client, it would also be much more responsive than the typical  
>> round trip cycle.
>>
>> The other reason for mentioning GWT, is its now possible to build  
>> gadgets in GWT so would fit in with the new UX work that Nathan  
>> has been working on.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 May 2008, at 15:21, Plourde, Mathieu wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, there is a lot to be done in the Gradebook, and that would  
>>> be very helpful. I agree! +1
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> =================================
>>>
>>> Mathieu Plourde, MBA
>>> Instructional Designer
>>> IT-User Services
>>> University of Delaware
>>> 192 Chapel Street, room 227-Z
>>> Newark, DE 19716
>>>
>>> Phone: [phone]
>>> Fax: [phone]
>>> mathieu@...
>>> http://copland.udel.edu/~mathieu/
>>>
>>> =================================
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: David Goodrum [mailto:goodrum@...]
>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 10:03 AM
>>> To: 'Clay Fenlason'; 'Colin Clark'
>>> Cc: 'Noah Botimer'; 'James Renfro'; 'sakai-dev sakai-dev'; 'Sakai  
>>> UI UI'
>>> Subject: RE: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>>>
>>> An improved gradebook UI would be warmly received, particularly  
>>> by faculty and especially when they have lots of students and  
>>> lots of assignments.
>>>
>>> We have one online course with 600 students per semester and  
>>> nearly 200 activities built with a testing tool that feeds  
>>> results directly into the gradebook.  The current gradebook  
>>> doesn't serve this course very well at this point.
>>>
>>> The look and feel closer to an online spreadsheet, like in Google  
>>> Docs, is an interesting model.
>>>
>>> +1 for an improved gradebook UI!
>>>
>>> - David
>>>
>>> David Goodrum
>>> Director, Academic & Faculty Services
>>> University Information Technology Services
>>> Indiana University
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: khomotso@... [mailto:khomotso@...] On Behalf Of  
>>> Clay Fenlason
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:29 PM
>>> To: Colin Clark
>>> Cc: Noah Botimer; James Renfro; sakai-dev sakai-dev; Sakai UI UI
>>> Subject: Re: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Colin Clark  
>>> <colin.clark@...> wrote:
>>>> James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?
>>>
>>> I'm going to guess (based on James' physical location and
>>> extrapolating from JA-SIG conversations) that it's a new  
>>> gradebook UI.
>>> I think I looked at this same ext.js one as well, under the impetus
>>> of feeling that what my faculty really wanted out of a gradebook was
>>> something like Google spreadsheet, but was put off by the kinds of
>>> problems Nico noted.
>>>
>>> ~Clay
>>>
>>> ----------------------
>>> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab  
>>> (https://collab.sakaiproject.org/portal) from the DG: User  
>>> Experience site.
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>>> Preferences.
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>>>
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[Ian Boston]

Very cool :), it appears to have some limited calculation  
functionality. sum, average etc.
Ian



On 16 May 2008, at 16:56, Carl Hall wrote:

