Re: What is this forum for?

[Chuck Robey-5]

Wojciech Puchar wrote:
>> Hey folks, all of you, could I please sugggest that this entire thread
>> (under a
>> variety of subject names) is an abuse of the lists?
>
> Generally i do agree with you. But - in my opinion there are lots of
> other abuses. Whenever i pointed this out i got tons of protests from
> others.
>
> So please - who should decide what's on and whats off topic?

Wojciech, you want to respect POLA: the principle of least astonishment.  It's
not often applied to things like mailing lists, but folks exepct to see tech
support on FreeBSD-Questions, and things like FreeBSD-boosterisms and flamewars
on FreeBSD-chat, where they really are within the list rules.

Expecting any possible solution to work 100% of the time (especially anything
dealing with humans) is a very unfair tactic in trying to justify any view.
What you want to look for is a solution that causes the least problems, and
respecting the list rules does that.  It won't fix all problems, but it does
keep the noise level on our lists to a minimum, and maximizes the amount of help
that can be passed on our lists.  So, don't use the fact that you can point out
single failures as a justification to enable people to act like list juveniles.
 I can' be the only person who likes the FreeBSD lists because they have such a
far lower noise level than any Linux list, and we really do want to keep things
that way.  Respecting POLA is a fine way to go after that goal.

I replied to this on FreeBSD-chat.  Would really be appreciated if you could
leave it there, and if anyone then complains, I'll help you myself in keeping
the topic up, because it's a reasonable, allowed thing on FreeBSD-chat.

>
> For me - if talks about programs just because it runs under FreeBSD is
> OK, then everything is OK. About politics, sport, choosing printservers.
>
> Why telling someone that want to "switch" from windows to FreeBSD that
> better stay with windows is wrong? It's my opinion and my way to help
> him/her to save time. And it's proved, over hundred people i know that
> ever tried to "switch" to linux or FreeBSD, got back to windows within
> short time.
>
> Of course - switching the way of using computer from windows-style to
> unix-style is another thing, is very welcome and is likely to succeed.
>
> The argument "it's nothing wrong to help others" is a nonsense too. Yes
> - help, but about FreeBSD, or on other list, or on priv.
>
> Or maybe democratic method - when more and louder shouts it's right -
> it's right?!
>
> Doesn't you see a nonsense?!
>
> Once again - please DO MODERATED list, with clearly defined rules what's
> right and what's not. Whatever the rules will be (approved/defined by
> FreeBSD owners) - it will be OK.
>
> About stats i had to do - i AM working on this, but i was not aware how
> much work it needs. I'm reading mails from february each year, and now
> "processed" four years only.
>
> So sorry for not doing it for today morning, but i wasn't aware it's too
> short time.
>
>
> Another question - some of you said that "outdated" hardware is welcome
> too as gifts for FreeBSD team.
>
> I actually have lots of them, and NON-typical things, that would be
> useful. I prepared a list, and can make photos.
>
> I already sent a mail to one developer but got no response. Maybe he is
> just busy or absent, anyway what's the best address for this.

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[Wojciech Puchar-5]

> Wojciech, you want to respect POLA: the principle of least astonishment.  It's

could you explain this more. really first time i read this phrase :)

> not often applied to things like mailing lists, but folks exepct to see tech
> support on FreeBSD-Questions,

me too, support about FREEBSD, not spam about others.

and things like FreeBSD-boosterisms and flamewars
> on FreeBSD-chat, where they really are within the list rules.
>
> Expecting any possible solution to work 100% of the time (especially anything

i don't expect it to work 100% of time, but most of time.

current slution doesn't work most of the time, giving 10% about FreeBSD
and 90% off-topic, even excluding "flamewars".

> dealing with humans) is a very unfair tactic in trying to justify any
view.
> What you want to look for is a solution that causes the least problems, and
> respecting the list rules does that.

