Re: Why people not using mod_perl

[Jeff Pang-4]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:38:11 +0000
modperl[at]att.net wrote:

> 3) capacity/scalable
>
> mod_perl is very scalable --- I mean, one can properly
> config a single server to handle dynamic content for
> 200K daily unique IPs. PHP may end up with just 100K
> and servlet ends up at around 50K.
>

I'm just curious, is this performance data still true in today?
We have a new project building a website for a goverment which should  
handle lots of transportation data, servlet and modperl are two  
choices. So I googled and found this old message.

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/modperl/advocacy/75311

[Perrin Harkins-3]

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 4:52 AM, Jeff Pang <pangj@...> wrote:
> I'm just curious, is this performance data still true in today?
> We have a new project building a website for a goverment which should handle
> lots of transportation data, servlet and modperl are two choices.

I don't know what the source of that data was.  However, mod_perl is
basically just Perl, and Perl is very fast.  In most of the language
benchmarks I've seen, Perl comes out a little ahead of PHP and
somewhat behind Java.  In real-world websites though, Perl often ends
up being faster than Java because of slow Java web frameworks and the
overly-abstract designs they encourage.

You can certainly succeed at building large websites with either Perl
or Java.  I'd suggest you consider who will be doing the work and what
the expenses will be.  If you decide to use Java, go with open source.
 The commercial frameworks are slow and not worth the price.

- Perrin

[Igor Chudov-3]

My site algebra.com is about 80,000 lines of mod_perl code.

I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown perl modules, about five years ago.
It uses a database, image generation modules, a big mathematical engine that I wrote (that "shows work", unlike popular third party packages), etc.

All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy due to math formulae.

I can say two things:

1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or so

2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still very maintainable and understandable (to me).

If I was to make a choice again, I would go with mod_perl again. With Perl, I can "stand on the shoulders of giants" like Lincoln etc, and use the brilliant stuff they provided to serve my users.

i

[Fred Moyer]

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Igor Chudov <ichudov@...> wrote:

> My site algebra.com is about 80,000 lines of mod_perl code.
>
> I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown perl modules,
> about five years ago.
> It uses a database, image generation modules, a big mathematical engine that
> I wrote (that "shows work", unlike popular third party packages), etc.
>
> All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy due to math
> formulae.
>
> I can say two things:
>
> 1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or so

It is fast, just visited it.  However, I think you could get a faster
initial page load by compressing the html returned to the client using
mod_deflate.  The main page request was 137 milliseconds and you could
probably drop that by 30-50% with gzipping the output.

Nice work!

> 2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still very maintainable
> and understandable (to me).
>
> If I was to make a choice again, I would go with mod_perl again. With Perl,
> I can "stand on the shoulders of giants" like Lincoln etc, and use the
> brilliant stuff they provided to serve my users.

Yes, that's why I use mod_perl.  The core developers on the Apache
Httpd, and mod_perl core are world class.

[Phil Carmody]

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov <ichudov@...> wrote:

> My site algebra.com is about 80,000
> lines of mod_perl code.
>
> I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown
> perl modules, about five years ago.
> It uses a database, image generation modules, a big
> mathematical engine that I wrote (that "shows
> work", unlike popular third party packages), etc.
>
>
> All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy
> due to math formulae.
>
> I can say two things:
>
> 1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or
> so
>
> 2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still
> very maintainable and understandable (to me).

In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output?

e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia

  (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm)

faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε

an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N

Pollard's p − 1 algorithm

Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417.

Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313.

Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored”

v • d • e

AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer · Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division

Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization

CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's

Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli



Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up.

