Re: Stripes Ignored...Again

VANKEISBELCK Remi-2 wrote:

Hi again Matt,

Stripes doesn't play the same category than Wicket, for sure. Wicket
folks tend to be much more complicated... and noisy :-P
(just kidding I like Wicket a lot too).

Yes, we'd need more "advertisement" if we want more people to "get
Striped". Unfortunately, that's how life usually goes : fud has more
power than reason...

That's precisly why I replied your initial email : I didn't really
understand why you would not mention Stripes if you think it's a good
choice for MVC webapps.
It sounded to me like "hey, it's cool but nobody knows about it, so no
need to mention it"... hence my disappointment !! Reading this in
crappy papers for managers is not surprising... but I would have
expected that the great Matt Raible was beyond hype ;-P

I don't think we Stripers want to rule'em all. We've already made our
choice, and despite the criticism (most often based on pure fud), we
like Stripes cause it just makes our jobs more interesting, and more
productive. I don't really care if it gets Apache or becomes JSR-XYZ,
and customers/end-users care even less... Moreover, maybe it's so
reactive because of the "human" size of the project. Of course, it's a
pity when you read comparisons where Stripes isn't even represented,
but we can live with that.
On the other hand, we also need critical mass if we want the project
to survive, but I feel that we've already reached that point. Stripes
is simple, and doesn't try to address all problems. You don't need an
armada of devs to maintain it.

Anyway. We don't beg for any support. Once again it's your blog, you
write whatever you think appropriate in there, and promote the
frameworks of your choice, we're not trying to hijack by any mean. I
personnally read your blog quite often and like it a lot, you make
really good points.
But if you really think Stripes is a good option, and wanna help a
small but amazing, passionate community to become more sustainable,
please just drop a word or two for us in your next post...

Such small, simple things are like a smile : it doesn't cost you
anything, but still you have ROI !

And I really think it would be fair on a "scientific" level, as
Stripes deserves its place amongst the other frameworks you have
pointed out... maybe not in mailing lists stats or google page rank,
but at least technically ;-P

Cheers

Remi

On Nov 14, 2007 2:31 PM, mraible <matt@raibledesigns.com> wrote:
>
> You guys sound a lot like the Wicket guys a couple of years ago. Back then,
> they had low mailing list traffic and no books written about it. That's the
> same situation you are in. Now they have high traffic (one of the highest
> among Java web frameworks) and several books. In the past, they said both
> weren't important and now they've changed their tune.
>
> Sure, I could help market Stripes more, but that's not my job since I don't
> use it everyday. Marketing is best done by users showing solutions and how
> it's better than other frameworks. I think Stripes is great, but it doesn't
> strike me as leaps and bounds above Struts 2 or Spring MVC. For those of you
> who think different, there needs to be articles and blog posts written that
> explain why it's so much better.
>
> Stripes needs a book written about it if it ever wants to become mainstream.
> That's simply how the Java world works. Of course, if it doesn't want to
> become mainstream, then no further marketing needs to be done - and other
> frameworks will continue to cherry pick its best ideas.
>
> IMHO, the best thing that could happen is what Ted Husted tried to start a
> couple of years ago: merge Stripes, Spring MVC and Struts 2. They're all so
> similar it'd make things a lot easier. Maybe in the end the solution looks
> like Stripes does now, but it'd at least eliminate the confusion.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> VANKEISBELCK Remi-2 wrote:
> >
> > Hello Matt,
> >
> > No pun intended, but I don't understand the logic here...
> > If you really feel Stripes is great, but suffers from
> > "undermarketing", then why didn't you mention it in your blog ?
> >
> > Folks like you are probably our best way to market Stripes, being a
> > well known blogger in the JEE space with established reputation...
> > Us, poor anonymous coders, don't have such power when it comes to
> > "spread the word". We can talk about Stripes in technical words, but
> > we don't have thousands of decision makers listening to us.
> >
> > Stripes suffers under-marketing simply because it's been created by
> > techies for techies, not by people who's job is to hijack each thread
> > in every forum, just to sell their "shit".
> > We, Stripes users and devs, have more interesting stuff to do : push
> > what we think is the best MVC out there, and mof of all, use tools
> > that make us more productive. We live by selling apps, not paperware
> > or over-hyped articles.
> >
> > Last, I feel your comments "unfair" (once again no offense, just
> > constructive criticism), as I don't think most of the frameworks you
> > present in your blog entry are accepted as wide scale solutions in the
> > IT industry (Grails, Wicket etc.).
> >
> > It's easy to surf the hype wave. RIA and other Ajax stuff have all
> > eyes on them at the moment, so I guess blogging about them make many
> > hits... What's more complex is to try to go the opposite way, defend
> > principles you think are better, and resist the FUD.
> >
> > So, in the end, wasn't that blog entry a perfect place to talk about
> > Stripes ?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Remi
> >
> > On Nov 14, 2007 6:34 AM, mraible <matt@raibledesigns.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree that Stripes is an excellent framework. However, I also believe
> >> it
> >> needs better marketing. It's virtually unknown because there aren't that
> >> many articles, books or blogs posted about it. I've tried to sell it to
> >> companies on my last two projects and it's often shunned because no one
> >> has
> >> heard of it. Also, there's no "poster child" application that proves it's
> >> a
> >> great framework for a large-scale deployment.
> >>
> >> I definitely like it and would prefer to use it when developing an
> >> application that needs a request-based framework. However, it's been very
> >> difficult to convince companies that it's a good idea.
> >>
> >> More and more, I'm seeing Spring MVC chosen by companies because they are
> >> already using Spring in the middle-tier or backend. It's unfortunate, but
> >> I
> >> can also understand the justification behind it.
> >>
> >> Matt
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Gregg Bolinger-7 wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I know Stripes is young but its really solid.  However, it doesn't
> >> > hardly get a blip on the "which framework" radar.  I think this is
> >> > primarily because it's not a component framework. (thanks God).
> >> > Example, it was left off Matt Raible's latest blog entry:
> >> >
> >> > http://raibledesigns.com/rd/entry/comparing_web_frameworks_time_for
> >> >
> >> > I thought about leaving a comment but I don't really see the point.
> >> I'm
> >> > content to keep using it regardless of mass appeal.  I just hope that
> >> > there are enough folks that feel the same way so that it keeps being
> >> > developed.  What I don't understand is why other developers think that
> >> > convoluted monolithic beasts like Seam and Wicket are supperior?  And
> >> > what's up with GWT being on that list as a Web Framework?  It's a
> >> client
> >> > side rendering engine.  Same with Flex and OpenLazslo.  You can't
> >> > develop anything without server side code which neither frameworks
> >> > provide. Oh well.
> >> >
> >> > Gregg
> >> >
> >> >
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> >> >
> >>
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