Where are this rules defined?

best with moderation BUT EVEN WITHOUT, but with clearly defined rules on
webpage it could be efficient.

the more clear - the more efficient. possibly some most-common examples to
make it even clearer.


>  It won't fix all problems, but it does
> keep the noise level on our lists to a minimum, and maximizes the amount of help
> that can be passed on our lists.

Help at all or help about FreeBSD. if at all - then let it be about
everything.

>> Another question - some of you said that "outdated" hardware is welcome
>> too as gifts for FreeBSD team.
>>
>> I actually have lots of them, and NON-typical things, that would be
>> useful. I prepared a list, and can make photos.
>>
>> I already sent a mail to one developer but got no response. Maybe he is
>> just busy or absent, anyway what's the best address for this.
>
>

just got this after a day:

---
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 23:47:08 +0400
From: Boris Samorodov <bsam@...>
To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@...>
Subject: Re: sponsoring

On Fri, 29 May 2009 22:27:43 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar wrote:

> you said that "outdated hardware" are very welcome.

No, I had never said it. Please, stop spamming me.


---


OK so fuck off Boris, but we were talking some time ago about dumping
potential sponsors ;)


anyone want to see my mail(s) it was a reply to?
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[itetcu]

On Sat, 30 May 2009 22:09:04 +0200 (CEST)
Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@...> wrote:

 [ .. ]

> > dealing with humans) is a very unfair tactic in trying to justify
> > any view.
> > What you want to look for is a solution that causes the least
> > problems, and respecting the list rules does that.
>
> Where are this rules defined?

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/freebsd-questions/

> best with moderation BUT EVEN WITHOUT, but with clearly defined rules
> on webpage it could be efficient.

Let's make a test case: please compare your emails with the rules and
suggestions in above two articles.

We spend a few hours per day *working* on improving FreeBSD, doing also
moderating is just to much.
Besides, we expect people to behave intelligently and politely. Life
keeps contradicting us it seems :-[

> the more clear - the more efficient. possibly some most-common
> examples to make it even clearer.
>
> >  It won't fix all problems, but it does
> > keep the noise level on our lists to a minimum, and maximizes the
> > amount of help that can be passed on our lists.
>
> Help at all or help about FreeBSD. if at all - then let it be about
> everything.
>
> >> Another question - some of you said that "outdated" hardware is
> >> welcome too as gifts for FreeBSD team.
> >>
> >> I actually have lots of them, and NON-typical things, that would be
> >> useful. I prepared a list, and can make photos.
> >>
> >> I already sent a mail to one developer but got no response. Maybe
> >> he is just busy or absent, anyway what's the best address for this.

Please contact donations@

> just got this after a day:
>
> ---
> Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 23:47:08 +0400
> From: Boris Samorodov <bsam@...>
> To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@...>
> Subject: Re: sponsoring
>
> On Fri, 29 May 2009 22:27:43 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar wrote:
>
> > you said that "outdated hardware" are very welcome.
>
> No, I had never said it. Please, stop spamming me.
>
>
> ---
>
>
> OK so fuck off Boris, but we were talking some time ago about dumping
> potential sponsors ;)

Watch you language please.

> anyone want to see my mail(s) it was a reply to?

No. Really not. Given the way you behaved in this thread you're one
step away from my killfile.

Maybe you should take a few days and think if all the people
disagreeing here with you are wrong.

--
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  "Intellectual Property" is   nowhere near as valuable   as "Intellect"
FreeBSD committer -> itetcu@..., PGP Key ID 057E9F8B493A297B

[Wojciech Puchar-5]

>>
>> Where are this rules defined?
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html
> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/freebsd-questions/

first - good that's proper definition of hacker explained.

---
FreeBSD-questions is a mailing list maintained by the FreeBSD project to
help people who have questions about the normal use of FreeBSD.
---

while i still don't agree that many of things done is "normal use of
freebsd" but that's my point of view.

