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« Return to Thread: Stripes Ignored...Again
Re: Stripes Ignored...Again
by Gregg Bolinger-7
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>merge Stripes, Spring MVC and Struts 2.
Well, wouldn't that defeat the purpose and vision of what Stripes is?
I'll admit that Spring MVC has gotten better in 2.5. The nasty binding
tags are gone. But its still just not as simple as Stripes. Same with
Struts. There was mention in a comment in that article about how Struts
2 can have no XML config, Clean URL's etc. When I went and checked this
out you needed to turn on plugins to achieve this. Granted the current
release of Stripes doesn't have clean URL's but if you look at the 1.5
trunk and its features its all there. We just need to get it out the
door as at least an RC so we can promote that.
Folks have been complaining for years that web development in java is
too complicated. Stripes makes it simple yet folks still climb aboard
the monolith giant FUD buzz trains. I work for a company in KC and have
been working on projects for Adidas and using Stripes. Several other
smaller projects I've been involved with uses Stripes. Unfortunately
most are internal apps and so it makes it difficult to promote.
Everyone I've personally shows Stripes to is now using it when possible
and when it makes sense.
I plan on more blog articles about Stripes. A long the lines of my
latest one focusing on tutorials and how-to's. I've been playing around
with a draft on how Stripes is a perfect fit for a primarily AJAX
centric web application mainly because of its simplicity.
Gregg
mraible wrote:
> You guys sound a lot like the Wicket guys a couple of years ago. Back then,
> they had low mailing list traffic and no books written about it. That's the
> same situation you are in. Now they have high traffic (one of the highest
> among Java web frameworks) and several books. In the past, they said both
> weren't important and now they've changed their tune.
>
> Sure, I could help market Stripes more, but that's not my job since I don't
> use it everyday. Marketing is best done by users showing solutions and how
> it's better than other frameworks. I think Stripes is great, but it doesn't
> strike me as leaps and bounds above Struts 2 or Spring MVC. For those of you
> who think different, there needs to be articles and blog posts written that
> explain why it's so much better.
>
> Stripes needs a book written about it if it ever wants to become mainstream.
> That's simply how the Java world works. Of course, if it doesn't want to
> become mainstream, then no further marketing needs to be done - and other
> frameworks will continue to cherry pick its best ideas.
>
> IMHO, the best thing that could happen is what Ted Husted tried to start a
> couple of years ago: merge Stripes, Spring MVC and Struts 2. They're all so
> similar it'd make things a lot easier. Maybe in the end the solution looks
> like Stripes does now, but it'd at least eliminate the confusion.
>
> Matt
>
>
> VANKEISBELCK Remi-2 wrote:
>
>> Hello Matt,
>>
>> No pun intended, but I don't understand the logic here...
>> If you really feel Stripes is great, but suffers from
>> "undermarketing", then why didn't you mention it in your blog ?
>>
>> Folks like you are probably our best way to market Stripes, being a
>> well known blogger in the JEE space with established reputation...
>> Us, poor anonymous coders, don't have such power when it comes to
>> "spread the word". We can talk about Stripes in technical words, but
>> we don't have thousands of decision makers listening to us.
>>
>> Stripes suffers under-marketing simply because it's been created by
>> techies for techies, not by people who's job is to hijack each thread
>> in every forum, just to sell their "shit".
>> We, Stripes users and devs, have more interesting stuff to do : push
>> what we think is the best MVC out there, and mof of all, use tools
>> that make us more productive. We live by selling apps, not paperware
>> or over-hyped articles.
>>
>> Last, I feel your comments "unfair" (once again no offense, just
>> constructive criticism), as I don't think most of the frameworks you
>> present in your blog entry are accepted as wide scale solutions in the
>> IT industry (Grails, Wicket etc.).
>>
>> It's easy to surf the hype wave. RIA and other Ajax stuff have all
>> eyes on them at the moment, so I guess blogging about them make many
>> hits... What's more complex is to try to go the opposite way, defend
>> principles you think are better, and resist the FUD.