> Just to throw another bit on the fire, there's also  
> TrimSpreadsheet.  I haven't looked under the covers on this but the  
> demos seem pretty interesting.
>
> http://code.google.com/p/trimpath/wiki/TrimSpreadsheet
>
>
> On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Ian Boston <ieb@...> wrote:
> Quick question, how is the work intending to be done ?
>
> Is it an improvement to the UI by editing existing screens and  
> using off the shelf widgets ?
> Or a larger re-write.
>
> If its a large re-write, we could save a massive amount of time  
> using GWT to build the screens as in the ui is mainly  
> administrative, and GWT in 1.5 (due out very soon) has full  
> keyboard accessibility and aria tags (apparently). Being entirely  
> in client, it would also be much more responsive than the typical  
> round trip cycle.
>
> The other reason for mentioning GWT, is its now possible to build  
> gadgets in GWT so would fit in with the new UX work that Nathan has  
> been working on.
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> On 16 May 2008, at 15:21, Plourde, Mathieu wrote:
>
> Yes, there is a lot to be done in the Gradebook, and that would be  
> very helpful. I agree! +1
>
> Best Regards,
>
> =================================
>
> Mathieu Plourde, MBA
> Instructional Designer
> IT-User Services
> University of Delaware
> 192 Chapel Street, room 227-Z
> Newark, DE 19716
>
> Phone: [phone]
> Fax: [phone]
> mathieu@...
> http://copland.udel.edu/~mathieu/
>
> =================================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Goodrum [mailto:goodrum@...]
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 10:03 AM
> To: 'Clay Fenlason'; 'Colin Clark'
> Cc: 'Noah Botimer'; 'James Renfro'; 'sakai-dev sakai-dev'; 'Sakai  
> UI UI'
> Subject: RE: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>
> An improved gradebook UI would be warmly received, particularly by  
> faculty and especially when they have lots of students and lots of  
> assignments.
>
> We have one online course with 600 students per semester and nearly  
> 200 activities built with a testing tool that feeds results  
> directly into the gradebook.  The current gradebook doesn't serve  
> this course very well at this point.
>
> The look and feel closer to an online spreadsheet, like in Google  
> Docs, is an interesting model.
>
> +1 for an improved gradebook UI!
>
> - David
>
> David Goodrum
> Director, Academic & Faculty Services
> University Information Technology Services
> Indiana University
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: khomotso@... [mailto:khomotso@...] On Behalf Of  
> Clay Fenlason
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:29 PM
> To: Colin Clark
> Cc: Noah Botimer; James Renfro; sakai-dev sakai-dev; Sakai UI UI
> Subject: Re: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Colin Clark  
> <colin.clark@...> wrote:
> James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?
>
> I'm going to guess (based on James' physical location and
> extrapolating from JA-SIG conversations) that it's a new gradebook UI.
> I think I looked at this same ext.js one as well, under the impetus
> of feeling that what my faculty really wanted out of a gradebook was
> something like Google spreadsheet, but was put off by the kinds of
> problems Nico noted.
>
> ~Clay
>
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[elicochran]

Clay mentions Flexigrid in another thread.

Flexigrid: http://webplicity.net/flexigrid/

I would also like to put in a vote for this component. I have not used  
it, but a colleague of mine is using it on a commercial project and  
has had very good luck with it.

It does need some work to be made accessible, but if there is some  
consensus in the community to use this component then Fluid might be  
able to work with the developer to add the accessibility hooks using  
our jQuery based keyboard plugin and the jARIA plugin. Using a grid  
based on jQuery makes this work much easier.

(I can't unilaterally promise Fluid's services here, but it is the  
kind of thing that we do.)

- Eli


> I was looking for a good tabular grid for the assignments work, and
> came across Flexigrid: http://webplicity.net/flexigrid/
>
> It seems to be just about exactly what's needed, but I wanted to see
> if anyone out there has had any encounter with it.
>
> ~Clay