So:

- it's fine here to ask about mysql5 or mysql6 as it is normal view of
FreeBSD.
- it's not fine here to ask about sponsoring as it's not normal (and any)
use of FreeBSD.
- it's fine both to ask here about how to switch from windows, and
presenting my point of view about this idea.

I think we finally agree, So i will subscribe to FreeBSD-hackers, but with
some fear. i don't classify myself as a FreeBSD-hacker. I understand C and
can code, but everytime i like to do even smallest modification in kernel
it's quite time consuming, as it's really very complex amount of code.

>
>> best with moderation BUT EVEN WITHOUT, but with clearly defined rules
>> on webpage it could be efficient.
>
> Let's make a test case: please compare your emails with the rules and
> suggestions in above two articles.

Already did. And until we started to argue about moderation, it's
mostly compliant. Then - it was not. For mostly two reasons.

First - because i was attacked when presenting my opinion, just because it
was not "mainstream" (but not aggressive).
Second - after it continued i wanted You to start moderation.

>
> We spend a few hours per day *working* on improving FreeBSD, doing also
> moderating is just to much.

First - thank you very much for this. I'm a happy user of YOUR WORK, and i
wish you will keep this as good as now in future, as there is no other
unix that i don't consider crap today.

i think i could find more people if you decide to start moderation.
Whatever this people personal preferences are - won't matter as they would
be just executors of rules defined by YOU.

Just please contact me and tell beforehand, i will start asking people
privately, having timezones in mind.

So you will not need any extra work.

> Besides, we expect people to behave intelligently and politely. Life
> keeps contradicting us it seems :-[

Agreed.

>>>> I already sent a mail to one developer but got no response. Maybe
>>>> he is just busy or absent, anyway what's the best address for this.
>
> Please contact donations@

OK.
>> OK so fuck off Boris, but we were talking some time ago about dumping
>> potential sponsors ;)
>
> Watch you language please.

Such language is used on special cases like this. So please replace this
words with other with the same meaning :)
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[Rick Nekus]

 It kind of reminds me of George Carlin - "Its Bad For Ya"  (on any youyube)

 

:)


 

> Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:44:46 +0200
> From: wojtek@...
> To: itetcu@...
> CC: sonicy@...; Ggatten@...; chuckr@...; freebsd-chat@...
> Subject: Re: What is this forum for?
>
> >>
> >> Where are this rules defined?
> >
> > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html
> > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/freebsd-questions/
>
> first - good that's proper definition of hacker explained.
>
> ---
> FreeBSD-questions is a mailing list maintained by the FreeBSD project to
> help people who have questions about the normal use of FreeBSD.
> ---
>
> while i still don't agree that many of things done is "normal use of
> freebsd" but that's my point of view.
>
> So:
>
> - it's fine here to ask about mysql5 or mysql6 as it is normal view of
> FreeBSD.
> - it's not fine here to ask about sponsoring as it's not normal (and any)
> use of FreeBSD.
> - it's fine both to ask here about how to switch from windows, and
> presenting my point of view about this idea.
>
> I think we finally agree, So i will subscribe to FreeBSD-hackers, but with
> some fear. i don't classify myself as a FreeBSD-hacker. I understand C and
> can code, but everytime i like to do even smallest modification in kernel
> it's quite time consuming, as it's really very complex amount of code.
>
> >
> >> best with moderation BUT EVEN WITHOUT, but with clearly defined rules
> >> on webpage it could be efficient.
> >
> > Let's make a test case: please compare your emails with the rules and
> > suggestions in above two articles.
>
> Already did. And until we started to argue about moderation, it's
> mostly compliant. Then - it was not. For mostly two reasons.
>
> First - because i was attacked when presenting my opinion, just because it
> was not "mainstream" (but not aggressive).
> Second - after it continued i wanted You to start moderation.
>
> >
> > We spend a few hours per day *working* on improving FreeBSD, doing also
> > moderating is just to much.
>
> First - thank you very much for this. I'm a happy user of YOUR WORK, and i
> wish you will keep this as good as now in future, as there is no other
> unix that i don't consider crap today.
>
> i think i could find more people if you decide to start moderation.
> Whatever this people personal preferences are - won't matter as they would
> be just executors of rules defined by YOU.
>
> Just please contact me and tell beforehand, i will start asking people
> privately, having timezones in mind.
>
> So you will not need any extra work.
>
> > Besides, we expect people to behave intelligently and politely. Life
> > keeps contradicting us it seems :-[
>
> Agreed.
>
> >>>> I already sent a mail to one developer but got no response. Maybe
> >>>> he is just busy or absent, anyway what's the best address for this.
> >
> > Please contact donations@
>
> OK.
> >> OK so fuck off Boris, but we were talking some time ago about dumping
> >> potential sponsors ;)
> >
> > Watch you language please.
>
> Such language is used on special cases like this. So please replace this
> words with other with the same meaning :)
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat
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[spellberg_robert]

