Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package?

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	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Lowell Gilbert :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Green! No, no, Blue! AAaaaagggghhhh -- Lowell Gilbert, embedded/networking software engineer, Boston area http://be-well.ilk.org/~lowell/ _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Robert-296 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:54:44 -0400 Lowell Gilbert <freebsd-questions-local@...> wrote: > Green! No, no, Blue! AAaaaagggghhhh > I think it should be disque shaped. _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Kevin Kinsey :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: > On Tuesday 27 October 2009 7:22:22 pm Lowell Gilbert wrote: >> I probably should move this bikeshed to freebsd-chat... I'd like the bikeshed blue, please. Also, since Sendmail has reached maturity, let's baptize it now instead of during infancy, and add a knob FEATURE(require_calvinism). Also, I'm attending the annual meeting of my Sendmail Users Anonymous Group (SMAUG) tomorrow (it's annual because there are SO FEW of us we had to scour the world to find a quorum and it makes economic sense to to meet just once a year), where I'll ask Pope Eric to call up troops to end this holy war on this list once and for all. I'm sharpening blades in the shop even as I write this! DEUS VULT!!!! 'Nuff ... please? Kevin Kinsey _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Lowell Gilbert :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Gonzalo Nemmi <gnemmi@...> writes: > On Tuesday 27 October 2009 7:22:22 pm Lowell Gilbert wrote: >> I probably should move this bikeshed to freebsd-chat... And now I actually am... >> Gonzalo Nemmi <gnemmi@...> writes: >> > On Tuesday 27 October 2009 6:20:35 pm Frank Shute wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 09:24:58PM +0200, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >> >> I can imagine that a lot of people do use sendmail - it's >> >> documented in the handbook for starters. If it was taken out and >> >> replaced with another MTA then there would be complaints that >> >> sendmail has been taken out or "replacement MTA" is the "wrong >> >> one". >> > >> > Well .. someday UFS will be replaced by ZFS .. >> >> Maybe. That's still quite a way out, and who knows what else will >> come along in the meantime? > > HammerFS? > A heavily armed Oracle lawyers squad team with 9mm. and willing to use > them without a second thught?? > Just a joke =P Seriously, though, something new could come up. Probably with Apple or Google support. >> > .. and one day Perl >> > just dissapeard from base .. yet the worl kept turning, and even >> > better .. no one got hurt ;) >> >> I remember quite a bit of pain. It was worth it, because maintaining >> perl in the base was causing pain on an ongoing basis, but it was a >> problem for users in a number of different ways. > > See what I mean? > It actually paid off for most people .. but do you remember all the > complaining that went on back then? > What makes it any different now? > > And what would you say ... removing perl was more daunting that > replacing Senmail? Honest question. Perl was harder. No question. But it also had clear benefits, and people willing to put in the work to make it happen. I would be just fine with replacing sendmail in the base system with postfix, but there's nobody lining up to do the work the way there was five years ago for removing perl. I would actually be just as happy to see no MTA in the base system, but the installer work to keep that from violating the Principle Of Least Astonishment is even more tricky than replacing sendmail with something else. >> > in the other hand, those not complaining, will probably be really >> > happy .. so ... >> >> So you keep saying, but I don't think there's any solid evidence. >> Your experience is one thing, but although I consider myself a >> postfix user, I have machines that run sendmail because it just >> worked for their purpose with no configuration at all. > > Didn't the same thing happen when perl was removed? > Some complaining, some cheering ... Everyone knew why it was necessary. Well, probably not "everyone," but those of us who'd been upgrading machines through several FreeBSD versions knew that perl was breaking regularly. That simply isn't the case with sendmail. For a server, it's a lot harder to configure than (anything else), but that's completely different from the active breakage that perl went through with every minor release of perl. >> > Doesn't ZFS mean that you have to reconfigure (or even reinstall) >> > your system? >> >> No. Your old configuration works just fine if you still want to keep >> using it. You won't get the advantages of ZFS, but having it in >> FreeBSD didn't bre > > Oh, sorry Lowell, I mean you had to reconfigure (or even reinstall) if > you want to make use of it :) > Sorry, I should've been more clear about that. Sure. But this isn't the case. You're talking about removing something that people are already using, not adding something that people will have to make major changes to start using in the future. So it does not in any way help your argument. -- Lowell Gilbert, embedded/networking software engineer, Boston area http://be-well.ilk.org/~lowell/ _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Oliver Fromme :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Lowell Gilbert wrote: > Gonzalo Nemmi <gnemmi@...> writes: > > On Tuesday 27 October 2009 7:22:22 pm Lowell Gilbert wrote: > > > Gonzalo Nemmi <gnemmi@...