> Very cool :), it appears to have some limited calculation  
> functionality. sum, average etc.
> Ian
>
>
>
> On 16 May 2008, at 16:56, Carl Hall wrote:
>
>> Just to throw another bit on the fire, there's also  
>> TrimSpreadsheet.  I haven't looked under the covers on this but the  
>> demos seem pretty interesting.
>>
>> http://code.google.com/p/trimpath/wiki/TrimSpreadsheet
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Ian Boston <ieb@...> wrote:
>> Quick question, how is the work intending to be done ?
>>
>> Is it an improvement to the UI by editing existing screens and  
>> using off the shelf widgets ?
>> Or a larger re-write.
>>
>> If its a large re-write, we could save a massive amount of time  
>> using GWT to build the screens as in the ui is mainly  
>> administrative, and GWT in 1.5 (due out very soon) has full  
>> keyboard accessibility and aria tags (apparently). Being entirely  
>> in client, it would also be much more responsive than the typical  
>> round trip cycle.
>>
>> The other reason for mentioning GWT, is its now possible to build  
>> gadgets in GWT so would fit in with the new UX work that Nathan has  
>> been working on.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 May 2008, at 15:21, Plourde, Mathieu wrote:
>>
>> Yes, there is a lot to be done in the Gradebook, and that would be  
>> very helpful. I agree! +1
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> =================================
>>
>> Mathieu Plourde, MBA
>> Instructional Designer
>> IT-User Services
>> University of Delaware
>> 192 Chapel Street, room 227-Z
>> Newark, DE 19716
>>
>> Phone: [phone]
>> Fax: [phone]
>> mathieu@...
>> http://copland.udel.edu/~mathieu/
>>
>> =================================
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Goodrum [mailto:goodrum@...]
>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 10:03 AM
>> To: 'Clay Fenlason'; 'Colin Clark'
>> Cc: 'Noah Botimer'; 'James Renfro'; 'sakai-dev sakai-dev'; 'Sakai  
>> UI UI'
>> Subject: RE: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>>
>> An improved gradebook UI would be warmly received, particularly by  
>> faculty and especially when they have lots of students and lots of  
>> assignments.
>>
>> We have one online course with 600 students per semester and nearly  
>> 200 activities built with a testing tool that feeds results  
>> directly into the gradebook.  The current gradebook doesn't serve  
>> this course very well at this point.
>>
>> The look and feel closer to an online spreadsheet, like in Google  
>> Docs, is an interesting model.
>>
>> +1 for an improved gradebook UI!
>>
>> - David
>>
>> David Goodrum
>> Director, Academic & Faculty Services
>> University Information Technology Services
>> Indiana University
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: khomotso@... [mailto:khomotso@...] On Behalf Of  
>> Clay Fenlason
>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:29 PM
>> To: Colin Clark
>> Cc: Noah Botimer; James Renfro; sakai-dev sakai-dev; Sakai UI UI
>> Subject: Re: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>>
>> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Colin Clark  
>> <colin.clark@...> wrote:
>> James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?
>>
>> I'm going to guess (based on James' physical location and
>> extrapolating from JA-SIG conversations) that it's a new gradebook  
>> UI.
>> I think I looked at this same ext.js one as well, under the impetus
>> of feeling that what my faculty really wanted out of a gradebook was
>> something like Google spreadsheet, but was put off by the kinds of
>> problems Nico noted.
>>
>> ~Clay
>>
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. . . . . . . . . . .  .  .   .    .      .         .              .                     .

Eli Cochran
user interaction developer
ETS, UC Berkeley


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[colinbdclark]

Hi Ian,

On 16-May-08, at 12:52 PM, Ian Boston wrote:

> The interesting part here is that that it looks like its possible to  
> integrate components form 3rd party pure JS libs... and that there  
> are more and more component developers doing things for GWT. It  
> would also (I presume) be possible to take the Fluid widgets and  
> make them available in GWT.

Yes, you're correct that it's possible to make Fluid components  
available to GWT. A couple of the Kuali Student guys were eager to  
give it a try with our new Uploader component, and I look forward to  
seeing their results.

Colin

---
Colin Clark
Technical Lead, Fluid Project
Adaptive Technology Resource Centre, University of Toronto
http://fluidproject.org

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[Ian Boston]

Excellent, we may also use GWT in places where there are only java  
developers and the app it admin focused. GWT4Gadgets now exists, and  
I am told that GWT 1.5 includes keyboard and aria. You dont happen to  
know if it will play well with the fluid keyboard enhancer library ?
Ian



On 20 May 2008, at 17:45, Colin Clark wrote:

> Hi Ian,
>
> On 16-May-08, at 12:52 PM, Ian Boston wrote:
>
>> The interesting part here is that that it looks like its possible  
>> to integrate components form 3rd party pure JS libs... and that  
>> there are more and more component developers doing things for GWT.  
>> It would also (I presume) be possible to take the Fluid widgets  
>> and make them available in GWT.
>
> Yes, you're correct that it's possible to make Fluid components  
> available to GWT. A couple of the Kuali Student guys were eager to  
> give it a try with our new Uploader component, and I look forward  
> to seeing their results.
>
> Colin
>
> ---
> Colin Clark
> Technical Lead, Fluid Project
> Adaptive Technology Resource Centre, University of Toronto
> http://fluidproject.org
>

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[Robert Gérin-Lajoie]

Yes, i suggest we take a deeper look at GWT vs JQuery at the Paris Conference.