[ with an admonition from Ion-Mihai Tetcu, ]
   Wojciech Puchar wrote
   [ with some minor formatting from your author ]:

[ snip ]

>>> OK so [ expletive deleted; thank you, mr. president ] off Boris,
 >>>   but we were talking some time ago about dumping potential sponsors ;)
>>
>> Watch you language please.
>
> Such language is used on special cases like this.
 > So please replace this words with other with the same meaning :)

[ snip ]



no, it isn't.

no, others won't.



notwithstanding your use of a "smiley_face",
   as far as i am concerned,
   on any mailing_list or other communications forum accessible by children,
   such language is "verboten".



one of the several unimpeachable benefits of
   the american "motion picture production code administration",
   a/k/a "the hays office" [ after william hays ] or
   "the breen office" [ after joseph breen ],
   was that all films were viewable by children.

even before its strict enforcement began [ 1934_july_01 ],
   the warner brothers' "gangsters", for example,
   didn't need to use such language.
a particularly telling instance is "the public enemy" [ 1931 ],
   in which james cagney, in a conversation with mae clarke,
   made an emphatic point, substantially similar to your point to boris,
   by his adept use of a grapefruit_half.
he demonstrated this skill, again, in "white heat" [ 1949 ],
   because she was a slow_learner.
an examination of the works of [ i could name, oh, so many ]
   edward g. robinson, paul muni, george raft and humphrey bogart
   will be similarly unrewarding.

in fact, "bogie" and, his wife, lauren bacall
   elevated the "double_entendre" to an art_form
   [ for examples,
       see the "memorable quotes" section of "the big sleep" [ 1946 ] here:

       http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038355/quotes

   ].

we can all learn from the writings of great authors.



now that america is, officially, totalitarian,
   permit me to reference the work of
   that great international communist, jules dassin.

did burt lancaster use such language,
   after the abuse he received
   at the hands of hume cronyn in "brute force" [ 1947 ] ?
what about ted de corsia,
   when he pistol_whipped don taylor in "the naked city" [ 1948 ] ?
every adult knew that
   valentina cortese was a "massage therapist" in "thieves' highway" [ 1949 ],
   his testament to the corruption
   inherent in american entrpreneurial capitalism and small business,
   but, the rug_rats thought she was a "fortune_teller";
   erudite, wasn't she ?
let us not forget the fast_talking weasel, richard widmark,
   in "night and the city" [ 1950 ], who maintained his civility,
   right up to his final scene with that famous wordsmith,
   the laconic mike mazurki.



finally,
   lest some readers complain that your author is being parochial,
   i submit one example, from radio, where "mean joe breen" had no authority.

jack benny,
   the greatest comedian in the history of entertainment,
   not --ever-- uttered a "blue" word,
   except, of course, in reference to his eyes.

rob

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[Kevin Kinsey]

spellberg_robert wrote:

<snip>

> finally,
>   lest some readers complain that your author is being parochial,
>   i submit one example, from radio, where "mean joe breen" had no
> authority.
>
> jack benny,
>   the greatest comedian in the history of entertainment,
>   not --ever-- uttered a "blue" word,
>   except, of course, in reference to his eyes.
>
> rob

ROFL!  LOL!  COTFLGOHAHA!