> writes: > > > > Well .. someday UFS will be replaced by ZFS .. I don't see a reason why UFS should be removed anytime soon. If that happens, then that would be in a very distant future when nobody is using UFS anymore (and I'm not talking about FreeBSD only). > > And what would you say ... removing perl was more daunting that > > replacing Senmail? Honest question. > > Perl was harder. No question. Replacing sendmail is completely different from removing perl, both technically and historically. > I would actually be just as happy to see no MTA in the base system, > but the installer work to keep that from violating the Principle Of > Least Astonishment is even more tricky than replacing sendmail with > something else. There needs to be at least an LDA in the base system, unless you don't care about cron jobs and other things working correctly. I think many users do care. It doesn't have to be a fully-featured MTA, though, but at least it should be capable of queueing, remote delivery, support for aliases, forwarding and a few other things. Sendmail currently does all of that on FreeBSD out of the box with zero configuration efforts, just one line in rc.conf (sendmail_enable="NO") which will start up the queue daemon, listen for local mails and deliver them. If someone wants to replace sendmail with postfix (or any other MTA; there are quite a few to chose from), it must be made sure that there is no change from a users point of view, i.e. the above rc.conf line should continue to work just the same way. But then again, if there is no user- visible change, then why bother to change anything at all? Those who need to run a "real" mail server that accepts remote mail (probably a small minority) can install their favourite-MTA-of-the-day from the ports collection. Oh, by the way, I would like the bike shed painted orange. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "[...] one observation we can make here is that Python makes an excellent pseudocoding language, with the wonderful attribute that it can actually be executed." -- Bruce Eckel _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Randi Harper-3 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message MAKE THE PAIN STOP. Seriously, read back in the friggin' mailing list archives. None of y'all are going to say anything that hasn't been said before. Or don't, and just prove how valuable your time isn't by wasting it arguing about something that everyone else is just rolling their eyes at and ignoring, as they've seen it all before. This bikeshed is old and tired. I don't want to paint it. I want to drown it in lighter fluid and set it on fire. -- randi _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Dillon Kass :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message QMAIL SHOULD BE IN THE BASE SYSTEM INSTEAD!!!!!! lololololololololol _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Astrodog :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message I would just like to point out that no one has considered the possibility of, perhaps, painting the bikeshed with a pattern using multiple colors, or perhaps even varying grades of reflective paint. This would make it significantly more pleasing to the eye... and with shiny paint, we can also attract significantly more users. --- Harrison _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Brett Glass :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message At 02:50 AM 10/30/2009, Randi Harper wrote: >This bikeshed is old and tired. I don't want to paint it. I want to drown it >in lighter fluid and set it on fire. I've never seen a bike shed. Unless perhaps it had a furry seat cover. --Brett Glass _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."

	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Lowell Gilbert :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Green! No, no, Blue! AAaaaagggghhhh -- Lowell Gilbert, embedded/networking software engineer, Boston area http://be-well.ilk.org/~lowell/ _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Robert-296 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:54:44 -0400 Lowell Gilbert <freebsd-questions-local@...> wrote: > Green! No, no, Blue! AAaaaagggghhhh > I think it should be disque shaped. _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Kevin Kinsey :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: > On Tuesday 27 October 2009 7:22:22 pm Lowell Gilbert wrote: >> I probably should move this bikeshed to freebsd-chat... I'd like the bikeshed blue, please. Also, since Sendmail has reached maturity, let's baptize it now instead of during infancy, and add a knob FEATURE(require_calvinism). Also, I'm attending the annual meeting of my Sendmail Users Anonymous Group (SMAUG) tomorrow (it's annual because there are SO FEW of us we had to scour the world to find a quorum and it makes economic sense to to meet just once a year), where I'll ask Pope Eric to call up troops to end this holy war on this list once and for all. I'm sharpening blades in the shop even as I write this! DEUS VULT!!!! 'Nuff ... please? Kevin Kinsey _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Lowell Gilbert :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Gonzalo Nemmi <gnemmi@...> writes: > On Tuesday 27 October 2009 7:22:22 pm Lowell Gilbert wrote: >> I probably should move this bikeshed to freebsd-chat... And now I actually am... >> Gonzalo Nemmi <gnemmi@...> writes: >> > On Tuesday 27 October 2009 6:20:35 pm Frank Shute wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 09:24:58PM +0200, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >> >> I can imagine that a lot of people do use sendmail - it's >> >> documented in the handbook for starters. If it was taken out and >> >> replaced with another MTA then there would be complaints that >> >> sendmail has been taken out or "replacement MTA" is the "wrong >> >> one". >> > >> > Well .. someday UFS will be replaced by ZFS .. >> >> Maybe. That's still quite a way out, and who knows what else will >> come along in the meantime? > > HammerFS? > A heavily armed Oracle lawyers squad team with 9mm. and willing to use > them without a second thught?? > Just a joke =P Seriously, though, something new could come up. Probably with Apple or Google support. >> > .. and one day Perl >> > just dissapeard from base .. yet the worl kept turning, and even >> > better .. no one got hurt ;) >> >> I remember quite a bit of pain. It was worth it, because maintaining >> perl in the base was causing pain on an ongoing basis, but it was a >> problem for users in a number of different ways. > > See what I mean? > It actually paid off for most people .. but do you remember all the > complaining that went on back then? > What makes it any different now? > > And what would you say ... removing perl was more daunting