Like Ian mention, and our experience confirm it with our ongoing work
in the OpenSyllabus project, it is very easy to build a rich tool
centric interface with GWT.
But another major point is that in the future we can build
disconnected tools, with the combinaison of GWT and Google Gears.
This alone is a major fonctionnal plus for our educationnal scenarios.

See you in Paris!

Robert Gérin-Lajoie
Directeur intérimaire du BENA
Université de Montréal

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Ian Boston <ieb@...> wrote:

> Quick question, how is the work intending to be done ?
>
> Is it an improvement to the UI by editing existing screens and using off the
> shelf widgets ?
> Or a larger re-write.
>
> If its a large re-write, we could save a massive amount of time using GWT to
> build the screens as in the ui is mainly administrative, and GWT in 1.5 (due
> out very soon) has full keyboard accessibility and aria tags (apparently).
> Being entirely in client, it would also be much more responsive than the
> typical round trip cycle.
>
> The other reason for mentioning GWT, is its now possible to build gadgets in
> GWT so would fit in with the new UX work that Nathan has been working on.
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> On 16 May 2008, at 15:21, Plourde, Mathieu wrote:
>
>> Yes, there is a lot to be done in the Gradebook, and that would be very
>> helpful. I agree! +1
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> =================================
>>
>> Mathieu Plourde, MBA
>> Instructional Designer
>> IT-User Services
>> University of Delaware
>> 192 Chapel Street, room 227-Z
>> Newark, DE 19716
>>
>> Phone: [phone]
>> Fax: [phone]
>> mathieu@...
>> http://copland.udel.edu/~mathieu/
>>
>> =================================
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Goodrum [mailto:goodrum@...]
>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 10:03 AM
>> To: 'Clay Fenlason'; 'Colin Clark'
>> Cc: 'Noah Botimer'; 'James Renfro'; 'sakai-dev sakai-dev'; 'Sakai UI UI'
>> Subject: RE: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>>
>> An improved gradebook UI would be warmly received, particularly by faculty
>> and especially when they have lots of students and lots of assignments.
>>
>> We have one online course with 600 students per semester and nearly 200
>> activities built with a testing tool that feeds results directly into the
>> gradebook.  The current gradebook doesn't serve this course very well at
>> this point.
>>
>> The look and feel closer to an online spreadsheet, like in Google Docs, is
>> an interesting model.
>>
>> +1 for an improved gradebook UI!
>>
>> - David
>>
>> David Goodrum
>> Director, Academic & Faculty Services
>> University Information Technology Services
>> Indiana University
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: khomotso@... [mailto:khomotso@...] On Behalf Of Clay
>> Fenlason
>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:29 PM
>> To: Colin Clark
>> Cc: Noah Botimer; James Renfro; sakai-dev sakai-dev; Sakai UI UI
>> Subject: Re: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>>
>> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Colin Clark <colin.clark@...>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?
>>
>> I'm going to guess (based on James' physical location and
>> extrapolating from JA-SIG conversations) that it's a new gradebook UI.
>> I think I looked at this same ext.js one as well, under the impetus
>> of feeling that what my faculty really wanted out of a gradebook was
>> something like Google spreadsheet, but was put off by the kinds of
>> problems Nico noted.
>>
>> ~Clay
>>
>> ----------------------
>> This automatic notification message was sent by Sakai Collab
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[Ian Boston]

The other thing that makes me much more positive about GWT is  
GWT4Gadgets, which should enable a GWT programmer to create a Gadget  
and so interoperate with other pure html Gadgets.
Ian