>>
>> So, in the end, wasn't that blog entry a perfect place to talk about
>> Stripes ?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Remi
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2007 6:34 AM, mraible <matt@...> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that Stripes is an excellent framework. However, I also believe
>>> it
>>> needs better marketing. It's virtually unknown because there aren't that
>>> many articles, books or blogs posted about it. I've tried to sell it to
>>> companies on my last two projects and it's often shunned because no one
>>> has
>>> heard of it. Also, there's no "poster child" application that proves it's
>>> a
>>> great framework for a large-scale deployment.
>>>
>>> I definitely like it and would prefer to use it when developing an
>>> application that needs a request-based framework. However, it's been very
>>> difficult to convince companies that it's a good idea.
>>>
>>> More and more, I'm seeing Spring MVC chosen by companies because they are
>>> already using Spring in the middle-tier or backend. It's unfortunate, but
>>> I
>>> can also understand the justification behind it.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gregg Bolinger-7 wrote:
>>>
>>>> I know Stripes is young but its really solid. However, it doesn't
>>>> hardly get a blip on the "which framework" radar. I think this is
>>>> primarily because it's not a component framework. (thanks God).
>>>> Example, it was left off Matt Raible's latest blog entry:
>>>>
>>>> http://raibledesigns.com/rd/entry/comparing_web_frameworks_time_for
>>>>
>>>> I thought about leaving a comment but I don't really see the point.
>>>>
>>> I'm
>>>
>>>> content to keep using it regardless of mass appeal. I just hope that
>>>> there are enough folks that feel the same way so that it keeps being
>>>> developed. What I don't understand is why other developers think that
>>>> convoluted monolithic beasts like Seam and Wicket are supperior? And
>>>> what's up with GWT being on that list as a Web Framework? It's a
>>>>
>>> client
>>>
>>>> side rendering engine. Same with Flex and OpenLazslo. You can't
>>>> develop anything without server side code which neither frameworks
>>>> provide. Oh well.
>>>>
>>>> Gregg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
>>>> Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
>>>> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
>>>> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Stripes-users mailing list
>>>> Stripes-users@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Stripes-Ignored...Again-tf4800043.html#a13740290
>>> Sent from the stripes-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
>>> Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
>>> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
>>> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stripes-users mailing list
>>> Stripes-users@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
>>>
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
>> Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
>> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
>> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stripes-users mailing list
>> Stripes-users@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
>>
>>
>>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
_______________________________________________
Stripes-users mailing list
Stripes-users@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Well, wouldn't that defeat the purpose and vision of what Stripes is?
I'll admit that Spring MVC has gotten better in 2.5. The nasty binding
tags are gone. But its still just not as simple as Stripes. Same with
Struts. There was mention in a comment in that article about how Struts
2 can have no XML config, Clean URL's etc. When I went and checked this
out you needed to turn on plugins to achieve this. Granted the current
release of Stripes doesn't have clean URL's but if you look at the 1.5
trunk and its features its all there. We just need to get it out the
door as at least an RC so we can promote that.
Folks have been complaining for years that web development in java is
too complicated. Stripes makes it simple yet folks still climb aboard
the monolith giant FUD buzz trains. I work for a company in KC and have
been working on projects for Adidas and using Stripes. Several other
smaller projects I've been involved with uses Stripes. Unfortunately
most are internal apps and so it makes it difficult to promote.
Everyone I've personally shows Stripes to is now using it when possible
and when it makes sense.
I plan on more blog articles about Stripes. A long the lines of my
latest one focusing on tutorials and how-to's. I've been playing around
with a draft on how Stripes is a perfect fit for a primarily AJAX
centric web application mainly because of its simplicity.
Gregg
mraible wrote:
> You guys sound a lot like the Wicket guys a couple of years ago. Back then,
> they had low mailing list traffic and no books written about it. That's the
> same situation you are in. Now they have high traffic (one of the highest
> among Java web frameworks) and several books. In the past, they said both
> weren't important and now they've changed their tune.
>
> Sure, I could help market Stripes more, but that's not my job since I don't
> use it everyday. Marketing is best done by users showing solutions and how
> it's better than other frameworks. I think Stripes is great, but it doesn't
> strike me as leaps and bounds above Struts 2 or Spring MVC. For those of you
> who think different, there needs to be articles and blog posts written that
> explain why it's so much better.
>
> Stripes needs a book written about it if it ever wants to become mainstream.
> That's simply how the Java world works. Of course, if it doesn't want to
> become mainstream, then no further marketing needs to be done - and other
> frameworks will continue to cherry pick its best ideas.