BBN, BBSL, CYL,

Kevin Kinsey

P.S.  FWIW, loved the post, but thought a few uppercase letters
might help in the long run.  
---
I had no shoes and I pitied myself.  Then I met a man who had no feet,
so I took his shoes.
                -- Dave Barry
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[Dag-Erling Smørgrav]

spellberg_robert <emailrob@...> writes:
> notwithstanding your use of a "smiley_face",
>   as far as i am concerned,
>   on any mailing_list or other communications forum accessible by children,
>   such language is "verboten".

This has nothing to do with children.  It is simply a matter of
politeness.

> one of the several unimpeachable benefits of
>   the american "motion picture production code administration",
>   a/k/a "the hays office" [ after william hays ] or
>   "the breen office" [ after joseph breen ],
>   was that all films were viewable by children.

Only by US standards.  What do you think hurts a child more: to see a
woman's breast or hear the word "fuck", or to see cowboys and indians
(or their modern equivalent) disembowel each other?

DES
--
Dag-Erling Smørgrav - des@...
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[Charlie Kester]

On Wed 03 Jun 2009 at 03:15:22 PDT Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
>
>Only by US standards.  What do you think hurts a child more: to see a
>woman's breast or hear the word "fuck", or to see cowboys and indians
>(or their modern equivalent) disembowel each other?

How many children read the FreeBSD mailing lists?

I've always thought that BSD is an OS for grownups.
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[Rick Nekus]

 sorry for thr msn response but:

now how did we all get this out of whack ?

-what!, we'll pontificate on what defines the age/pubescent/hair on balls, ...,/... barrier maybe what defines children and what defines a grownup.?

 Does it "really" matter? NO.

I havent checked, maybe there is a "freebsd-etiquette" forum or whatever to discuss the further development of the "rules of text-engagement" ?

 But, being this is freebsd-chat it's mostly about things freebsd -but not toooooo seriously? -hence freebsd-chat.

 

 If we might need a freebsd-mature-puberty-middleaged-children-oldfart-7badwords ?, then that would be too bad.

'cause many others prefer the "freedom of expression" at all costs, too much for that.

 

:)

 
 

> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 09:35:37 -0700
> From: corky1951@...
> To: freebsd-chat@...
> Subject: Re: [ fbsd_chat ] Re: What is this forum for?
>
> On Wed 03 Jun 2009 at 03:15:22 PDT Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
> >
> >Only by US standards. What do you think hurts a child more: to see a
> >woman's breast or hear the word "fuck", or to see cowboys and indians
> >(or their modern equivalent) disembowel each other?
>
> How many children read the FreeBSD mailing lists?
>
> I've always thought that BSD is an OS for grownups.
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[Lowell Gilbert-10]

Charlie Kester <corky1951@...> writes:

> On Wed 03 Jun 2009 at 03:15:22 PDT Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
>>
>>Only by US standards.  What do you think hurts a child more: to see a
>>woman's breast or hear the word "fuck", or to see cowboys and indians
>>(or their modern equivalent) disembowel each other?
>
> How many children read the FreeBSD mailing lists?

And if there are some, how many of them does it take to change a light bulb?
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[Kevin Wilcox-3]

2009/6/3 Lowell Gilbert <freebsd-chat-local@...>:

> Charlie Kester <corky1951@...> writes:

>> On Wed 03 Jun 2009 at 03:15:22 PDT Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:

>>>Only by US standards.  What do you think hurts a child more: to see a
>>>woman's breast or hear the word "fuck", or to see cowboys and indians
>>>(or their modern equivalent) disembowel each other?

>> How many children read the FreeBSD mailing lists?

