Re: Suggestion for translation improvement

[Osamu Aoki]

Hi,

On Mon, Sep 07, 2009 at 05:56:01PM +0200, Noel David Torres Taño wrote:

> Hello Osamu:
> Here:
>
> # type: Content of: <book><chapter><section><section><screen>
> #: debian-reference.en.xmlt:1022
> #, no-wrap
>
> Do you think it is technically possible to include an empty paragraph
> below, to allow translators to include the meaning of the two
> paragraphs about free software and the warranty?

There are 2 issues you raised here.

1. Paragraphs about free software and the warranty was in English.
2. You want to explain what it is in the following paragraph.
 
> If it is, I would move the discussion to the doc list to ask if they
> think it is worth.

Let's do so and think about solution.

To fix 1, replace the whole message with the one under you locale.
Unfortunately, this message is not a one translated for each local.  So
this option does not work here.

To fix 2, there are 2 ways.  

 * One proper way is to use "addendum"
   explained in po4a(7).  ("man 7 po4a").  (I never done this.  I am
   thinking to do this soon to add translators in appendix.)

 * Quick and easy way is to insert XML compliant text to the following
   section.  Since I can not do this in Spanish, I use English -> English translation as example here.

The first trial is:

# type: Content of: <book><chapter><section><section><simpara>
#: debian-reference.en.xmlt:1036
msgid "Here, the main part of the greeting message can be customized by editing the \"<literal>/etc/motd.tail</literal>\" file. The first line is generated from the system information using \"<literal>uname -snrvm</literal>\"."
msgstr "Here, the main part of the greeting message can be customized by editing the \"<literal>/etc/motd.tail</literal>\" file which states \"The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software; the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.  Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by applicable law.\"  The first line is generated from the system information using \"<literal>uname -snrvm</literal>\"."

Please note quotation marks are escaped by inverse slashes.  This is
very important to make source buildable.  But this style ended up too
redundant to my taste.

If you wish to have line folding, you can use \n to include return.  But then
it should become too complicated since this requires you to put in <literal>
... </literal>.  I strongly recommend not to use too much energy for
formatting.  This becomes too complicated to keep maintaining and extremely
redundant.

My Japanese translation did not explain English text.  But I am now thinking to
have short phrase such as:

msgstr "Here, the main part of the greeting message can be customized by editing the \"<literal>/etc/motd.tail</literal>\" file which states that the Debian GNU/Linux system consists of free software and comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.  The first line is generated from the system information using \"<literal>uname -snrvm</literal>\"."

This is not too complicated and does not destruct thought of the reader.  I
think you should do the same.  Done for Japanese.

Osamu


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[Noel David Torres Taño]

On Tuesday 08 September 2009 14:49:09 Osamu Aoki wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Sep 07, 2009 at 05:56:01PM +0200, Noel David Torres Taño wrote:
> > Hello Osamu:
> > Here:
> >
> > # type: Content of: <book><chapter><section><section><screen>
> > #: debian-reference.en.xmlt:1022
> > #, no-wrap
> >
> > Do you think it is technically possible to include an empty paragraph
> > below, to allow translators to include the meaning of the two
> > paragraphs about free software and the warranty?
>
> There are 2 issues you raised here.
>
> 1. Paragraphs about free software and the warranty was in English.
> 2. You want to explain what it is in the following paragraph.
>  
> > If it is, I would move the discussion to the doc list to ask if they
> > think it is worth.
>
> Let's do so and think about solution.
>
> To fix 1, replace the whole message with the one under you locale.
> Unfortunately, this message is not a one translated for each local.  So
> this option does not work here.
>
> To fix 2, there are 2 ways.  
>
>  * One proper way is to use "addendum"
>    explained in po4a(7).  ("man 7 po4a").  (I never done this.  I am
>    thinking to do this soon to add translators in appendix.)
>
>  * Quick and easy way is to insert XML compliant text to the following
>    section.  Since I can not do this in Spanish, I use English -> English translation as example here.
>
> The first trial is:
>
> # type: Content of: <book><chapter><section><section><simpara>
> #: debian-reference.en.xmlt:1036
> msgid "Here, the main part of the greeting message can be customized by editing the \"<literal>/etc/motd.tail</literal>\" file. The first line is generated from the system information using \"<literal>uname -snrvm</literal>\"."
> msgstr "Here, the main part of the greeting message can be customized by editing the \"<literal>/etc/motd.tail</literal>\" file which states \"The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software; the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.  Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by applicable law.\"  The first line is generated from the system information using \"<literal>uname -snrvm</literal>\"."
>
> Please note quotation marks are escaped by inverse slashes.  This is
> very important to make source buildable.  But this style ended up too
> redundant to my taste.
>
> If you wish to have line folding, you can use \n to include return.  But then
> it should become too complicated since this requires you to put in <literal>
> ... </literal>.  I strongly recommend not to use too much energy for
> formatting.  This becomes too complicated to keep maintaining and extremely
> redundant.
>
> My Japanese translation did not explain English text.  But I am now thinking to
> have short phrase such as:
>
> msgstr "Here, the main part of the greeting message can be customized by editing the \"<literal>/etc/motd.tail</literal>\" file which states that the Debian GNU/Linux system consists of free software and comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.  The first line is generated from the system information using \"<literal>uname -snrvm</literal>\"."
>
> This is not too complicated and does not destruct thought of the reader.  I
> think you should do the same.  Done for Japanese.
>
> Osamu
>
>

These are great ideas, I thought about them and I'm using the second in my temptative translation. But I was asking about if it possible to have something like a new paragraph not in the original XML.