Phil

[Phil Carmody]

It gets worse:
"""
Factor any number

Find all factors of [305550321722429173]

Solution by Factor any number
305550321722429173 is NOT a prime number: 305550321722429173 = 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 3 * 3 * 3 * 3 * 199 * 293 * 252718517
Work Shown

305550321722429173 is divisible by 2: 305550321722429173 = 1.52775160861215e+17 * 2.
1.52775160861215e+17 is divisible by 2: 1.52775160861215e+17 = 7.63875804306073e+16 * 2.
7.63875804306073e+16 is divisible by 2: 7.63875804306073e+16 = 3.81937902153036e+16 * 2.
3.81937902153036e+16 is divisible by 2: 3.81937902153036e+16 = 1.90968951076518e+16 * 2.
1.90968951076518e+16 is divisible by 2: 1.90968951076518e+16 = 9.54844755382591e+15 * 2.
9.54844755382591e+15 is divisible by 2: 9.54844755382591e+15 = 4.77422377691296e+15 * 2.
4.77422377691296e+15 is divisible by 2: 4.77422377691296e+15 = 2.38711188845648e+15 * 2.
2.38711188845648e+15 is divisible by 2: 2.38711188845648e+15 = 1.19355594422824e+15 * 2.
1.19355594422824e+15 is divisible by 3: 1.19355594422824e+15 = 397851981409413 * 3.
397851981409413 is divisible by 3: 397851981409413 = 132617327136471 * 3.
132617327136471 is divisible by 3: 132617327136471 = 44205775712157 * 3.
44205775712157 is divisible by 3: 44205775712157 = 14735258570719 * 3.
14735258570719 is divisible by 199: 14735258570719 = 74046525481 * 199.
74046525481 is divisible by 293: 74046525481 = 252718517 * 293.
252718517 is not divisible by anything.
"""



     

[Brad Van Sickle]

This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications.  I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages.

I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based.

The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are:

1) Speed - I don't buy this at all
2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense.  Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it.  All of that is inherent in Java.  It also helps that Java has OO built in. 
3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true.
4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid
5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 
6) Support

A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here*  which is a total shame.  I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on.  But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point.   Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example?

Phil Carmody wrote:

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichudov@... wrote:
  

My site algebra.com is about 80,000
lines of mod_perl code.

I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown
perl modules, about five years ago. 
It uses a database, image generation modules, a big
mathematical engine that I wrote (that "shows
work", unlike popular third party packages), etc. 


All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy
due to math formulae. 

I can say two things: 

1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or
so

2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still
very maintainable and understandable (to me). 
    

In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output?

e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia

  (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm)

faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε

an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N

Pollard's p − 1 algorithm

Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417.

Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313.

Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored” 

v • d • e

AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer · Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division

Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization

CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's

Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli



Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up.

Phil




      
  

[Jenn G.]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:32 AM, Perrin Harkins <pharkins@...> wrote:

>
> I don't know what the source of that data was.  However, mod_perl is
> basically just Perl, and Perl is very fast.


I think the more exact statement should be, mod_perl is compiled perl,
mod_perl is very fast.
But perl CGI...I must say it's very slow.

Jenn.

[Perrin Harkins-3]

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Jenn G. <practicalperl@...> wrote:
> I think the more exact statement should be, mod_perl is compiled perl,
> mod_perl is very fast.
> But perl CGI...I must say it's very slow.

Well, you can say CGI is slow, but Perl CGI is very fast compared to
the alternatives.  Have you ever tried Java CGI?  Or PHP CGI?  They're
not fast.

Also, I don't like to tell people that mod_perl is "compiled" because
it's really no more compiled than any other perl script.  If you want
to be precise, you could say mod_perl is a persistent daemon for
running perl code, just like servlets are a persistent daemon for
running Java.

- Perrin

[Jenn G.]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Perrin Harkins <pharkins@...> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Jenn G. <practicalperl@...> wrote:
>> I think the more exact statement should be, mod_perl is compiled perl,
>> mod_perl is very fast.
>> But perl CGI...I must say it's very slow.
>
> Well, you can say CGI is slow, but Perl CGI is very fast compared to
> the alternatives.  Have you ever tried Java CGI?  Or PHP CGI?  They're
> not fast.

but nobody run Java or PHP as CGI.
the only thing I heard is somebody run php as fastcgi under lighttpd.