> And if there are some, how many of them does it take to change a light bulb?

Five. One to change the bulb, one to hold the ladder and three to
argue whether the bulb, the ladder or changing the bulb is what's
off-topic.

kmw

--
To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that
of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others,
who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is
to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, ‘the
guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, & the
fruits acquired by it.'
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[Rick Nekus]

 

> To: freebsd-chat@...
> From: freebsd-chat-local@...
> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:23:17 -0400
> Subject: Re: [ fbsd_chat ] Re: What is this forum for?
>
> Charlie Kester <corky1951@...> writes:
>
> > On Wed 03 Jun 2009 at 03:15:22 PDT Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
> >>
> >>Only by US standards. What do you think hurts a child more: to see a
> >>woman's breast or hear the word "fuck", or to see cowboys and indians
> >>(or their modern equivalent) disembowel each other?
> >
> > How many children read the FreeBSD mailing lists?
>
> And if there are some, how many of them does it take to change a light bulb?

 

...as many as it takes to make them for slave labour.



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[Rick Nekus]

 geeez, thanks for fishing me into this one bud.


 

> From: solarux@...
> To: freebsd-chat@...
> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:01:05 +0000
> Subject: RE: [ fbsd_chat ] Re: What is this forum for?
>
>
>
>
> > To: freebsd-chat@...
> > From: freebsd-chat-local@...
> > Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:23:17 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [ fbsd_chat ] Re: What is this forum for?
> >
> > Charlie Kester <corky1951@...> writes:
> >
> > > On Wed 03 Jun 2009 at 03:15:22 PDT Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
> > >>
> > >>Only by US standards. What do you think hurts a child more: to see a
> > >>woman's breast or hear the word "fuck", or to see cowboys and indians
> > >>(or their modern equivalent) disembowel each other?
> > >
> > > How many children read the FreeBSD mailing lists?
> >
> > And if there are some, how many of them does it take to change a light bulb?
>
>
>
> ...as many as it takes to make them for slave labour.
>
>
>
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[Rick Nekus]

Fishing with children:

 

 Well, you got me at a disadvantage here, being my Dad died this morning, (June 3rd, 2009@2AM)so I'll chock this one up to a pseudo-shakespearean tragedy - HINDSIGHT.

 If you don't know (or especially if you're not sure) what you're gonna do or say exactly, "...then 'fer gawd sakes don't open your big fat mouth,..." on the other hand I questioned, (while we were fishing in Lake Ontario many-moons ago) I asked, if you don't say/ask anything how will "they" know what should be done (according to myself, of course) ?

 -'ya know, typical children's response (why is the sky blue ?, ... blah, blah, blah).

 

 Of course, a typical (mine anyway) Dad's response was "shutup" and pass me that fuckin' pike lure so we can get some fishin' done today. !

:)

 

 yup, its all good. -so keep it up guys, gals, children, ....

 

I owe him atleast that much thanks.

 

 

 Rick.


 

> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:54:14 -0400
> From: kevin.wilcox@...
> To: freebsd-chat-local@...
> CC: freebsd-chat@...
> Subject: Re: [ fbsd_chat ] Re: What is this forum for?
>
> 2009/6/3 Lowell Gilbert <freebsd-chat-local@...>:
>
> > Charlie Kester <corky1951@...> writes:
>
> >> On Wed 03 Jun 2009 at 03:15:22 PDT Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
>
> >>>Only by US standards.  What do you think hurts a child more: to see a
> >>>woman's breast or hear the word "fuck", or to see cowboys and indians
> >>>(or their modern equivalent) disembowel each other?
>
> >> How many children read the FreeBSD mailing lists?
>
> > And if there are some, how many of them does it take to change a light bulb?
>
> Five. One to change the bulb, one to hold the ladder and three to
> argue whether the bulb, the ladder or changing the bulb is what's
> off-topic.
>
> kmw
>
> --
> To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that
> of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others,
> who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is
> to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, ‘the
> guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, & the
> fruits acquired by it.'
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[KAYVEN RIESE]

Words don't kill children.  People with small minded attitudes about
oppression like this kill children.

