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Re: Status of PHP-GTK
by Steph-8
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Elizabeth M Smith wrote:
> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 08:40 -0400, Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
>>> I always love how so many people say this and so few people have/willing
Ain't that the truth.
>> Say What? Are you referring to coding or documentation. I have seen
>> many people offer to help with documentation and have been put off for
>> some reason or another.
This isn't.
> No one has been "put off" by anything - but when the things that NEED to
> be done are listed people are scared off. Unfortunately the docs are
> not even in a condition where you can just "fill out information in
> skeletons" atm.
That's very odd. Three years ago they were in such condition, but nobody wanted to do the work then either. Loads of would-be translators, but precious few actual manual contributions once Christian and I had moved on. The manual was always auto-generated following any changes, and this is the first I've heard that it no longer works for the English edition. All I ever hear about is broken notes.
The manual currently uses an adaptation of DocBook 3.17, and we have been through two new documentation-building projects for php.net manuals since that build system was written. The first of those projects (livedocs) would have required a complete rewrite to work properly with PHP-GTK docs purely because PHP documentation/DocBook isn't geared to objects; we got livedocs to build, but not to be useful. I agree that phd is a far better phpdoc build system (much faster rendering, no extended tools required for manual generation) but would dispute the need for a move to DocBook 5/phd just to get manual entries written. It's more a 'nice-to-have' than an imperative, and I recall both myself and Christian wasting a lot of time over livedocs that could have been better invested elsewhere. Both livedocs and phd assume a 'pure' DocBook base. See the ML archives for the problems with that when it comes to PHP-GTK (2001 and 2004-5).
> For the documentation
> 1. all the docbook needs to be updated to Docbook 5 (it's at 3 now)
I believe there was some reason we didn't make the move to DocBook 4 in the first place, since it was originally in the plans. Check the ML archives.
> there are several people in php-gtk working on this, if you want to help
> contact them (best place is freenode #php-gtk)
>
<snip />
>
> PHP-GTK could also do with an automake guru - there need to be some
> changes made to the configure stuff for HEAD that are not yet completed,
> but we don't currently have someone skilled enough at writing m4 macros ;)
Jani has been known to assist when we ask nicely and/or mention the need somewhere in public space. Not that m4 macros are horribly difficult, it's just when you need something to build across a wide range of systems it gets complicated. Jani has over a decade of making PHP build on a toaster behind him; you aren't going to find anyone who knows more. So really it's a case of getting PHP-GTK to build on the systems you have access to (Linux/MacOSX), and then asking for his help to broaden the range.
>> I have a simple Redhat Linux Fedora 9 install and can't build.
>>
>> If the goal is to have people use and build on it. It has to work.
>
> If all you need is a stable build - that's what tags in cvs are for,
> they are release versions (if you ever want a really fun time, try
> building PHP CVS head on a regular basis - ah the unicode madness)
Are you trying to put people off? ;)
I think what the OP was saying is that he's installed a RH package rather than built PHP-GTK from scratch. This would be the Linux equivalent of downloading a binary. (These days, it's possible to run Linux desktop and not have access to a compiler... madness IMHO, but there you go.)
<snip />
>
> If you're interested in helping with php-gtk I'd HIGHLY suggest you
> visit the IRC channel - it has a lot more going on than the mailing list
> - or introduce yourself on the php.gtk.dev list and volunteer "I'm
> willing to learn docbook/PhD/C and help out"
IRC shouldn't have a lot more going on than the mailing list, full stop, because it means there is no way for anyone outside the current working group to know what's going on. I for one had no idea any of the projects you mentioned above were under way; I only knew about Madeleine's ongoing quest for notes, and that's because she keeps the ML informed. And the OP thought PHP-GTK was a dead project.
- Steph
>
> Thanks,
> Elizabeth
>
>> Eddie
>>> to donate the time to do something about it.
>>>
>>> - bob.
>>>
>>>
>>> Harald Thoeny wrote:
>>>> the documentation on the website is a mess !
>>>>
>>>> we had a thread on this list with frustrated doc writers....
>>>> myself is also waiting for a better doc system!
>>>>
>>>> greetings
>>>>
>>>> harald
>>>>
>>>> Madeleine D. wrote:
>>>>> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list. Those who have the
>>>>> skills are busy working on an update. There's a lot of daily
>>>>> activity via kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
>>>>> which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck
>>>>> on getting fixed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Madeleine D.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>>>>>> Has this project become stale? What is the future of php-gtk? I hear
>>>>>> no chatter from the list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eddie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>
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> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 08:40 -0400, Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
>>> I always love how so many people say this and so few people have/willing
Ain't that the truth.