>
> Also, I don't like to tell people that mod_perl is "compiled" because
> it's really no more compiled than any other perl script.

mod_perl loads and compiles perl scripts only once, but CGI loads and
compiles them every time for each request.
Am I right? thanks.

[Jeff Nokes]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason?

BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5).  I may substitute the phrase "More convenient" for "Easier" in #3.  I would also add ...

   #7)  How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology?

I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it.  Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc.  In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay).

---

From: Brad Van Sickle <bvs7085@...>
To: mod_perl list <modperl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl



This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications.  I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages.

I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based.

The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are:

1) Speed - I don't buy this at all
2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense.  Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it.  All of that is inherent in Java.  It also helps that Java has OO built in. 
3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true.
4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid
5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 
6) Support

A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here*  which is a total shame.  I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on.  But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point.   Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example?

Phil Carmody wrote:

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichudov@... wrote:
  

My site algebra.com is about 80,000
lines of mod_perl code.

I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown
perl modules, about five years ago. 
It uses a database, image generation modules, a big
mathematical engine that I wrote (that "shows
work", unlike popular third party packages), etc. 


All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy
due to math formulae. 

I can say two things: 

1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or
so

2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still
very maintainable and understandable (to me). 
    

In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output?

e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia

  (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm)

faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε

an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N

Pollard's p − 1 algorithm

Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417.

Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313.

Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored†

v • d • e

AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer ·
 Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division

Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization

CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's

Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli



Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up.

Phil




      
  

[Perrin Harkins-3]

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Jenn G. <practicalperl@...> wrote:
> but nobody run Java or PHP as CGI.
> the only thing I heard is somebody run php as fastcgi under lighttpd.

Some cheap ISPs run PHP as CGI for security reasons.  My point is, it
doesn't make any difference if Perl is slow when you run it as CGI,
since you don't need to run it as CGI any more than you need to run
Java that way.

> mod_perl loads and compiles perl scripts only once, but CGI loads and
> compiles them every time for each request.
> Am I right?

That's right.  In both cases the perl code is compiled, but with
mod_perl the perl interpreter is kept in memory so it doesn't need to
recompile it each time.

- Perrin

[Steven Siebert]

I would also add, in addition to the frameworks, the availability of tools such as Netbeans and Eclipse IDE's are unmatched in the perl domain.  These IDE's provide many high-level conveniences for enterprise developers, most notably in the realm of SOA (such as graphical building of BPEL and CEP).

After nearly 10 years building and maintaining a critical government system, we are sadly migrating away from mod_perl to a J2EE based solution due to the success and growth of our mod_perl-based system.  mod_perl and MySQL has served as well when we were taking on medium-to-large loads...however, as we are growing to a distributed (multi-site, multi-node) system, with tie-ins to numerous internal and external business systems across the enterprise, with development partners working at distributed factories...tools such as Netbeans and it's tight integration with Glassfish, SVN, and Hudson make building at this level a lot more manageable.  I found that mod_perl for large-scale web applications works great, and if necessary horizontal scaling is achievable to sustain even more load.  However, when dealing with complex SOA architectures, and the management of business workflows...the framework support and tools to accomplish this just aren't there in perl.

Add to this Jeff's comment on the availability of high caliber perl engineers...we are almost forced to make this decision.

We will continue to use mod_perl for other uses, such as our custom SCM/ALM system we built over the years...but the main product is migrating.

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...> wrote:

Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason?

BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5).  I may substitute the phrase "More convenient" for "Easier" in #3.  I would also add ...

   #7)  How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology?

I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it.  Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc.  In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay).

---

From: Brad Van Sickle <bvs7085@...>
To: mod_perl list <modperl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications.  I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages.

I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based.

The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are:

1) Speed - I don't buy this at all
2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense.  Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it.  All of that is inherent in Java.  It also helps that Java has OO built in. 
3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true.
4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid
5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 
6) Support

A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here*  which is a total shame.  I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on.  But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point.   Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example?

Phil Carmody wrote:

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichudov@... wrote:
  

My site algebra.com is about 80,000
lines of mod_perl code.