that > replacing Senmail? Honest question. Perl was harder. No question. But it also had clear benefits, and people willing to put in the work to make it happen. I would be just fine with replacing sendmail in the base system with postfix, but there's nobody lining up to do the work the way there was five years ago for removing perl. I would actually be just as happy to see no MTA in the base system, but the installer work to keep that from violating the Principle Of Least Astonishment is even more tricky than replacing sendmail with something else. >> > in the other hand, those not complaining, will probably be really >> > happy .. so ... >> >> So you keep saying, but I don't think there's any solid evidence. >> Your experience is one thing, but although I consider myself a >> postfix user, I have machines that run sendmail because it just >> worked for their purpose with no configuration at all. > > Didn't the same thing happen when perl was removed? > Some complaining, some cheering ... Everyone knew why it was necessary. Well, probably not "everyone," but those of us who'd been upgrading machines through several FreeBSD versions knew that perl was breaking regularly. That simply isn't the case with sendmail. For a server, it's a lot harder to configure than (anything else), but that's completely different from the active breakage that perl went through with every minor release of perl. >> > Doesn't ZFS mean that you have to reconfigure (or even reinstall) >> > your system? >> >> No. Your old configuration works just fine if you still want to keep >> using it. You won't get the advantages of ZFS, but having it in >> FreeBSD didn't bre > > Oh, sorry Lowell, I mean you had to reconfigure (or even reinstall) if > you want to make use of it :) > Sorry, I should've been more clear about that. Sure. But this isn't the case. You're talking about removing something that people are already using, not adding something that people will have to make major changes to start using in the future. So it does not in any way help your argument. -- Lowell Gilbert, embedded/networking software engineer, Boston area http://be-well.ilk.org/~lowell/ _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Oliver Fromme :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Lowell Gilbert wrote: > Gonzalo Nemmi <gnemmi@...> writes: > > On Tuesday 27 October 2009 7:22:22 pm Lowell Gilbert wrote: > > > Gonzalo Nemmi <gnemmi@...> writes: > > > > Well .. someday UFS will be replaced by ZFS .. I don't see a reason why UFS should be removed anytime soon. If that happens, then that would be in a very distant future when nobody is using UFS anymore (and I'm not talking about FreeBSD only). > > And what would you say ... removing perl was more daunting that > > replacing Senmail? Honest question. > > Perl was harder. No question. Replacing sendmail is completely different from removing perl, both technically and historically. > I would actually be just as happy to see no MTA in the base system, > but the installer work to keep that from violating the Principle Of > Least Astonishment is even more tricky than replacing sendmail with > something else. There needs to be at least an LDA in the base system, unless you don't care about cron jobs and other things working correctly. I think many users do care. It doesn't have to be a fully-featured MTA, though, but at least it should be capable of queueing, remote delivery, support for aliases, forwarding and a few other things. Sendmail currently does all of that on FreeBSD out of the box with zero configuration efforts, just one line in rc.conf (sendmail_enable="NO") which will start up the queue daemon, listen for local mails and deliver them. If someone wants to replace sendmail with postfix (or any other MTA; there are quite a few to chose from), it must be made sure that there is no change from a users point of view, i.e. the above rc.conf line should continue to work just the same way. But then again, if there is no user- visible change, then why bother to change anything at all? Those who need to run a "real" mail server that accepts remote mail (probably a small minority) can install their favourite-MTA-of-the-day from the ports collection. Oh, by the way, I would like the bike shed painted orange. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "[...] one observation we can make here is that Python makes an excellent pseudocoding language, with the wonderful attribute that it can actually be executed." -- Bruce Eckel _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Randi Harper-3 :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message MAKE THE PAIN STOP. Seriously, read back in the friggin' mailing list archives. None of y'all are going to say anything that hasn't been said before. Or don't, and just prove how valuable your time isn't by wasting it arguing about something that everyone else is just rolling their eyes at and ignoring, as they've seen it all before. This bikeshed is old and tired. I don't want to paint it. I want to drown it in lighter fluid and set it on fire. -- randi _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Dillon Kass :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message QMAIL SHOULD BE IN THE BASE SYSTEM INSTEAD!!!!!! lololololololololol _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Astrodog :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message I would just like to point out that no one has considered the possibility of, perhaps, painting the bikeshed with a pattern using multiple colors, or perhaps even varying grades of reflective paint. This would make it significantly more pleasing to the eye... and with shiny paint, we can also attract significantly more users. --- Harrison _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: Why is sendmail is part of the system and not a package? by Brett Glass :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message At 02:50 AM 10/30/2009, Randi Harper wrote: >This bikeshed is old and tired. I don't want to paint it. I want to drown it >in lighter fluid and set it on fire. I've never seen a bike shed. Unless perhaps it had a furry seat cover. --Brett Glass _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@..."