On 22 May 2008, at 16:45, Robert Gérin-Lajoie wrote:

> Yes, i suggest we take a deeper look at GWT vs JQuery at the Paris  
> Conference.
>
> Like Ian mention, and our experience confirm it with our ongoing work
> in the OpenSyllabus project, it is very easy to build a rich tool
> centric interface with GWT.
> But another major point is that in the future we can build
> disconnected tools, with the combinaison of GWT and Google Gears.
> This alone is a major fonctionnal plus for our educationnal scenarios.
>
> See you in Paris!
>
> Robert Gérin-Lajoie
> Directeur intérimaire du BENA
> Université de Montréal
>
> On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Ian Boston <ieb@...> wrote:
>> Quick question, how is the work intending to be done ?
>>
>> Is it an improvement to the UI by editing existing screens and  
>> using off the
>> shelf widgets ?
>> Or a larger re-write.
>>
>> If its a large re-write, we could save a massive amount of time  
>> using GWT to
>> build the screens as in the ui is mainly administrative, and GWT  
>> in 1.5 (due
>> out very soon) has full keyboard accessibility and aria tags  
>> (apparently).
>> Being entirely in client, it would also be much more responsive  
>> than the
>> typical round trip cycle.
>>
>> The other reason for mentioning GWT, is its now possible to build  
>> gadgets in
>> GWT so would fit in with the new UX work that Nathan has been  
>> working on.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 May 2008, at 15:21, Plourde, Mathieu wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, there is a lot to be done in the Gradebook, and that would  
>>> be very
>>> helpful. I agree! +1
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> =================================
>>>
>>> Mathieu Plourde, MBA
>>> Instructional Designer
>>> IT-User Services
>>> University of Delaware
>>> 192 Chapel Street, room 227-Z
>>> Newark, DE 19716
>>>
>>> Phone: [phone]
>>> Fax: [phone]
>>> mathieu@...
>>> http://copland.udel.edu/~mathieu/
>>>
>>> =================================
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: David Goodrum [mailto:goodrum@...]
>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 10:03 AM
>>> To: 'Clay Fenlason'; 'Colin Clark'
>>> Cc: 'Noah Botimer'; 'James Renfro'; 'sakai-dev sakai-dev'; 'Sakai  
>>> UI UI'
>>> Subject: RE: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>>>
>>> An improved gradebook UI would be warmly received, particularly  
>>> by faculty
>>> and especially when they have lots of students and lots of  
>>> assignments.
>>>
>>> We have one online course with 600 students per semester and  
>>> nearly 200
>>> activities built with a testing tool that feeds results directly  
>>> into the
>>> gradebook.  The current gradebook doesn't serve this course very  
>>> well at
>>> this point.
>>>
>>> The look and feel closer to an online spreadsheet, like in Google  
>>> Docs, is
>>> an interesting model.
>>>
>>> +1 for an improved gradebook UI!
>>>
>>> - David
>>>
>>> David Goodrum
>>> Director, Academic & Faculty Services
>>> University Information Technology Services
>>> Indiana University
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: khomotso@... [mailto:khomotso@...] On Behalf Of  
>>> Clay
>>> Fenlason
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:29 PM
>>> To: Colin Clark
>>> Cc: Noah Botimer; James Renfro; sakai-dev sakai-dev; Sakai UI UI
>>> Subject: Re: JS/JQuery Grid Control?
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Colin Clark  
>>> <colin.clark@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> James, what are you actually hoping to build with your grid?
>>>
>>> I'm going to guess (based on James' physical location and
>>> extrapolating from JA-SIG conversations) that it's a new  
>>> gradebook UI.
>>> I think I looked at this same ext.js one as well, under the impetus
>>> of feeling that what my faculty really wanted out of a gradebook was
>>> something like Google spreadsheet, but was put off by the kinds of
>>> problems Nico noted.
>>>
>>> ~Clay
>>>
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