I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown
perl modules, about five years ago. 


It uses a database, image generation modules, a big
mathematical engine that I wrote (that "shows
work", unlike popular third party packages), etc. 


All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy


due to math formulae. 

I can say two things: 

1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or
so

2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still
very maintainable and understandable (to me). 


    

In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output?

e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia



  (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm)

faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε

an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N

Pollard's p − 1 algorithm

Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417.



Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313.

Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored†



v • d • e

AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer ·
 Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division

Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization



CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's

Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli





Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up.

Phil




      
  

[Igor Chudov-3]

You must have use my module Net::eBay, at some point, right?

I wrote Net::eBay about 3 years ago.

Igor

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...> wrote:

Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason?

BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5).  I may substitute the phrase "More convenient" for "Easier" in #3.  I would also add ...

   #7)  How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology?

I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it.  Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc.  In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay).

---

From: Brad Van Sickle <bvs7085@...>
To: mod_perl list <modperl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications.  I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages.

I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based.

The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are:

1) Speed - I don't buy this at all
2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense.  Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it.  All of that is inherent in Java.  It also helps that Java has OO built in. 
3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true.
4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid
5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 
6) Support

A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here*  which is a total shame.  I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on.  But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point.   Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example?

Phil Carmody wrote:

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichudov@... wrote:
  

My site algebra.com is about 80,000
lines of mod_perl code.

I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown
perl modules, about five years ago. 

It uses a database, image generation modules, a big
mathematical engine that I wrote (that "shows
work", unlike popular third party packages), etc. 


All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy

due to math formulae. 

I can say two things: 

1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or
so

2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still
very maintainable and understandable (to me). 

    

In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output?

e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia


  (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm)

faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε

an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N

Pollard's p − 1 algorithm

Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417.


Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313.

Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored†


v • d • e

AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer ·
 Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division

Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization


CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's

Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli




Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up.

Phil




      
  

[Jeff Peng-8]

from what you all stated, does it mean mod_perl is really outmoded comparing to Java?
Here Java programmer is cheaper than mod_perl developer.
But if mp can get better performance, we may consider it as first choice.

Regards,
Jeff.

[Jeff Nokes]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Well, actually Igor, we ended up writing eBay::API.  We needed something that was able to extend many more web services that are internal-use only, that the public doesn't have access to.  The fact that eBay web service data-types are probably the most complex out there, and they change often, we had to come up with a way to easily incorporate those changes by slurping up a giant WSDL, and auto-generating all the classes and data types, etc.

But we do thank you for writing that.  I knew of many API clients at the time that absolutely loved Net::eBay!  In fact, I think at the time, the #2 API client (in listings) was perl-based, and using it.

Cheers,
- Jeff

---

From: Igor Chudov <ichudov@...>
To: Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...>
Cc: Brad Van Sickle <bvs7085@...>; mod_perl list <modperl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:26:53 PM
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

You must have use my module Net::eBay, at some point, right?

I wrote Net::eBay about 3 years ago.

Igor

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...> wrote:

Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason?

BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5).  I may substitute the phrase "More convenient" for "Easier" in #3.  I would also add ...

   #7)  How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology?

I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it.  Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc.  In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay).

---

From: Brad Van Sickle <bvs7085@...>
To: mod_perl list <modperl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications.  I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages.

I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based.

The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are:

1) Speed - I don't buy this at all
2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense.  Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it.  All of that is inherent in Java.  It also helps that Java has OO built in. 
3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true.
4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid
5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 
6) Support

A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here*  which is a total shame.  I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on.  But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point.   Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example?

Phil Carmody wrote:

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichudov@... wrote:
  

My site algebra.com is about 80,000
lines of mod_perl code.

I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown
perl modules, about five years ago. 

It uses a database, image generation modules, a big
mathematical engine that I wrote (that "shows
work", unlike popular third party packages), etc. 


All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy

due to math formulae. 

I can say two things: 

1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or
so

2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still
very maintainable and understandable (to me). 