On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, spellberg_robert wrote:

> [ with an admonition from Ion-Mihai Tetcu, ]
>  Wojciech Puchar wrote
>  [ with some minor formatting from your author ]:
>
> [ snip ]
>
>>>> OK so [ expletive deleted; thank you, mr. president ] off Boris,
>>>>   but we were talking some time ago about dumping potential sponsors ;)
>>>
>>> Watch you language please.
>>
>> Such language is used on special cases like this.
>> So please replace this words with other with the same meaning :)
>
> [ snip ]
>
>
>
> no, it isn't.
>
> no, others won't.
>
>
>
> notwithstanding your use of a "smiley_face",
>  as far as i am concerned,
>  on any mailing_list or other communications forum accessible by children,
>  such language is "verboten".
>
>
>
> one of the several unimpeachable benefits of
>  the american "motion picture production code administration",
>  a/k/a "the hays office" [ after william hays ] or
>  "the breen office" [ after joseph breen ],
>  was that all films were viewable by children.
>
> even before its strict enforcement began [ 1934_july_01 ],
>  the warner brothers' "gangsters", for example,
>  didn't need to use such language.
> a particularly telling instance is "the public enemy" [ 1931 ],
>  in which james cagney, in a conversation with mae clarke,
>  made an emphatic point, substantially similar to your point to boris,
>  by his adept use of a grapefruit_half.
> he demonstrated this skill, again, in "white heat" [ 1949 ],
>  because she was a slow_learner.
> an examination of the works of [ i could name, oh, so many ]
>  edward g. robinson, paul muni, george raft and humphrey bogart
>  will be similarly unrewarding.
>
> in fact, "bogie" and, his wife, lauren bacall
>  elevated the "double_entendre" to an art_form
>  [ for examples,
>      see the "memorable quotes" section of "the big sleep" [ 1946 ] here:
>
>      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038355/quotes
>
>  ].
>
> we can all learn from the writings of great authors.
>
>
>
> now that america is, officially, totalitarian,
>  permit me to reference the work of
>  that great international communist, jules dassin.
>
> did burt lancaster use such language,
>  after the abuse he received
>  at the hands of hume cronyn in "brute force" [ 1947 ] ?
> what about ted de corsia,
>  when he pistol_whipped don taylor in "the naked city" [ 1948 ] ?
> every adult knew that
>  valentina cortese was a "massage therapist" in "thieves' highway" [ 1949 ],
>  his testament to the corruption
>  inherent in american entrpreneurial capitalism and small business,
>  but, the rug_rats thought she was a "fortune_teller";
>  erudite, wasn't she ?
> let us not forget the fast_talking weasel, richard widmark,
>  in "night and the city" [ 1950 ], who maintained his civility,
>  right up to his final scene with that famous wordsmith,
>  the laconic mike mazurki.
>
>
>
> finally,
>  lest some readers complain that your author is being parochial,
>  i submit one example, from radio, where "mean joe breen" had no authority.
>
> jack benny,
>  the greatest comedian in the history of entertainment,
>  not --ever-- uttered a "blue" word,
>  except, of course, in reference to his eyes.
>
> rob
>
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*----------------------------------------------------------*
   Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics)
   [phone] cellular
   http://kayve.net
   Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org
*----------------------------------------------------------*
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[Brett Glass]

At 04:15 AM 6/3/2009, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:

>Only by US standards.  What do you think hurts a child more: to see a
>woman's breast or hear the word "fuck", or to see cowboys and indians
>(or their modern equivalent) disembowel each other?

