Re: Many-Worlds iPhone app!

[Bruno Marchal]

On 18 Oct 2009, at 01:13, Alan Forrester wrote:

The universes, are just part of a more complex structure as explained here

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0104033

part of that more complex structure is loads of continuous information that is not copied and cannot be copied although we can get access to some information about it because it affects the probabilities of the things we can observe.

The question is then: where does that continuous information come from?

But it is easy to explain this when we assume the hypothesis that "we", at some genuine third person description level, are Turing emulable. In that case we get a continuous explosion of histories (computations) going through our states already defined in arithmetic. Our consciousness can stabilize only on the deep histories which are also stable for a continuum of random fluctuations. Why? Because those exists as defined by the law of elementary arithmetic, which is indeed already Turing universal.

If the Mandelbrot set(*) M is Turing universal (or Post creative), then it constitutes a good third person view of the multiverse. It is constituted of an infinite but enumerable collection of tiny sub-Mandelbrot sets, each of which is surrendered by a continuum of histories (if you agree with the rule Y = II, that is, bifurcations of the futures are differentiation of the pasts). You can literally see the "histories" bifurcating infinitely often when converging on the border of a sub-Mandelbrot set. The results of the bifurcations organize themselves into converging "polygonal rings" with 2^n sides (n going to the infinite).

(*) By Mandelbrot set I mean the rational Mandelbrot set: I mean his intersection with Q X Q (Q = the rational number). See this to have a look on 4 nices zoom (enlargement) on it. Obviously, no machines can distinguish a zoom on M from a zoom on M intersected with Q X Q.

Here is just one video with four nice zooms on M (or M intersected with Q X Q). The third and fifth one illustrates the convergence of "bifurcating histories" on the border of M.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTuP02b_a7Y

If comp is true, and if M is creative, "you" are there. Each of your possible states is dense on the border of M. There is always an infinity of "3-you" between two "3-you". But from your own personal perspective, it is far more complex, and a priori the M set don't provide the information, I think you need to introduce the self-reference logics to pursue the kind of analysis Everett has done on the universal wave function.

Normally the quantum wave should be justified here, from M + a notion of internal relative view.

Hmm... This de-zoom (followed by a zoom) illustrates very well too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lFT4H7E7Ac

The relation with arithmetic is that the question of 'rational belongness to rational M' is expressible in elementary arithmetic, as you can guess from the existence of those zooms, if you know how a computer functions and and what is its relation with arithmetic.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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[Dr. John Yates]

Bruno wrote

> The question is then: where does that continuous information come
> from? ...

I could not locate the intriguingly titled "Many-Worlds iPhone appl"
heading in this group, from which it seems to have somehow come, so
I added a copy to the bottom of  this post, sorry if this duplicates but
it should interest readers here anyway.

Hm, http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0104033 is interesting , though the
copy I looked up at Arxiv does not seem to have Abstract or
Conclusions.Also, interestingly, it still seems to leave many options
open.

I understood it in general terms and was also interested in the
Mandelbrot set approach of Bruno. I have several books of a
techie/coffee table approach at hand on the Mandelbrot set - as most of
us do - and I also looked at the Bruno videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTuP02b_a7Y and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lFT4H7E7Ac

I would agree that there Bruno has something to say. However the fact is
also that neither conventional nor quantum computing cover all the real
options available - experimentally my own blog
http://ttjohn.blogspot.com/ mentions the fact that nowadays even the
so-called 'Libet half-second' is experimentally naive by the standards
of 2009. I'm thinking  that there now needs to be an advance in the
Godel/Chaitin theorem approach to more theorems of a similar kind.

By the way we are hoping to have a conference in Goa in 2010 at my
Institute for Fundamental Studies (in Goa) which I hope may help to
clarify these matters, some preliminary details on blog
http://ttjohn.blogspot.com/ .


uv

---------------------------------------------------------------
On 18 Oct 2009, at 01:13, Alan Forrester wrote:

> The universes, are just part of a more complex structure as
> explained here
>
> http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0104033
>
> part of that more complex structure is loads of continuous
> information that is not copied and cannot be copied although we can
> get access to some information about it because it affects the
> probabilities of the things we can observe.


The question is then: where does that continuous information come from?
But it is easy to explain this when we assume the hypothesis that
"we", at some genuine third person description level, are Turing
emulable. In that case we get a continuous explosion of histories
(computations) going through our states already defined in arithmetic.
Our consciousness can stabilize only on the deep histories which are
also stable for a continuum of random fluctuations. Why? Because those
exists as defined by the law of elementary arithmetic, which is indeed
already Turing universal.

If the Mandelbrot set(*) M is Turing universal (or Post creative),
then it constitutes a good third person view of the multiverse. It is
constituted of an infinite but enumerable collection of tiny sub-
Mandelbrot sets, each of which is surrendered by a continuum of
histories (if you agree with the rule Y = II, that is, bifurcations of
the futures are differentiation of the pasts). You can literally see
the "histories" bifurcating infinitely often when converging on the
border of a sub-Mandelbrot set. The results of the bifurcations
organize themselves into converging "polygonal rings" with 2^n sides
(n going to the infinite).

(*) By Mandelbrot set I mean the rational Mandelbrot set: I mean his
intersection with Q X Q (Q = the rational number). See this to have a
look on 4 nices zoom (enlargement) on it. Obviously, no machines can
distinguish a zoom on M from a zoom on M intersected with Q X Q.