    

In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output?

e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia


  (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm)

faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε

an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N

Pollard's p − 1 algorithm

Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417.


Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313.

Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored†


v • d • e

AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer ·
 Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division

Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization


CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's

Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli




Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up.

Phil




      
  

[Igor Chudov-3]

Interesting. I did not even know about that #2 guy.

What sort of hardware and OS are you running there?

Igor

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...> wrote:

Well, actually Igor, we ended up writing eBay::API.  We needed something that was able to extend many more web services that are internal-use only, that the public doesn't have access to.  The fact that eBay web service data-types are probably the most complex out there, and they change often, we had to come up with a way to easily incorporate those changes by slurping up a giant WSDL, and auto-generating all the classes and data types, etc.

But we do thank you for writing that.  I knew of many API clients at the time that absolutely loved Net::eBay!  In fact, I think at the time, the #2 API client (in listings) was perl-based, and using it.

Cheers,
- Jeff

---

From: Igor Chudov <ichudov@...>
To: Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...>
Cc: Brad Van Sickle <bvs7085@...>; mod_perl list <modperl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:26:53 PM

Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

You must have use my module Net::eBay, at some point, right?

I wrote Net::eBay about 3 years ago.

Igor

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...> wrote:

Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason?

BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5).  I may substitute the phrase "More convenient" for "Easier" in #3.  I would also add ...

   #7)  How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology?

I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it.  Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc.  In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay).

---

From: Brad Van Sickle <bvs7085@...>
To: mod_perl list <modperl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications.  I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages.

I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based.

The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are:

1) Speed - I don't buy this at all
2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense.  Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it.  All of that is inherent in Java.  It also helps that Java has OO built in. 
3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true.
4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid
5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 
6) Support

A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here*  which is a total shame.  I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on.  But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point.   Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example?

Phil Carmody wrote:

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichudov@... wrote:
  

My site algebra.com is about 80,000
lines of mod_perl code.

I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown
perl modules, about five years ago. 


It uses a database, image generation modules, a big
mathematical engine that I wrote (that "shows
work", unlike popular third party packages), etc. 


All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy


due to math formulae. 

I can say two things: 

1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or
so

2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still
very maintainable and understandable (to me). 


    

In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output?

e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia



  (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm)

faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε

an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N

Pollard's p − 1 algorithm

Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417.



Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313.

Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored†



v • d • e

AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer ·
 Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division


Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization


CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's

Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli





Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up.

Phil




      
  

[Jeff Nokes]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

I left eBay a little over a year ago.  When I was there, we were running on 32-bit, dual CPU HP blades, RHEL 4 for my platform.  For the main Java platform, they were running 32-bit and 64-bit blades, on a flavor of Windows server.

---

From: Igor Chudov <ichudov@...>
To: Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...>
Cc: mod_perl list <modperl@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:52:38 AM
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

Interesting. I did not even know about that #2 guy.

What sort of hardware and OS are you running there?

Igor

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...> wrote:

Well, actually Igor, we ended up writing eBay::API.  We needed something that was able to extend many more web services that are internal-use only, that the public doesn't have access to.  The fact that eBay web service data-types are probably the most complex out there, and they change often, we had to come up with a way to easily incorporate those changes by slurping up a giant WSDL, and auto-generating all the classes and data types, etc.

But we do thank you for writing that.  I knew of many API clients at the time that absolutely loved Net::eBay!  In fact, I think at the time, the #2 API client (in listings) was perl-based, and using it.

Cheers,
- Jeff

---

From: Igor Chudov <ichudov@...>
To: Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...>
Cc: Brad Van Sickle <bvs7085@...>; mod_perl list <modperl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:26:53 PM

Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

You must have use my module Net::eBay, at some point, right?

I wrote Net::eBay about 3 years ago.

Igor

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...> wrote:

Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason?

BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5).  I may substitute the phrase "More convenient" for "Easier" in #3.  I would also add ...

   #7)  How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology?

I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it.  Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc.  In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay).