Some folks on the FreeBSD lists seem to find it far more
inflammatory to talk about how to build a bike shed. ;-)

--Brett Glass

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[spellberg_robert]

wowie_zowie, suzy cream_cheese; what's got into you ?



golly, gee whillikers, kids,
   a fella can start a flame_war without even trying;
   i feel so ... validated.



mr. kinsey - you are welcome.

mr. smorgrav - you are right about one thing; there --is-- a civility aspect to this.
my question to you is:
   did you intend to agree with me that the "production code" was a good thing ?

mr. kester - you pose a thoughtful request for clarification; see below.

mr. wilcox - i liked your quote; please tell me, who said it ?

mr. n. - please accept my sincerest condolences on the passing of your father.
i lost mine in 1994.
he worked 6-1/2 days/week, so family_time was precious.
one sunday [ i believe it was in july, 1968 ],
   i persuaded him to take me on a steam_locomotive excursion.
about a year earlier, i had discovered serious railroading.
i could tell that he wasn't as enthused as i was, but,
   gamely, he put up a brave front.
while driving home, after we returned, he confessed that
   he had anticipated that he would not enjoy the experience, but, that,
   to his surprise, he had had quite_a_bit of fun.
he had not realized that
   the kinds of people who do this sort of thing are many and varied.
to paraphraze a familiar motorcycle_advertising_jingle of the day,
   "you meet the nicest people in a gondola".
i had caused him to forget about his work_related cares for an afternoon.

mr. riese - i must confess that
   i am not completely certain that you are not joking.
assuming you to be serious, please identify:
   a]  the identity of the person who, first, proposed the death of children;
   b]  the nature of the "oppression";
   c]  the number and kind of the "attitudes" and their location[s] in the post.



people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear.
my point, for the benefit of those few who did not understand, was that
   one need not swear to make one's point.
this is true without regard to the amount of emphasis desired and
   without regard to the thermal character of the discussion.

i gave several examples, from film, of situations among adults where
   swearing would not be untoward, as well as
   one, from radio, illustrating that
   one can be phenomenally popular without sprinkling words about.
even before the strict enforcement of the code, swearing was not done.
griffith and demille [ to name two ] had plenty of breasts, but,
   there wasn't any swearing.
barbara stanwyck "advanced her career" in "baby face" [ 1933 ]
   [ look for john wayne in the mail_room ], but,
   she did not swear.
i recently got a dvd of "high noon" [ 1952 ], so, after viewing this,
   i viewed "blazing saddles" [ 1974 ], as i was thinking that
   the two would make a nice double_feature
   for some friends at a party that i was planning.
what surprized me was
   the degree to which the language actually --detracted-- from what is
   an, otherwise, funny film
   [ i do not refer to the ethnic epithets,
       for these were possible even during the hey_dey of the code;
       as an example, see "no way out" [ 1950 ],
       a serious film about racism between
       richard widmark and sidney poitier
   ].
the shock_value was gone; the film was dated.



as to the definition of "child" and whether any read these posts,
   i refer the interested reader to
   "the design and implementation of the freebsd operating system",
   mckusick and neville_neil, addison_wesley, 2005 [ referencing v5.2 ].
from page 17:
   "the typical new committer to the freebsd project is
   in their mid_ to late 20s and has been
   programming linux or other open_source projects for a decade."

because we number our birth_days from zero,
   one can define the mid_twenties to commence at age 23-1/3,
   perhaps, the twenty_third anniversary itself.
therefore, a thirteen_year_old would fit the above description.

i argue that it is not_at_all_unreasonable to expect that
   there are --young-- teen_agers perusing these lists because
   they have discovered computation to be
   an outlet for their creative energy.

q:  do we wish to present an image of academic professionalism or
       are some of us no better than sailors in a brothel ?

for you freedom_of_expression_at_any_cost types,
   i remind you that
   there --is-- a difference between "liberty" and "libertine".



finally, to mr. glass -
   is that an incandescent bike_shed or a compact_flourescent bike_shed ?
we want to include the correct materials_handling_notice with
   the assembly_instructions in the kit.

rob

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