Would it be legal to do something like this?

msgstr "Here, the main part of the greeting message can be customized by editing the \"<literal>/etc/motd.tail</literal>\" file.</screen><paragraph>The two english paragraphs state that the Debian GNU/Linux system consists of free software and comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.  The first line is generated from the system information using \"<literal>uname -snrvm</literal>\".</paragraph><screen>"

Or maybe, to avoid the empty <screen> at end, to do it at start of the NEXT paragraph, though ideal way may be having a NEW EMPTY paragraph in original which can be filled by translators.

...just trying to provide a second cent.

Noel
er Envite

[Osamu Aoki]

Hi,

On Wed, Sep 09, 2009 at 08:49:12AM +0200, Noel David Torres Taño wrote:
> On Tuesday 08 September 2009 14:49:09 Osamu Aoki wrote:
> > Hi,
...
> >  * One proper way is to use "addendum"
> >    explained in po4a(7).  ("man 7 po4a").  (I never done this.  I am
> >    thinking to do this soon to add translators in appendix.)

Did you read this document?
...

> These are great ideas, I thought about them and I'm using the second
> in my temptative translation. But I was asking about if it possible to
> have something like a new paragraph not in the original XML.

"addendum" is the way.

> Would it be legal to do something like this?

You mean "Would it be wise to do something like this?"  

> msgstr "Here, the main part of the greeting message can be customized
> by editing the \"<literal>/etc/motd.tail</literal>\"
> file.</screen><paragraph>The two english paragraphs state that the
> Debian GNU/Linux system consists of free software and comes with
> ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.  The first line is generated from the system
> information using \"<literal>uname
> -snrvm</literal>\".</paragraph><screen>"

It probably builds OK if tags were OK.  (You suggestion seems to be
broken but I did not check throughly.)

But forcing this kind of "TRICK" to work in the source makes source very
unmaintainable and thus unwise.  If you really need to do this, you
should use "addendum".  Otherwise, inserting unmatched tags inside PO is
bad idea and I really wish translator to avoid using such tricks.

> Or maybe, to avoid the empty <screen> at end, to do it at start of the
> NEXT paragraph, though ideal way may be having a NEW EMPTY paragraph
> in original which can be filled by translators.

"addendum" will let you do properly.  Please read "man 7 po4a".

> ...just trying to provide a second cent.

Yes, I understand.

Clean and readable source is the best way to keep long document to be
usable even when it goes through next revision and someone else to fix
problem associated with it.
 
Osamu


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[Noel David Torres Taño]

On Saturday 12 September 2009 14:00:53 Osamu Aoki wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Sep 09, 2009 at 08:49:12AM +0200, Noel David Torres Taño wrote:
> > On Tuesday 08 September 2009 14:49:09 Osamu Aoki wrote:
> > > Hi,
> ...
> > >  * One proper way is to use "addendum"
> > >    explained in po4a(7).  ("man 7 po4a").  (I never done this.  I am
> > >    thinking to do this soon to add translators in appendix.)
>
> Did you read this document?
> ...

Readed it, but my brain can not always stop thinking in the old ways.

>
> > These are great ideas, I thought about them and I'm using the second
> > in my temptative translation. But I was asking about if it possible to
> > have something like a new paragraph not in the original XML.
>
> "addendum" is the way.
>
> > Would it be legal to do something like this?
>
> You mean "Would it be wise to do something like this?"  

Was asking about XML correctness, I know it leads to unmaintenable translations.

>
> > msgstr "Here, the main part of the greeting message can be customized
> > by editing the \"<literal>/etc/motd.tail</literal>\"
> > file.</screen><paragraph>The two english paragraphs state that the
> > Debian GNU/Linux system consists of free software and comes with
> > ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.  The first line is generated from the system
> > information using \"<literal>uname
> > -snrvm</literal>\".</paragraph><screen>"
>
> It probably builds OK if tags were OK.  (You suggestion seems to be
> broken but I did not check throughly.)
>
> But forcing this kind of "TRICK" to work in the source makes source very
> unmaintainable and thus unwise.  If you really need to do this, you
> should use "addendum".  Otherwise, inserting unmatched tags inside PO is
> bad idea and I really wish translator to avoid using such tricks.
>
> > Or maybe, to avoid the empty <screen> at end, to do it at start of the
> > NEXT paragraph, though ideal way may be having a NEW EMPTY paragraph
> > in original which can be filled by translators.
>
> "addendum" will let you do properly.  Please read "man 7 po4a".
>
> > ...just trying to provide a second cent.
>
> Yes, I understand.
>
> Clean and readable source is the best way to keep long document to be
> usable even when it goes through next revision and someone else to fix
> problem associated with it.

Agree 100%
>  
> Osamu
>
>

Noel