---

From: Brad Van Sickle <bvs7085@...>
To: mod_perl list <modperl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications.  I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages.

I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based.

The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are:

1) Speed - I don't buy this at all
2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense.  Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it.  All of that is inherent in Java.  It also helps that Java has OO built in. 
3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true.
4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid
5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 
6) Support

A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here*  which is a total shame.  I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on.  But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point.   Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example?

Phil Carmody wrote:

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichudov@... wrote:
  

My site algebra.com is about 80,000
lines of mod_perl code.

I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown
perl modules, about five years ago. 


It uses a database, image generation modules, a big
mathematical engine that I wrote (that "shows
work", unlike popular third party packages), etc. 


All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy


due to math formulae. 

I can say two things: 

1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or
so

2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still
very maintainable and understandable (to me). 


    

In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output?

e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia



  (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm)

faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε

an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N

Pollard's p − 1 algorithm

Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417.



Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313.

Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored†



v • d • e

AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer ·
 Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division


Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization


CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's

Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli





Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up.

Phil




      
  

[Ihnen, David]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Rather than develop and contribute the community the ideas used in integrating (IDE-app server-version store-job management) for the perl environment… you stop using perl for that.

 

This is *exactly* why people are not using mod_perl – perl lacks the investment given to these big projects that people ARE investing in with the java technology.

 

There is nothing magical about java applied to this integration – perl could it it as well (or better, given lessons learned from the earlier take).

 

Sorry if I sound a bit bitter, but this lack of investment in my favored technology frustrates me something fierce.  You and your business/company may have the clout after 10 years of building large critical systems to have the resources to invest in actually DOING this, and you would rather move to java.

 

(not that it’s the only reason to move to java, but it sounds like it’s the fallover difference)

 

Sigh.

 

David

 

 

From: Steven Siebert [mailto:smsiebe@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 8:15 PM
To: Jeff Nokes
Cc: Brad Van Sickle; mod_perl list
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

 

I would also add, in addition to the frameworks, the availability of tools such as Netbeans and Eclipse IDE's are unmatched in the perl domain.  These IDE's provide many high-level conveniences for enterprise developers, most notably in the realm of SOA (such as graphical building of BPEL and CEP).

After nearly 10 years building and maintaining a critical government system, we are sadly migrating away from mod_perl to a J2EE based solution due to the success and growth of our mod_perl-based system.  mod_perl and MySQL has served as well when we were taking on medium-to-large loads...however, as we are growing to a distributed (multi-site, multi-node) system, with tie-ins to numerous internal and external business systems across the enterprise, with development partners working at distributed factories...tools such as Netbeans and it's tight integration with Glassfish, SVN, and Hudson make building at this level a lot more manageable.  I found that mod_perl for large-scale web applications works great, and if necessary horizontal scaling is achievable to sustain even more load.  However, when dealing with complex SOA architectures, and the management of business workflows...the framework support and tools to accomplish this just aren't there in perl.

Add to this Jeff's comment on the availability of high caliber perl engineers...we are almost forced to make this decision.

We will continue to use mod_perl for other uses, such as our custom SCM/ALM system we built over the years...but the main product is migrating.

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Jeff Nokes <jeff_nokes@...> wrote:

Doesn't Amazon run mod_perl/Mason?

BTW, I agree with most of your points (would debate #4,5).  I may substitute the phrase "More convenient" for "Easier" in #3.  I would also add ...

   #7)  How many engineers are available to hire that know or want to work with said technology?

I built a great platform at eBay on mod_perl/Mason that handled eBay-size traffic; we ran 6 eBay sites on it.  Now it is used for specialty e-commerce solutions like worldofgood.ebay.com, global.ebay.com (cross-border trade), dealfinder.ebay.com, etc.  In fact, on the same hardware, the main eBay Java app would support ~6 threads per box; the mod_perl platform supported ~60 (prefork), significant CapEx and power savings (which adds up at a place like eBay).