Here is just one video with four nice zooms on M (or M intersected
with Q X Q). The third and fifth one illustrates the convergence of
"bifurcating histories" on the border of M.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTuP02b_a7Y

If comp is true, and if M is creative, "you" are there. Each of your
possible states is dense on the border of M. There is always an
infinity of "3-you" between two "3-you". But from your own personal
perspective, it is far more complex, and a priori the M set don't
provide the information, I think you need to introduce the self-
reference logics to pursue the kind of analysis Everett has done on
the universal wave function.
Normally the quantum wave should be justified here, from M + a notion
of internal relative view.

Hmm... This de-zoom (followed by a zoom) illustrates very well too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lFT4H7E7Ac

The relation with arithmetic is that the question of 'rational
belongness to rational M' is expressible in elementary arithmetic, as
you can guess from the existence of those zooms, if you know how a
computer functions and and what is its relation with arithmetic.

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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[Bruno Marchal]

On 05 Nov 2009, at 04:11, Dr. John Yates wrote:

Bruno wrote

The question is then: where does that continuous information come

from? ...

I could not locate the intriguingly titled "Many-Worlds iPhone appl"
heading in this group, from which it seems to have somehow come, so
I added a copy to the bottom of  this post, sorry if this duplicates but
it should interest readers here anyway.

It was a reply to the FOR list (Fabric of Reality list). But it concerns many points discussed on the everything list, so I put it in "cc".

The original "Many-Worlds iphone app" was a sort of advertising for a gadget to manage your quantum alternate future. Here:

<<

Split the universe with this quantum-based iPhone app:

Universe Splitter <http://cheapuniverses.com/universesplitter>

Enjoy!

-- Eric Daniels

>>

Hm, http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0104033 is interesting , though the
copy I looked up at Arxiv does not seem to have Abstract or
Conclusions.Also, interestingly, it still seems to leave many options
open.

I understood it in general terms and was also interested in the
Mandelbrot set approach of Bruno. I have several books of a
techie/coffee table approach at hand on the Mandelbrot set - as most of
us do - and I also looked at the Bruno videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTuP02b_a7Y and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lFT4H7E7Ac

I would agree that there Bruno has something to say. However the fact is
also that neither conventional nor quantum computing cover all the real
options available - experimentally my own blog
http://ttjohn.blogspot.com/ mentions the fact that nowadays even the
so-called 'Libet half-second' is experimentally naive by the standards
of 2009. I'm thinking  that there now needs to be an advance in the
Godel/Chaitin theorem approach to more theorems of a similar kind.

Could and will say more on this if and when we progress on the diagonalization technics.

By the way we are hoping to have a conference in Goa in 2010 at my
Institute for Fundamental Studies (in Goa) which I hope may help to
clarify these matters, some preliminary details on blog
http://ttjohn.blogspot.com/ .

Thanks to keep us informed.

Bruno

---------------------------------------------------------------
On 18 Oct 2009, at 01:13, Alan Forrester wrote:

The universes, are just part of a more complex structure as

explained here

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0104033

part of that more complex structure is loads of continuous

information that is not copied and cannot be copied although we can

get access to some information about it because it affects the

probabilities of the things we can observe.

The question is then: where does that continuous information come from?
But it is easy to explain this when we assume the hypothesis that
"we", at some genuine third person description level, are Turing
emulable. In that case we get a continuous explosion of histories
(computations) going through our states already defined in arithmetic.
Our consciousness can stabilize only on the deep histories which are
also stable for a continuum of random fluctuations. Why? Because those
exists as defined by the law of elementary arithmetic, which is indeed
already Turing universal.

If the Mandelbrot set(*) M is Turing universal (or Post creative),
then it constitutes a good third person view of the multiverse. It is
constituted of an infinite but enumerable collection of tiny sub-
Mandelbrot sets, each of which is surrendered by a continuum of
histories (if you agree with the rule Y = II, that is, bifurcations of
the futures are differentiation of the pasts). You can literally see
the "histories" bifurcating infinitely often when converging on the
border of a sub-Mandelbrot set. The results of the bifurcations
organize themselves into converging "polygonal rings" with 2^n sides
(n going to the infinite).

(*) By Mandelbrot set I mean the rational Mandelbrot set: I mean his
intersection with Q X Q (Q = the rational number). See this to have a
look on 4 nices zoom (enlargement) on it. Obviously, no machines can
distinguish a zoom on M from a zoom on M intersected with Q X Q.

Here is just one video with four nice zooms on M (or M intersected
with Q X Q). The third and fifth one illustrates the convergence of
"bifurcating histories" on the border of M.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTuP02b_a7Y

If comp is true, and if M is creative, "you" are there. Each of your
possible states is dense on the border of M. There is always an
infinity of "3-you" between two "3-you". But from your own personal
perspective, it is far more complex, and a priori the M set don't
provide the information, I think you need to introduce the self-
reference logics to pursue the kind of analysis Everett has done on
the universal wave function.
Normally the quantum wave should be justified here, from M + a notion
of internal relative view.

Hmm... This de-zoom (followed by a zoom) illustrates very well too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lFT4H7E7Ac

The relation with arithmetic is that the question of 'rational
belongness to rational M' is expressible in elementary arithmetic, as
you can guess from the existence of those zooms, if you know how a
computer functions and and what is its relation with arithmetic.

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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