>
> IMHO, the best thing that could happen is what Ted Husted tried to start a
> couple of years ago: merge Stripes, Spring MVC and Struts 2. They're all so
> similar it'd make things a lot easier. Maybe in the end the solution looks
> like Stripes does now, but it'd at least eliminate the confusion.
>
> Matt
>
>
> VANKEISBELCK Remi-2 wrote:
>
>> Hello Matt,
>>
>> No pun intended, but I don't understand the logic here...
>> If you really feel Stripes is great, but suffers from
>> "undermarketing", then why didn't you mention it in your blog ?
>>
>> Folks like you are probably our best way to market Stripes, being a
>> well known blogger in the JEE space with established reputation...
>> Us, poor anonymous coders, don't have such power when it comes to
>> "spread the word". We can talk about Stripes in technical words, but
>> we don't have thousands of decision makers listening to us.
>>
>> Stripes suffers under-marketing simply because it's been created by
>> techies for techies, not by people who's job is to hijack each thread
>> in every forum, just to sell their "shit".
>> We, Stripes users and devs, have more interesting stuff to do : push
>> what we think is the best MVC out there, and mof of all, use tools
>> that make us more productive. We live by selling apps, not paperware
>> or over-hyped articles.
>>
>> Last, I feel your comments "unfair" (once again no offense, just
>> constructive criticism), as I don't think most of the frameworks you
>> present in your blog entry are accepted as wide scale solutions in the
>> IT industry (Grails, Wicket etc.).
>>
>> It's easy to surf the hype wave. RIA and other Ajax stuff have all
>> eyes on them at the moment, so I guess blogging about them make many
>> hits... What's more complex is to try to go the opposite way, defend
>> principles you think are better, and resist the FUD.
>>
>> So, in the end, wasn't that blog entry a perfect place to talk about
>> Stripes ?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Remi
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2007 6:34 AM, mraible <matt@...> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that Stripes is an excellent framework. However, I also believe
>>> it
>>> needs better marketing. It's virtually unknown because there aren't that
>>> many articles, books or blogs posted about it. I've tried to sell it to
>>> companies on my last two projects and it's often shunned because no one
>>> has
>>> heard of it. Also, there's no "poster child" application that proves it's
>>> a
>>> great framework for a large-scale deployment.
>>>
>>> I definitely like it and would prefer to use it when developing an
>>> application that needs a request-based framework. However, it's been very
>>> difficult to convince companies that it's a good idea.
>>>
>>> More and more, I'm seeing Spring MVC chosen by companies because they are
>>> already using Spring in the middle-tier or backend. It's unfortunate, but
>>> I
>>> can also understand the justification behind it.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gregg Bolinger-7 wrote:
>>>
>>>> I know Stripes is young but its really solid. However, it doesn't
>>>> hardly get a blip on the "which framework" radar. I think this is
>>>> primarily because it's not a component framework. (thanks God).
>>>> Example, it was left off Matt Raible's latest blog entry:
>>>>
>>>> http://raibledesigns.com/rd/entry/comparing_web_frameworks_time_for
>>>>
>>>> I thought about leaving a comment but I don't really see the point.
>>>>
>>> I'm
>>>
>>>> content to keep using it regardless of mass appeal. I just hope that
>>>> there are enough folks that feel the same way so that it keeps being
>>>> developed. What I don't understand is why other developers think that
>>>> convoluted monolithic beasts like Seam and Wicket are supperior? And
>>>> what's up with GWT being on that list as a Web Framework? It's a
>>>>
>>> client
>>>
>>>> side rendering engine. Same with Flex and OpenLazslo. You can't
>>>> develop anything without server side code which neither frameworks
>>>> provide. Oh well.
>>>>
>>>> Gregg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
>>>> Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
>>>> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
>>>> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Stripes-users mailing list
>>>> Stripes-users@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Stripes-Ignored...Again-tf4800043.html#a13740290
>>> Sent from the stripes-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
>>> Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
>>> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
>>> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stripes-users mailing list
>>> Stripes-users@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
>>>
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
>> Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
>> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
>> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stripes-users mailing list
>> Stripes-users@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
>>
>>
>>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
_______________________________________________
Stripes-users mailing list
Stripes-users@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
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