 

---

From: Brad Van Sickle <bvs7085@...>
To: mod_perl list <modperl@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 3:31:30 PM
Subject: Re: Why people not using mod_perl

This is a mod_perl list, so I would expect to see Perl championed pretty heavily, but Java, .net and there ilk are undoubtedly *the* choice for large web applications.  I'd like to get into some discussion as to why almost all *large* sites choose these languages.

I don't have any experience developing a large application in Java, although I do have a lot of experience working on the operations side of a large web application that is Java based.

The reasons I generally hear for choosing Java over mod_perl are:

1) Speed - I don't buy this at all
2) Maintainability - I think this makes sense.  Perl can be pretty easy to maintain if you stick a good framework around it, but you have to seek out that framework and YOU are responsible for adhereing to it.  All of that is inherent in Java.  It also helps that Java has OO built in. 
3) Easier to package and build/move code - In my experience this is true.
4) Advantages to be gained from running on an actually application server - Also valid
5) Compatible enterprise class middleware - Also true, Java plugs into more truly enterprise level suff than Perl does. (security frameworks, etc... ) 
6) Support

A lot of the industry seems look at Perl as obsolete technology that has been replaced by *insert hot new technology of the week here*  which is a total shame.  I've worked with a lot of technologies and I think Perl is a great choice for small/medium websites and webapps, which is probably what most of us work on.  But I'm very interested to know at what point (if any) a site/app grows too large or too complex for mod_perl and what defines that turning point.   Could Amazon run on mod_perl for example?

Phil Carmody wrote:

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, Igor Chudov ichudov@... wrote:

  

My site algebra.com is about 80,000

lines of mod_perl code.



I wrote a relatively large framework, with many homegrown

perl modules, about five years ago. 

It uses a database, image generation modules, a big

mathematical engine that I wrote (that "shows

work", unlike popular third party packages), etc. 





All pages of my site are dynamic and it is very image heavy

due to math formulae. 



I can say two things: 



1) It is relatively fast, serving pages in 0.1 seconds or

so



2) Despite the quantity of code, and its age, it is still

very maintainable and understandable (to me). 

In that case, would you like to fix its mangled output?



e.g. http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/divisibility/Prime_factorization_algorithm.wikipedia

  (Redirected from Prime factorization algorithm)



faster than O((1+ε)b) for all positive ε



an integer M with 1 ≤ M ≤ N



Pollard's p − 1 algorithm



Section 4.5.4: Factoring into Primes, pp. 379–417.

Chapter 5: Exponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 191–226. Chapter 6: Subexponential Factoring Algorithms, pp. 227–284. Section 7.4: Elliptic curve method, pp. 301–313.



Eric W. Weisstein, “RSA-640 Factored†

v • d • e



AKS · APR · Ballie–PSW · ECPP · Fermat · Lucas · Lucas–Lehmer ·

 Lucas–Lehmer–Riesel · Proth's theorem · Pépin's · Solovay–Strassen · Miller–Rabin · Trial division



Sieve of Atkin · Sieve of Eratosthenes · Sieve of Sundaram · Wheel factorization

CFRAC · Dixon's · ECM · Euler's · Pollard's rho · P − 1 · P + 1 · QS · GNFS · SNFS · rational sieve · Fermat's · Shanks' square forms · Trial division · Shor's



Ancient Egyptian multiplication · Aryabhata · Binary GCD · Chakravala · Euclidean · Extended Euclidean · integer relation algorithm · integer square root · Modular exponentiation · Schoof's · Shanks-Tonelli

Looks like you've got utf8 and iso8859-1 messed up.



Phil









      

  

 

[Igor Chudov-3]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Ihnen, David <dihnen@...> wrote:

Rather than develop and contribute the community the ideas used in integrating (IDE-app server-version store-job management) for the perl environment… you stop using perl for that.

This is *exactly* why people are not using mod_perl – perl lacks the investment given to these big projects that people ARE investing in with the java technology.

People are using mod_perl, just not as much as some of us would like.

I am now satisfied that mod_perl is a very viable system with devoted following.

i