>> Say What? Are you referring to coding or documentation. I have seen
>> many people offer to help with documentation and have been put off for
>> some reason or another.
This isn't.
> No one has been "put off" by anything - but when the things that NEED to
> be done are listed people are scared off. Unfortunately the docs are
> not even in a condition where you can just "fill out information in
> skeletons" atm.
That's very odd. Three years ago they were in such condition, but nobody wanted to do the work then either. Loads of would-be translators, but precious few actual manual contributions once Christian and I had moved on. The manual was always auto-generated following any changes, and this is the first I've heard that it no longer works for the English edition. All I ever hear about is broken notes.
The manual currently uses an adaptation of DocBook 3.17, and we have been through two new documentation-building projects for php.net manuals since that build system was written. The first of those projects (livedocs) would have required a complete rewrite to work properly with PHP-GTK docs purely because PHP documentation/DocBook isn't geared to objects; we got livedocs to build, but not to be useful. I agree that phd is a far better phpdoc build system (much faster rendering, no extended tools required for manual generation) but would dispute the need for a move to DocBook 5/phd just to get manual entries written. It's more a 'nice-to-have' than an imperative, and I recall both myself and Christian wasting a lot of time over livedocs that could have been better invested elsewhere. Both livedocs and phd assume a 'pure' DocBook base. See the ML archives for the problems with that when it comes to PHP-GTK (2001 and 2004-5).
> For the documentation
> 1. all the docbook needs to be updated to Docbook 5 (it's at 3 now)
I believe there was some reason we didn't make the move to DocBook 4 in the first place, since it was originally in the plans. Check the ML archives.
> there are several people in php-gtk working on this, if you want to help
> contact them (best place is freenode #php-gtk)
>
<snip />
>
> PHP-GTK could also do with an automake guru - there need to be some
> changes made to the configure stuff for HEAD that are not yet completed,
> but we don't currently have someone skilled enough at writing m4 macros ;)
Jani has been known to assist when we ask nicely and/or mention the need somewhere in public space. Not that m4 macros are horribly difficult, it's just when you need something to build across a wide range of systems it gets complicated. Jani has over a decade of making PHP build on a toaster behind him; you aren't going to find anyone who knows more. So really it's a case of getting PHP-GTK to build on the systems you have access to (Linux/MacOSX), and then asking for his help to broaden the range.
>> I have a simple Redhat Linux Fedora 9 install and can't build.
>>
>> If the goal is to have people use and build on it. It has to work.
>
> If all you need is a stable build - that's what tags in cvs are for,
> they are release versions (if you ever want a really fun time, try
> building PHP CVS head on a regular basis - ah the unicode madness)
Are you trying to put people off? ;)
I think what the OP was saying is that he's installed a RH package rather than built PHP-GTK from scratch. This would be the Linux equivalent of downloading a binary. (These days, it's possible to run Linux desktop and not have access to a compiler... madness IMHO, but there you go.)
<snip />
>
> If you're interested in helping with php-gtk I'd HIGHLY suggest you
> visit the IRC channel - it has a lot more going on than the mailing list
> - or introduce yourself on the php.gtk.dev list and volunteer "I'm
> willing to learn docbook/PhD/C and help out"
IRC shouldn't have a lot more going on than the mailing list, full stop, because it means there is no way for anyone outside the current working group to know what's going on. I for one had no idea any of the projects you mentioned above were under way; I only knew about Madeleine's ongoing quest for notes, and that's because she keeps the ML informed. And the OP thought PHP-GTK was a dead project.
- Steph
>
> Thanks,
> Elizabeth
>
>> Eddie
>>> to donate the time to do something about it.
>>>
>>> - bob.
>>>
>>>
>>> Harald Thoeny wrote:
>>>> the documentation on the website is a mess !
>>>>
>>>> we had a thread on this list with frustrated doc writers....
>>>> myself is also waiting for a better doc system!
>>>>
>>>> greetings
>>>>
>>>> harald
>>>>
>>>> Madeleine D. wrote:
>>>>> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list. Those who have the
>>>>> skills are busy working on an update. There's a lot of daily
>>>>> activity via kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
>>>>> which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck
>>>>> on getting fixed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Madeleine D.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>>>>>> Has this project become stale? What is the future of php-gtk? I hear
>>>>>> no chatter from the list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eddie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>
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